How To Stop Being The Nice Guy?

[GorillaTheater]

I'm hell on spammers, but I think Jeff is a cut above the usual run. He's honest about the marketing aspect, and I like the way he engages with other posters. And I think his advice on this thread is generally good. I haven't been in the game for a long time, but I remember being the mope who screwed up by getting too attached (and too smothering) too quickly. I had to learn the hard way through trial and error. Maybe that's the way most of us have to learn, but nothing wrong with someone giving some good advice in the meantime. Even if he makes his living at it.

[Jeff M Stevens]

You said it better than I ever could. I am a real person that does have something to say. I don't want to ever hide that I do want people to visit my show and articles as I put a lot into both of them.

 

I think people, as you indicated in so many words, will respect that as long as you're transparent about it.

 

At any rate, I am humbled and grateful for your response.

 

I promise that I will give all meat and no potatoes when I wander into these forums and put my articles up as food for thought. If people decide to visit other stuff I have, that's great but my main thrust will always be to post things on the forums that allow for debate that people will get something out of. Based on the response I got for my first one, I would say that I accomplished my goal!

 

Thank you again. I really really appreciate your kind words :)

[Jeff M Stevens]

Spent my late 20's & most of my 30's in a relationship but I was a chaser before that.

Then I bought a project house & litterally was too busy to chase women & they wouldn't leave me alone.

 

Too bad I picked the wrong one.

So now i'm late 30's, divorced & learning to take my time. I'm also learning you have to take your time with quality women but you can keep yourself distracted with party girls at the same time as long as your not exclusive with the quality woman.

 

A lot of guys have gone though that, unfortunately. I'm sorry you did but it seems as if you learned from your divorce.

 

And I think there is NOTHING WRONG with your approach. As long as you aren't Bsing anyone about your intentions, and you don't seem like you are, then there is nothing wrong with playing the field until YOU are ready to be with the woman that really makes you happy.

 

Thanks for your response :)

[GorillaTheater]

At any rate, I am humbled and grateful for your response.

 

You seem okay, but you don't want to lay it on too thick.

 

I feel smothered.

[Jeff M Stevens]

Ok..I'll wait 5-9 days to give you another response after this one!

 

[GorillaTheater]

Ok..I'll wait 5-9 days to give you another response after this one!

 

 

I think we should just be friends.

 

Anyways, welcome. I look foward to your contributions, particularly to the extent they may be translated to married life.

[witabix]

Yes a little tongue in cheek.

 

I agree with the general stuff about not 'gushing' all over her.

 

Jeff, you see, Gorilla already friend zoned you. You broke your own rules man!!

 

And GT is usually a push over!

 

Check this thread out...http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t245859/ I'd like to hear your views!

[phineas]

A lot of guys have gone though that, unfortunately. I'm sorry you did but it seems as if you learned from your divorce.

 

And I think there is NOTHING WRONG with your approach. As long as you aren't Bsing anyone about your intentions, and you don't seem like you are, then there is nothing wrong with playing the field until YOU are ready to be with the woman that really makes you happy.

 

Thanks for your response :)

 

Basically, they approached me. It was on my terms. They wouldn't leave me alone because I wasn't asking them out on dates. Then once they found out I was interested in dateing them got "busy".

So since they are too busy for me I turn & walk away & then all of a sudden their calling me up to do something. then it's back to square one the next week.

 

It's all on their terms now.

Don't care for that. I prefered it when it was on my terms. (obviously)

So now i'm going let them be busy & when they notice i'm not chasing anymore & call me up to go out, i'm going to busy that day but offer an alternative day later on in the week or eve next week.

 

If they decline then i'll just keep on keeping on & let them contact me.

 

that sound about right?

[dispatch3d]

 

In fact, you should be evaluating her for a relationship. Is she worth it? Too many times a guy gets so into a woman physically that he forgets to check if she has integrity, a flexible personality, a giving spirit, a kind nature and is clinically sane (this is the only type of woman to have a long term relationship with).

 

To me clinically sane implies not insane. Obviously the wording is much better than if you had said "and she's not crazy or insane" which would definitely be offensive....

 

From what I read from your first paragraph, your advice is directed at guys only with a very small female audience (?) so you can use guy-terminology more, which definitely includes crazy/insane.

 

I have similar problems to the above poster. Indirect is fine and dandy and you can get them chasing. But if you all the sudden act to interested at one point of time then they know they have you, and the attraction is lost.

 

Would you say "nice guys" are typically a magnet for damaged goods? I have a friend whose an excellent player (natural if you're into pickup terms) who actually does completely the caring/loving thing early on. Not showering with compliments or anything typical "nice guy" behaviour will look like. An example is we were going to a movie and he bought me and my roommate a ticket despite the fact I met him ONCE. Mind you part of this is he trusts my roomate, but still I was impressed. He does similar thoughtful crap all the time.

[that girl]

You don't "pretend" to see someone else. You just don't talk about it. The assumption will be that you are seeing others as you don't talk about it. We also tell guys to see others as well. You never know which girl will be "the one" until you date several people. And don't tell me women don't do this too....because they do. It's natural and normal and doesn't make men "players" nor does it make women players. I say that with a caveat. If you're dating around to find the best relationship for you, that is what I'm talking about. As far as what "players" do, that is not something we talk about or promote.

 

I don't have a problem with people dating around, I have a problem with pretending you are dating around and following rules that are meant to misled someone. Actions designed to make a woman chase you are game playing.

 

But if you all the sudden act to interested at one point of time then they know they have you, and the attraction is lost.

Women do like men who are interested. Look at Sadand ConfusedWA for confirmation of this.

 

Basically, they approached me. It was on my terms. They wouldn't leave me alone because I wasn't asking them out on dates. Then once they found out I was interested in dateing them got "busy".

This is a sign that a woman is a drama queen. You are just playing into it. Sometimes you need to know when to fold.

 

A divorce rate that hasn't changed in over 40 years with women filing 2/3 of the time!

The divorce rate has actually fallen to the lowest rates in over 30 years http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18600304/

 

A lot of guys eat up this advice about not being too nice. I don't think it is because it gets to some deep seeded issue that women have, it is because it makes women the problem.

[TheBigQuestion]

I've read large volumes of male-oriented dating advice, everything from PUA to stuff like this. I've found that every "method" has some fatal flaw or another, but that a smart man can come up with a very useful synthesis from all that information.

 

Here is what I've come up with. Some of it resonates with what OP says, some of it does not.

 

1. When looking for dating advice, ask men who are in successful relationships/consistently get quality female attention. Women generally do not give good dating advice. It's like asking a fish how to catch fish.

 

2. In virtually every dating scenario, slow is better. Even if you become emotionally attached very early, it's better to not show this and become a smotherer. There is nothing more unattractive to a woman than desperation.

 

3. The 5 to 9 day no-contact rule generally only works on desperate women. I never understood how anyone who is a self-professed "game" guru can discuss this rule like it's a good thing. Guys who are in the game understand better than anyone else that attractive women (physically and mentally) generally have more dating options than attractive men, and thus have less incentive to wait over a week for a guy to contact her again. If I don't hear from a girl for 9 days after a date, I'd assume she's not interested. I agree that there SHOULD be a set interval of time during which one limits the amount of contact, regardless of how much you actually like the girl, but 5 to 9 days is far too long.

 

4. Women respond to men who openly express their interest far more than the Doc Love-ish method lets on. The idea is to not SMOTHER with compliments, to not SMOTHER with affection, etc. Women LOVE being told that they are gorgeous, etc, just NOT every 5 minutes.

 

5. Regardless of how much women protest whenever one brings this up, PUA methods and "game" do NOT work primarily on low-self esteem women. Women with very low self-esteem are usually too emotionally fragile to put up with any ball-busting, cocky-funny routines. Confident, comfortable women usually respond better to the push-pull of PUA and game.

 

6. Women who say that these materials only work for "getting laid" and aren't genuine relationship advice totally miss the point. Some guys can't even get their foot in the door; without some kind of male dating advice being available, a lot of men can't even get to the point where they can learn lessons about relationships.

 

7. "Be yourself" is the worst dating advice anyone can give if "yourself" is awkward (in an non-endearing way), smothering, impulsive, and physically sloppy. "Be your best self" is more like it. This entails learning a bit about dating and relationship dynamics, looking the best you can, dressing the best you can, separating your sense of self worth from whether or not women reject you, cultivate a diverse set of interests and hobbies, and so forth.

[TheBigQuestion]

Oh and another thing.

 

"The Art of Seduction" by Robert Greene is probably the best book I've ever read on the subject. It's fairly "evil" on the surface, but the most important lesson one can derive from it is that being in/falling in love is by definition a highly manipulative process, minus the intentionality that we usually associate when we typically use the term "manipulative." In other words, what we describe as "chemistry" in dating/relationships essentially arises from manipulative behaviors on both parties in the relationship, but unconsciously so.

[Mike B.]

I've read large volumes of male-oriented dating advice, everything from PUA to stuff like this. I've found that every "method" has some fatal flaw or another, but that a smart man can come up with a very useful synthesis from all that information.

 

Here is what I've come up with. Some of it resonates with what OP says, some of it does not.

 

1. When looking for dating advice, ask men who are in successful relationships/consistently get quality female attention. Women generally do not give good dating advice. It's like asking a fish how to catch fish.

 

2. In virtually every dating scenario, slow is better. Even if you become emotionally attached very early, it's better to not show this and become a smotherer. There is nothing more unattractive to a woman than desperation.

 

3. The 5 to 9 day no-contact rule generally only works on desperate women. I never understood how anyone who is a self-professed "game" guru can discuss this rule like it's a good thing. Guys who are in the game understand better than anyone else that attractive women (physically and mentally) generally have more dating options than attractive men, and thus have less incentive to wait over a week for a guy to contact her again. If I don't hear from a girl for 9 days after a date, I'd assume she's not interested. I agree that there SHOULD be a set interval of time during which one limits the amount of contact, regardless of how much you actually like the girl, but 5 to 9 days is far too long.

 

4. Women respond to men who openly express their interest far more than the Doc Love-ish method lets on. The idea is to not SMOTHER with compliments, to not SMOTHER with affection, etc. Women LOVE being told that they are gorgeous, etc, just NOT every 5 minutes.

 

5. Regardless of how much women protest whenever one brings this up, PUA methods and "game" do NOT work primarily on low-self esteem women. Women with very low self-esteem are usually too emotionally fragile to put up with any ball-busting, cocky-funny routines. Confident, comfortable women usually respond better to the push-pull of PUA and game.

 

6. Women who say that these materials only work for "getting laid" and aren't genuine relationship advice totally miss the point. Some guys can't even get their foot in the door; without some kind of male dating advice being available, a lot of men can't even get to the point where they can learn lessons about relationships.

 

7. "Be yourself" is the worst dating advice anyone can give if "yourself" is awkward (in an non-endearing way), smothering, impulsive, and physically sloppy. "Be your best self" is more like it. This entails learning a bit about dating and relationship dynamics, looking the best you can, dressing the best you can, separating your sense of self worth from whether or not women reject you, cultivate a diverse set of interests and hobbies, and so forth.

 

 

 

Essentially agree with every thing here except I have reservations about #7. Be yourself is the person to be because unless you are an oscar-worthy actor, you won't pull off being something that you are not. You will only come across as a wierdo or plain phoney.

 

Be yourself but improve yourself by being in control and ironing out rough areas. An awkward geek won't be looking like James Bond no matter how much of Doc Love, Doc Laid, Doc Kiss or Doc Marriage he reads. It's like telling a person who is just not atheletic that if he practice at basketball everyday and read books he can become an allstar basketball player one day. This is not true. He will only look foolish on the court trying to pretend to be a Kobe Bryant and not seeing Kobe type results after much practice will drive him crazy. What he needs to concentrate on is being the best damn waterboy out there with decent basketball fundamentals.

 

Sue me. I like basketball.

[Jeff M Stevens]

Gorilla: LOL!!! Thank you!

 

Witabix: LOL!!! As far as approaching women, it is hard in 2010 to meet total strangers, even if it is in malls, bookstores...etc.

 

The girls in nightclubs generally are hard to talk to because the music is so loud and you find a lot of people playing more games (both men and women).

 

I suggest internet dating or speed dating. The women in both of those environments are looking for a guy.

 

Volunteer work, wine tasting classes, cooking classes, seminars, dance classes, wedding receptions where you know either the bride or groom......all good places where you can get to know women in a non-threatening environment and you can get to know them over time or you know some of the same folks.

 

Of course, if you have the stones to do it, walking up to strangers in bookstores, grocery stores can work but its a tougher road.

 

We put sales into dating.

 

In other words, a salesman that is selling high end furnaces might look for "leads" in more affluent neighborhoods because he knows he has a better chance to sell.

 

For you, go for the places that are easier to "sell" yourself to potential "leads" and then when you've exhausted that, go for the harder areas. Every guy is different though....internet works for some, nightclubs work for others, some swear by dance classes.....etc.

 

A good place to go is MeetUp.com where people of similar interests gather in their respective towns.

 

Good luck....hope I helped

 

Phineas: It all depends on whether or not you want a relationship or not. If you're just dating around and are just looking for something to do and don't care about any of these girls then by all means, just take it or leave it. I don't suggest you use anyone but if you are going out and having fun and no one expects anything, then nothing wrong with it.

 

However, if you think you might want a relationship with someone then the in and out back and forth stuff is a deal breaker. We teach guys that in the first 2 months of dating there should be no obvious red flags. If she backs off or breaks dates and doesn't act interested in anyway and you know you're doing everything right, then you have a woman with low interest level. NEXT!

 

Meerkat: Thank you. I do want to keep it real though. I do hope I get people to check out my other materials and radio show as she says BUT I also want to provide good content here, without expecting anything in return. I appreciate that you can see that and I thank you.

 

Dispatch3d: I wouldn't say nice guys are a magnet for damaged goods unless they allow themselves to be. I'm all about treating women well as long as they have earned it. I say guys need to earn women's affection too.....its not a one sided street but I would say a lot of guys have the problem of giving too much, too soon, simply because the woman agrees to a date. You owe a woman respect (as long as she respects you back) and a fun time on a date. Anything beyond that needs to develop over time.

 

That Girl: I am going to stop responding to your posts in this thread...not because I'm being petulant and I do appreciate your taking the time to write, I really do...........but I think you and I have come to an impasse on this topic. You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you.

 

TheBigQuestion: I agree with you mainly but when you say a woman will forget you after 9 days and that 5-9 days is too long, I disagree. I want that interval because if she can forget me in around a week, how interested was she? I'm looking for the girl that is TRULY interested and women that forget you in such a short time frame are not interested. Also, I disagree that compliments work. Women love hearing they're gorgeous from the man they love. Not the random stranger that is dating them. And yes, you are strangers in the first few months of dating, even if you've known the girl from before (dating changes the game for people..even "friends" react differently).

 

Mike B: I disagree with this. Kobe was given a gift at birth to be 6'9" (or so) and move a half a step faster than other tall guys plus incredible hand-eye coordination. We teach guys how to modify their BEHAVIOR to have greater success than they are getting. I agree not every guy is going to be a super stud but every guy can improve his dating life to the point where he actually has a chance with the women that find him attractive.

[Mike B.]

 

Mike B: I disagree with this. Kobe was given a gift at birth to be 6'9" (or so) and move a half a step faster than other tall guys plus incredible hand-eye coordination. We teach guys how to modify their BEHAVIOR to have greater success than they are getting. I agree not every guy is going to be a super stud but every guy can improve his dating life to the point where he actually has a chance with the women that find him attractive.

 

How are you disagreeing with me when you basically reiterated what I just stated?

[Don Ho]

I wanted to make a couple of points in regard to what That Girl said.

 

Faking dating - If a woman does not tell me if she is dating other men, I find it more interesting than a woman that tells me she has three guys she's dating and that one is "the bomb" or that all three are duds. Mystery is intriguing to both parties. When you meet a woman and go out a few times, I don't think you're obligated to tell them or explain to them your "status" or if you're dating others. Interesting how your Mother (or others) probably told you to be "coy" with men, to hold back and play hard to get. Oh, but they weren't trying to tell you to be manipulative with men to get them more interested? Right.

Manipulation - People "manipulate" each other all the time ... if that's what you want to call it. Like it or not people always try to make their best impression and try to "persuade" people into their point of view or giving in to what they want. What about the wife that "barters" new blinds for sex with her husband? Certainly manipulative, but she gets what she wants and so does he. Is that bad?

 

Why do women spend so much time on makeup, hair, nails, clothes and so on? To manipulate men into how perceive them by improving their looks and putting forward their best "appearance" (which is actually fake because most women looking little like that in the morning without all that makeup). If you're truly against manipulation then next time you go out on the town with your GFs, I suggest you not wear any make up; because you would be manipulating people. So not telling a woman that you're dating other women is manipulative but getting done "to the nines" to go out is not? Interesting.

[Jeff M Stevens]

Mike B: I re-read what you wrote then read what I wrote and I have to say that, yeah, you're right! Sorry man!

 

Don Ho: I couldn't agree more. Bottom line? It is not manipulation to scheme for things that you want. It's human nature. People will use all the resources at their disposal to get the mate they want, the job they want, the car they want, etc. I don't say this out of a sense of being some cynical guy either. I just know that is the way it works in the real world. Doesn't make us bad humans...just makes us..............human.

[Don Ho]

I often make the comment on here that like it or not, love, dating and relationships are a game, it's just the way the dating/mating ritual works. Who ever said playing games or "manipulating" (if that's what you chose to term it) is bad? If a guy gets his dream girl (and vice versa) using strategies or methods and they are BOTH happy with the outcome, what is the difference and who was hurt? No one. Both have won. If you're just taking actions to play with someone or jerk them around, that's different.

 

i.e. if you're using "strategies", "manipulation" or "games", let's say, only to get someone into bed and then dump them or a woman uses her "charms" to get a guy to spend his money on them, then that is not what I condone and I'm sure that's not what you're saying either. I think what That Girl was objecting to was using tactics to use another person. I don't think that you and Doc promote guys using techniques to use women; you promote improving strategies and techniques to improve a guy's success with dating and hopefully landing the woman and relationship that he really wants.

[Jeff M Stevens]

Don, I could not have said it better myself.

 

Doc and I are all about hooking good men up with good women in long term relationships.

 

In fact, if you read an excerpt from my article, I clearly state that my methods are not to be used to hurt women:

Before we get into these, let me emphasize that women should be treated with respect, affection and romance over the long haul. This article is NOT a guide for you to learn how to be a jerk to women. However, many "nice guys" suffer from the "too happy to be there" attitude with women and they give up too much of themselves too soon.

 

Guys are taking women that otherwise would be interested in them and turning them off by being in their space too soon. They just don't give themselves a chance.

 

I am happy that you detected where I'm coming from. I like women and would NEVER suggest that a guy use tactics or games on them to hurt them in relationships or dating.

 

I simply want to help guys improve their chances with women that are interested in them so they both achieve a loving relationship that enhance each others lives over the long haul.

 

Thank you for your post

[EasyHeart]

Before we get into these, let me emphasize that women should be treated with respect, affection and romance over the long haul. This article is NOT a guide for you to learn how to be a jerk to women. However, many "nice guys" suffer from the "too happy to be there" attitude with women and they give up too much of themselves too soon.

 

Guys are taking women that otherwise would be interested in them and turning them off by being in their space too soon. They just don't give themselves a chance.

 

Exactly. I like this sort of advice because it's not about how to 'pick up chicks', but how to not screw up once we meet them. I don't know about other guys, but I've sure screwed up plenty of times!!!

 

I think there's a big difference between manipulating women/playing games and putting your best foot forward. Much of what you're saying is simply to play it cool so as not to scare off women who might otherwise like us. And of course the best thing we can aim for is to have enough confidence that we don't even have to play it cool -- we actually ARE cool!!!

[Jeff M Stevens]

EasyHeart, that was the perfect summary

[D-Jam]

I cosign on the part of making her "earn" your attention and admiration.

 

Doesn't mean you treat her badly, but you don't bend over back trying to please her before she even goes out with you.

 

I never prescribe to the "treat em like ****" philosophy, simply because I look at women who need that as women I would never be happy with. Even the playas and douchebags themselves have decided this woman is only good for a lay...what makes you think she's good to be your GF?

 

It is possible to be nice without being a needy doormat. One just needs to find the balance and gain the strength to walk away from the flakes you need to be played and toyed with in order to find attraction.

[flying]

I cosign on the part of making her "earn" your attention and admiration.

 

Doesn't mean you treat her badly, but you don't bend over back trying to please her before she even goes out with you.

 

I never prescribe to the "treat em like ****" philosophy, simply because I look at women who need that as women I would never be happy with. Even the playas and douchebags themselves have decided this woman is only good for a lay...what makes you think she's good to be your GF?

 

It is possible to be nice without being a needy doormat. One just needs to find the balance and gain the strength to walk away from the flakes you need to be played and toyed with in order to find attraction.

 

I know this isn't the intended audience, and I'm not saying this to create a stir. But to me, this is all common-sense stuff (well, with the exception of the 5-9 days thing) that women, too, should follow during dating. Lots of women are "nice girls" that get trampled on emotionally rather than standing up for themselves in relationships. I personally don't see any advice here that isn't actually gender-neutral. Amirite?

Edited September 21, 2010 by flying

[Jeff M Stevens]

D-Jam

Right on!

 

Flying

I agree it can be gender neutral. I write from a male perspective but there is no reason women can't employ this stuff too so they don't get walked on. As you might have noticed from my previous posts, I do write from a male perspective but I am definitely women friendly. I think that there are a lot of great girls out there (and great guys) that should be treated right!

[sanskrit]

No, the advice is wholly inapplicable to women, as women do not approach and are not expected to take all the risks in early dating as men are. Women sit back and evaluate men who ask them out, completely different dynamic than what men experience, completely different expectation level.