I love you but I don't like you

[andyg99]

Andy,

Did you read post 264 that I wrote for you?? :laugh:

 

yes, that joke was hilarious, I told it several times already!

[itllgetbetter]

If this whole M thing doesn't work out, well, I have 3 weeks vacation booked just after Christmas (had booked a trip with H which was cancelled following the separation) - might I suggeste a LS convention (perhaps at a spa in Europe as one psychologist previously suggested to me as per post #27 - just kidding re the spa), somewhere warm and sunny - seriously - not for 3 weeks, maybe a week????? Anyone interested? It'd be great to put some faces to your names - or is that contrary to the purpose/intent to keep everyone anonymous of this chatline. California perhaps??

 

So, H calle a little while ago and he'll be here by 8 pm.

 

Trippi: Thanks. I think he understands that he's made some mistakes, for example, when he asked for forgiveness (and yes, I will find out WHAT it is he's asking forgiveness for) and for me to be "understanding" - that was also in yesterday's phone call - forgot to mention it previously - not sure what it is I'm supposed to be "understanding" of, but I'm sure I'll find out.

 

ShatteredReality: Re self respect and dignity - does that mean he shouldn't see the Victoria's Secret outfits I bought the other day in anticipation of this weekend going well?

 

Andyg99: I burst out laughing when I read what you wrote about Dr. Freud - in fact, I'm laughing as I'm typing this bit. You're hilarious.

 

IF he asks for "more time", I will ask "more time for what?" I'm trying to anticipate EVERY possible scenario that can take place and plan accordingly. Yes, I KNOW I over analyze things and it's crazy. Actually, I was told a couple of days ago that certain characteristics that are valued in one environment, such as work, might not be valued in another environment - that may be obvious to lots of you, but, I'd never thought of that before.

 

I'm not justifying his actions by saying he felt like I ignored him - I was just explaining how he felt.

 

No, I don't want the issue of the A left in the closet (but recall he told me he's not having an A, so, if he doesn't admit to it, it either didn't happen or, he's not going to admit to it).

 

Re torturing myself: Someone on LS, and I don't recall who, has on their sign off line something like: "No man is worth your tears, and the one who is won't make you cry".

 

I'm not sure he knows how much difficulty I've had with this situation because other than getting a bit chocked up during dinner with him a few weeks back (not cool!), I've tried to be upbeat and positive.

 

And finally, if I am still up in the air after this weekend, I can't wait to hear what you have to say.

[2sunny]

i appreciate your kind heart and big efforts - i really do... especially IF it's directed toward a deserving man. but i must ask a question before i get started...

 

what is your H DOING? why are YOU making so much effort when he isn't? sit back and wait for his action in making the effort to be honest and transparent. he hasn't given you ANYTHING to work with - and really has treated you with disrespect yet you keep begging for his time and attention. he's trained you to be sweet and nice while he makes such little effort to love you... much less no effort to admit what HE did and repair the damage.

 

UNTIL you see HIM doing all the work necessary - do not see him except at the counselors office.

 

you are looking too desperate to make him happy when he isn't doing the effort for YOU.

 

 

Had a TWO HOUR phone counselling session (no, I'm NOT crazy!!!) with another MC that my aunt recommended - MC has a VERY impressive resume and was quite helpful - basically she said that IF H tells me this weekend that he needs more time, AND he agrees to go to MC with me, AND I want to work on M, then I should "graciously" give him the extra time (I'm bottom lining it for you). She's also a big advocate of honesty.

 

and what boundary have you decided on? how much is "more time" and MORE TIME for WHAT EXACTLY? i think you need to know HIS TRUTH!!!! you also need to know what his intentions are!!! bump him off that fence he's been sitting on! ask the questions - and ask them now! you need answers IF you are to understand what decisions you need to make. he should be capable of answering simple questions like:

 

did you fall in love with her?

did you have sex with her?

do you INTEND to repair the damage in our M?

do you even love me?

what are you planning to DO next?

 

based on simple answers (he should be capable of answering MOST with a yes or no answer - if he won't... then he doesn't intend to stay). YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO ANSWERS! start asking and demanding he be honest and upfront about what he intends to do in the future.

 

it's not right for him to leave you wondering all this time. men know - they know if they intend to stay or go.

 

That makes 2 psychologists, 2 MC and my aunt (the shrink) that I've consulted, in addition to family and friends, as well as divorce busters. And I've done lots of reading in this area that, prior to a few months ago, had absolutely no knowledge about. Anything that I've missed or that I've overlooked?

 

yes. deciding what YOU are going to do... also - setting a solid boundary that you stick with!

 

pleasing yourself at this point instead of a man that treats you worse than dirt - while you beg for more.

 

H called me yesterday morning at home before work to say hi. That was the extent of the conversation.

 

little effort - and actually tells you nothing that you REALLY need to know.

 

Then he called me this morning at work to say hi so "naturally" I took the opportunity to let him know I was missing him last night (TMI?) and was looking forward to tonight.

 

same as offering up sex without expecting decency from him. you are rewarding his bad behavior. he's never going to give you any truth as long as you reward his bad behavior. he makes a phone cal "hi" - and you offer sex. i hope he leaves $500.00 on the night stand!!! seriously!

 

My cleaning lady, who's never met my H and isn't particularly effective at her job, assured me last week that he'd be coming back home.

 

because she can see how weak this looks... and she knows you plan to take him back no matter what. he WILL come back this way - and when he gets there - he'll treat you like $hit once he's home - because you have no boundary and you are rewarding him for being such an a$$.

 

 

This evening's dinner prep's complete and my clothes are laid out (no black as he thought I wore too much black). House is spotless (and no, the cleaning lady was NOT here yesterday!)

 

please him - please him... start being yourself! HONOR yourself!

 

do NOT have sex with him either!!!!!

 

 

This is harder than dating when I was MUCH younger!!!

 

because you are trying to FORCE a man to want you - when his actions show that he doesn't want you.

 

IF he intended to be home- HE'D BE BEGGING YOU!!!!!

 

2sunny: My guess is that at some point this weekend, he'll be more forthright than previously.

 

probably not - because you are too afraid to ask the real questions! he's not going to communicate with honesty until he's forced to. yet - you won't even ask!

 

start ASKING!!!!! then be very quiet while you listen for the answer. if he hedges around a REAL answer - he doesn't INTEND to come home.

 

I think in part I know why he wanted out - he felt like I was ignoring him.

 

poor baby - couldn't communicate his needs to you - he needed to go behind your back and find another woman to "pay attention" to him.

 

he needs to GROW UP!

 

i think you spoiled him... and now he's acting like the male he is - a spoiled baby that wants the ice cream and the candy at the same time - hoping no one will ask if he's having one or both. yet - you continue to coddle this big a$$ baby! why?

 

 

 

You and others have previously advised to "start taking good care of you". I'm SURE if you keep mentioning it to me, eventually it will sink in.

 

well - hopefully sooner rather than later!

 

If I happen to post this weekend that M is over, you might want to purchase shares in Kleenex when the stock markets open.

 

i don't know why you don't see the writing on the wall - he makes no effort. it should be something you can move to accepting at that point.

 

you should already have the answer. he's given it to you all along with his INACTION. yet YOU keep asking for a date and spoiling him when you be telling that MF to get the hell out now!

 

where is YOUR self respect my dear?

 

go find it now!!!!! you need it! and look for your healthy boundary while you're at it.

 

even IF he wanted to come back - i'd hope you tell him NO WAY! NOT UNTIL HE'S DONE ALL THE WORK TO HEAL HIS BROKEN SELF AND REPAIR THE DAMAGE HE'S CAUSED!

 

he really hasn't done hardly a thing!

 

stop making all the effort - it's not yours to make yet.

[ShatteredReality]

I'm strictly replying to the part about the outfits you bought for this weekend...LOL...Umm...Ok...so I am just gonna say it - you have needs too. I am a terrible person to talk about about abstaining - after DDay my H didn't touch me for like two or three weeks while he decided whether or not he was going to stay with me...however, I wasn't sure if I was going to stay or not - but the ENTIRE time I was deciding we were having sex. This was when we were deciding if we wanted to even save our marriage and deal with the fundamental issues apart from any affairs or anything...I say get your needs met, enjoy your weekend...if it is the last weekend you're "married" then at least you'll get a little something something out of it. But that's me and that could be awful advice.

[itllgetbetter]

Bottom line: It appears that H's going to return home. Details below.

 

H walks into our house yesterday evening, I start crying, and he gives me a hug, asks why I'm crying and I explain that it's because of the flowers he got me. One of my faults, that he didn't list, is that over the years, I'd told him not to get me flowers because:

 

(a) I can pick them up myself and he wouldn't have to go to the trouble; and

 

(b) He'd get them close to his office and spend about 5 x the price of anyplace I'd get them.

 

So MAYBE I am a bit controlling.

 

Can you IMAGINE if a guy cooks me dinner sometime - He'll start dessert by the time I'd be done crying - no man has ever cooked dinner for me.

 

The flowers came with a card that stated: "With an open heart".

 

Then H asked me to sit because he wanted to talk to me about something. He explained that he lost his wedding ring last weekend. He said something like "as you probably knew, I wasn't wearing it over the past few months". I replied: "But you were always wearing it when you saw me" (I'd wondered if he was wearing it when he wasn't with me but then figured although he usually sees me at our house and could keep it in the car & slip it on before he sees me, I met him once at his office and he was also wearing it then, so, I figured it'd take a fair bit of effort to remember to put it on when we're meeting in different spots (although now that I think of it he parks his car at the office so he could have got it from the car then met me - I am SO naive!!).

 

He explained that he wasn't committed to our M over the past few months which is why he wasn't wearing it. He also explained that he thought he MIGHT see me last weekend (although he'd previously said he'd be at a conference and declined my offer to join me at an event for which I'd purchased tickets to before the separation) and had it with him but then lost it.

 

And no, I didn't ask the obvious questions such as "shall we get you another one, are you now committed to the M?" We're going in for our MC session together in three days so, if things aren't more clear by then, I'm sure the MC session will provide some clarification. One thing the MC told me on Thursday night is that we don't "communicate" or do so "honestly".

 

He said that he's got work to do on Sunday and can either do it "here" (the house) or at the office. Not surprisingly to ANYONE who's read ANY of my posts, I said "if you can do it here, that'd be nice". Previously, when things were better in our M, he'd do his office work in the kitchen on the weekend while I cooked - it was one way we'd spend time together.

 

Had dinner - he really liked it and well ...

 

He asked this morning how we deal with the issue of my 5 year old niece and what she's been told about his absence. I'm not exactly sure what she's been told but I know it has something to do with him moving to another country - not sure why my SIL had to add that extra bit, but, it's done. For me, it would've been sufficient to tell her "he's at the office" for months on end.

 

My concern is that his bday's coming up and usually my mom has us over for dinner with my brother's family and my brother said a couple of weeks ago that he didn't think it'd be a good idea for my older niece to seem him too soon in case H leaves again.

 

On his way out to his meeting, he suggested us going away for a weekend to see the fall colours. This was a big step for him since he'd previously listed amongst his numerous complaints that I always "nagged" him to go away on the weekends.

 

ShatteredReality: It doesn't appear that this is the last weekend we'll be a M couple for.

 

2sunny: Thanks for the long post and the time you've taken to give your advice, especially when you're so busy working 7 days a week.

 

Not see him except at the counsellor's office? Wow.

 

So far he's not treated me badly - flowers, suggesting a weekend away, movie this afternoon - yes, there's been no apology but, I'm trying to take things slowly. And to all the men reading this post, this is NOT "how to" on taking a time out of your M then coming home with no apology and getting treated better than ever.

 

He wouldn't have mentioned my niece if he wasn't intending on coming home.

 

I wouldn't tell him not to come back until he's done the work on himself because of his depression. And, that just seems so harsh. It's not that it's bad advice, it's just that it's not me.

 

Basically, I've waited this long, that waiting three more days until the MC session if we don't have a conversation before then about our situation, isn't too much longer to wait.

 

Your questions below:

 

did you fall in love with her?

did you have sex with her?

do you INTEND to repair the damage in our M?

do you even love me?

what are you planning to DO next?

 

 

I'll ask them at the MC session in three days if I don't have answers by then.

 

And yes, I recognize there are a lot of "ifs", etc. about this situation.

[andyg99]

comments in BOLD

 

Not see him except at the counsellor's office? Wow.

 

One of the best pieces of advice you got here

 

 

 

He wouldn't have mentioned my niece if he wasn't intending on coming home.

 

you said she was 5? what's the big deal then? if he is coming home what does it matter? she is 5!! you could tell her he was staying with Mickey Mouse for the past few months?? the only concern would be if you two are done, then there would have to be some explaining so unless I'm reading this wrong I don't see his concern about her as a sign of coming home, just the opposite IMO.

 

I wouldn't tell him not to come back until he's done the work on himself because of his depression. And, that just seems so harsh. It's not that it's bad advice, it's just that it's not me.

 

no - depression is a serious thing, telling him not to come back because of that would be cruel... BUT he should not comeback until he man's up and confesses his affair and he also needs to commit himself to respect your boundaries... you are going to set boundaries right? why haven't you told him about them yet? you'll be checking his phone messages, e-mails and computer accounts, right???

 

Basically, I've waited this long, that waiting three more days until the MC session if we don't have a conversation before then about our situation, isn't too much longer to wait.

 

Your questions below:

 

did you fall in love with her?

did you have sex with her?

do you INTEND to repair the damage in our M?

do you even love me?

what are you planning to DO next?

 

 

I'll ask them at the MC session in three days if I don't have answers by then.

 

if you see him today ask him those questions - but you're afraid he'll turn away if you do, right? why is a man like that worth keeping?

 

It took me a long time to become who I am today - I am now able to set boundaries and enforce them in all areas of my life, you can do it too.... All I see happening here is you setting yourself up to go through this all over again sometime soon after he moves back home... he cheated and he's getting dinner cooked and a night with sexy lingerie, that was his punishment! WOW! unless you set those boundaries he'll do it again- guaranteed, trust me on this..

 

And yes, I recognize there are a lot of "ifs", etc. about this situation.

 

why are you afraid of removing those "ifs"... that fact that there are still "ifs" right now is 100% your fault.

 

[2sunny]

since you won't speak your truth - and neither will he - what you only have as evidence in your M is that you have a M based on dishonesty. even though nothing is being said - there is still SO MUCH dishonesty behind the silence.

 

IF you two (or even one of you) decide to demand some honesty with the M - then and ONLY then - may you find what a REAL M can look like. in the meantime - it's all pretending.

 

your scenario of last night seems absurd to me... he offers no REAL info - no honesty - no solid indication of what HAS happened or what MAY even happen (HIS intent) for the future - yet YOU stay silent... then you offer up sex. so you two are having sex and pretending that THAT is enough... it's not! and by the way - sex does not equate to love. big surprise eh?

 

some people have sex for a variety of reasons:

 

it tricks them into "thinking" they aren't alone

it tricks them into "thinking" they are loved

it may be that they are just horny in that moment

it may be that they just don't want to "feel" alone

they may feel "obligated"

they may want to "make YOU believe" it means something when it doesn't

 

sex and love are "many" times two different things. when it's balanced = it's equal giving and receiving without one or the other feeling they are giving anything away... or taking too much - effortless when it's balanced and right. a spiritual experience for sure... with NO ONE walking away with any negative feelings or "wondering."

 

as an honesty and authentic woman who values my word - and those around me - this really makes me physically sick for you. you are betraying yourself by not demanding answers to obvious questions.

 

YOU DO NOT need to be sitting in front of a professional to ask him for answers.

 

STOP LIVING IN FEAR!!!!

 

he's hiding many things - and when there's nothing to hide - people hide nothing! crawl out from under that rock and demand to know what is REALLY going on... with him - with her - and with both of you - and the M - and the future! YOU have every RIGHT to know and you should have been asking and demanding MONTHS AGO!

 

he OWES YOU ANSWERS! start asking - and demand answers before you decide what you may or may not do with your future!

 

you have NO BOUNDARY - that is the crux of YOUR problem... you look completely desperate to keep him no matter what... and that is the WORST part you could be playing in the whole situation. you keep doing it this way and you WILL have him back - pining away after his OW that never transpired - and taking his depression and resentments out on you... all because you never demanded answers and truth - set a boundary - but you allowed him to come back and short change you for all the years that are to come.

 

wake up my dear!

[2sunny]

a weak woman will offer for him to do his office work at your home

 

a strong woman would say "i'm busy - work from your office"

 

a weak woman will avoid asking questions she deserves answers to - avoid his truth in hopes that his truth isn't reality = delusional

 

a strong woman would ask for any and all info be given - whether he likes the questions or not

 

a weak woman bows down to his every whim - every request = giving him ALL her power

 

a strong woman takes her power back and does what makes HER happy - stays neutral on all accounts - so that he doesn't have the ability to control all the power

 

a weak woman offers up sex to a man - and hands him all her power to use and abuse her

 

a strong woman requires a man to earn the privilege of being close to her - by requiring a man to treat her with dignity and respect and honor her if he intends to be close to her heart. a strong woman has him EARN that privilege.

 

a weak woman makes a man dinner after inviting HIM to come over (young folks refer to this as a booty call - yep, that is you) - then also hands over sex without requiring anything of HIM except to show up

 

a strong woman waits for a man to ask her OUT. requires him to make an effort to romance her - and waits to see if he puts thought and effort into planning time spent together - today and the future

 

 

he has you right where he wants you - the weak woman - and you are a willing woman for the weak role YOU play. when are you going to stop doing this to YOURSELF? yes, YOU do this to YOURSELF by the way YOU PARTICIPATE.

 

the way you are participating - shows him that you aren't honoring yourself - so there is NO REASON in the world why HE should honor you at all. since YOU'RE not going to honor yourself = who will?

[itllgetbetter]

He gave me a card yesterday that said he'd like to give our M another chance. The day prior, he said the same thing.

 

This morning he asked if I felt he was "cherishing" me. Answer: "Yes."

 

Andyg99: There SHOULDN'T be a problem with our 5 year old niece - If it was up to me, my niece would have been told my H's at work and that's why he's not at family functions - it's her uncle, NOT her dad, and, I don't think you should put adult problems on a child.

 

However, in June my SIL seems to have told my niece my H's gone away and isn't returning. No one said that that was the case though and my SIL exaggerated the story, which she is prone to do. So now my brother, who likes to keep a peaceful homelife, isn't disagreeing with his wife who doesn't want my H to see my niece, their reasoning being that he may leave again.

 

As far as confessing what he's done over the past few months, that hasn't happened yet. On Sat. night, I was explaining that I had a counselling session with a woman a few days prior and she was an advocate of total honesty. His response was "what if the person knows what they're going to say is going to hurt the other person?" My response was: "You should tell them anyway, it's the honest thing to do, and, there can't be true forgiveness if there isn't honesty ..."

 

As far as checking e-mails, phone messages, and computer accounts, no, I haven't said I do that and ... I think this was a one-time thing as it's never happened in the past. Although I could do all of those things, my thought is that if someone wants to cheat, they'll find a way to do so, regardless of all the checks that are put in place. If this was a case where he was a serial cheater, I'd probably do those things.

 

I don't KNOW that he cheated - but, so that you're aware, my nickname in high school was "sheltered" that carried on through university and post-grad, although I was always with different classmates for the different stages of my schooling.

 

And I really hope you're incorrect about him doing this again.

 

The MC session is tomorrow, so, I'll see how it goes and what information is exchaged then.

 

2sunny: I couldn've saved myself lots of money on my most recent counselling session the counsellor said the same thing you did about neither of us speaking honestly.

 

Yes, I'm living in fear - I feel like I can't ask the difficult questions until we're back on relatively solid ground, which is why, for example, I'm quite upset by my brother & SIL saying they don't want my H to see my 5 year old niece at this time, in case he leaves again. I want to try to make things as normal as possible as quickly as possible.

 

It's only been a couple of days that he's been back but there's definitely an improvment - in fact - things are nice (except for not knowing what he did over the past few months) - they're not at all like before he left.

 

As far as him showing up just for sex - that wasn't it - he said he wanted to give our M another chance and even before that was said, it was clear by the way things were going that that's the way things were headed.

[trippi1432]

Yes, I'm living in fear - I feel like I can't ask the difficult questions until we're back on relatively solid ground, which is why, for example, I'm quite upset by my brother & SIL saying they don't want my H to see my 5 year old niece at this time, in case he leaves again. I want to try to make things as normal as possible as quickly as possible.

 

It's only been a couple of days that he's been back but there's definitely an improvment - in fact - things are nice (except for not knowing what he did over the past few months) - they're not at all like before he left.

 

As far as him showing up just for sex - that wasn't it - he said he wanted to give our M another chance and even before that was said, it was clear by the way things were going that that's the way things were headed.

 

Just a small course correction IGB - STOP trying to make everything as normal as possible for everyone else...things need to be "normal" for you, but you will have to define what that is.

 

I understand you want to get him back in the home to work on things....that is where you feel that you will have your "safety net", but don't be upset about your brother and SIL wanting to protect their daughter, they have a valid point. Until the two of you are solid (and on solid ground, meaning honesty...total open honesty), they have every reason to want to protect her.

 

I will say one thing that you got totally right, there is no amount of checks and balances that you could put into play that will make a person not cheat. You cannot force someone not to be a cheater, nor can you use scare tactics for them not to do that. Everyone has the capacity to cheat, it is morals and values that stop them from being that way. I chose in my life, not to take back cheaters after I learned my lesson, because I would not choose to live my life not knowing if I could trust them. I do think, and know, that there are many people out there that feel the same way I do and have those same values. Do not be afraid that this is your only choice.....but cherish is something you should feel when he is with you, when you look in his eyes and in the way he treats you both physically and emotionally....it's not cards and flowers or just the words he says. It all needs to match up, the actions and the words and it needs to be consistent....even in the hardest of times when you are asking for honesty.

[andyg99]

 

However, in June my SIL seems to have told my niece my H's gone away and isn't returning. No one said that that was the case though and my SIL exaggerated the story, which she is prone to do. So now my brother, who likes to keep a peaceful homelife, isn't disagreeing with his wife who doesn't want my H to see my niece, their reasoning being that he may leave again.

 

.

 

these two people know you and your husband better than anyone here - I think their actions speak volumes... open your eyes....

[itllgetbetter]

We discussed our MC session today which is going to take place later this afternoon. He said that things seem to be going well and he doesn't really see a need for the MC after today. I explained to him that I want us both to understand exactly what got us here so that we will never come to this place again and I thought that MC would benefit us.

 

It's only been a couple of days that we've been together but things are going well (and no Andy, it's not just due to the nice dinners and sexy lingerie!!) & we're having more frank discussions. For example, yesterday he said he'd like us to consider having separate bank accounts - normally I would've said no automatically, but, instead, I explained that that's something we should consider. That's a HUGE issue for me in that we've never had separate bank accounts & to me, it's as if we're taking a couple of steps back. But, I'm trying to deal with this situation.

 

H earns over 3 x what I do so I'm not sure how finances would be divided - I do more household chores because he works longer hours. To be frank, even if we shared finances in proportion to our earnings, I think I'd come out ahead since he spends much more than I do (personal training, his clothes, etc.).

 

He also has his own credit card, which I requested he get when we separated. But, for example, he's left his open credit card statement on the kitchen table, and I haven't taken a look at it. And even if I did, it wouldn't be helpful because if there are restaurant expenses on it, he could easily say those were business lunches/dinners, and I'd have no way to check it out.

 

Trippi: Your avatar's new - very nice.

 

Trippi and Andy: Re my brother & SIL wanting to protect their daughter - I understand that, but, I assure you that's not the case here - too much detail to go into. I was speaking with my mom this morning and she said today, as she's said in the past, my brother & SIL use their daughter as a "weapon" (her word, not mine) to get what they can from my H & I because they see we're very attached to her (we don't have kids). What they've done in the past is if we don't do what they want, they cut off our contact with their daughter.

[2sunny]

We discussed our MC session today which is going to take place later this afternoon. He said that things seem to be going well and he doesn't really see a need for the MC after today. I explained to him that I want us both to understand exactly what got us here so that we will never come to this place again and I thought that MC would benefit us.

 

It's only been a couple of days that we've been together but things are going well (and no Andy, it's not just due to the nice dinners and sexy lingerie!!) & we're having more frank discussions. For example, yesterday he said he'd like us to consider having separate bank accounts - normally I would've said no automatically, but, instead, I explained that that's something we should consider. That's a HUGE issue for me in that we've never had separate bank accounts & to me, it's as if we're taking a couple of steps back. But, I'm trying to deal with this situation.

 

H earns over 3 x what I do so I'm not sure how finances would be divided - I do more household chores because he works longer hours. To be frank, even if we shared finances in proportion to our earnings, I think I'd come out ahead since he spends much more than I do (personal training, his clothes, etc.).

 

He also has his own credit card, which I requested he get when we separated. But, for example, he's left his open credit card statement on the kitchen table, and I haven't taken a look at it. And even if I did, it wouldn't be helpful because if there are restaurant expenses on it, he could easily say those were business lunches/dinners, and I'd have no way to check it out.

 

Trippi: Your avatar's new - very nice.

 

Trippi and Andy: Re my brother & SIL wanting to protect their daughter - I understand that, but, I assure you that's not the case here - too much detail to go into. I was speaking with my mom this morning and she said today, as she's said in the past, my brother & SIL use their daughter as a "weapon" (her word, not mine) to get what they can from my H & I because they see we're very attached to her (we don't have kids). What they've done in the past is if we don't do what they want, they cut off our contact with their daughter.

 

NOTHING that got you to this place has been DISCUSSED - much less TAKEN ACTION ON all of the problems that caused this affair... (whether emotional and/or physical).

 

avoiding = THAT is what you two could address in MC - the way you two never seems to get to the problems to be discussed - you just avoid them like they aren't there - well guess what? they are there! and you are acting like everything is fine as long as he comes home and has sex with you... it's NOT fine!

 

he WILL cheat again!

 

tell him you want to talk about EVERYTHING! you need to see EVERYTHING! look at his credit card bills!

 

he's setting himself up so he CAN cheat again! he sounds like a TOTAL player!!!!! you may not see it - but he is. separate anything allows him room to DO whatever HE wants!

 

he should be COMPLETELY transparent - but he's opposite of that! he's hiding more - and now telling you no more MC after the first session! :mad: he doesn't even get to the first one and he doesn't want to go after that? :mad:

 

you, my dear - have a man that isn't going to own his part in this - and since he won't be honest - you have NO value in the M.

 

IF that is what you want your M to be - then just keep being wimpy gal and taking him back - expecting him to do nothing different.

 

his ego is huge. he expects you to act like it's a gift for him to pay attention to him. :mad:

 

 

loving behavior would look like a man who's willing to consider you, your feelings, and doing anything he needs to do to repair what he's broken - but he's not... he's still thinking how he can get out of trouble - figuring out how NOT to be honest - trying NOT to be accountable for his actions!

 

THAT is NOT loving behavior.

 

he seems narcissistic and selfish. not a good combo for you to accept.

 

i'd take this and print it out - read it in front of the counselor and ask him how he intends to repair the damage he caused... what is going to CHANGE - and how he intends to restore your faith in him. first order of business being "what is his truth?" what has he been hiding?

[2sunny]

he hasn't worked on anything (or told you what he's changed about himself).

 

yet you participate by sweeping it under the rug like it didn't happen - isn't happening.

 

his truth has not been revealed. you aren't honest at all either - about how insecure and afraid his behavior has made YOU feel. he hasn't DONE anything to rectify all of this.

 

so you WILL get more of the same - unless everything changes!

 

the one to change this is YOU - by not accepting this unacceptable behavior from HIM.

 

it's past time to put your foot down... unless you enjoy being this muddy doormat.

 

nothing has changed= so yes, he will cheat again! guaranteed!

[trippi1432]

We discussed our MC session today which is going to take place later this afternoon. He said that things seem to be going well and he doesn't really see a need for the MC after today. I explained to him that I want us both to understand exactly what got us here so that we will never come to this place again and I thought that MC would benefit us.

 

It's what you are not saying here IGB....he said one thing...you "explained" another point of view...where did you net out at? Is it just the one session then or did he understand your point of view and what did he offer up...or was the next thing he offered up what you state below about the separate bank accounts?

 

It's only been a couple of days that we've been together but things are going well (and no Andy, it's not just due to the nice dinners and sexy lingerie!!) & we're having more frank discussions. For example, yesterday he said he'd like us to consider having separate bank accounts - normally I would've said no automatically, but, instead, I explained that that's something we should consider. That's a HUGE issue for me in that we've never had separate bank accounts & to me, it's as if we're taking a couple of steps back. But, I'm trying to deal with this situation.

 

So, you are willing to walk away from what you would normally do to prove to him you have changed...that you will not continue to be this bad person that would drive him into the arms of another woman? I'm only calling it as I see it laid out here, as you have put it, because it is you walking away and giving up on yourself right now.

 

It is taking a couple of steps back...seems now he is the one not trusting you or is that you willing to give up all control just to keep him? I've said before, control is a fallacy...an illusion. Neither of you will have it, not even him, as long as there is free will.

 

H earns over 3 x what I do so I'm not sure how finances would be divided - I do more household chores because he works longer hours. To be frank, even if we shared finances in proportion to our earnings, I think I'd come out ahead since he spends much more than I do (personal training, his clothes, etc.).

 

He also has his own credit card, which I requested he get when we separated. But, for example, he's left his open credit card statement on the kitchen table, and I haven't taken a look at it. And even if I did, it wouldn't be helpful because if there are restaurant expenses on it, he could easily say those were business lunches/dinners, and I'd have no way to check it out.

 

Trippi: Your avatar's new - very nice.

 

Trippi and Andy: Re my brother & SIL wanting to protect their daughter - I understand that, but, I assure you that's not the case here - too much detail to go into. I was speaking with my mom this morning and she said today, as she's said in the past, my brother & SIL use their daughter as a "weapon" (her word, not mine) to get what they can from my H & I because they see we're very attached to her (we don't have kids). What they've done in the past is if we don't do what they want, they cut off our contact with their daughter.

 

Thank you for the compliment IGB, I like it too.

 

But I have to ask you, what value does your husband bring you right now? Other than the fact that he is your husband and you claim to love him....what value is there in your taking him back under these new conditions? One MC session, split up the bank accounts....and God knows what other demands that he might make. What exactly are you going to say at the MC session since you only get one shot at telling him you want to work on the marriage and want a guarantee that this won't happen again.

 

Right now, he has all the power and is calling all of the shots....so what happens when he wants his "way" again...decides that you are being too controlling, not listening to him....all the things he laid on you as his reason for being unhappy...are you going to be okay when you are emptying his pockets and finding condoms? Will you be happy when you find lipstick on his collar or smell perfume on his shirt from another new client? I know that is harsh and you might not like hearing it, but letting him sweep it under the rug is just showing him that you will accept it. Have you ever trained a new puppy? When you let the puppy pee on the rug and don't address the fact that it did something wrong, it becomes a learned behavior that its acceptable to pee on the rug. You are asking him to learn not to pee on the rug all by himself (not comparing men to dogs here...metaphor)....but you are allowing it. Somewhere you have to take a stand that it is unacceptable.

[Yasuandio]

Oh dear. I thank God I didn't get the opportunity for a choice like this, as my human nature and niavite would have gotten the best of me too. I am three years out now, with essentially the same dynamics, and, IGB, Sunny, Andy, and Ms. Trippi, if you listen to them, are going to save you a lot of heartache.

 

I really felt for you when I pictured you picking out your little goodies for that special weekend. The kindest reader of your posts could only, at best, describe as wishful thinking, and at worst, complete denial. It was so sad and pathetic to think of you going thru these hopeless motions, and having that little home table with the readings that so demonstrate your good, loving, faith and spirit. I had to ask myself again, he cheated on her - right? She's acting extra specially nice. Right. WTF is wrong with this picture? I am guilty of same. I will not let it happen again. When I see it in action -- oh dear. That's all I can say.

 

This is just an outsider's viewpoint. And it could have happened to me very easily, and I would have lapped it right up out of my doggy dish, every last drop. But by not giving yourself so freely to him, you will preserve your self esteme (what is there right now). Please don't give in to this. And don't beg him to go to MC. Here is an interesting author who does not promote MC in this stage: Dr. Robert Huisiger. I sppelled it wrong. There are a few others with the same name. He has tons of free reading. I think you should look at that POV.

 

This puppy is not only gonna piss on your rug; he is gonna pee on your leg too -- then tell you it's raining outside! It is critical how you handle matters in these early stages. Please find that authors free stuff. Google him with infidelity. Good luck, You

Edited October 4, 2011 by Yasuandio

[itllgetbetter]

Had the MC session this evening. Have another one scheduled a few weeks from now. MC asked if we'd like another session and it was H who said yes first.

 

I asked NONE of 2sunny's questions that she suggested asking. The issue of the OW wasn't raised by either one of us. H explained that he told me he didn't wear his wedding band during the period of separation.

 

As soon as we started the session, I immediately understood why some people have suggested taking separate cars to MC sessions. I also thought that H's going to change his mind about moving back home the way he was talking - but he's not.

 

H explained that I was too controlling, especially with $ when he earns more than I do. He said that he didn't feel like he had an equal say in what happens with our $. I explained that I was taking care of paying the bills & ensuring that we had money for what we'd planned on doing.

 

Now this is comical, at my expense: H said that he previously asked me to prepare a budget, which we then discussed. However, I didn't follow it. I explained to him during the MC session, as I did in the past, that I thought the "budget" was for "informational purposes" so that we'd have some idea of our monthly/yearly expenses and that I didn't realize I was supposed to "follow" it. Which lead to his next issue: He said that he didn't feel "listened to" - if I had listened to him, I would have understood that I was supposed to follow the budget.

 

When the issue of separate bank accounts came up, he said that although he earns more than I do, he wants us to be equal in terms of $.

 

He also said that he wants to move forward with the M, doesn't want to dwell on this period of separation and doesn't want "reprisals" in the future. He repeated the reprisals bit later when we were alone.

 

Trippi: He agreed that we don't ever want to be in the place that got us here and agreed to additional MC sessions if necessary, which is what we ended up scheduling this evening. The discussion about separate bank accounts was the prior evening.

 

Re not saying "no" automatically to separate bank accounts: This is me demonstrating that I've changed over the past few months.

 

I don't think this is going to be a "learned behaviour" with him as he's never done anything like this in the past.

 

Yasuandio: I don't know if he "cheated". I should but I don't. I didn't "beg" him to go to MC - he agreed when the MC suggested it. Thanks for the info re what I can google.

[2sunny]

so in the MC session - H made all these demands...

 

did you agree to those demands?

 

did you have any demands of him?

 

did H agree to your terms? (if you made any requests)...

 

dear God - i hope you didn't hand him more power - and at the same time no requests...

 

i didn't think this could possibly look more pathetic - but it looks like it is.

 

on a side note - H seems to be more consumed and concerned about the money than your feelings, the M or what he may need to do to get back on track.

 

just like expected - NONE of the real issues were discussed. this is a terribly unhealthy M - whether it ends or goes forward. you can't be helped unless you START HELPING YOURSELF FIRST!!!!

 

seems frustrating to even read = watching you hand over more power to him every time he breathes near you. you may as well have made HIM your God at this point.

 

i don't understand why you won't ask him what any woman would need to know - his truth.

 

fear is the worst way to live... there's no room for happiness in a M when fear is that prevalent.

[trippi1432]

Had the MC session this evening. Have another one scheduled a few weeks from now. MC asked if we'd like another session and it was H who said yes first.

 

I asked NONE of 2sunny's questions that she suggested asking. The issue of the OW wasn't raised by either one of us. H explained that he told me he didn't wear his wedding band during the period of separation.

 

As soon as we started the session, I immediately understood why some people have suggested taking separate cars to MC sessions. I also thought that H's going to change his mind about moving back home the way he was talking - but he's not.

 

H explained that I was too controlling, especially with $ when he earns more than I do. He said that he didn't feel like he had an equal say in what happens with our $. I explained that I was taking care of paying the bills & ensuring that we had money for what we'd planned on doing.

 

Now this is comical, at my expense: H said that he previously asked me to prepare a budget, which we then discussed. However, I didn't follow it. I explained to him during the MC session, as I did in the past, that I thought the "budget" was for "informational purposes" so that we'd have some idea of our monthly/yearly expenses and that I didn't realize I was supposed to "follow" it. Which lead to his next issue: He said that he didn't feel "listened to" - if I had listened to him, I would have understood that I was supposed to follow the budget.

 

When the issue of separate bank accounts came up, he said that although he earns more than I do, he wants us to be equal in terms of $.

 

He also said that he wants to move forward with the M, doesn't want to dwell on this period of separation and doesn't want "reprisals" in the future. He repeated the reprisals bit later when we were alone.

 

Trippi: He agreed that we don't ever want to be in the place that got us here and agreed to additional MC sessions if necessary, which is what we ended up scheduling this evening. The discussion about separate bank accounts was the prior evening.

 

Re not saying "no" automatically to separate bank accounts: This is me demonstrating that I've changed over the past few months.

 

I don't think this is going to be a "learned behaviour" with him as he's never done anything like this in the past.

 

Yasuandio: I don't know if he "cheated". I should but I don't. I didn't "beg" him to go to MC - he agreed when the MC suggested it. Thanks for the info re what I can google.

 

Well, it's obvious that you know what you are doing....you really only need us as a sounding board, so do as you feel you must.

 

I've noticed from your post that you address the issues with us as much as you do your husband. I wish you happiness, I really do.

 

BTW - my second ex and the learned behavior...for 15 years he was solid...he just knew he crossed a line he couldn't uncross...not after my being married to a serial cheat. I believe you posted something back when he was marrying the cheating woman he was cheating with that two cheats could never be happy. You husband had something going on, you don't know what....irregardless he cheated in some capacity....and now you are cheating yourself out of your self-respect. Same thing.

 

When you are ready to stop arguing with yourself, I'll be back....I thought I didn't need this place either after my husband came back. :o:o

[2sunny]

and now you are cheating yourself out of your self-respect.

 

this is the crux of the problem - YOUR problem OP - and why it's painful to watch you participate like you do. YOU are DOING this to yourself... by allowing him to rob you of your self esteem and self worth.

 

there's not a chance that he's going to treat you the way you asked him to - when YOU don't require it FOR YOURSELF! it's literally impossible!

 

you aren't taking any advice here - you aren't changing or requiring any change.

 

you will get him back - a very broken man - unhealthy and unhappy man - and that is what you are begging for... as long as he comes back.

 

you are settling for no effort - no effort from you to change and become healthy - and no effort from him either. that is the man that always cheats again. he's had no consequences, no accountability and no work done to be sure he doesn't do this again.

 

and YOU sit in silence requiring none of the work be done - none of the issues be addressed and answered - and requiring no change - in fact YOU allow HIM to make demands at this juncture!

 

YOU should be telling him to F OFF with ANY demands of you! he should be bending over backwards to be transparent, honest and mindful of how YOU FEEL! but you won't - because you are settling for so little - so much so that you just handed him your dignity and self respect.

 

he will piss on it again because you aren't honoring yourself one bit.

 

i wish you well... unfortunately THAT won't help you now. you need a miracle. open your eyes dear - you are taking yourself down by not taking any action.

 

passive - too nice - too forgiving - too silent - and too weak.

 

he stole your backbone in the beginning - but you just handed it all over to him to stomp on - and now you think you won the prize by him coming back. good luck with that... you got what you wanted.

[ShatteredReality]

IGB....I have kinda been thinking about your situation - the progression and regression and progression etc. H has gone back and forth, waffled....a lot. You've given and given and given...

 

Your desperation - I have to ask this - is it a fear of failure? Do you want what's been lost? Are you fighting codependent urges? I'm asking some honest questions here - trying to better understand the situation. Normalcy states that the men are supposed to chase the women - that the harder a woman chases a man the more she pushes him away. She can show some assertion and self reliance, but ultimately men want to be the ones "on the hunt" so to speak.

 

Is he still the man you married originally? Or have things changed so much that he's no longer that man anymore? And if he's not...then do you love the new man? Do you even know the new man?

 

These are some of the random questions that roll around in my head while I read your posts. I'm not saying I believe you should give up or walk away or do anything any differently than you are. I am a firm believer that we need to make these choices for ourselves - I guess what I am looking for is an honest evaluation of the intentions/feelings behind everything that's going on here.

 

If he never admits to wrongdoing and comes home and just starts acting like this time in your lives never happened...will you be happy with him? Or do you need closure on this period in your lives? Some folks don't need the closure, they just need the forward movement...

[Yasuandio]

Sorry, I worked a long time on this post,, but then had second thoughts. I sincerely hope you had a chance to read it before I deleted it IGB. There is no way I would leave that paper trail for a man like your husband to find. Please listen to your support group here. Also, you might look up the definition of "cheap forgiveness" ala Abrhams, Springs, Ph.D. Sorry my spelling is terrible. And I don't know how to check on iPhone. Good luck, Yas

Edited October 5, 2011 by Yasuandio

[LifesontheUp]

Hi itllgetbetter,

 

All I read about is what he wants

 

OMG, what about you?

 

I know you are afraid that you'll lose him if you start making demands. But come on itllgetbetter, you've lost him anyway, if he isn't honest with you, doesn't respect you.

 

What have you got if you take him back like this? - a sham of a marriage. Are you that desperate that you want to live like that?

[richyc]

Itlgetbetter, you are way ahead of me here so I wanted to ask yours and others advice.

 

I started my own thread so you can see the tale but the short version of where we are now is that W left, been a month, she has doubts but is sticking to the decision. I think that when I had totally accepted it and was willing to split everything down the middle and call it quits during our discussion about finances she freaked out a bit.

 

She says that she has doubts and enjoys spending time with me now, are best friends again and I look good. But she says she isnt looking for anyone new but doesnt want to feel guilty about meeting new men and I shouldnt feel guilty about meeting other women. She also says that after the 2 month course which she is doing and has to focus on she still waqnts to move out of her mums and get a place on her own - she wants to be on her own for 6 months.

 

I dont get how she can be sure she wants to get her own place but not sure about our future. I wanted us to give each other a bit of space for a few months, work on being friends and not see other people but she doesnt want to feel guilty or have the pressure that we are ultimately working on getting back together.

 

To me meeting other people is one of those things that you cant take back. It is disrespecting our marriage. I also dont think that we can come back from living apart in seperate places for so long. If she gets her own place for 6 months and we each get used to living alone I dont see how she could come home and it work again and pick up where we left off, I think all the old familiarities would end up being negatives.

 

I also have some major trust issues now. I think she is trying to keep the door open and have me as a safety net. If she comes back before getting a place is it because she cant find or affor one? if she comes back after 6 months in her own place would it be because she couldnt hack it alone? when I am working will she still be having contact or meetings with guys from the dating sites she is now on?

 

Sorry to jack your thread but I need some help with this. During the first 4 weeks I did everything wrong, pushed and pushed and pushed her away. There was real hope early on but I blew it. Now I am working on being best friends again and letting her like the new me again and it is working, we talk like we used to when we were young but I am not sure that being her friend is the best thing for getting her back right now of if I am just helping her move on guilt free.

 

Do I let it go and see how things turn out, have no contact, be friends and let her enjoy the new me or give her an ultimatum like I wanted to - space and no one else until xmas then an answer

Edited October 7, 2011 by richyc

[2sunny]

richyc;3664890Itlgetbetter, you are way ahead of me here so I wanted to ask yours and others advice.

 

I started my own thread so you can see the tale but the short version of where we are now is that W left, been a month, she has doubts but is sticking to the decision. I think that when I had totally accepted it and was willing to split everything down the middle and call it quits during our discussion about finances she freaked out a bit.

 

you were honoring yourself - and she respected that about you. keep doing that now.

 

But she says she isnt looking for anyone new but doesnt want to feel guilty about meeting new men and I shouldnt feel guilty about meeting other women.

 

she asking for PERMISSION to cheat - and you have given it to her by agreeing to her moving on her own.

 

still waqnts to move out of her mums and get a place on her own - she wants to be on her own for 6 months.

 

so she can cheat.

 

 

I dont get how she can be sure she wants to get her own place but not sure about our future. I wanted us to give each other a bit of space for a few months, work on being friends and not see other people but she doesnt want to feel guilty or have the pressure that we are ultimately working on getting back together.

 

it won't work this way unless you intend to watch her cheat and be her friend. at that point you are her doormat. people don't respect a doormat person.

 

To me meeting other people is one of those things that you cant take back. It is disrespecting our marriage. I also dont think that we can come back from living apart in seperate places for so long. If she gets her own place for 6 months and we each get used to living alone I dont see how she could come home and it work again and pick up where we left off, I think all the old familiarities would end up being negatives.

 

yep...

 

 

 

I also have some major trust issues now.

 

how can you trust someone who is asking you to accept the unacceptable? trust is earned. she hasn't earned it - yet expects you to trust her? she's asking your permission to cheat... and have you trust that?

 

I think she is trying to keep the door open and have me as a safety net.

 

 

ummmm, yep. until she meets the man she believes will give her more than you offer.

 

If she comes back before getting a place is it because she cant find or affor one? if she comes back after 6 months in her own place would it be because she couldnt hack it alone? when I am working will she still be having contact or meetings with guys from the dating sites she is now on?

 

these are good questions but don't have any merit - since she hasn't told you what SHE intends to accomplish during the six months. what is she planning to FIX about her BROKEN self that made her consider cheating? what caused her to want to cheat? what is she willing to do so that SHE never considers cheating again?

 

SHE has so much work to do on her own - and THEN IF you even want to try again - you TWO have work to sift through together at THAT POINT.

 

if she hasn't repaired the damage SHE caused - owned how SHE participated - and changed everything - you are only accepting a woman back who will cheat again because she's just not happy. YOU can't fix THAT FOR HER! she must be willing to do the work to get to that place. if she won't - there's nothing you need to talk to her about except divorcing her.

 

 

There was real hope early on but I blew it

.

 

you probably had a boundary early on and were sticking to it. now you are blowing around in the breeze every time she wants to blow some hot air.

 

get back to honoring yourself... why should she honor you if you won't?

 

 

Now I am working on being best friends again and letting her like the new me again and it is working, we talk like we used to when we were young but I am not sure that being her friend is the best thing for getting her back right now of if I am just helping her move on guilt free.

 

this won't work... you need a back bone. you need a solid boundary - one that tells her NO WAY! either you work hard on yourself right here at home and honor me and the M while you work on your deficiencies - or we are done.

 

Do I let it go and see how things turn out, have no contact, be friends and let her enjoy the new me or give her an ultimatum like I wanted to - space and no one else until xmas then an answer

 

see the above. doing nothing will get you nothing - start speaking your truth and be sure you have a voice when she wants to cross the line!

 

never settle!