he has yet to confirm our date TODAY

[Mad Max]

I need to trust my instincts about people[/i]. My first impression of him, which I actually posted on here before we hooked up, was dead on: that he was selfish, self-absorbed and arrogant. I even told my friend that I couldn't stand him after I first met him, and she agreed that he sucked (she met him at the same time). Every time I've first met someone, disliked them, then modified my negative impression, I've been burned later. Every single time without fail. I need to just trust myself and stop trying to win over aholes.

 

 

Instincts are almost always right. It also shows that cockiness is not a turnoff, despite what many will say.

[threebyfate]

I need to trust my instincts about people[/i]. My first impression of him, which I actually posted on here before we hooked up, was dead on: that he was selfish, self-absorbed and arrogant. I even told my friend that I couldn't stand him after I first met him, and she agreed that he sucked (she met him at the same time). Every time I've first met someone, disliked them, then modified my negative impression, I've been burned later. Every single time without fail. I need to just trust myself and stop trying to win over aholes.

:bunny:

 

The LS bunnies agree!!

[northern_sky]

Instincts are almost always right. It also shows that cockiness is not a turnoff, despite what many will say.

 

Well, not for me. I can't speak for other women. Also, my self esteem is low so I'm probably not a good example.

[westrock]

Refer to your second paragraph. It's a form of self-empowerment.

 

As far as healthy is concerned, depends on the situation and how often you do it. I have no problems with shoving a knife into someone who's been nothing but a dick to northern_sky.

 

I guess we see things differently. IME, having control is a false sense of empowerment and if someone is nothing but a dick, better to just walk away IMO than engage in game playing. But, I recongize that lots of people take the same approach as what you wrote and for many it works and provides them with comfort. Nothing wrong with that if it works and more power to them.

[BobSacamento]

Let me bring out my crystal ball to see what the future portends.

 

How would I know? But...it's been pointed out enough times to northern_sky, that she might learn something about her choices in men.

 

She's aware that she has a cycle of selecting a male prototype, one that's been counterproductive to her needs. I've personally pointed out to her more than once that playing the "proof" game is counterproductive. With this in mind, I'm more than willing to give Sky the benefit of the doubt for future. She's still in her mid-twenties so she's got more than enough time to work on this.

 

Well if you have no idea what could happen why encourage her in that behavior? Seems reckless.

[johan]

It appears to me like she walked right into it. Is attempting to turn the tables on this guy going to prevent it from happening it again?

 

The answer is no. It won't. I don't think it's productive, because it's not going to change his behavior or make n_s feel any better about herself or the situation. It will add a bit of negative feelings into the mix, and if it has no effect on him will remind n_s that she is powerless in this case. It can be thought of as a game, but it can't be won.

[threebyfate]

Well if you have no idea what could happen why encourage her in that behavior? Seems reckless.

I'm not encouraging her towards recycling behaviour. You need to read up on advice provided in this thread and the one before.

 

What was done in this thread, is quite different than what her previous cycle was.

[Kamille]

The cycle N_S keeps repeating is one where she isn't honest about her feelings, her wants and her needs. Instead of standing up confidently for herself, she plays passive-aggressive games, trying to twist herself into a pretzel to please a guy AND trying to "trick" guys into falling for her. I believe it could also explain why she has so many problems meeting a decent guy. It means 1) she wastes time on guys who aren't into relationships and 2) I'm willing to bet it means most guys don't know how to take her, who she is or what she really wants. In my experience, relationship-minded guys like women who can speak up for their own needs.

 

In her shoes, I would have flat out told the guy; "You forgot about me?! It's clear to me we aren't looking for the same thing. It was great getting to know you. Good luck".

 

I think it takes a lot more guts and a lot more confidence to be honest than it does to react in a passive-agressive way, all in the name of saving face. There is no control to be taken here and the only person N_S is accountable to is herself. I hope one day she learns to love herself enough so that she'll see there is no shame in feeling what she feels, asking for what she wants and speaking up in a mature non-agressive way when treated poorly.

[Star Gazer]

The cycle N_S keeps repeating is one where she isn't honest about her feelings, her wants and her needs. Instead of standing up confidently for herself, she plays passive-aggressive games, trying to twist herself into a pretzel to please a guy AND trying to "trick" guys into falling for her. I believe it could also explain why she has so many problems meeting a decent guy. It means 1) she wastes time on guys who aren't into relationships and 2) I'm willing to bet it means most guys don't know how to take her, who she is or what she really wants. In my experience, relationship-minded guys like women who can speak up for their own needs.

 

In her shoes, I would have flat out told the guy; "You forgot about me?! It's clear to me we aren't looking for the same thing. It was great getting to know you. Good luck".

 

I think it takes a lot more guts and a lot more confidence to be honest than it does to react in passive-agressive way, all in the name of saving face. There is no control to be taken here and the only person N_S is accountable to is herself. I hope one day she learns to love herself enough so that she'll see there is no shame in feeling what she feels, asking for what she wants and speaking up in a mature non-agressive way when treated poorly.

 

Great advice, and spot on.

[threebyfate]

The cycle N_S keeps repeating is one where she isn't honest about her feelings, her wants and her needs. Instead of standing up confidently for herself, she plays passive-aggressive games, trying to twist herself into a pretzel to please a guy AND trying to "trick" guys into falling for her. I believe it could also explain why she has so many problems meeting a decent guy. It means 1) she wastes time on guys who aren't into relationships and 2) I'm willing to bet it means most guys don't know how to take her, who she is or what she really wants. In my experience, relationship-minded guys like women who can speak up for their own needs.

 

In her shoes, I would have flat out told the guy; "You forgot about me?! It's clear to me we aren't looking for the same thing. It was great getting to know you. Good luck".

 

I think it takes a lot more guts and a lot more confidence to be honest than it does to react in a passive-agressive way, all in the name of saving face. There is no control to be taken here and the only person N_S is accountable to is herself. I hope one day she learns to love herself enough so that she'll see there is no shame in feeling what she feels, asking for what she wants and speaking up in a mature non-agressive way when treated poorly.

I don't disagree with some of what you're saying but the rest appears to be hindsight which is 20/20. The bolded two areas are conflicting. The above of what you've said IS aggressive and passive aggressive.

[Kamille]

I don't disagree with some of what you're saying but the rest appears to be hindsight which is 20/20. The bolded two areas are conflicting. The above of what you've said IS aggressive and passive aggressive.

 

I'm not emotionally invested in defending what I would have done and what I have done when put in similar situations. I'll just defend it once. I think it would have been honest on her part to say something like that. She was hurt he forgot and -hopefully- she does realize it means they don't want the same thing. I hope she does realize it means she has to ends things. Hence, it wouldn't have been passive agressive, it would have been honest.

 

I do agree however that hindsight is 20/20 and hesitated in posting my comment. I chose to post it precisely because hindsight is 20/20 and I hope hope hope she will be upfront about her emotional needs with the next guy she dates, even if it means facing potential rejection.

[threebyfate]

I'm not emotionally invested in defending what I would have done and what I have done when put in similar situations. I'll just defend it once. I think it would have been honest on her part to say something like that. She was hurt he forgot and -hopefully- she does realize it means they don't want the same thing. I hope she does realize it means she has to ends things. Hence, it wouldn't have been passive agressive, it would have been honest.

In this situation, he's already used and abused her. There's no purpose to honesty, only vulnerability. What you suggested she say was both aggressive and passive aggressive. You too need to own your portion if you want her to own her own of which she already has done more than once.

 

I do agree however that hindsight is 20/20 and hesitated in posting my comment. I chose to post it precisely because hindsight is 20/20 and I hope hope hope she will be upfront about her emotional needs with the next guy she dates, even if it means facing potential rejection.

We totally agree on this part.

[harmfulsweetz]

From what I've read, on this thread and the other "I feel like destroying this" thread, it seems like the guy is arrogant, and selfish. I don't think he played any games in that he was upfront about his wants, needs etc, they just conflicted with yours. Maybe in future, when you find out there's a conflict, it may be best (for you) to cut all ties then. It's hard when you like someone though, I know.

 

The fact that he didn't even bother to remember is pretty shocking, and I don't blame you for being mad at him. I'm glad you stopped the game playing though, it's just better to make a clean break and keep it simple, straight to the point and honest. No use in playing games because it makes you hang in limbo for a guy not worth a minute more of your time.

 

I think someone else said this either in this thread or the other one that you really need to start listening to what someone says about themselves. It'll help filter out the losers or simply the guys that want something different to you. If you want a relationship, look for relationship-orientated people. If not, look for likeminded people.

 

I'm very much like you though, in that, I don't feel I can stand up for myself when I'm being treated poorly because of low self-esteem, so I do relate. I have a habit of internalizing every bad treatment of me, and think it says more about me than it does them.

[Star Gazer]

In this situation, he's already used and abused her.

 

I totally disagree that he used her or abused her. He was honest about what he was offering, and Shadow/Sky merely signed up for it.

[threebyfate]

I totally disagree that he used her or abused her. He was honest about what he was offering, and Shadow/Sky merely signed up for it.

Do you mean like not telling her he had plans to move and some of the other little tidbits she's provided? He also led her to believe that while he was looking for something casual, anything was possible. Bait and hook. He's no angel. Far from it. So Sky doesn't need to own it all and I'm, as you can tell , firm about this.

[Star Gazer]

Do you mean like not telling her he had plans to move and some of the other little tidbits she's provided? He also led her to believe that while he was looking for something casual, anything was possible. Bait and hook. He's no angel. Far from it. So Sky doesn't need to own it all and I'm, as you can tell , firm about this.

 

As I said, he's been honest and upfront about what he wanted, and didn't want, from the get go. His actions never ever ever ever ever contradicted his words.

 

Anything is possible. That's always true. We shouldn't rely on distant possibilities, but instead should pay attention to what people tell us about themselves, particularly when what they show us matches.

 

I agree he's no angel, he's a selfish dweeb. But he never lied. He never used. He never abused. SHE retracted her "I don't want to date you if you're sleeping with/dating other people," knowing full well he was seeing other women. SHE chose to continue seeing him without having sex and just making out, to which he agreed. SHE chose to continue seeing him after he didn't tell her he was moving.

 

This was all HER choice. She chose him. She chose to engage him. She wanted to conquer him. She failed. She chose this pattern.

 

You can't use and abuse the willing. She was willing.

 

Any other suggestion amounts to "You did no wrong, Shadow/Sky. Yet again, it was all the guy's fault." And that is the most unhealthy way imaginable of looking at what happened here.

[threebyfate]

As I said, he's been honest and upfront about what he wanted, and didn't want, from the get go. His actions never ever ever ever ever contradicted his words.

 

Anything is possible. That's always true. We shouldn't rely on distant possibilities, but instead should pay attention to what people tell us about themselves, particularly when what they show us matches.

 

I agree he's no angel, he's a selfish dweeb. But he never lied. He never used. He never abused. SHE retracted her "I don't want to date you if you're sleeping with/dating other people," knowing full well he was seeing other women. SHE chose to continue seeing him without having sex and just making out, to which he agreed. SHE chose to continue seeing him after he didn't tell her he was moving.

 

This was all HER choice. She chose him. She chose to engage him. She chose this pattern.

 

You can't use and abuse the willing. She was willing.

 

Any other suggestion amounts to "You did no wrong, Shadow/Sky. Yet again, it was all the guy's fault." And that is the most unhealthy way imaginable of looking at what happened here.

Sure, Sky could easily have disengaged or better yet, never engaged the guy. But lying by omission isn't acceptable either (moving). And in accepting her back after she came back, he would have known that he held all the cards and still chose to use her. The guy played her and she fell for it. Both have their burden to bear.

[Star Gazer]

Sure, Sky could easily have disengaged or better yet, never engaged the guy. But lying by omission isn't acceptable either (moving). And in accepting her back after she came back, he would have known that he held all the cards and still chose to use her. The guy played her and she fell for it. Both have their burden to bear.

 

You quoted before I edited.

 

As I said, she wanted to conquer him, and she failed. She signed up for the game she thought he was playing, and she lost. She was a willing participant, and it's not realistic to claim she was used or abused when she gave her full consent to that mistreatment. He didn't use and abuse her, anymore than she used and abused him. Yes, they each have their burden to bear. But we should be a little more objective, and less knee jerk and retaliatory, about his faults and what he really did.

 

I also don't think not telling her directly that he was moving, yet publicly posting about it on FB knowing that she'd see it, amounts to lying - by omission or otherwise. He wasn't hiding anything from her. Again, he just didn't think she was important enough to him to inform.

[northern_sky]

You quoted before I edited.

 

As I said, she wanted to conquer him, and she failed. She signed up for the game she thought he was playing, and she lost. She was a willing participant, and it's not realistic to claim she was used or abused when she gave her full consent to that mistreatment. He didn't use and abuse her, anymore than she used and abused him. Yes, they each have their burden to bear. But we should be a little more objective, and less knee jerk and retaliatory, about his faults and what he really did.

 

I also don't think not telling her directly that he was moving, yet publicly posting about it on FB knowing that she'd see it, amounts to lying - by omission or otherwise. He wasn't hiding anything from her. Again, he just didn't think she was important enough to him to inform.

 

That's not true. He was really apologetic about not telling me and said he knew he should have but was avoiding bringing it up. He clearly knew he was wrong and he should have told me.

[threebyfate]

You quoted before I edited.

 

As I said, she wanted to conquer him, and she failed. She signed up for the game she thought he was playing, and she lost. She was a willing participant, and it's not realistic to claim she was used or abused when she gave her full consent to that mistreatment. He didn't use and abuse her, anymore than she used and abused him. Yes, they each have their burden to bear. But we should be a little more objective, and less knee jerk and retaliatory, about his faults and what he really did.

 

I also don't think not telling her directly that he was moving, yet publicly posting about it on FB knowing that she'd see it, amounts to lying - by omission or otherwise. He wasn't hiding anything from her. Again, he just didn't think she was important enough to him to inform.

I don't think it's necessary to be objective about him. He's a dick. He's not a member of LS asking for advice. Sky is the member and she's the one with my sympathies and concern. Sky's the one who's hurting so I'd rather repair her pain, than give this dick any benefit of a doubt.

 

In my opinion, he's a loser and doesn't deserve anything beyond getting a knife stuck into him.

[Star Gazer]

That's not true. He was really apologetic about not telling me and said he knew he should have but was avoiding bringing it up. He clearly knew he was wrong and he should have told me.

 

And you believe him? Why?

 

Why is he a good guy when it makes it look like he's into you and cares about you, and a bad guy when he doesn't? The cycle continues...

 

BTW... I was just thinking, "Oh crap, she's not around... I hope she didn't cave and go out with him tonight!" Glad to see you're still around!!

[Kamille]

I think we can all agree that we all want N_S to stop being in pain. We just think there are different paths to healing and breaking cycles. I fully trust N_S will take what we say in consideration and decide what is best for her.

[Star Gazer]

I don't think it's necessary to be objective about him. He's a dick. He's not a member of LS asking for advice. Sky is the member and she's the one with my sympathies and concern. Sky's the one who's hurting so I'd rather repair her pain, than give this dick any benefit of a doubt.

 

That's where our styles totally differ. IMO, objectivity is critical. She doesn't get the better side of the story simply because she's here and he's not. Otherwise, you have a dangerous slippery slope into typical LS-coddling.

 

And it's not about giving him the benefit of the doubt anymore. It's about having Shadow own her part in this. Forget about him, focus on the internal, and how SHE can do better next time.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Star Gazer

[threebyfate]

I think we can all agree that we all want N_S to stop being in pain. We just think there are different paths to healing and breaking cycles. I fully trust N_S will take what we say in consideration and decide what is best for her.

 

That's where our styles totally differ. IMO, objectivity is critical. She doesn't get the better side of the story simply because she's here and he's not. Otherwise, you have a dangerous slippery slope into typical LS-coddling.

Straight up ladies, tough love has adverse effects on Sky. Haven't you guys noticed this by now?

[northern_sky]

Straight up ladies, tough love has adverse effects on Sky. Haven't you guys noticed this by now?

 

It's true. Tough love only makes me feel like crap. I respond more positively to encouragement. I ended things with J, so I wish you guys would encourage me rather than nitpicking exactly how I ended it. That is progress for me, even if I have a ways to go. Baby steps.