Jeff M Stevens Posted September 16, 2010 Posted September 16, 2010 I write dating women advice articles for guys and co-host a dating women radio show. I'm posting my articles on this site as food for thought. Guys and ladies, feel free to weigh in! I would love your feedback (good or bad) plus I think the discussions that come out of these articles will be interesting for all that read the thread (at least I hope they do) How To Stop Being The Nice Guy To Women I bet you are sick of getting rolled over while you see great women end up with what you consider to be "jerks." Am I right in assuming you want to know how to stop being the nice guy to women? On the dating women radio show I co-host, we have a couple strategies for you to end the "nice guy syndrome." Before we get into these, let me emphasize that women should be treated with respect, affection and romance over the long haul. This article is NOT a guide for you to learn how to be a jerk to women. However, many "nice guys" suffer from the "too happy to be there" attitude with women and they give up too much of themselves too soon. It is awesome to be "nice" to your girlfriend, fiance or wife (as long as she is being "nice" to you) but too many guys want to give a complete stranger respect, affection and romance. I am all about giving respect early on (as long as I get respect back) but she must earn the affection and romance part of the equation. Which brings me to my first strategy. ONE: She must earn your affection and romance So, you are attracted to her. Does that mean that you should fawn all over her with affection, compliments and gifts? How has that worked out for you? We teach guys on the radio show to be GENTLEMEN. You will hold the door for her, walk on the outside, open the car door, pull out her chair and treat her with respect (as long as she is respecting you back). You will not, however, tell her how beautiful she is 100 times, you will not give her a gift (candy, flowers and other presents are OUT for the first 10 dates), and you will not tell her how lucky you feel that she is out with you. Ever. Remember, she is a STRANGER (and yes, that includes a girl that has been your "friend" for awhile, because things change when you date). Just because you are into her physically, that does not mean you have to give up the farm to her. Let her earn your affection and romance. You must adopt the attitude that you have a lot to offer. I bet a lot of people are mystified that you do not have a significant other. They tell you all the time that you would be a great guy for any woman and that the women you are seeing must be "idiots." Is that true? I bet you have dated your share of idiots but as you look back at the man in the mirror, did he do too much, too soon, via gifts, compliments and attention before a woman really earned it? TWO: Slow and steady Dovetailing on strategy 1, slow and steady will allow you to make her earn you as a boyfriend. What do I mean by that? Specifically you are to employ mystery/challenge, let her think you are dating other women, and make her wonder about you when you are not there. Too many times the "nice guy" is perceived that way because he charges in, announces how beautiful she is, showers her with gifts and attention, and wants to hang out with her all the time. The woman has no doubt that you want her and you are ready to be her guy. Problem? They DO NOT respond well to this (as you well know). "Gee, I really thought this is what I wanted. I have never had a guy treat me this way before but (insert the guy she is dumping you for here) just makes me feel a certain way. I know I am crazy for letting you go. I guess I am crazy." Ever hear a variation of the quote above from a woman? You see, she responds a lot of the times to the "jerk" because he represents a challenge to her. The "jerk" is often a negative challenge in that he does not employ respect, affection or romance and does not last very well over the long term, but he beats your nice guy routine nonetheless. She does not want to know she has you by date 2. The key is to be a POSITIVE challenge to her. You will not give her too many compliments (you are allowed 2 per date. You can tell her she looks nice when you pick her up and then tell her you had a fun time when dropping her off). You will not give gifts. You will not tell her how happy you are to be there. The key is to make her laugh by keeping things light and funny and you will not reveal yourself or your feelings to her. In fact, you want her to do most of the talking. The sense that she should have at the end of a date is that she had a great time and laughed a lot but she does not know much about you. She also should have NO idea that you want her for a relationship. Yes, you will be a virtual mystery to her! In fact, you should be evaluating her for a relationship. Is she worth it? Too many times a guy gets so into a woman physically that he forgets to check if she has integrity, a flexible personality, a giving spirit, a kind nature and is clinically sane (this is the only type of woman to have a long term relationship with). As you evaluate HER long term potential, let her wonder about you. You will do that by calling her every 5-9 days per date with NO contact in between. You will end dates while they are still going great. In other words, if you are having a great time, and you are 3 hours in, then end it. Let her anticipate the next date. If you hang out too long with her in the early stages then she becomes to familiar with you. You have to let her get to know you SLOWLY. You will not go out with her on a Friday or a Saturday night until she asks to go out on those days. Basically, you want her to think you are seeing other women. If she is the long term type I described above, she will respond positively to competing for you. Listen, even the nicest girl in the world will EAT YOU ALIVE if she thinks she has you all figured out early on. As a POSITIVE CHALLENGE, you need to provide her with, well, a CHALLENGE. Yes, as she "earns" your affection and romance, you will be NICE to her but you will never be a pushover as you probably are now. If you want to know how to stop being the nice guy to women, then employ the 2 strategies above and you will be well on your way. Remember guys, she wants you to be nice to her only after she has earned it.
Don Ho Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 You must be Doc Love's kinder, gentler alter-ego! I'm with you. Now if most of us would not throw your good advice out the window when we meet a hot girl we "like" we'd do much better!
meerkat stew Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Jeff, please consider removing the double-space formatting and using a paragraph structure in future posts. The OP is hard to follow and I just had to quit reading it a short ways in.
Sabali Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 I personally think that if guys can just master rule #2 that will turn the tables for them significantly alone. If men just knew how to master slow and steady, they will eliminate a lot of their dating issues. But alas...asking most men to take it slow is like asking them to chop of their penises. So this rule is like telling everyone to stop shooting each other to bring about world peace. Like Don Ho alluded to, the hot women will make most men shoot!
skydiveaddict Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Jeff , I will refer you you to this thread
jenifer1972 Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 What I want to know, is why guys think this happens ONLY to THEM?? Same goes for being a nice GIRL...when I started applying your same overall principles to dating I finally got the respect I deserved. Prior to that, I was NICE and was treated BADLY. Actually goes for platonic relationships too. Never give strangers more trust, affection, or loyalty than they have proven they DESERVE. Most people get burned when they break this rule..
Cracker Jack Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Wow! I so need to follow this advice. I never even looked at it like that.
that girl Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 On the dating women radio show I co-host, we have a couple strategies for you to end the "nice guy syndrome." So you are here to pimp your radio show and perhaps a blog or system. You will not, however, tell her how beautiful she is 100 times, you will not give her a gift (candy, flowers and other presents are OUT for the first 10 dates), and you will not tell her how lucky you feel that she is out with you. Ever. Of course this would be a bad idea. This makes it seem like the guy might start stalking you if there is no second date. Let her earn your affection and romance. Earn? Why can't it just be two people getting to know each other? Whyt does it have to be 100 compliments in 20 minutes or none until she has earned it? And really it makes me think of this guy http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2010/09/16/1622848/wis-prosecutor-tried-to-keep-sexting.html who thought he was quite the prize. Specifically you are to employ mystery/challenge, let her think you are dating other women, and make her wonder about you when you are not there. This depends so much on the woman, but a good number of nice women will write off a man if he seems to be playing the field. I don't think there is anything wrong with dating around, but it isn't an effective strategy if you aren't a date around kind of guy because it will cut off the women you would be most compatiable with. And it is manipulative. Too many times the "nice guy" is perceived that way because he charges in, announces how beautiful she is, showers her with gifts and attention, and wants to hang out with her all the time. Problem? They DO NOT respond well to this (as you well know). No you seem crazy, desperate and like you have no interest in getting to know them as a person. It has nothing to do with being too nice. And in reality a lot of solid relationships begin with people immediately spending a lot of time together because they mutually want to. The issue isn't seeing someone too much so much as it is shoving yourself on them. The sense that she should have at the end of a date is that she had a great time and laughed a lot but she does not know much about you. Yes, it is bad when a guy spends the entire evening lecturing his date. But it is also a turn off when a guy more or less refuses to talk about himself by always ping ponging things back to her. As you evaluate HER long term potential, let her wonder about you. Except she is already wondering about you. Two of the things she is wonder are "Is he married?" and "Is he a player?" You will do that by calling her every 5-9 days per date with NO contact in between. Nine days? That screams "I was just going through my rolodex of women." Lots of women will not call you back after 9 days. If she is the long term type I described above, she will respond positively to competing for you. A shy girl will not compete for you. A traditional girl will not compete for you. A woman with self-esteem will not compete for you. Remember guys, she wants you to be nice to her only after she has earned it. Only women with daddy issues want to earn a guy being nice.
TheBigQuestion Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 The 5 to 9 day rule is absolute crap. You can employ every other principle you stated and come into contact with her every 2 to 3 days and still be fine. Women nowadays are smart enough to know when they're being "gamed," and if you're waiting an entire week before contacting her again after an "awesome date," she will likely start eyeing up other guys. Women (especially beautiful ones) generally have lots of options and, regardless of how awesome your date was with her, WILL NOT take kindly to being ignored for that long and will likely move on with her life. Ladies, I'm sure most of you can back me up on this one, since any time this stupid rule gets propagated, you tend to talk about how its really just a turn-off.
meerkat stew Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 The 5 to 9 day rule is absolute crap. Consider the target audience for such advice. The types of guys who need to hear this advice are the types that are calling and texting constantly before they even meet, the types who are asking women out for the next date while on one, the types that start blowing up her phone the morning after the first date, sending flowers, doing every silly thing their mother, aunt and sisters told them to do to "win" the girl. Tell these types to wait three days and they are still blowing up the phone the next day. Tell them to wait a week, and they may wait a healthy two-three days. Men are generally too anxious to rush in and pursue, making all kinds of mistakes in the process, when what they should be doing is slowing down and -thinking- if the girl in question is truly a good option, rather than just pouring it on merely because she said yes to a single date. If people would not take the advice so literally, and consider the audience to which it is addressed, guys with awful dating/relationship habits who need some truly remedial help, it starts to make a whole lot more sense.
that girl Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Tell these types to wait three days and they are still blowing up the phone the next day. Tell them to wait a week, and they may wait a healthy two-three days. So basically you are saying guys are too dumb to follow advice? Low opinion of men you have there. I agree the full on "I love you, here are flowers and names for our future children" is bad, but calling the next day is not the kiss of death. So many guys love Swingers, but they always seem to miss the part where he calls Heather Graham the night he meets her. A girl who is interested isn't that easy to scare off.
Author Jeff M Stevens Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 (edited) Don Ho LOL on the kinder, gentler, alter ego....and you're right...guys do have trouble controlling themselves when they're really attracted to a lady Meerkat I agree with you. I'll endeavor to clean up posts before I put them out there Sabali Thanks for posting. You're so right that men need to learn SELF-CONTROL. SkyDiveAddict In reading that thread, I don't think there is a either be a jerk or have no women, period. I believe there are a LOT of good women out there that really do want gentlemen. Notice I said "gentlemen." They don't want a wimp or a macho boy. They want a guy that is strong enough to say no and not be all over them just because he's attracted to him but sensitive enough to display affection and romance once they've ESTABLISHED a relationship. Jennifer1972 I agree with you that its not just for guys. I write my articles from a man's perspective because there is not a lot of help for guys out there but you are right. A man needs to earn a woman's affection and romance just as she must earn his. You are 100% on target with what you say Cracker Jack Thanks for the input...its definitely a mindset change That Girl The article I posted was in its original form. I will from now on remove the references to the dating show in the body of the post. I appreciate your input. Now to your specifics.... COMPLIMENTS: They just don't work so its pointless. Women, especially attractive ones have heard compliments since they were 11. It's meaningless, ESPECIALLY from a stranger, which a guy that is initially dating her, is. I'm all about compliments once the woman is gone on me because then it MEANS something to her. Until I've established a relationship with her then I'm just trying "kiss up" to her when I compliment too much (that's how she perceives it anyway) EARNING AFFECTION: Too many "nice" guys want to give up the farm because they are attracted to her. They never think that while they're trying to win her love, she should also want to win theirs. Women get bored very easily when a guy just gives too much, too soon, just because he's attracted to her. And yes, you do have to earn people's affection, just as you have to earn people's respect. Dating is no different than real life in that respect. ON PLAYING THE FIELD: "Nice" women will write guys off because they're playing the field? Really? Either they're uptight or not interested. Either one is not a good long term candidate so I'm always happy when a woman drops me because she thinks I'm seeing others. And how is it manipulative? Clinically sane women that have a flexible personality and HIGH interest level in a guy DO respond positively to a guy that they have to chase. They like to know that they had to knock other women out of the box to win a guy. Guys need to learn to hold their cards close to the vest so that the woman comes to them. #1, its a woman's idea anyway as to how the relationship will progress (IE, it all starts with HER interest level in the guy) and #2, giving too much of yourself, too soon, to her, is a very bad strategy because she hasn't earned anything. I'm simply telling guys to pull back initially so that the woman WONDERS about them instead of thinking "well, I got another one" ON IMMEDIATELY SPENDING A LOT OF TIME TOGETHER Really? Is there one hard and fast rule that says that people have to immediately be joined at the hip? We teach guys that you might be with a woman 40-60 years so you don't have to see her 15 times in the first month you're together (or something like that...I know you didn't give a specific amount of time that they had to be together but you did say that they should spend a lot of time together). ON A GUY TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF We do want a woman to get to know us....SLOWLY. Women like to peel the layers back a little at a time. I don't know why that is, but it is. I don't suggest a guy "ping pong" things back but I do suggest that he focuses on what she is interested in and keep the conversation off himself as much as possible so that she does wonder about him as time goes on. ON WONDER Again, if a woman is a clinically sane flexible giver and she has high interest level in a guy, she will play through all the "married or player" stuff. All she knows is she likes the guy and wants to be with him. We teach guys to go after women that have high interest level in them, are clinically sane and have a giving and flexible personality. Any other type of woman and you will not have long term potential. By the way, I'm optimistic about women. I think there are a lot of GREAT women out there ON 5-9 DAYS Really? She won't call me back after 9 days? What if I was Brad Pitt that was on a movie set? Would she call Brad Pitt back (or whatever "A-list" guy she likes). My point is, if a woman forgets about me after a little over a week then she is either uptight or not interested. Good. Glad to find out now. Next. Again, there are a lot of great women out there so I can't afford to get bogged down with women that are either uptight or not truly interested. ON COMPETING I hate to sound like a parrot but again, clinically sane women that have flexible and giving personalities and HIGH interest level in a guy, will compete. The uptight ones or the non interested ones will blow him off summarily. That's all right. Better to find out now. TheBigQuestion I don't think 5-9 days is crap. I want to see if she'll blow me off after waiting a week. If she does, she's either uptight or not that interested so that helps me weed those types out. meerkatstew You do make very good points. There are a ton of guys out there that have been brainwashed into thinking that they need to pursue, pursue, pursue and pursue some more. I do think that 2-3 days is too soon. 5-9 days allows you to gauge whether or not she is uptight or not interested which are 2 very important things you need to find out before committing to her long term. Too many guys that call our show have ended up in divorce court and in a MESS only because they refused to truly evaluate what kind of woman they had while they were dating. They thought they'd just fix whatever problems after they got married and things only get worse after marriage. By taking your time and really understanding what kind of woman you have, you allow yourself the best chance for long term success. Dating is not just about getting the next date. If you're looking for a relationship, its all about, "Gee, can I really spend the next 40-60 years with this person and have my life completely intertwined with her?" You need time in the dating process to truly evaluate someone (as they're evaluating you) Again, and I'll repeat this over and over again. There are a lot of GREAT girls out there but there are some not so great girls (just as there are great guys and not so great guys). I think guys need to SLOW DOWN and take their time to make sure that the girl they end up with is both a great girl and interested in THEM. Anything else, and you're heading for major problems. I've seen it too many times. Edited September 17, 2010 by Jeff M Stevens Cleaned up some thoughts...fixed some grammar errors
that girl Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 "Nice" women will write guys off because they're playing the field? Really? Either they're uptight or not interested. Sure they might be uptight or they might just be worried about players. And how is it manipulative? Trying to make someone think that you are seeing other people to raise their interest is manipulative. They never think that while they're trying to win her love, she should also want to win theirs. Yes, both people should be trying to see if this is a good fit. The problem is you make it all about the guy. Clinically sane women that have a flexible personality and HIGH interest level in a guy DO respond positively to a guy that they have to chase. They like to know that they had to knock other women out of the box to win a guy. If this were true, women would ask out men more regularly than they do. Chase also equals drama. Not everyone wants drama. Is there one hard and fast rule that says that people have to immediately be joined at the hip? I didn't say anyone had to be joined at the hip. There is a middle ground between 15 dates in a month and waiting 9 days between phone calls. She won't call me back after 9 days? Frequently she won't. What if I was Brad Pitt that was on a movie set? Would she call Brad Pitt back (or whatever "A-list" guy she likes). Are you Brad Pitt on a movie set? If so, shouldn't you be with Angie and the kids? A woman who would be desperate to get with Brad is a famewhore or someone looking for a story. Is that really what you want? Again, if a woman is a clinically sane flexible giver and she has high interest level in a guy, she will play through all the "married or player" stuff. If he is giving off signs that he is married or a player, a sane woman would not stick around. You're advising men to take time and let attachment grow, yet you somehow think a woman should be obsessed with a guy because he doesn't compliment her or talk about himself. Good luck with that, drama queens will probably go for it.
that girl Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 You must be Doc Love's kinder, gentler alter-ego! I'm with you. Now if most of us would not throw your good advice out the window when we meet a hot girl we "like" we'd do much better! I googled him, he is Doc Love's side kick. Literally. And he is here shilling.
Author Jeff M Stevens Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "shilling" THAT GIRL? Am I not not allowed to post my perspective on the forums? I did want to post my dating articles to get people talking about them (both good and bad). I believe that Doc and I have a unique perspective on dating and relationships from a man's perspective and wanted to expose this forum to it. I believed that my articles were the best way to illustrate where were coming from. I do agree that I should not mention the show in the body of the article (if you read my post to you above). I made a mistake in that I re-posted the article in its original form. You won't see that again. By the way, you didn't need to "google" me because on my signature, I clearly state that I am the co-host of the Doc Love Show, but I guess if you like to google, that's cool
Author Jeff M Stevens Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 Sure they might be uptight or they might just be worried about players. We teach guys to be gentlemen that display respect, affection and romance. "Players" are found out after awhile. Gentlemen wear well over the long haul. A good woman will be able to tell the difference. Trying to make someone think that you are seeing other people to raise their interest is manipulative. And when you go to buy a car, do you tell the dealer you'll pay any price for the car or do you negotiate? In life, you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve. Having a woman think you're seeing others raises your "value" in her eyes. At least the good, flexible ones. Yes, both people should be trying to see if this is a good fit. The problem is you make it all about the guy. Agreed. But I write from a guy's perspective because #1, I'm a guy and #2, there is not a lot of help for men out there. If this were true, women would ask out men more regularly than they do. It's not a woman's job to ask out a guy. Many women won't do this. Chase also equals drama. Not everyone wants drama. Why is it drama if you're having a fun time with a guy but only see him once a week? I didn't say anyone had to be joined at the hip. There is a middle ground between 15 dates in a month and waiting 9 days between phone calls. Yes, and its about 1 date every week to week and a half until a relationship is established. I'm all about going slow and really getting to know someone. You can't get to know someone when you give too much too soon because they get sick of you. Frequently she won't. Good..she was uptight or not interested. Are you Brad Pitt on a movie set? If so, shouldn't you be with Angie and the kids? A woman who would be desperate to get with Brad is a famewhore or someone looking for a story. Is that really what you want? You missed my point entirely. I want a woman to perceive me as her #1 guy that she really wants to be with. The Brad Pitt example was only to illustrate that women will wait for guys they are interested in (within a reasonable timeframe and a little over a week is REASONABLE) If he is giving off signs that he is married or a player, a sane woman would not stick around. You're advising men to take time and let attachment grow, yet you somehow think a woman should be obsessed with a guy because he doesn't compliment her or talk about himself. Good luck with that, drama queens will probably go for it. I'm simply saying that guys need to learn to slow their roll and really get to know someone before committing too much of themselves. I think you and I will agree to disagree which is what these forums are all about
that girl Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "shilling" THAT GIRL? Am I not not allowed to post my perspective on the forums? You're not here to offer your perspective, you are here to try to get page views and radio listeners. Why is it drama if you're having a fun time with a guy but only see him once a week? It isn't drama to see someone once a week, it is creating drama to pretend you are seeing other people in hopes of raising a woman's "interest level". Besides, if you are waiting 5-9 days to call someone, it is very unlikely you are seeing them once a week. I want a woman to perceive me as her #1 guy that she really wants to be with. Why would she consider you her #1 guy when you pretend you are dating around, wait a week to call her, avoid complimenting her, avoid discussing yourself or any serious topics? Only a drama queen or a desperate woman would want this. I'm simply saying that guys need to learn to slow their roll and really get to know someone before committing too much of themselves. I agree with this but you can do it with out all this game playing. The begining stages of a relationship should be about two people determining whether or not they have the sexual attraction, shared interests and compatable personalities needs to form a relationship. The mistake guys make is overwhelming over a woman they don't even know. What you suggest is about pretending you are busy and disinterested. Stable, healthy women want someone who is interested, just not obsessed.
Author Jeff M Stevens Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 You're not here to offer your perspective, you are here to try to get page views and radio listeners. Why can't it be both? I am not going to lie. I want as many people as possible to see and hear our message but that doesn't mean that I don't want to help people at the same time It isn't drama to see someone once a week, it is creating drama to pretend you are seeing other people in hopes of raising a woman's "interest level". Besides, if you are waiting 5-9 days to call someone, it is very unlikely you are seeing them once a week. You don't "pretend" to see someone else. You just don't talk about it. The assumption will be that you are seeing others as you don't talk about it. We also tell guys to see others as well. You never know which girl will be "the one" until you date several people. And don't tell me women don't do this too....because they do. It's natural and normal and doesn't make men "players" nor does it make women players. I say that with a caveat. If you're dating around to find the best relationship for you, that is what I'm talking about. As far as what "players" do, that is not something we talk about or promote. Why would she consider you her #1 guy when you pretend you are dating around, wait a week to call her, avoid complimenting her, avoid discussing yourself or any serious topics? Only a drama queen or a desperate woman would want this. First of all, you are not "pretending" as I stated above. #2, why can't she call you if she's that interested. #3, serious topics play to the head and not the heart. It's ok to talk about serious topics at SOME point once the relationship is established but not early on---its all about fun early on. #4, Guys talk about themselves and reveal WAY too much and hurt their cause early on. And why would she want you even if you aren't complimenting her? Because you'll be making her laugh, you'll be showing her a good time, you'll be looking in her eyes and not at the waitress, you'll be pulling her chair out and opening her door, you'll not try to make her mama or your psychiatrist as many guys do. I think there are many women besides drama queens or desperate women that would want this. I agree with this but you can do it with out all this game playing. The begining stages of a relationship should be about two people determining whether or not they have the sexual attraction, shared interests and compatable personalities needs to form a relationship. The mistake guys make is overwhelming over a woman they don't even know. What you suggest is about pretending you are busy and disinterested. Stable, healthy women want someone who is interested, just not obsessed. A lot of times what we teach is viewed as game playing. It is not. We teach guys to keep it light, keep it funny, no heavy subjects, no pressure, do not be in a woman's face, act like a gentleman, do not talk sex, and go SLOW in all aspects. It's the reality factor. All of the major media and "professionals" tell guys to just be themselves, don't play games, tell her how much you like her, be nice and sensitive and what do we have? A divorce rate that hasn't changed in over 40 years with women filing 2/3 of the time! Men are making basic mistakes in the initial phases of dating and ultimately getting into relationships with either the wrong woman or often they treat the right woman, wrong.
witabix Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 You don't "pretend" to see someone else. You just don't talk about it. The assumption will be that you are seeing others as you don't talk about it. We also tell guys to see others as well. You never know which girl will be "the one" until you date several people. And don't tell me women don't do this too....because they do. It's natural and normal and doesn't make men "players" nor does it make women players. I say that with a caveat. If you're dating around to find the best relationship for you, that is what I'm talking about. As far as what "players" do, that is not something we talk about or promote. Good. A lot of times what we teach is viewed as game playing. It is not. We teach guys to keep it light, keep it funny, no heavy subjects, no pressure, do not be in a woman's face, act like a gentleman, do not talk sex, and go SLOW in all aspects. It's the reality factor. All of the major media and "professionals" tell guys to just be themselves, don't play games, tell her how much you like her, be nice and sensitive and what do we have? A divorce rate that hasn't changed in over 40 years with women filing 2/3 of the time! Men are making basic mistakes in the initial phases of dating and ultimately getting into relationships with either the wrong woman or often they treat the right woman, wrong. but....what we teach ? Do you honestly believe so many men are behaving like blathering idiots that they are the sole cause of a 40%+ divorce rate? Really? If they are what can you teach such driveling idiots? From what I can discern from your post. Don't call too often. 5-9 day gap? Come on they are game rules if I ever saw them. I think it should be 114-140 hours after you have arrived home from each date. If you go to bed straight away, add 0.45 hour for each coffee you drink....etc etc. Be mysterious....oh right. Women in the forties tried that, smoking eyes and enigmatic smiles. I think you can come across quite easily as a right doofus doing this. Make her think you may be dating other women but don't pretend you are. Ok, go out on the date dressed as a United States Marine 'Death Eagle' Colonel, but don't pretend you are one. Keep the convo light, a lot of women do not want a light convo, they want to talk about politics, science and chess opening transpositions....well ok maybe not so much. But just chit-chatting about 'stuff', I don't like to date women who do that, I get bored, and I think I would bore a smart woman with that 'tactic'. Be a gentleman, couldn't agree more. No sex talk, tacky on a date unless all you want is a shagadelic time (and nothing wrong with that), women do it too. My advice is just be yourself, and try to be gentlemanly. Well thats all from me and my meanderings, its back to the studio for an update on the 'Monkey in a Bottle' story from Minnesota, Jeff..........
Sphere Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 I played by these rules for a while, but then realized that they become as predictable as being nice. You need to show a woman, you're a good man with self respect, and whom has lots to offer and you can show a woman that by not being a nice guy or a jerk, or both, but by being a great catch. A great catch who is someone who isn't nice or a jerk, he's great. He stands heads and shoulders above the rest. Have you ever seen the most average looking guy, think Evan from Superbad with a gorgeous woman and ever thought "hey, how the hell did he get with her?", well he got with her because he isn't nice or a jerk, he's great, he's better than you are. A great catch is someone who treats a woman as a human being, but isn't afraid to lead where and when required, who stands up for himself and when needs be and who is there through and thick and thin. A nice guy is too weak and a jerk is too weak, a great catch is strong, that's the difference.
dispatch3d Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Jeff M, I completely agree with the post. Actually I have many examples where I show too much interest too soon/unjustly and get treated like **** later on because I "****ed up" early on. As in they (doesn't even really matter guy or girl) figure they can get away with MURDER cause you are going to like them regardless.... afterall you liked them for no reason earlier... I had a girl lately tell me (after I said hey great to see you) "Uhhh can I come back and talk to you in just a minute. Is that cool?" uhhh **** no it's not cool. Of course I said "yeah cool" like a tool and now I'm not sure where to go with it... Probably just being a girl about things... As far as the "that girl" response as well as a lot of other hate you're going to get from female posters. I think one thing that's important to realize is that in general female's do give very very poor dating advice to males. This may be a result of them not having to work for anything they get/not usually having to work for anything. I also think more insecure girls aren't going to like your ideas. They kind of like the guy blowing up their phone the next day - sure they aren't going to **** the guy or anything, lets not get hasty - but they do like the feeling of being wanted. Women don't like being referred to as "crazy" or "insane". You should qualify more what you mean by that.
Author Jeff M Stevens Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 Let me first say that I appreciate ANY responses. No one, including "That Girl" has attacked me personally. I have gotten disagreement but what Doc and I have is not something you hear from other "love gurus" or the major media so I expect people to disagree with me. I will put what we teach up against ANYTHING and have no problem expressing my point of view. As long as folks keep to the arguments and don't get into mudslinging, I have no problem with the debate. So far, its been exactly that. A spirited, but respectful exchange of ideas. Thanks to all who have responded to me. I really really appreciate it!!! To the specifics... Witabix I could tell your tongue was firmly in your cheek. You actually made me laugh. Let me just say that some guys DO make a lot of errors. Doc says on the show all the time that today's male can get a woman to fall in love but they cannot keep her in love. Also, there are a ton of macho boys who view women as objects or wimps that view women way up on a pedestal. Neither one is the right approach. We teach guys to go slow and evaluate the PERSON. Also, I'm not saying to just talk about "stuff"----you can certainly talk about intelligent things...just no negatives or heavy subjects. Dating in the early stages should be FUN and LIGHT. What's wrong with a bunch of laughter and fun as you get to know someone? Women love a guy that makes them laugh. Sphere You really hit the nail on your head with your post. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. I don't know how to be more clear but what we teach is not a set of rules. We teach guys that they need to lay back and be the type of guy you describe. Unfortunately a lot of guys need to understand that giving excessive gifts or compliments, calling all the time, making themselves too available and giving the woman the idea that all she has to do is snap their fingers to get them to come running is hurting their cause. Some guys do need some guideposts.....as some of them are not as enlightened as you are, unfortunately Dispatch3d Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it. And you hit the nail on the head. The types of women that hate what I'm saying are the types we teach guys to avoid. A self-reliant woman that is flexible, giving and has HIGH interest level in a guy will respond positively to what I'm saying. The other types will not and that's ok because we want to find out early. Also..did I miss something? I don't think I said crazy or insane, did I? I think I referred to low interest level or uptight. If I did refer to women as crazy or insane, I guess there are some of those out there, but there are men like that as well. It is NEVER my intent to bash women. You will hear me say this over and over again......There are a lot of great girls out there. There are some bad ones too but the same can be said for men as well. I am very optimistic about women and I like and respect women as a general rule (as long as they like and respect me back!). Our point of view has always been, and always will be that there are good men out there and sometimes they need help in evaluating whether or not they have a interested good woman on their hands and how to treat that good woman so she wants to stay in love.
Sphere Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Jeff, I have tried educating a few males on this and they take no heed of my advice and end up name calling, bear in mind these men are in their late twenties and late thirties. Your words will fall on deaf ears and you'll be called a woman hating Sosuave member by some of the women here, but welcome aboard.
Author Jeff M Stevens Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 Well, we will keep on fighting the good fight but let me say 2 things 1. I like women (as I said above) as long as they like me back (sounds like some of them will not like me very well...LOL) 2. I view all of this with a sense of humor. I really do want to help the guys that want to be helped. The ones that don't want to be helped.....hey.....can't reach them all. I will have fun no matter what I say give me love, give me hate but don't give me indifference. I REALLY appreciate your time :)
phineas Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Jeff, I have tried educating a few males on this and they take no heed of my advice and end up name calling, bear in mind these men are in their late twenties and late thirties. Your words will fall on deaf ears and you'll be called a woman hating Sosuave member by some of the women here, but welcome aboard. Spent my late 20's & most of my 30's in a relationship but I was a chaser before that. Then I bought a project house & litterally was too busy to chase women & they wouldn't leave me alone. Too bad I picked the wrong one. So now i'm late 30's, divorced & learning to take my time. I'm also learning you have to take your time with quality women but you can keep yourself distracted with party girls at the same time as long as your not exclusive with the quality woman.
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