Author NickFeek Posted October 29, 2011 Author Posted October 29, 2011 Hi Fish & Finding Nemo (coincidental screen names!). I appreciate you checking in and/or reading through everything. It's nice to hear from the Forum from time to time. Things are not bad. We are in the murky middle. I can't claim to be super happy with how everything is going, and at times I'm troubled by our lack of progress. But at the moment our toughest & most prominent task has been to gain a deeper understanding of each other. To be more specific, I'm listening to everything she's saying about work, and really trying to empathize with how overwhelmed she is. I'm giving her more respect & concern in general on this subject. She is listening more to what I need from my work life, and how important it is for me to be involved in my company, despite the OW's presence. Neither of us are completely comfortable with the other's work needs, but the listening & understanding has seriously helped us to be more patient & tolerant & compromising, and to work through the tough issues. On the interpersonal level, we have made small progress. I would call the state of our relationship guarded but promising. I can't say we're anywhere close to being out of the woods, but we both seem to be walking in the same direction. She still has a TON to work through relating to both what I did and her pre-existing issues, as well as exactly what she expects from the future. And I am struggling to find picture of the future that makes complete sense. But for now I'm happy that we've regained a good deal of stability. There's so much more to say, but being in that murky middle makes it all a little jumbled in this old noggin.
SmellOfRain Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) I'm soooo glad that you are both continuing to work at it 25 years is more than just a number ~ it is a testament of your commitment to each other.... The first few years of my own marriage were tough (we are now 19 years and going strong).....but it was through these rocky patches that I learned a lot about myself.....it's true that we can't change our partner, but we can sure work on those areas that need to change in our own lives. It is easy to say 'I do' on the wedding day and forget soon after what you said 'I do' to....eg I do ~ to loving and being committed to you in sickness and in health.....I do ~ to loving and being committed to you till death do us part, for richer for poorer etc Most young women and maybe some men, see, 'And they lived happily ever after' at the end of a romantic movie, then the credits start rolling and we don't see the actual reality of their ever after .....we can be conditioned to think all will be rosy when in actual fact marriage requires a lot of work. Keep working at it and take time to really love the person you're with ~ of all the people they could have pledged a commitment to, they chose you.....that makes ya kinda special don't you think? Edited October 29, 2011 by SmellOfRain
Author NickFeek Posted October 29, 2011 Author Posted October 29, 2011 I'm soooo glad that you are both continuing to work at it 25 years is more than just a number ~ it is a testament of your commitment to each other.... The first few years of my own marriage were tough (we are now 19 years and going strong).....but it was through these rocky patches that I learned a lot about myself.....it's true that we can't change our partner, but we can sure work on those areas that need to change in our own lives. It is easy to say 'I do' on the wedding day and forget soon after what you said 'I do' to....eg I do ~ to loving and being committed to you in sickness and in health.....I do ~ to loving and being committed to you till death do us part, for richer for poorer etc Most young women and maybe some men, see, 'And they lived happily ever after' at the end of a romantic movie, then the credits start rolling and we don't see the actual reality of their ever after .....we can be conditioned to think all will be rosy when in actual fact marriage requires a lot of work. Keep working at it and take time to really love the person you're with ~ of all the people they could have pledged a commitment to, they chose you.....that makes ya kinda special don't you think? All VERY well said. And I'll agree that we are learning more about ourselves during this incredibly rocky period than we have in at least the last ten years.
Afishwithabike Posted October 29, 2011 Posted October 29, 2011 Hi Fish & Finding Nemo (coincidental screen names!). I appreciate you checking in and/or reading through everything. It's nice to hear from the Forum from time to time. Things are not bad. We are in the murky middle. I can't claim to be super happy with how everything is going, and at times I'm troubled by our lack of progress. But at the moment our toughest & most prominent task has been to gain a deeper understanding of each other. To be more specific, I'm listening to everything she's saying about work, and really trying to empathize with how overwhelmed she is. I'm giving her more respect & concern in general on this subject. She is listening more to what I need from my work life, and how important it is for me to be involved in my company, despite the OW's presence. Neither of us are completely comfortable with the other's work needs, but the listening & understanding has seriously helped us to be more patient & tolerant & compromising, and to work through the tough issues. On the interpersonal level, we have made small progress. I would call the state of our relationship guarded but promising. I can't say we're anywhere close to being out of the woods, but we both seem to be walking in the same direction. She still has a TON to work through relating to both what I did and her pre-existing issues, as well as exactly what she expects from the future. And I am struggling to find picture of the future that makes complete sense. But for now I'm happy that we've regained a good deal of stability. There's so much more to say, but being in that murky middle makes it all a little jumbled in this old noggin. It's good to hear things are slowly getting better. It sounds like your marriage is more like Switzerland. However, that's better than the DMZ in Korea! Several months ago, that's how I would have characterized your marriage.
Author NickFeek Posted October 29, 2011 Author Posted October 29, 2011 It's good to hear things are slowly getting better. It sounds like your marriage is more like Switzerland. However, that's better than the DMZ in Korea! Several months ago, that's how I would have characterized your marriage. Two DEAD ON characterizations. I really want to get us to Italy or Spain, but Switzerland is far better than the DMZ!
2sunny Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 NickFeek;3701827Hi Fish & Finding Nemo (coincidental screen names!). I appreciate you checking in and/or reading through everything. It's nice to hear from the Forum from time to time. Things are not bad. We are in the murky middle. I can't claim to be super happy with how everything is going, and at times I'm troubled by our lack of progress. But at the moment our toughest & most prominent task has been to gain a deeper understanding of each other. To be more specific, I'm listening to everything she's saying about work, and really trying to empathize with how overwhelmed she is. I'm giving her more respect & concern in general on this subject. She is listening more to what I need from my work life, and how important it is for me to be involved in my company, despite the OW's presence. Neither of us are completely comfortable with the other's work needs, but the listening & understanding has seriously helped us to be more patient & tolerant & compromising, and to work through the tough issues. this is good that you two are communicating and listening... but what you need to add into the mix is more action. from your evidence - you two are masters at talking - but need more change in DOING. when you two implement more CHANGES into your daily structure - is when you will find that those former empty words can be showing evidence of why the person said them. words without the action feels very empty. IF one or the other is SAYING that they NEED something more from the marriage - spend extra time and energy PLANNING AS A COUPLE HOW to make sure IT HAPPENS! work on plans to change things - together! On the interpersonal level, we have made small progress. I would call the state of our relationship guarded but promising. are you taking YOUR truth to your wife? guarded seems odd - i thought you two were in this to grow? do you feel she is being honest with you? where is the "guarded" coming from? put your truth out there... deal with what's real - it just may help you two get to a better level. I can't say we're anywhere close to being out of the woods, but we both seem to be walking in the same direction. She still has a TON to work through relating to both what I did and her pre-existing issues, as well as exactly what she expects from the future. And I am struggling to find picture of the future that makes complete sense. But for now I'm happy that we've regained a good deal of stability. There's so much more to say, but being in that murky middle makes it all a little jumbled in this old noggin. counseling has been going on for a while now - i would expect that some of her bigger issues would have been addressed - and change implemented to see if things could change... are you two into the action part of all this or still just empty words like before? is she still trying to hang on to the control and power? are you allowing her this still?
Author NickFeek Posted November 1, 2011 Author Posted November 1, 2011 that still doesn't necessarily change a thing. talk is cheap - action is everything. you could spend the next 50 years talking and not doing anything specific to change it. IF she doesn't intend to BE home- PARTICIPATING in the family on a daily basis - move her out. THAT is change. and she MIGHT get motivated to EARN her way back into the house by BEING home more often! since she's never there - quit pretending she is - simply move her out so your mind understands she NOT going to be present and participating. all this pretending has gotten you nothing. so stop pretending. no sex and a wife who is constantly working isn't a marriage at all. she married her work. so let her have what she married = her work. it's not fair to you or your kids that she's married to her work. she's cheating the family out of a wife and mother by working. get over the idea that divorce is a no no. she doesn't intend to be married - she married her work. let her have what she's cheating with. to pretend that she's a wife and Mom when she's never home or present to be supportive is just staying stuck in complete denial. I always respect your point of view, but if you know and have known that I completely disagree with you on the talk subject - that talk can be productive, and that for any real & lasting relationship it's necessary - then you really should just set that issue aside. We will never see eye to eye on it, so there's really no point in bringing it up again. What my wife & I have learned through talking, & through FEELING what we're talking about and allowing that to affect how we live, is absolutely priceless and will serve to build whatever it is we're working towards. It's not pretending if we know exactly where we are. To expect it to be how WE BOTH want it now is silly. It's just a pipe dream for you to believe that ONE person who is a part of TWO people interacting in such a complex way can just say "this is how I want things to be right now, and anything short of that means we are through". I know full well where we are isn't where we want to be. But like the other poster here said, Switzerland is a far cry from the DMZ. We have accomplished EXACTLY what I wanted the next step to be, which is for us to have reestablished a solid & stable base from which we can build an ACTUAL healthy relationship. It's not an end, it's a step. It's a means to an end. Ugh, this is exhausting.
2sunny Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 I always respect your point of view, but if you know and have known that I completely disagree with you on the talk subject - that talk can be productive, and that for any real & lasting relationship it's necessary - then you really should just set that issue aside. We will never see eye to eye on it, so there's really no point in bringing it up again. What my wife & I have learned through talking, & through FEELING what we're talking about and allowing that to affect how we live, is absolutely priceless and will serve to build whatever it is we're working towards. It's not pretending if we know exactly where we are. To expect it to be how WE BOTH want it now is silly. It's just a pipe dream for you to believe that ONE person who is a part of TWO people interacting in such a complex way can just say "this is how I want things to be right now, and anything short of that means we are through". I know full well where we are isn't where we want to be. But like the other poster here said, Switzerland is a far cry from the DMZ. We have accomplished EXACTLY what I wanted the next step to be, which is for us to have reestablished a solid & stable base from which we can build an ACTUAL healthy relationship. It's not an end, it's a step. It's a means to an end. Ugh, this is exhausting. how old is that post of mine? that seems odd to bring back old posts and is unproductive at this juncture. i didn't say that today... i said take more action ----> that corresponds with the words you two are using. i don't intend to move backwards... moving forward takes constant change - and change is good.
2sunny Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 this is good that you two are communicating and listening... but what you need to add into the mix is more action. from your evidence - you two are masters at talking - but need more change in DOING. when you two implement more CHANGES into your daily structure - is when you will find that those former empty words can be showing evidence of why the person said them. words without the action feels very empty. IF one or the other is SAYING that they NEED something more from the marriage - spend extra time and energy PLANNING AS A COUPLE HOW to make sure IT HAPPENS! work on plans to change things - together are you taking YOUR truth to your wife? guarded seems odd - i thought you two were in this to grow? do you feel she is being honest with you? where is the "guarded" coming from? put your truth out there... deal with what's real - it just may help you two get to a better level. counseling has been going on for a while now - i would expect that some of her bigger issues would have been addressed - and change implemented to see if things could change... are you two into the action part of all this or still just empty words like before? is she still trying to hang on to the control and power? are you allowing her this still? this is what i typed today... i'm unsure why you took old info and brought it into today... and without addressing the things that were typed today... you didn't address the questions asked.
Author NickFeek Posted November 1, 2011 Author Posted November 1, 2011 this is what i typed today... i'm unsure why you took old info and brought it into today... and without addressing the things that were typed today... you didn't address the questions asked. Crap I am sooooo sorry. My browser jumped to that post for some reason, and without checking I assumed it was the latest. My deepest apologies. I'm checking your ACTUAL recent post now & answering.
Author NickFeek Posted November 1, 2011 Author Posted November 1, 2011 this is good that you two are communicating and listening... but what you need to add into the mix is more action. from your evidence - you two are masters at talking - but need more change in DOING. when you two implement more CHANGES into your daily structure - is when you will find that those former empty words can be showing evidence of why the person said them. words without the action feels very empty. IF one or the other is SAYING that they NEED something more from the marriage - spend extra time and energy PLANNING AS A COUPLE HOW to make sure IT HAPPENS! work on plans to change things - together! are you taking YOUR truth to your wife? guarded seems odd - i thought you two were in this to grow? do you feel she is being honest with you? where is the "guarded" coming from? put your truth out there... deal with what's real - it just may help you two get to a better level. counseling has been going on for a while now - i would expect that some of her bigger issues would have been addressed - and change implemented to see if things could change... are you two into the action part of all this or still just empty words like before? is she still trying to hang on to the control and power? are you allowing her this still? These are all great questions. To address the first part of your post, I agree we have to turn our words/talk into actions. We've been very successful at this on some fronts, not so much on others. This one sentence probably explains/answers everything else you asked. I have a list we came up with & I wrote down on August 1, and we are hitting a lot of the little items but not very many of the big ones. Now, onto the questions: I am taking my truth to my wife in increments. More accurately, she has heard all of my truths in the last 6-8 months. Some of which she's absorbed. Some I'm pretty sure she's blocking out of fear/worry. Because she's going through really heavy emotional stuff, I'm taking care not to sandblast her with truths so she doesn't crumble under the pressure. She IS being honest with me, but it's very mercurial. One week she'll feel so down she wants to leave & feels she'll never get over the hurt & betrayal. Another week she's much more positive about everything. This is not uncommon in a crisis, so I've learned to weather it. What I'm concerned about is how truthful she's being with herself regarding what she's willing to do & see for the future. I'm not sure after all this time that we've nailed that down yet. The "guarded" is coming from all of the above, but it's mostly coming from the fact that until I see our actions taking effect on the BIG issues, I can't completely trust we are out of the woods. As above, we are in the action part on lots of little but significant things, and not nearly as consistent or effective on the big ones. Lots of fear there on her part. The doctor REALLY wants her to open up more about herself, her past before us, her past with me, pretty much anything. She's doing this more & more - many of our sessions she talks at least 30 minutes & I like it that way - I need to hear MORE from her too. But neither the doc nor I feel like she's really hitting the red meat. Sadly, yes to both of your last questions. I am retaining what power I need to remain sane & moderately satisfied & engaged in my life, but she is having a really hard time seeing things as anything but I royally screwed up & she (and our marriage) has been ruined in a way she's not sure she can get over. I try to remind her that all those weeks last year are not the definition of me as a person or our marriage as a whole, and she sees that some weeks. Other weeks it's pretty dire. BUT I still really want to be here & working on this & keeping the family intact. What I have to figure out is how to balance what I want/need here at home with what I want/need from life as a person, and how those two can coexist. Not there yet.
aniahunks Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Or maybe she's missing some part of you. Better if you ask her what is it.
2sunny Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 can you ask her what benefit she gains by holding on to her anger for you? it would be telling to see how she answers...
Author NickFeek Posted November 2, 2011 Author Posted November 2, 2011 Or maybe she's missing some part of you. Better if you ask her what is it. This is really intriguing, but I'm not sure what comment it refers to. Can you clarify?
Author NickFeek Posted November 2, 2011 Author Posted November 2, 2011 can you ask her what benefit she gains by holding on to her anger for you? it would be telling to see how she answers... Great idea, I will!
D87 Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 Sorry but I don't understand how a man can not go psychotic being married yet only having sex 6 times a year for 12+ years. This marriage is so beyond fixing that its laughable to even think about it. You only live once and you are basically wasting your life away in this marriage, and so is your wife, who is most likely having an affair.
Author NickFeek Posted November 3, 2011 Author Posted November 3, 2011 Sorry but I don't understand how a man can not go psychotic being married yet only having sex 6 times a year for 12+ years. This marriage is so beyond fixing that its laughable to even think about it. You only live once and you are basically wasting your life away in this marriage, and so is your wife, who is most likely having an affair. Believe me, we've been over this many times in this forum, and this is a major issue. There's more to the story than that, but my entire current effort is to make sure we don't waste the rest of our lives, so to speak. But I can tell you beyond a scintilla of a doubt that she is not having an affair. Her affair is with her job & the demons of her past, which sadly may both be harder to combat than an actual affair.
2sunny Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 Believe me, we've been over this many times in this forum, and this is a major issue. There's more to the story than that, but my entire current effort is to make sure we don't waste the rest of our lives, so to speak. But I can tell you beyond a scintilla of a doubt that she is not having an affair. Her affair is with her job & the demons of her past, which sadly may both be harder to combat than an actual affair. It really isn't different - except that you know about her job and YOU accept it. You may want the money and THAT is YOUR trade off. Her demons - yes, they seem to have affected your M in a big capacity. She may never be capable of participating the way you want to be loved - yet you accept it... At least for now. She knows what you want - and she's not anxious to move to that place. If and when she does... It may be for a multitude of reasons but she doesn't seem to be capable of getting to a place that she feels she deserves love, affection, freedom and wonderful sex. Seems she may have been more "willing" to open her mind to change when she thought you were leaving. Months now in counseling... Talk isn't anything without DOING everything that you two keep talking about. If the words and actions don't match - the lie is in there somewhere. She may not intend to get divorced - but does she even intend to participate as your wife and lover?
Author NickFeek Posted November 3, 2011 Author Posted November 3, 2011 It really isn't different - except that you know about her job and YOU accept it. You may want the money and THAT is YOUR trade off. Her demons - yes, they seem to have affected your M in a big capacity. She may never be capable of participating the way you want to be loved - yet you accept it... At least for now. She knows what you want - and she's not anxious to move to that place. If and when she does... It may be for a multitude of reasons but she doesn't seem to be capable of getting to a place that she feels she deserves love, affection, freedom and wonderful sex. Seems she may have been more "willing" to open her mind to change when she thought you were leaving. Months now in counseling... Talk isn't anything without DOING everything that you two keep talking about. If the words and actions don't match - the lie is in there somewhere. She may not intend to get divorced - but does she even intend to participate as your wife and lover? We've lived life without so much money, and if we could do it again and still keep the kids happy & healthy & educated, I would in a heartbeat. She would not, and has been very clear about that. I've heard lots of sides regarding her work hours, and I've been much better at integrating all those viewpoints, to the point where my wife is noticing a vast improvement in my communications with & respect towards her. As a response, she's been MUCH better about coming home earlier. Am I satisfied with that? Not really, and it's because her mental & emotional preoccupation with work have stayed the same - the old "here but not here" story. That ties right into the next point: her demons. The thing is, I have known about them since I was lucid enough to separate my demons from hers - at least 15 years let's say. I've tried to work with her on her terms. I've tried it on my terms. I've tried it on NO terms and on every term she'd allow. I've suggested therapy, treatment, sex counseling, or just simply OPENING UP TO ME. And I've also effed up monumentally many times over, so I haven't always helped her to feel comfortable enough to open up. And you're right - when she was nervous about me leaving, she was starting to open up to the idea of exploring all this. Then I compounded my cheating error by saying I was leaving, prompting her to discover more of the story of my affair. And that not only set us back six months, it gave her more fuel to stick to her guns, and less incentive to listen to my concerns. THAT'S why I insisted on counseling as the only way I'd stick around, and it's been one of the only things that has made an improvement. I figure this: We've been together since we were teens. If she's had hangups that long, it's not too much to ask of me to let this process play out over a period of several months rather than several weeks. Whatever it takes for it to happen I am up for. As long as it's not several years. As to that last question, I have a BIG decision to make. Do I stick around & accept whatever she's willing to give, with little hope of improvement? Do I jump ship & ditch our home & family life, sealing our fate forever? Or do I find a middle ground that works for me, that may not be super traditional but would keep everyone (including me) happy? I'm not a highly religious man, but when I DO pray I pray for three things: 1. Lift this burden from her (i.e. her pain, her need to be angry, her emotional blockages). 2. Help me put the pieces of this puzzle together (i.e. how do I find happiness both in & out of the home, career & personal, with such a complicated set of factors). 3. Help my kids swim through the undercurrent (i.e. so they don't get too emotionally distraught or burdened or damaged over all this). My daughter knows what happened now - she is very intuitive & basically had figured it out, so we made the decision to tell her for real so she wouldn't feel left out in the cold, and would know she could talk to either of us about anything at all.
2sunny Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 As long as YOU are more concerned about her getting better and "seeing" things differently - she's not likely to change. She holds a lot of power in staying angry with you. It gives her free reign to NOT change for the better ment of the M. As long as she holds onto that power like her life depends on it - there's not much room for positive change that could be happening. She IS road blocking it being good... Out of fear... There's no way YOU can take away HER fear. It would require her to give up her illusion that she is in control - and she given a lot of evidence that SHE is going to be in charge NO MATTER WHAT. Which includes YOU being her puppet. Yep - I said it. There it is. As long as you play this empty role she wants you to play = that is what she's happy ENOUGH with... She learned it this way and no one can MAKE her DO it differently. YOU either accept it (live with it this way) or you don't (leave). She's figuring you won't leave.
Author NickFeek Posted November 3, 2011 Author Posted November 3, 2011 She holds a lot of power in staying angry with you. It gives her free reign to NOT change for the better ment of the M. As long as she holds onto that power like her life depends on it - there's not much room for positive change that could be happening. She IS road blocking it being good... Out of fear... There's no way YOU can take away HER fear. It would require her to give up her illusion that she is in control - and she given a lot of evidence that SHE is going to be in charge NO MATTER WHAT. Which includes YOU being her puppet. She's figuring you won't leave. I excerpted the things that really struck me. I totally see that her righteous anger gives her license to stand her ground on all issues. What I also know is that she is well aware I will no longer settle for that. It may not seem like it because it's taking longer than we all wish, but that's where we're headed. And she'll either have to relent & come along, or live A. alone and/or B. a compromised life. I'm not going there with her. She's right that I won't leave, at least not now. You're right I am her puppet in some ways, but that's temporary. I am facilitating change as best I can by giving her what she wants. If at that point she is still unwilling to meet me halfway, there's nothing left to discuss.
2sunny Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 I hate honesty when I have to say it this way: You giving in to her negative approach has a lowered sense of what happy can/should look like. It could be better/easier IF she was required to live life without the fear... But you are lowering your sense of self by agreeing to go along with her negative path. Happiness can't be found by reducing to lower standards once you know what happy should feel like. This is betraying yourself - yet you are doing it thinking it will make her happy... YOU can't MAKE her be happy - only she can find that for herself (or she may not). Doesn't seem right to forego your happy - while waiting around for her to find what happy looks like. That self betrayal is bound to manifest negatively within you - it will kill your spirit... It will also show up as physical illness within.
Author NickFeek Posted November 3, 2011 Author Posted November 3, 2011 I hate honesty when I have to say it this way: You giving in to her negative approach has a lowered sense of what happy can/should look like. It could be better/easier IF she was required to live life without the fear... But you are lowering your sense of self by agreeing to go along with her negative path. Happiness can't be found by reducing to lower standards once you know what happy should feel like. This is betraying yourself - yet you are doing it thinking it will make her happy... YOU can't MAKE her be happy - only she can find that for herself (or she may not). Doesn't seem right to forego your happy - while waiting around for her to find what happy looks like. That self betrayal is bound to manifest negatively within you - it will kill your spirit... It will also show up as physical illness within. I'm not at all insulted by that, and in fact I thank you for being so direct. I may not be able to make her happy, but I can be a support for her. If part of that means I sacrifice some of my happiness, at least for a while, then that's okay. It's part of being in a complex relationship. Do I intend to do it for long? No way. But think of how much she has to deal with: her past & her demons, the history of our marriage, my infidelity & lack of respect toward her. It's daunting, and while we are still together I owe it to her as her partner to help her through this. What I expect in return is acknowledgement of our issues, and more than just a willingness to talk about them, but actual lasting changes. If I don't get that, I will move on, but at least I will first have helped her go as far as she can go.
2sunny Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 In my marriage I played a role that betrayed myself ... I would "dumb myself down" so my husband wouldn't feel my intelligence as a threat - so he would feel "better about himself" but it cost me something to betray myself that way. I see it here - you stooping down to her emotional level so she feels better, less insecure. It's a very unrealistic approach. You are reaching backwards... Because you KNOW she doesn't want to reveal her truth because she's stuck in her pain. So you are now stuck in the pain as well. Instead of skipping ahead where you KNOW in your gut you belong... You ran backwards to "help her" stay comfortable but stuck.
2sunny Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) Here's a recent thread that looks familiar... Read it - some people there show good reason to find some change through sex therapy - when they followed the "action portion of the homework assigned" Ah dang - I can't get it to copy... The posters name is Floridaman search for his thread, ok? http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253953 Ok - edited to try again - hope it works! Edited November 4, 2011 by 2sunny
Recommended Posts