no sex before marriage issue

[Floridaman]

Well, it's my good friend who is having the issue with the bible thumping boyfriend. My boyfriend and i have had sex twice, but stopped. However, he does not act like my friend's boyfriend does.

I've read the discussion about that case on this thread.

I was more interested in your thoughts, as you stated you're a new Christian.

This is an anonymous board so no need to worry.

 

My thoughts were in line with this thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t74393/

 

I guess my question is more than if having sex with random person is wrong (because according to the Bible it is), but at what part in your relationship do you believe you are committed to the point where sleeping together is ok, and do you believe a legal or religious paper makes it a marriage in the eyes of God, or is that between the two people in love and the rest is purely optional...

[Truthseeker-John]

The word 'marry' means to be joined and with a positive relationship (sexual or otherwise), we are joined (married) to them, at least to an extent. If we are in a loving relationship with someone we are in fact married to them. We do not need a church or the State's permission to be married - to be joined.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Truthseeker-John

[creighton0123]

You should be prepared if you want to get involved in western religion, particularly Judaism/Islam/Christianity.

 

The basis of these religions at a sexual level is pretty anti-sex.

 

I'm not saying the anti-sex basis is a bad thing. It is what it is. I don't understand it completely, as sex in and of itself is neither moral or immoral.

 

As for physical attractiveness, you'll find that the more spiritual a person is (despite whatever religion they follow), the more likely they are to gain sexual gratification by giving pleasure rather than receiving pleasure.

 

I count myself a Buddhist. I am a gay man. I am in a monogamous relationship with a man I love, but know that when we are rocking each other's world, I can't finish unless he does.

 

I've talked to many people, gay and straight, who feel the same way and the only thing they share in common is that they are spiritual.

 

So... to your original question. If this girl were "sexier, hotter, model-like" would her man be unable to resist jumping her bones? Perhaps, but it is unlikely since religion conditions men and women to look above and beyond particularly minute physical characteristics and seek gratification in giving.

[Truthseeker-John]

^^^

Wow!

[Floridaman]

The basis of these religions at a sexual level is pretty anti-sex.

 

I'm not saying the anti-sex basis is a bad thing. It is what it is. I don't understand it completely, as sex in and of itself is neither moral or immoral.

I don't know if this is entirely accurate. I know many who espouse said religions can be anti-sex and tell women that "sex is only a thing a woman must do to please her husband..." and is "for procreation only..."

This backwards-thinking and claiming lovemaking isn't for personal pleasure has harmed many relationships.

 

The founding documents of Christianity and Judaism actually liberate people from such repressive views.

 

Read the erotic Old Testament book, the Song of Solomon says "let you enjoy the breasts of the wife of your youth" or something and the Apostle Paul's advice to couples "Let the marriage bed be undefiled," "the wife's body belongs to the man, and the man's body belongs to the wife..." and the "two should not abstain unless by mutual consent..."

 

In the Song of Solomon, Solomon's lover tells how she enjoys "the fruit or garden of her beloved..." and in v. 2:6 and 8:3 describes a marital sex position!

 

"Let his left hand be under my head and his right hand embrace me.."

 

In a book I'm reading, it says the word "embrace" can be translated as "fondle" or "stimulate."

 

"Here in the Bible, in a book dealing with pure married love, a married woman expresses herself with longing that her husband put his left arm under her head and that he use his right hand to stimulate her clitoris," according to that book.

 

That sounds fairly radical for that day and age and even today, and sadly, isn't teached much in churches.

 

This isn't a debate on religion- not saying one belief is superior to another. Just showing some things that aren't often espoused by a major religion in the U.S.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Floridaman

[Truthseeker-John]

Yes the Song of Solomon is erotic and sexual desires and actions are good, unless they are hurting another person.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Truthseeker-John

[Floridaman]

I'm trying to get my wife out of her hangups.

This may be a little hard as we're physically in an LDR (posted that in another thread) and living apart for financial reasons.

 

I told her about those passages from Song of Solomon from what I read in that Christian marital sex book.

 

She has never O'd with me or her only other partner she was engaged to 10 years before meeting me.

 

I didn't know anything about female O's until this week when I read it isn't like a male O, but something that rocks a woman from head to toe... I read that to her... I am hoping I can help her achieve one.... but I'm kinda naive about some things in her "garden" (as Song puts it) and really don't know that area of her as our LM is pretty vanilla...

 

As I posted elsewhere, I was only interested in getting that area "ready" for me... and not her satisfaction, first, unfortunately.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Floridaman

[Truthseeker-John]

I'm trying to get my wife out of her hangups.

This may be a little hard as we're physically in an LDR (posted that in another thread) and living apart for financial reasons.

I'm not a 'sexpert' but I suspect that the above might be part of the problem. Edited December 14, 2010 by Truthseeker-John

[Floridaman]

FROM ME...I'm trying to get my wife out of her hangups.

This may be a little hard as we're physically in an LDR (posted that in another thread) and living apart for financial reasons.

I'm not a 'sexpert' but I suspect that the above might be part of the problem.

John, that is perceptive of you.

 

The distance hasn't helped and has intensified the problems that go back for years.

 

During a weekend where I was very lonely and scared this fall, this lack of sexual acceptance from my wife prompted a crisis where I feared our marriage was ending.

I detailed this in this other (long) post:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3143637

Sorry for the length of that post, which I'm treating like a blog. I'm very expressive. Hope it's not too graphic.

 

We haven't ML probably more than once or twice a year for the past 4-5 years. I think a lot of it was due to her not being satisfied and me not lasting long.

 

Aside from 3-4 years ago when I perceived things were improving when she got a little amorous and allowed me to enter her - only an isolated weekend here and there - the frequency has never returned.

I'm nowhere near leaving as I originally considered, as I'm a guy that doesn't believe in divorce.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Floridaman

[Truthseeker-John]

John, that is perceptive of you.

 

The distance hasn't helped and has intensified the problems that go back for years.

 

Hi Floridaman, as we get older our libido tends to go down somewhat (I know this is true for men at least) but we can still love someone without orgasm anyway. However, this is my honest opinion: she feels insecure about the relationship (and from what I gather from your posts, so do you) and marriage is when people are together.

 

In regard to financial reasons, when people live together they can save on travel, heating and other expenses. Think about it. If you really love each other, get together - it might work out and I hope that it does.

 

Talk with her about it.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Truthseeker-John

[Floridaman]

Hi Floridaman, as we get older our libido tends to go down somewhat (I know this is true for men at least) but we can still love someone without orgasm anyway. However, this is my honest opinion: she feels insecure about the relationship (and from what I gather from your posts, so do you) and marriage is when people are together.

 

In regard to financial reasons, when people live together they can save on travel, heating and other expenses. Think about it. If you really love each other, get together - it might work out and I hope that it does.

 

Talk with her about it.

Good advice, John.

We are only apart bec. of a change in her working circumstances and she wanting to live close to her ailing parents. Her out of state job isn't working out well and she's frustrated with her parents' situation so much she's looking for jobs back here.

The plan is for her to return.

 

I can't be more delighted she's coming back as I've done nothing but miss her and feel so lost without her. I do want to live with her again.

 

I experienced a crisis on a lonely weekend a couple of months ago, and bec. of the refusal, felt our marriage was at an end and remembered all the wrong things I've done with her. I also recalled all the other past romantic failures with other women and wondered why I couldn't have married one of them.

 

My libido hasn't declined much at all. I have beem MB'ing like crazy these last couple of years. I've kicked porn thanks to some prayer and help from some other posters on this board like dreamingoftigers and YouGoGirl, I've been off it for months.

Maybe I've been pent-up with sexual tension at all that I've been missing. My wife's obv. has declined. Maybe menopausal. She's 52. I'm 48.

 

Our relationship is otherwise fine for a couple, though we have our challenges.

 

What do you mean about her feeling "insecure"?

 

You do provide some good advice and I really appreciate it

[Truthseeker-John]

Floridaman, to be married means to be joined and a marriage is not a real marriage while apart - and that's why I suggest that (if you really love each other) you live together.

 

I gather that she is at her parents home but if she comes to live with you, she might feel guilty about neglecting her parents - so can't you move in to be with her, or at least be closer to her?

Edited December 16, 2010 by Truthseeker-John

[dreamingoftigers]

Good advice, John.

We are only apart bec. of a change in her working circumstances and she wanting to live close to her ailing parents. Her out of state job isn't working out well and she's frustrated with her parents' situation so much she's looking for jobs back here.

The plan is for her to return.

 

I can't be more delighted she's coming back as I've done nothing but miss her and feel so lost without her. I do want to live with her again.

 

I experienced a crisis on a lonely weekend a couple of months ago, and bec. of the refusal, felt our marriage was at an end and remembered all the wrong things I've done with her. I also recalled all the other past romantic failures with other women and wondered why I couldn't have married one of them.

 

My libido hasn't declined much at all. I have beem MB'ing like crazy these last couple of years. I've kicked porn thanks to some prayer and help from some other posters on this board like dreamingoftigers and YouGoGirl, I've been off it for months.

Maybe I've been pent-up with sexual tension at all that I've been missing. My wife's obv. has declined. Maybe menopausal. She's 52. I'm 48.

 

Our relationship is otherwise fine for a couple, though we have our challenges.

 

What do you mean about her feeling "insecure"?

 

You do provide some good advice and I really appreciate it

 

Has she had an O ever? Or just not with a partner?

 

One thing that really turned me on about my husband in the early stages is that he just wanted to give me one.

[Floridaman]

Has she had an O ever? Or just not with a partner?

One thing that really turned me on about my husband in the early stages is that he just wanted to give me one.

Dreaming,

thank you for your concern.

I respect your opinions and appreciate your concern. You're a good woman who has a good heart for helping people on these boards. You've helped me with another problem here.

 

I don't think she has ever had an O. I did ask her, but maybe she thought I was asking if a man ever gave her an O, so I will ask her if she's ever pleasured herself. She can of course and shouldn't be ashamed, but I think she's got some hangups that these books I'm trying to get her to read may help her with.

 

I don't know if you read the other thread where I've posted my experiences with her, http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t253953/ but I spent some time "down there" with my fingers during our most recent LM session. She seemed to really enjoy that. I cannot recall really ever doing that to her other than to get her "ready" so I could enter. In truth, I've never really thought of her enjoyment first, unfortunately.

 

I did the digital stimulation to give her some needed satisfaction - I've long been a "5 min. man" and felt I might go too soon so I tried to prolong our time (I wasn't anywhere near going too soon and never really came. Another problem for another thread).

 

I want to ask her if she can "squeeze" me with her womanhood during the act. I've read about that in the Christian sex books and it sounds like it might feel good.

 

The books are The Act of Marriage and Sheet Music. I've only read the first. I gave her the second. I asked her to read Sheet Music on the flght down here but she thought the cover - which only shows a man and woman in bed with only their naked feet sticking out of the end of the sheets- too provacative!!!

 

I told her that's crazy and that cover wouldn't offend anyone on a flight.

 

I am her second. She only ML to a former fiance upon engagement about 10 years before meeting me. She told me it was vanilla, missionary-style sex, much like what she gives to me.

[Floridaman]

Originally Posted by dreamingoftigers

Has she had an O ever? Or just not with a partner?

I talked about this with her. She has never had an orgasm through self-stimulation or otherwise.

 

I posted this on the other thread but may be useful here:

An Update:This is all just an illusion. That "three times on a Sunday" was clearly an aberration as I couldn't even get a "one time on a Sunday" this weekend, despite how long we spent cuddling and kissing on the couch (like 3 hours).

 

We're doing fine on the cuddling so I proceed to caress her chest and don't get blocked. Do that for maybe 5 mins. and am ready to take it to the next level and she shuts me down.

 

I "pressure her" too much and use the "we only have limited time" together rationale too frequently.

 

I told her I cannot live without having her sexually and how it's killing me. This isn't what real married people do.

 

Yeah, I get the 10-min. long deep tongue kiss, which I love, and all the cuddling I could ever want.... but nothing further.

 

Then, the next night I don't control my anger on something and she holds it against me and other things. The next a.m., I sarcastically say, "You'll be sure to find another reason to block me.... as usual..."

 

So I gave her another reason to form a barrier between us: my p***ed-off attitude. Great strategy there to ruin our holiday time together.

[aerogurl87]

The word 'marry' means to be joined and with a positive relationship (sexual or otherwise), we are joined (married) to them, at least to an extent. If we are in a loving relationship with someone we are in fact married to them. We do not need a church or the State's permission to be married - to be joined.

 

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention a woman and a man having a ceremony to get married. It's only stipulation is that a man become one with his wife and the way you do that is mostly by sex. Hence why back in medieval times a marriage could be annulled if it hadn't been consumated. Consumation is the joining together of the two to make them one flesh, and thus husband and wife who are bound together from that point on.

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

I don't believe in the 'no sex before marriage' thing, and here's why...

 

The bible states that even looking at a woman in lust makes you have fornicated with her. How many of us have looked at porn before, or looked at a girl/guy in the street and said in your mind, "Man, wouldn't I love to have that?"

 

If that is having sex with someone, and is on the same level as actually having sex with the person, why not actually have sex? That makes all of us 'sinners', in some respect.

 

I am a Christian, I believe in God and Jesus, and I follow the bible to some extent. However, there are some things that I think are false, and that is one of them. The bible was written by man, and some stuff got mistranslated along the way, I think.

 

Plus, people are marrying later in life (in their late 20's/early 30's), and when the bible was written, people were marrying in their teens (just when you start to have sexual thoughts and feelings.) Therefore, the 'no sex before marriage' ideal is outdated. It simply does not work with our current society.

[Floridaman]

I don't believe in the 'no sex before marriage' thing, and here's why...

 

The bible states that even looking at a woman in lust makes you have fornicated with her. How many of us have looked at porn before, or looked at a girl/guy in the street and said in your mind, "Man, wouldn't I love to have that?"

 

If that is having sex with someone, and is on the same level as actually having sex with the person, why not actually have sex? That makes all of us 'sinners', in some respect.

I understand your frustration and as a man, also have lust issues.

 

Don't want to start a debate on religion and throw out scriptural verses, but I think the meaning of lust, in the original Greek language, is a little diff. than what's translated.

 

Just like "Thou shall not kill..." That doesn't mean someone can't ever kill... like in war.

 

I think it means premeditated murder... which is diff. from someone defending their home or that a police officer can't shoot and kill a man trying to kidnap a child or rape a woman or a perpetrator using violance to harm another person.

"Kill" means diff. things and there are varying degrees of intensity in words.

 

Lust in the context of that passage you cited, from what I recall, means more than just someone naturally "noticing" and "thinking" about an attractive woman.

 

It means someone dwelling on for long periods of time and only thinking about having sex with that neighbor's wife to where it becomes an obsession, or coveting someone else's job or bank account. "In his heart..." is like "taking it to heart..."

That kind of thing.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Floridaman

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

Well, what about those of us who have celebrity fantasies? We don't know that person, yet we want to have sex with them...?

 

It just doesn't work in a current society state of context. In society today, sex sells. It's the people who wait until marriage who are considered 'outdated.'

[Floridaman]

Well, what about those of us who have celebrity fantasies? We don't know that person, yet we want to have sex with them...?

 

It just doesn't work in a current society state of context. In society today, sex sells. It's the people who wait until marriage who are considered 'outdated.'

Societal mores and norms shouldn't be considered the arbitrar of what's right.

Think slavery or women not allowed to vote or speak in public like in some Middle Eastern countries. Or women in some African countries that have their vaginal areas mutilated...

 

On celeb. fantasies, I don't think that's a good idea. Sure, notice how some celeb is attractive and you may have a passing thought of being sexual with that person (who hasn't) but to obsess over it, to only think about having sex with that person (any person, not just someone famous)... wouldn't be constructive.

 

I can go online and find images of things I shouldn't see (yes, I used to view regular straight porn). I imagine I could find images of sick things like young girls (9-13 y.o.) or view racist websites or engage in ethnic jokes or find websites that make fun of the handicapped or people in diff. countries, etc., but that's not healthy for anyone to do any of those things.

 

Lust, in the context of what you were talking about, is more than just a passing glance or thought. It means to focus only on that. Spending all your time thinking about an immoral (having your neighbor's wife) or illegal (robbing a bank) act wouldn't be healthy.

 

You are free to do what you want, but not everything is good to do.

I hope you understand (speaking from experience, not throwing stones at anyone).

GIGO- garbage in, garbage out.

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

Societal mores and norms shouldn't be considered the arbitrar of what's right.

Think slavery or women not allowed to vote or speak in public like in some Middle Eastern countries. Or women in some African countries that have their vaginal areas mutilated...

 

On celeb. fantasies, I don't think that's a good idea. Sure, notice how some celeb is attractive and you may have a passing thought of being sexual with that person (who hasn't) but to obsess over it, to only think about having sex with that person (any person, not just someone famous)... wouldn't be constructive.

 

I can go online and find images of things I shouldn't see (yes, I used to view regular straight porn). I imagine I could find images of sick things like young girls (9-13 y.o.) or view racist websites or engage in ethnic jokes or find websites that make fun of the handicapped or people in diff. countries, etc., but that's not healthy for anyone to do any of those things.

 

Lust, in the context of what you were talking about, is more than just a passing glance or thought. It means to focus only on that. Spending all your time thinking about an immoral (having your neighbor's wife) or illegal (robbing a bank) act wouldn't be healthy.

 

You are free to do what you want, but not everything is good to do.

I hope you understand (speaking from experience, not throwing stones at anyone).

GIGO- garbage in, garbage out.

 

I can see your viewpoint, and I agree.

 

Also, I haven't been obsessed with any particular celebrity in at least 10 years, maybe more. It's fun to fantasize about celebrities, but when it all comes down to it, it's only a fantasy. And it's better to engage in real life relationships.

 

However, I disagree that it's immoral to fantasize about said celebrities, or even to fantasize at all. As long as you keep your emotions in check, and your fantasies aren't a danger to yourself or others, I think it's fine. God wouldn't have put the thoughts in our heads if he didn't think of them himself (after all, he made us in his image.)

[Floridaman]

[/u]However, I disagree that it's immoral to fantasize about said celebrities, or even to fantasize at all. As long as you keep your emotions in check, and your fantasies aren't a danger to yourself or others, I think it's fine. God wouldn't have put the thoughts in our heads if he didn't think of them himself (after all, he made us in his image.)

That makes sense. Remember, he doesn't give us more than what we can handle and was tempted in all ways.... so sexual temptation was likely a part of that...

 

You state you're a Christian, so that's why I opined.

 

Simple fantasy is diff. than obsessing or dwelling, which I think you understand how one is a little more involved than merely having thoughts about that hot girl you see.... Yeah, I have those thoughts too so know where you're coming from...

 

Maybe it's like seeing some rich guy's yacht or getting envious of someone who's higher than you on the corporate ladder.

Sure, you can think of how nice it would be to have that yacht, or be the VP of said co.

You may fantasize about it and the women he has.

 

But if all you think about is eyeing something that's not your's, and you start to think of improper ways of getting said yacht (stealing) or job (conniving, sleeping your way to the top, bribery,etc.) then it's not good for your mind.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Floridaman

[Truthseeker-John]

The irony of all this is that I do actually believe in God. But I don't believe that God expects us to somehow deny or suppress the natural urges that he gave us until we sign a contract. Nor do I believe that God demands us to sign a contract with someone we love.

Of course not.

[Truthseeker-John]

... Just like "Thou shall not kill..." That doesn't mean someone can't ever kill... like in war.

All wars are orchestrated... and like lemmings people follow their 'leader' whether political or religious. Edited January 22, 2011 by Truthseeker-John

[taiko]

All wars are orchestrated... and like lemmings people follow their 'leader' whether political or religious.

 

Well he wasn't talking about the state of war but rather a poetic English translation of the Hebrew concept for "murder" into "kill". In some cases it comes down to who you believe the person stating he was giving authority by an organization or perhaps God himself to interpret the Book or someone you trust who is conversationally fluent in both the ancient language of the text and the language you speak today.

 

 

And if they can miss on something as basic as one of ten commandments written in stone then what else could they be getting wrong?