Would you stay in a sexless marriage?

[JamesM]

well, James, it is a difference and a huge different. She did say that some time ago (a couple of years ago and then again last year in the car after MC), but then the other day she did say she does love me. I still don't think she loves me like when we met.

 

Ok...clarification. Did she say this recently? When she said recently that she loved you, did she say it with feeling or as a passing statement?

 

My wife said one day four and a half years ago that she lost the feelings that she had for me and that scared her, but then she also said she loved me. The feelings that she meant were the feelings of passion that come at the beginning.

 

People say comments and mean them differently than we take them. To me, "losing the feelings" mean love, but to her they meant sexual feelings.

 

Perhaps your wife did not mean emotional love but the physical love connection. To us men, they are the same, but to many women they are not.

 

Did that make sense?

 

 

You know, you say it would be a deal breaker for you, but I'm perfectly aware that people change in marriage and grow apart.

 

Or it would be a challenge to win back her love.

 

I agree we do change in marriage. And if she said this awhile back and it was after your last ultimatum to leave her, then it could also be a defense mechanism to hold back her own pain and deliver some pain to you.

 

I know my wife (as you know yours, I am sure). She makes comments that are out of anger and pain. These can be taken as comments of the moment. My wife's comment that she was losing feelings for me and the one that I should get sex elsewhere were comments of the moment...assuming that comments and actions following negated them.

 

So with your wife. She may have said she lost some love for you, but if her comments and actions following negated them, then I guess you can take them as said in the heat of the moment.

 

I was shocked, but then I rationalized it, as usual. She didn't say she had fallen out of love with me, but just that her love for me had changed...maybe it was just a different way of saying "I love you but..."

 

It could simply be that at that moment she felt that way due to all that was going on. Just as we can quit loving someone, we can begin to love them all over again.

 

To us men, we see love evaporating when sex evaporates. When we have good sex lives, we assume the love is strong. Neither conclusion is necessary true. If today your wife made a resolution unbeknownst to you that she would have sex with you as often as you liked, then you may assume that her love for you is stronger than ever. Yet in reality it may only indicate that she doesn't want to lose her family. Her love may not have changed. And the reverse is true. If she has less interest in sex over the years, then this may have nothing to do with the strength of her love and have everything to do with something else.

 

And that is the question. My first thought when I made my last post was that this was a recent comment and a frequent comment. The question is....does the comment that she loves you less mean that less sex is due to her lack of desire to express love to you, or is her lack of desire for sex completely separate from the level of love for you?

 

I can still say that if MC could work, then I would move that direction. I read that you did MC in the past, and obviously it did not have a long term effect on your marriage...ro so it seems. Do you think it would help now? Do you have the desire or energy or the love for her to try MC again?

 

Or does divorce seem to be the inevitable next step?

 

EDIT...I see you answered some of the questions I had since my last post.

[giotto]

 

Or does divorce seem to be the inevitable next step?

 

 

The problem is that, with limited sex and sex as a struggle all these years, I just lost the connection with her. We retreated in our little shells.

 

As long as I can have sex occasionally and keep the connection going - and yes, I cannot have a proper connection with my wife without sex - I will stay, at least until the little one flees the nest. After that, I don't really know. But if we have to struggle again, I will be packing my bags, because I've had enough of struggles and humiliation.

[giotto]

Giotto, you sound so sad, so resigned.... (((((hug))))) You're only 47!! Far too young to be sliding into middle aged depression!

 

I'm not depressed or resigned... but I might get depressed if we don't solve the issues. Of course it's a R problem, but for me sex is part of the R and I cannot have a proper R without the physical connection... I don't know, maybe I'm shallow...

 

BTW, wife has been nice to me - even smiling - the last couple of days...

[Lizzie60]

I'm not depressed or resigned... but I might get depressed if we don't solve the issues. Of course it's a R problem, but for me sex is part of the R and I cannot have a proper R without the physical connection... I don't know, maybe I'm shallow...

 

BTW, wife has been nice to me - even smiling - the last couple of days...

 

Oh my.. this is even worst.. you're even 'noticing' the smiles now.. it is sadder than I thought..

 

When I read the bold part.. I just thought.. this is like giving a treat to a dog.. to keep him happy...

[xxoo]

If you are growing afraid of each other and even smiles are rare, then I don't think you are doing each other or the children any good staying together. You both deserve a chance at happiness, and your children deserve a healthier example.

[giotto]

If you are growing afraid of each other and even smiles are rare, then I don't think you are doing each other or the children any good staying together. You both deserve a chance at happiness, and your children deserve a healthier example.

 

We are civilised around each other and never argue in front of them. Having said that, I don't think we are setting a very good example. We never kiss or hug or anything physical in front of them. I'm sure they'll grow up thinking this is how a marriage should be. It is business-like, but there's lots to do in the house... at least, I hope, they will remember us as hard working parents who were always there for them, although maybe not a lot for each other...

[giotto]

When I read the bold part.. I just thought.. this is like giving a treat to a dog.. to keep him happy...

 

yes, Lizzie, this is how I feel as well... she wants me to be happy, so she doesn't feel guilty and she doesn't have to go to therapy... I'm afraid it has nothing to do with my happiness, but hers...

[BettyBoop]

at least, I hope, they will remember us as hard working parents who were always there for them, although maybe not a lot for each other...

 

I thought I should mention that my b/f's parents are very much obviously not in love and not my boyfriend, but his younger brother thinks that is the ideal marriage and sees it for what he thinks a marriage will inevitably become. Loveless.

 

What I remember from the five last years my parents were together is two unhappy parents, a home that felt as fake as can be - and the feeling of wanting to leave so badly (which I did the moment I turned 19 and finished school). My brother left as soon as he could too and spend as much time as he could studying abroad. It was that bad. (But then again we had the mother who would confront and fight my dad openly before us.)

 

Don't teach your children loveless marriages...if you're gonna stay then for the sake of the kids try falling back in love. I hate loveless stupid marriages where the parents "stay for the kids". I'd been soo much better off if my parents had not. (Sorry, I tend to get emotional with this.) <.<

[BettyBoop]

She is giving me sex to keep me quiet, so she doesn't have to face her ghosts... I know this now...

 

To be honest, all I want at the age of 47 is a quiet life, with a bit of (hot) sex thrown in , a happy wife (if she can ever be happy) and healthy children, until the 9 years old goes to uni... then I'll probably be off...

 

I guess that is what you can have if you can be happy with that. I hope you will be happy, Giotto. I think you deserve that.

 

You only have one life.

[BettyBoop]

You both deserve a chance at happiness, and your children deserve a healthier example.

 

I second that.

[cuppa]

yes, Lizzie, this is how I feel as well... she wants me to be happy, so she doesn't feel guilty and she doesn't have to go to therapy... I'm afraid it has nothing to do with my happiness, but hers...

 

giotto, you, me, same boat. either decision won't be easy though. I'm not trying to scare you into making the decision but grass is always greener on the other side. There are a lot of depressed singles who are looking for loves and keep having disappointments too and there are people like us (some happy days and some bad days).

 

I think your strategy is good (wait until the young one to go to your university). In the mean time, maintain yourself well (emotionally & physically) so when the time comes, you will be ready.

[mem11363]

G,

THIS is the conversation you need to have with her. Use a soft - extra calm delivery style and explain that the idea that you have to wait for her and that if she "forgets" you aren't allowed to explicitly remind her is unacceptable to you. It is WAY too stressful to be super sexually frustrated/tense feeling unloved and have no idea if/when wife is going to make the effort to connect with you.

 

Your pattern here is intense conflict including threat of divorce - followed by total avoidance of conflict. And I don't mean using harsh words - or loud voices. Quite the opposite. I am suggesting conflict that is very mild in style and very firm in substance.

 

There have been moments in my marriage where I have very calmly stated that we needed to resolve something that was NOT acceptable to me and that I needed to know she was committed to working on it with me. The idea that you "are not allowed to discuss this topic" is ludicrous on the face of it.

 

If you allow her to intimidate you (which is clearly what this seems like to an objective third party) into not being able to discuss your needs EVEN WHEN SHE IS IGNORING YOU - then you will end up angry/bitter and resentful.

 

You have already gone through 15 years of being denied - why are you agreeable to continuing in a pattern where you aren't even allowed to talk about this subject?

 

Just remember G - she is always too fragile/upset/damaged to do ANYTHING for you up until the moment she sees you are leaving and then suddenly she finds that she is fully capable of meeting your needs.

 

The pattern of behavior - the day she smiled and you and acted happy after you told her you would accept the idea of not having sex - she treats you like pavlovs dog.

 

I wish I could do all of this... it just doesn't work with her.. she runs back into her shell... it has to be a subtle psychological game... unfortunately, I'm not always able to play psychological games, especially after 2 weeks of no sex... I really do hope all this will change with therapy... but I doubt it she will go. I got the impression she's decided to give me sex so I'm happy and she doesn't have to face all the difficult bits...

[giotto]

G,

THIS is the conversation you need to have with her. Use a soft - extra calm delivery style and explain that the idea that you have to wait for her and that if she "forgets" you aren't allowed to explicitly remind her is unacceptable to you. It is WAY too stressful to be super sexually frustrated/tense feeling unloved and have no idea if/when wife is going to make the effort to connect with you.

 

Your pattern here is intense conflict including threat of divorce - followed by total avoidance of conflict. And I don't mean using harsh words - or loud voices. Quite the opposite. I am suggesting conflict that is very mild in style and very firm in substance.

 

There have been moments in my marriage where I have very calmly stated that we needed to resolve something that was NOT acceptable to me and that I needed to know she was committed to working on it with me. The idea that you "are not allowed to discuss this topic" is ludicrous on the face of it.

 

If you allow her to intimidate you (which is clearly what this seems like to an objective third party) into not being able to discuss your needs EVEN WHEN SHE IS IGNORING YOU - then you will end up angry/bitter and resentful.

 

You have already gone through 15 years of being denied - why are you agreeable to continuing in a pattern where you aren't even allowed to talk about this subject?

 

Just remember G - she is always too fragile/upset/damaged to do ANYTHING for you up until the moment she sees you are leaving and then suddenly she finds that she is fully capable of meeting your needs.

 

The pattern of behavior - the day she smiled and you and acted happy after you told her you would accept the idea of not having sex - she treats you like pavlovs dog.

 

Mem, I really appreciate your advice, but I'm dealing with a very unstable person here. Everytime I mention scheduling or sex, that's it. She shuts down. It has to come from her. Yes, maybe she is manipulating me, maybe she is intimidating me, maybe I'm Pavlov's dog , but I have allowed this behaviour to continue for 15 years... do you really think I can change it like that? That's why she only responds to threats like divorce or earthquakes... she need to go to therapy and sort it out herself. She needs a psychiatrist, not me. My only defense would be that I wasn't aware of the seriousness of her condition. I am now and that's why I'm quite reluctant to be confrontational. It's up to her, really. If she doesn't take it seriously this time, I know what I'll have to do...

[JamesM]

. she need to go to therapy and sort it out herself. She needs a psychiatrist, not me. My only defense would be that I wasn't aware of the seriousness of her condition. I am now and that's why I'm quite reluctant to be confrontational. It's up to her, really. If she doesn't take it seriously this time, I know what I'll have to do...

 

And since you have dealt with this for 15 years and obviously do love her, then your goal is (I am guessing) not more sex per se, but the improvement of her mental health.

 

Whatever you can do to make her healthy is great. Perhaps it will take a separation. Since there are children, then even still divorce should be farther down the list.

 

The question is...does she really WANT to be mentally healthy? Or would she rather just have you go away so that she can continue as she is? And the question is...how do you get her to see that she needs to at the least be evaluated by a psychiatrist?

 

Having lived with a mother who had some mental issues while I was growing up, I can say that it does do damage to the children, but looking back and even as an adult, I can say that divorce would have been much worse...to say the least. She moved passed many of her issues and she is a better person for it. Divorce would have been the permanent breakup of our family, and its after effects would have always been there. Now we look back and see how mom resolved many of her issues and we still stayed together as a family during it all.

 

Hopefully she can see this as more than just Giotto wanting more sex. Hopefully you can get her to see that this is about her and about her role in the family.

[WalkInThePark]

I thought I should mention that my b/f's parents are very much obviously not in love and not my boyfriend, but his younger brother thinks that is the ideal marriage and sees it for what he thinks a marriage will inevitably become. Loveless.

 

What I remember from the five last years my parents were together is two unhappy parents, a home that felt as fake as can be - and the feeling of wanting to leave so badly (which I did the moment I turned 19 and finished school). My brother left as soon as he could too and spend as much time as he could studying abroad. It was that bad. (But then again we had the mother who would confront and fight my dad openly before us.)

 

Don't teach your children loveless marriages...if you're gonna stay then for the sake of the kids try falling back in love. I hate loveless stupid marriages where the parents "stay for the kids". I'd been soo much better off if my parents had not. (Sorry, I tend to get emotional with this.) <.<

 

My whole youth I prayed that my parents would divorce. They were such a bad match! My mother was so frustrated in her marriage and very vocal about it. I remember how my heart cringed when I was at a friend's house and really felt the love between the parents. I really felt: "I want to same!"

My parents were not parents who fought a lot. They did not hit each other, they did not drink, they were responsible with money. But they did not seem to like each other. Divorce was taboo in a small catholic village on the countryside.

My mother who always said that she would get out when the kids left the house, stayed with my father until she died way to young at 64. Cancer. Honestly, I often think she developed the cancer because dying was the only way to get rid of my father.

 

42 years of unhappiness. Sigh. I would like to have a partner but with this example in mind, I am picky.

 

Don't think that you kids don't notice it, they do.

[BettyBoop]

I can say that divorce would have been much worse...to say the least. She moved passed many of her issues and she is a better person for it.

 

As long as the person can do that, of course it's better. If you have a person like my mother - all that will happen is that she will play the "victim card" forever and blame the husband who leaves for everything that ever went wrong in the marriage. I have heard so many horrible stories about my dad from my own mother that it's strange I still have some sanity while being around him.

 

Honestly? I think if Giotto left his wife may play the victim card too and be like "It wasn't my fault. It was all him. I did my very best and that was not enough.". But will she learn from it and move past her issues? I don't think so.

 

I think there is nothing but a lose-lose situation for the kids here no matter the outcome. Giotto, I'd suggest strongly to try to recreate the intimacy and love in the relationship for the sake of the kids if you're gonna stay around for them.

[JamesM]

I am an optimistic person to the end. So I say until she has proven otherwise, there is still hope for change.

[giotto]

well, we can only try... I don't know if I can get past my issues now...

[mem11363]

But it is NOT your issue when you have a core need - you agree to a bare minimum amount of that need being met AND you also agree that you are not allowed to mention it if she is not even meeting that bare minimum.

 

G - I simply don't agree with you regarding the issue here. The issue is that she is denying you the right to speak when she mistreats you.

 

If you nicely tell her - that if she is really that fragile then you cannot be together I think you will be shocked to discover she really is NOT that fragile and is agreeable to being reminded as long as you do it nicely.

 

I am not saying that our approach will work for you - but the simple expression of the word "tonight?" with a questioning tone works for us.

 

Maybe for you the word would better be "soon?" with a questioning tone.

 

I think that it really is ok for her to insist that you not radiate anger at her on day 10 if she has "forgotten" - but being told that a friendly reminder is simply too upsetting for her and that scheduling it is too upsetting for her is just abusive to YOU. Given how badly rubbed raw your nerves are on this subject you will not likely reach a long term solution if you are barred from communicating.

 

I will say this one last time. Your wife is not this fragile mess when dealing with your kids. I don't believe you have 4 kids and that NONE of them pushes boundaries. I don't believe that no one at work ever does anything she doesn't like. Why is it that everyone else can speak freely to your wife but when you do she suddenly loses her ability to function?

 

I can say one thing with utter certainty. You would never - in terms of fairness - let her treat your kids the way she treats you and no one at her place of work would tolerate the one sided relationship from her that you do.

 

well, we can only try... I don't know if I can get past my issues now...

[giotto]

mem, she doesn't discipline the kids, I do. I think I've seen her getting angry with them maybe twice in 17 years...

 

The bottom issue is that I think sex is a core need and she doesn't. She said we are sexually incompatible, so take it or leave it. She said she'll do her best, but I have to be patient and stop looking at the calendar counting the days. We'll see... it's up to her to make and effort and it's up to me to accept it the way it is (hopefully improved) or go...

[soserious1]

mmm...

 

Well, you know, she says she is scared of me, and I'm scared of her! I think it's still early days to bring it up... she's made an effort and I don't really want to destroy everything by jumping on her (because this is how she will perceive it) too soon...

 

I've been thinking about your situation and have something to offer up.

 

Your wife works 3rd shift, there have been many studies that show workers who do have shortened life spans and greatly reduced quality of life.

 

I worked 3rd while I was in school, you don't get the same quality of sleep during the day as you do at nite. Mothers who work 3rd shift often don't get any sleep at all a lot of days because they go home and tend to children. People also assume that because you work nites that you're just available to them during the day.

 

You guys have 4 kids, I can't imagine that your wife gets a solid uninterrupted 8 hrs of sleep every day. If she's like most who work nites she's most likely suffering the effects of chronic sleep deprivation ... when she thinks of the bed

what she's thinking isn't about sex but rather can she grab 2 hrs without the phone ringing or a child being in need of something.

 

If your wife wants to feel better about anything she needs to get off the night shift.

[giotto]

I've been thinking about your situation and have something to offer up.

 

Your wife works 3rd shift, there have been many studies that show workers who do have shortened life spans and greatly reduced quality of life.

 

I worked 3rd while I was in school, you don't get the same quality of sleep during the day as you do at nite. Mothers who work 3rd shift often don't get any sleep at all a lot of days because they go home and tend to children. People also assume that because you work nites that you're just available to them during the day.

 

You guys have 4 kids, I can't imagine that your wife gets a solid uninterrupted 8 hrs of sleep every day. If she's like most who work nites she's most likely suffering the effects of chronic sleep deprivation ... when she thinks of the bed

what she's thinking isn't about sex but rather can she grab 2 hrs without the phone ringing or a child being in need of something.

 

If your wife wants to feel better about anything she needs to get off the night shift.

 

thanks for that, but my wife works two or three third shifts (we call them "nights" here) once every three weeks... so, although it does affect her that week, it's not a major problem. She still does work shifts, though, and I do believe they have an impact on her... but then, we had problems when she was working 9am-3pm 5 days a week...

[xxoo]

I think I've seen her getting angry with them maybe twice in 17 years...

.

 

That alone raises a lot of questions

[JamesM]

soserious, I agree with your comments about the third shift. I mentioned it quite a few posts ago on this thread. I do not think those who have not worked third shift for along time or those who have never worked it truly realize hw much of an effect it can have on your body and mind.

 

As I said previously, my wife worked the third shift for over ten years. She was a different person than she is now. She has been on the normal shift now for over six months and I can see many differences in her attitude and energy levels. She was much much more depressed than she is now. She has more energy again. She is much less defeatist (ie "Why bother" attitude) and is much more fun to be around. She is definitely much more affectionate.

 

Having said all that, her libido did NOT have a dramatic increase suddenly after she went to first shift. There has been some improvement but not huge strides. However, the trade off of having my wife fairly back to normal is worth it. I am inclined to believe that in time the rest will follow.

 

Personally (and I could be wrong), I think, Giotto, if you had your wife in a mentally and emotionally sound condition, then I think you would feel much better about your marriage. Feeling that you are alone in this all must be very discouraging.

[giotto]

 

Personally (and I could be wrong), I think, Giotto, if you had your wife in a mentally and emotionally sound condition, then I think you would feel much better about your marriage. Feeling that you are alone in this all must be very discouraging.

 

Well, I got used to be around a person who's a bit of a nutter...

 

It's not that discouraging. Today she is at home and she seems to be in a very good mood. I have the impression that - having solved the sex issue (within herself) that weighted a lot on her mind - she is finding easier to carry on in her life. As I said before, she has become quite good at manage her mental problems.

 

The crux of the matter is therapy. I'm waiting to see what she does about it. Probably nothing, now that she is giving me sex...

 

All in all, our latest confrontation has served a purpose: to remind her that my needs are there and that she has to take them seriously... we'll see, but I believe the message was strong and clear...