a realization

[bac]

I had some jobs done. Some were good, some were not a big improvement.

If the jobs are good, they do help your self-esteem a lot.

You feel much better about yourself. But, the jobs(= good looks) can not help you to find the right man. Perhaps, they are helpful to find the wrong guy who is shallow and wants NSA, ONSs, FWBs. But, I am not sure about that because the wrong guys would do any woman anyway who lets them f...k her.

Good looks attract men sexually. Men do not associate sex with love or emotional connection.

If a girl is beautiful, a man wants to have sex with her. Then, if he is having sex with a beautiful girl for a long period of time (1 yr or more), he would stop seeing her as beautiful and desirable, unless he loves her.

If a man loves a girl, he sees her as she is beautiful and desirable no matter how long their relationship lasts and no matter her real appearance is.

 

From what I know, the only thing that is working for finding the right man is to look for him in the right places. Online is the worst place to look for a relationship. In fact, it is a place where the worst guys in the area are shopping for getting laid. How can it be possible to find the right man online, if he is not there? All women who I have known could find true love either at work or at places where they shared the same interests (sports or whatever) with the guys.

 

One of my friends has very bad deformity of her face and eyes. She is in her 40s and she looks much older. She has never had any PS. But, she has a bunch of interests including many types of sports. A few yrs ago, she met an attractive medical doctor at a boating club or smth like that. They became friends because they had many many interests in common, then, they fell in love and now they live together and they are so happy.

[shadowplay]

I had some jobs done. Some were good, some were not a big improvement.

If the jobs are good, they do help your self-esteem a lot.

You feel much better about yourself. But, the jobs(= good looks) can not help you to find the right man. Perhaps, they are helpful to find the wrong guy who is shallow and wants NSA, ONSs, FWBs. But, I am not sure about that because the wrong guys would do any woman anyway who lets them f...k her.

Good looks attract men sexually. Men do not associate sex with love or emotional connection.

If a girl is beautiful, a man wants to have sex with her. Then, if he is having sex with a beautiful girl for a long period of time (1 yr or more), he would stop seeing her as beautiful and desirable, unless he loves her.

If a man loves a girl, he sees her as she is beautiful and desirable no matter how long their relationship lasts and no matter her real appearance is.

 

From what I know, the only thing that is working for finding the right man is to look for him in the right places. Online is the worst place to look for a relationship. In fact, it is a place where the worst guys in the area are shopping for getting laid. How can it be possible to find the right man online, if he is not there? All women who I have known could find true love either at work or at places where they shared the same interests (sports or whatever) with the guys.

 

One of my friends has very bad deformity of her face and eyes. She is in her 40s and she looks much older. She has never had any PS. But, she has a bunch of interests including many types of sports. A few yrs ago, she met an attractive medical doctor at a boating club or smth like that. They became friends because they had many many interests in common, then, they fell in love and now they live together and they are so happy.

 

If you don't mind my asking what kind of surgery have you had, and which procedures made the most difference in terms of your dating life and self esteem?

[Anela]

I have known of a few people who met their spouses online, but they weren't on dating sites, they gradually got to know each other through their posts, then started to talk on Skype... they weren't looking, though.

[Sanman]

Shadow,

 

I am going to echo the disappointment in this choice that other posters have already stated. I think the question you need to ask yourself is what you are looking for. In my journey, I have never found that I could answer that question without first figuring out who I am. You are wrapped up in blaming yourself for being rejected by the idealized versions of men that you barely know. While you seem to believe that men you want you are rejecting you because of your looks, are you sure they are really the men that you want. I am not discounting attraction, but the truly honorable men I have had the pleasure to befriend in this lifetime have never been obsessed with looks. They look for a companion who they can be happy with and as long as there is enough physical/sexual attraction they are set. Ask yourself this...if you do get this man with your 'enhanced' beauty, will you be anxious about keeping it up for the rest of your life so that he will not leave you? Will YOU feel comfortable and secure in the relationship? My gf has some slightly crooked teeth and I find her smile one of the most beautiful things about her, an individual quirk that I love just as much (maybe more) than her more conventionally nice features.

 

I suggest that you do find a circle of friends that you enjoy and feel comfortable with if you haven't already done so. Then, look at the qualities those people have and find the kind of man that embodies those characteristics.

[VeveCakes]

These guys are finding your personality unattractive, not your face. You need to realize that it is YOU that is creating your own problems, not your appearance.

[Star Gazer]

If you don't mind my asking what kind of surgery have you had, and which procedures made the most difference in terms of your dating life and self esteem?

 

Did you even read what bac said?? PS isn't going to help you date and find a relationship!

 

These guys are finding your personality unattractive, not your face. You need to realize that it is YOU that is creating your own problems, not your appearance.

 

+1,000,000^1,000,000

[Kamille]

I don't understand #4-#5 on your list. He told me to initiate the third date. He said: "just tell me when/where?" It was clear at this point he didn't want to put in effort. I never proposed the lame stay at home date. All I said is we should play scrabble/boggle. Then I asked him where he wanted to play and he didn't answer me. I then suggested x cafe, and he didn't respond to that. Finally, I was just like so which is it a cafe or your place, and that's when he responded.

 

You're right. The guy didn't make any effort and told you to set up the next date. You suggested playing board games, something which I would interpret as : "Your place or mine".

 

You admitted yourself that you set up the date because you were just relieved that he wrote back to you indicating he still wanted to see you. You soon started doubting whether this was a good idea or not.

 

Your threads have made me realize that accepting rejection gracefully is a healthy part of dating. Once you can accept rejection, you won't be so focused on trying to make sure men you hardly know like you. Or relieved when men you hardly show send you a signal that they like you enough to keep texting with you. All that happened with this last guy is that he wasn't that into you. I think part of the reason he passed you up is because you didn't put your best foot forward. You let your insecurities guide how you responded and acted with him. But, it could also have nothing to do with you and everything to do with the fact that this guy is currently not looking for anything serious.

 

For the next few guys you date, focus on accepting they don't have to like you. Rejection doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you, it only means the lame dates are pulling themselves out of the competition. Focus on allowing men to show you they're interested by letting them take the lead. Don't let your insecurities prompt you to text them first or be thankful if they show mild interest.

 

 

To answer your final question, probably there's some connection. But the biggest effect may have been living with a beloved uncle for a year (when my father was gone, separated from my mother). I adored him, and he gave me a lot more attention than my father. He's a great person in many ways, but he's incredibly superficial when it comes to women. I was ten at the time, and he was constantly picking apart the appearance of women in front of me. In the car, we used to rate women walking down the street, and he had made special words for women who were really obese, women who were slightly overweight, women who looked good from a distance but bad up close. He also asked me to keep an eye out for hot women for him, so I'd get excited when I saw a pretty woman walking down the street that I could tell him about.

 

I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be to overcome that experience. Were your parents aware this was happening? Have you ever talked to them about it, whether at the time or later on in life? And how is your uncle now? Is he with someone?

[dispatch3d]

For me I look at looks as there or not. If it's not then it's not really going to happen.

 

If they are there then there is some level of attraction there.

 

The better looking girls are the more than can (usually) get away with so I like the really good looking ones despite x where the not as attractive one I wouldn't like anymore if she did x/had x flaw.

 

Assume Girl A and Girl B are both good looking enough. However, Girl A is better looking than B. Then I would hit on A and not B.

 

These are subjective as well. Say girl A B C D E F are all good looking enough. They are ranked according to the order I set them (A is the best, B 2nd, C 3rd etc.)

 

If they are in the same group, all things being equal I would hit on A then B then C etc. However, it's unlikely I would hit on C if I proceeded in this order and I wouldn't hit on D I don't think, definitely not E, etc. I'd say most guys are like this. Afterall, you don't want ALL of your friends rejecting a guy and then you get to go out with him....lame!

 

Generally in above scenario I would go talk to all the girls and avoid looking like I'm hitting on them (all that actually matters) to figure out which one I liked (personality wise) the most. Mind you I'd likely chose from A-D rather than A-F. Just take from this that you shouldn't hang out in groups of SIX girls ;-).

[bac]

If you don't mind my asking what kind of surgery have you had, and which procedures made the most difference in terms of your dating life and self esteem?

 

I did jobs only for my face. The lasik eye surgery was important because of eye contact and the ability to see a man. If you have the eyes/lids problems, the fat injections are good for that. But, it is just a generalization because I have no idea of the problems you have. It has helped me with my self-esteem, but it did not change my personality and my behavior. I can relate to all things that you experience. My dating life has not changed because of the procedures.

I am in the same situation as you have described with the guy who kind of used you. It does not matter for men that I look good or not, they still want to use me for sex and I have never met any guy who would have any real emotional attachment to me.

But, I have several friends who look unattractive for many different reasons and they have amazing husbands, who have it all, and the husbands really care for them and the men believe that the women are attractive and valuable.

 

In other words, the procedures did not change the most important outcome of dating which is finding a guy who would love me and who I would love too.

I did not come even close to that goal. I have never met in my life any man who would really care for me. It feels for me totally impossible to find the guy.

 

The point is that men would want you at first because you look attractive.

From my experience, then, they will pick up on your behavior which says that you are not valuable and somehow defective. They will internalize your behavior's signals and therefore they will internalize the idea that you are not valuable. So, they will unconsiously deny your attractiviness because of the belief that you are somehow defective.

What men believe is much stronger than what they can see IRL. The concept of beauty is just an idea(belief) in the mind.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bac

[florence of suburbia]

Shadow, it was Spookie who had it right in one of your other threads. Your discomfort makes other people uncomfortable. They can read it in your body language. People are attracted to warmth and openness. You send vibes for people to stay away from you, so they do. It has nothing to do with facial bone structure, your weight, or your teeth. If feeling better about your teeth would make you smile more though, then having them fixed might be a good idea.

[SadandConfusedWA]

I only ever had Botox done (started at 29 which many will think is too early) and I found I didn't need it anymore after 3 sessions. My mum kind of pushed me into it as she kept pointing out my frown lines in certain lights.

 

After my "frown musecles" have been parylized for months due to Botox, I am now finding it that I have "forgotten how to use them" even though I have the full movement back. Weird.

 

I also had Zoom teeth whitening. I would consider a nose job (my tip is too rounded) and having my boobs reduced and/or lifted slightly.

 

Can you possibly link to some pictures of women that have hollowness around the eyes? I am not quite sure what that looks like.

 

BUT, I really don't think any of those things will help much dating-wise. I know so well how rejection can tear you apart and how you start doubting everything about yourself.

 

I think that your thinking is clouded by aftershocks of this guy. I know that we both feel everything so deeply and even couple of dates can hugely affect us.

 

Realistically, this guy was after something casual and you simply became too emotionally heavy for him. If he didn't find you attractive, he WOULDN'T have made out with you for 45 minutes on the first date. He wouldn't have gotten so uhm excited during it. If he wasn't attracted to you, he would have been looking to end the date early and never see you again. He WAS physically attracted to you but the thing is, when the guys get so much as whiff of anything "crazy" that early on, they run for the hills. Not saying that you are crazy at all, just that our over-reactions to things can come across that way.

 

Wait it out with the plastic surgery ideas, at least until after you are thinking a bit more clearly. I tend to force myself not to make any decisions when I am in that emotionally shattered place.

 

As for the other OKC guy, you should meet him only if you can go into it with "meh see if I like him" attitude.

 

If you could only see how amazing you really are Shadow...

[a_woman]

I think you know that your awkwardness is the issue, not your looks. You are still young, professional help could get you very far.

[xpaperxcutx]

S_P, I'm really beginning to wonder whether you truly wish to seek advice or if you're only seeking for posters who agree with you. Alot of people ( including Kamille, S_G, etc) have all stated the obvious- plastic surgery is not the solution- but you seem to bypass the more constructive ones for posters that correlate and feed into your insecurities.

[CLC2008]

Shadow, you've already attained some personal goals, from what I've read.

 

Yay!

 

Everyone likes to garner attention in some form, and as long as it's not at the expense of another person's feelings, you're fine.

 

Just keep focusing on yourself, hopefully the rest will fall into place.

[gypsy_nicky]

I think the plastic surgery option is a good call with limits.

 

Enhancing your looks does lead to increased esteem but trying to look or attain an unattainable ideal is unhealthy. Michael Jackson's a good example. If he didn't go overboard with the bleaching skin and nose re-shaping he would've been very handsome.

 

Not really major plastic surgery but I had my jaw and teeth fixed when I was younger and it did help me out a lot in terms of how people perceive me physically.

[Mme. Chaucer]

What makes me sad is often the guys who reject me will advertise themselves as deep, intellectual, romantic types who are looking for a similar woman. But then they seem to dismiss me very superficially without getting to know me at all. It's like they have all these "poetic" ideals, yet I never fit anywhere into them. It's always some other girl.

 

I know it's silly, but it hurt me that the guy I liked on OKC always had these romantic, wistful statuses on im, excerpts from a poem, often in relation to love. All that is reserved for some other girl, but he quickly decided I was worthy of only subpar treatment.

 

Shadow, so you say ...

 

but you yourself resort to the superficial very fast; faster that most of the intellectual deep people I know. This stab at solving your dating woes with plastic surgery is an example.

 

I am not against modifications. I am STRONGLY against someone with your self esteem issues choosing them as a "fix" for emotional problems. NOT going to work, Shadow.

[shadowplay]

I only ever had Botox done (started at 29 which many will think is too early) and I found I didn't need it anymore after 3 sessions. My mum kind of pushed me into it as she kept pointing out my frown lines in certain lights.

 

After my "frown musecles" have been parylized for months due to Botox, I am now finding it that I have "forgotten how to use them" even though I have the full movement back. Weird.

 

I also had Zoom teeth whitening. I would consider a nose job (my tip is too rounded) and having my boobs reduced and/or lifted slightly.

 

Can you possibly link to some pictures of women that have hollowness around the eyes? I am not quite sure what that looks like.

 

BUT, I really don't think any of those things will help much dating-wise. I know so well how rejection can tear you apart and how you start doubting everything about yourself.

 

I think that your thinking is clouded by aftershocks of this guy. I know that we both feel everything so deeply and even couple of dates can hugely affect us.

 

Realistically, this guy was after something casual and you simply became too emotionally heavy for him. If he didn't find you attractive, he WOULDN'T have made out with you for 45 minutes on the first date. He wouldn't have gotten so uhm excited during it. If he wasn't attracted to you, he would have been looking to end the date early and never see you again. He WAS physically attracted to you but the thing is, when the guys get so much as whiff of anything "crazy" that early on, they run for the hills. Not saying that you are crazy at all, just that our over-reactions to things can come across that way.

 

Wait it out with the plastic surgery ideas, at least until after you are thinking a bit more clearly. I tend to force myself not to make any decisions when I am in that emotionally shattered place.

 

As for the other OKC guy, you should meet him only if you can go into it with "meh see if I like him" attitude.

 

If you could only see how amazing you really are Shadow...

 

Thanks Sad. Did you see any improvement in how guys treated you after those procedures (whitening plus botox)? Just curious.

[shadowplay]

just did a quick experiment.

 

I deleted two of my old profiles from my OKCupid account, and put a new picture up. This one I think is exactly how I look in real life. The others looked like me too, but I was worried they may have been a tad bit flattering. I even asked my friend and he said it looks just like me and it's a nice photo. Surprise, surprise. The amount of messages I got yesterday plummeted. Also, I noticed this guy I had been corresponding with was taking forever to respond to my last message about meeting. He probably saw my new photo and had second thoughts, who knows.

 

So just now I added back my old photos, and buried the new photo farther down so it wasn't my avatar. Almost instantly I got a wink. I'm sure I'll be getting a bunch of new messages as well.

 

I think I have my answer.

 

It's sad, because I thought that new photo was attractive, but I guess how i look in real life doesn't cut it.

 

I'm disabling my account. I can't deal with the superficiality inherent in dating right now. I know the world is superficial, but I don't need it constantly waved in my face.

[lino]

Even if you get plastic surgery, it will not help you at all. I'd bet anything on it... And I haven't even seen a picture of you, unlike many others on here.

 

2) making friends

 

 

More than 3 years ago when I used to follow a lot of what you wrote here because I had sympathy for you, I advised you to do this on several occasions.

I haven't yet seen you write about any genuine attempts you made in forming new friendships.

I don't visit this site as much as I once did but everytime I do, all I ever see from you are threads about trying to get this or that guy to like/love you, as if you have nothing else going on in your life other than desperately trying to be some blokes chick.

 

 

Are you actually going to follow this advise this time or continue this cycle you've been going through for over 3 years now?

[shadowplay]

Even if you get plastic surgery, it will not help you at all. I'd bet anything on it... And I haven't even seen a picture of you, unlike many others on here.

 

 

 

 

More than 3 years ago when I used to follow a lot of what you wrote here because I had sympathy for you, I advised you to do this on several occasions.

I haven't yet seen you write about any genuine attempts you made in forming new friendships.

I don't visit this site as much as I once did but everytime I do, all I ever see from you are threads about trying to get this or that guy to like/love you, as if you have nothing else going on in your life other than desperately trying to be some blokes chick.

 

 

Are you actually going to follow this advise this time or continue this cycle you've been going through for over 3 years now?

 

Uh, actually I have been trying to make friends for the past six months and I have made some "light" friendships, one of whom is my housemate. Nothing that's really clicked perfectly, though.

[melodymatters]

Lovely line, but the last part stood out to me: "a state of spirit that perhaps marked most sharply how poor you might become when you minded so much the absence of wealth"

 

Now replace that with "How poor you might become when you minded so much the absence (or percieved absence) of outward beauty ?"

 

In other words It's the percieved lack, not the actual lacking !!!!

 

In my early 20's I "lost" many a lad to chunkier, larger nosed woman as they oozed warmth and fun and confidence, and I was suffering through an eating disorder and a ton of self hate. Now, in my early 40's, I get hit on constantly because I'm warm and sparkly and friendly, NOT because my body or facial features have "improved".

[florence of suburbia]

In my early 20's I "lost" many a lad to chunkier, larger nosed woman as they oozed warmth and fun and confidence, and I was suffering through an eating disorder and a ton of self hate. Now, in my early 40's, I get hit on constantly because I'm warm and sparkly and friendly, NOT because my body or facial features have "improved".

 

Exactly.

 

......

[Mme. Chaucer]

Regarding attention seeking:

 

No, I'm really not. A lot of the time posting is sort of like journal entry writing for me. It helps me sort out my thoughts.

 

If serves the same purpose as journal writing ... why not journal write?

 

I'm sorry, but I have to concur that it seems like attention seeking. After your plethora of threads and all the responses you have received, do you honestly believe that this one is going to get positive responses? Aside from a possible exception for SAC ('cause you two are evidently identical), I believe that anyone who has been involved in your life via LS who says "great idea! Those dark hollows under your eyes are absolutely the problem! Get those fixed right up and guys will be all over you!" would be messing with you.

 

No, all your friends, supporters and even detractors here will say "clearly your problems won't be solved by plastic surgery." Just like we all said about losing 6 pounds before your first meeting with OKC guy. And if you even bother to READ what other people post unless you can tell by first skim that it isn't supporting what you are up to, you already KNOW this.

 

So why post this?

 

For attention.

 

Shadow, as someone already said, that's not really so bad. If you need all this outside validation so desperately, this is a safe place to get it. Dating is NOT a safe place to get it. And, forgive me if this sounds harsh, but a person who needs as much attention, drama, validation as you seem to is not really very attractive to other people. Nobody "healthy" wants to step up to try to fill an apparently unfillable void. That is YOUR job, and that's the work YOU need to do on YOURSELF to make yourself ready to take care of YOURSELF in a relationship, as well as to BE a good partner in a relationship.

[eerie_reverie]

Shadow... you know I love you, but your recent slew of posts reek of crazy.

 

Not to be harsh, but the reason you are failing to attract guys is because you're not comfortable in your own skin. Literally changing said skin, though, is not going to make you love yourself.

 

The reason you are failing to keep the guys you DO attract is because of your behavior, which oscillates between bat-**** crazy and doormat.

 

Examples bat-**** crazy:

 

-getting drunk before dates

-having sex when you don't want to and then stopping in the middle

 

Examples dormat:

-not punching your ex in the face when he told you you were hotter 3.5 years ago

-offering NSA sex after rejections

 

You NEED to find a way to fix your low self-esteem, but plastic surgery is NOT the answer.

[Star Gazer]

S_P, I'm really beginning to wonder whether you truly wish to seek advice or if you're only seeking for posters who agree with you. Alot of people ( including Kamille, S_G, etc) have all stated the obvious- plastic surgery is not the solution- but you seem to bypass the more constructive ones for posters that correlate and feed into your insecurities.

 

Exactly right.

 

In a weird way, it's almost as though Shadow WANTS to be insecure.

 

Regarding attention seeking:

 

 

 

If serves the same purpose as journal writing ... why not journal write?

 

I'm sorry, but I have to concur that it seems like attention seeking. After your plethora of threads and all the responses you have received, do you honestly believe that this one is going to get positive responses? Aside from a possible exception for SAC ('cause you two are evidently identical), I believe that anyone who has been involved in your life via LS who says "great idea! Those dark hollows under your eyes are absolutely the problem! Get those fixed right up and guys will be all over you!" would be messing with you.

 

No, all your friends, supporters and even detractors here will say "clearly your problems won't be solved by plastic surgery." Just like we all said about losing 6 pounds before your first meeting with OKC guy. And if you even bother to READ what other people post unless you can tell by first skim that it isn't supporting what you are up to, you already KNOW this.

 

So why post this?

 

For attention.

 

Shadow, as someone already said, that's not really so bad. If you need all this outside validation so desperately, this is a safe place to get it. Dating is NOT a safe place to get it. And, forgive me if this sounds harsh, but a person who needs as much attention, drama, validation as you seem to is not really very attractive to other people. Nobody "healthy" wants to step up to try to fill an apparently unfillable void. That is YOUR job, and that's the work YOU need to do on YOURSELF to make yourself ready to take care of YOURSELF in a relationship, as well as to BE a good partner in a relationship.

 

Great post...

 

Shadow... you know I love you, but your recent slew of posts reek of crazy.

 

Not to be harsh, but the reason you are failing to attract guys is because you're not comfortable in your own skin. Literally changing said skin, though, is not going to make you love yourself.

 

The reason you are failing to keep the guys you DO attract is because of your behavior, which oscillates between bat-**** crazy and doormat.

 

Examples bat-**** crazy:

 

-getting drunk before dates

-having sex when you don't want to and then stopping in the middle

 

Examples dormat:

-not punching your ex in the face when he told you you were hotter 3.5 years ago

-offering NSA sex after rejections

 

You NEED to find a way to fix your low self-esteem, but plastic surgery is NOT the answer.

 

Spot on, whomever you are...