Mystery Method, Mind of Mystery, PUA

[Trialbyfire]

I am upfront, but how do I know about what kind of things I am supposed to be upfront? It seems that people have different ideas about that, what is important and what not.

Then you're not being manipulative.

 

For example, my first gf wasn't too happy that I had served and was a reservist. I hadn't mentioned it right away and she had never asked. I didn't think it would be an issue and she didn't know it would actually bother her. The guys she had dated previously were conscientious objectors, so that had never been an issue for her before.

 

In other instances, I tried to correct things if I thought that she (or later other women I dated) had gotten the wrong impression of me. Even if she didn't ask for clarification.

The reservist portion is only manipulative if you were aware that she was a conscientious objector. If not, it's not manipulative. Also, why didn't she ask you about your past? This falls within the bounds of getting to know someone. You have to ask key questions about what's important to you, as a person.

Actually, I don't understand that. Why would you say that not disclosing the multi-dating is manipulative and not disclosing that one is sleeping with other people is the problem of the person who wants to be exclusive?

 

That seems rather arbitrary to me. Shouldn't they both be considered to be the same thing? And I guess that is my whole point. We aren't mind readers, what are the things we need to volunteer and what are the things we only have to disclose when asked?

 

We can only follow our own moral compass here, but that moral compass obviously varies from person to person.

I see where that might be confusing. Say that someone tells you upfront that they're multi-dating. You know point blank, that they're seeing other people so there is the possibility that they're also sleeping with multiple people. To me, that's just logical progression unless they've specifically stated that they don't sleep with multiple people, engage you in a sexual relationship, then you find out that they're sleeping around.

I think playing to your strengths is okay, but I can see why some people might disagree.

 

Advertising your strengths when dating could be construed as manipulative because that means you downplay your weaknesses at the same time.

Nope, you can play to your strengths and not downplay your weaknesses. It's the way you handle it, that matters.

 

Oh, so that people are aware and don't think that I'm trying to portray myself as an angel, I do play games while dating but only with players. If I know that a guy is a player, in the past, I have played these guys, just to waste their time.

 

And yes, I have been suckered by players before.

[meerkat stew]

The plastic surgery industry has annual revenues of over $2 billion.

 

Wonder what the annual revenues of the PUA industry are?

[meerkat stew]

The fragrance industry has over $2 billion in annual revenues.

 

Wonder what the annual revenues of the PUA industry are?

[meerkat stew]

In the United States, people are free to date whomever they like until a mutual agreement to date exclusively is reached. Otherwise, if people do not have the right to date whomever they like, what purpose do exclusivity agreements serve?

 

So the presumption lies with the position that the right to multi-date is inherent within the right to date whomever one wants because multi-dating falls reasonably within the definition of "whomever," and so no disclosure of multi-dating, in and of itself, is necessary because the right to do that is presumed before exclusivity.

 

Or if it is actually proper that a dater disclose multi-dating before an exclusivity agreement is reached, it would require the creation of a dating etiquette rule which I do not believe currently exists.

 

Now in other countries, where dating is presumed exclusive from the start, and people presume an agreement to date exclusively, a disclosure of multi-dating would be expected, but such is not the case in the U.S.

[Stockalone]

The reservist portion is only manipulative if you were aware that she was a conscientious objector. If not, it's not manipulative. Also, why didn't she ask you about your past? This falls within the bounds of getting to know someone.

 

We talked about it when we rather accidentally stumbled over the topic.

 

People actually never suspect that I used to be a soldier when that topic comes up. They assume that I opted for alternative service because of my mellow character.

 

But to be fair, I rarely mention it since there isn't much to talk about IMO. And come to think of it, I never had a woman ask me whether I did alternative service or if I had served. I guess since I usually don't mention it, they could think that I did neither, plenty of men get a free pass and have to do nothing at all.

 

 

I see where that might be confusing. Say that someone tells you upfront that they're multi-dating. You know point blank, that they're seeing other people so there is the possibility that they're also sleeping with multiple people. To me, that's just logical progression unless they've specifically stated that they don't sleep with multiple people, engage you in a sexual relationship, then you find out that they're sleeping around.

 

Okay, I understand now. I consider that a possibility too when I hear that someone is multi-dating.

 

But not everyone does. They think that multi-dating is not worth mentioning (it has to be expected), but sleeping with other people should absolutely be disclosed. That confused me quite a bit as that makes no sense in my opinion.

 

 

Nope, you can play to your strengths and not downplay your weaknesses. It's the way you handle it, that matters.

 

There are so many things to consider. My head is already spinning.

 

 

You have to ask key questions about what's important to you, as a person.

 

That pretty much sums it up. Better to ask a few questions too many than one too few.

[sally4sara]

In the United States, people are free to date whomever they like until a mutual agreement to date exclusively is reached. Otherwise, if people do not have the right to date whomever they like, what purpose do exclusivity agreements serve?

 

So the presumption lies with the position that the right to multi-date is inherent within the right to date whomever one wants because multi-dating falls reasonably within the definition of "whomever," and so no disclosure of multi-dating, in and of itself, is necessary because the right to do that is presumed before exclusivity.

 

Or if it is actually proper that a dater disclose multi-dating before an exclusivity agreement is reached, it would require the creation of a dating etiquette rule which I do not believe currently exists.

 

Now in other countries, where dating is presumed exclusive from the start, and people presume an agreement to date exclusively, a disclosure of multi-dating would be expected, but such is not the case in the U.S.

 

I'm not sure what United States you live in, but the one I live in didn't always find me guys who felt okay with in when I divulged up front that I was multi dating. I did find some who were fine with it while others bowed out. You will find, simply by starting another thread asking (or looking at the threads we've already had on the subject) that you will find different expectations and styles within any area you go. Even here in the U.S.

 

So, as to avoid drama, it is probably best to just be up front and honest. If you can't keep dating the people you are dating while being honest about dating others, the people you are dating have a different style and you shouldn't waste their time or lie to keep them around. I really don't think "But we live in the U.S. baby!" is going to get someone to change their mind if it bothers them to date someone who is also dating others.

[meerkat stew]

So, as to avoid drama, it is probably best to just be up front and honest.

 

If they want to know who else someone is dating, it is their duty to ask, as the fact that we use exclusivity agreements generally in the U.S., all the way from grade school going steady, presumes that if such an agreement is not in place we are free to date whomever until such an agreement is in place.

 

People with a differing, minority view have the burden of making arrangements and asking questions that accommodate their view, not the other way around.

 

I am always up front and honest with my dates. They are free to date whomever, and how ever many whomevers they like before exclusivity, as am I. If they are uncomfortable with this well-established social custom, it is up to them to mention it, not me.

[sally4sara]

If they want to know who else someone is dating, it is their duty to ask, as the fact that we use exclusivity agreements generally in the U.S., all the way from grade school going steady, presumes that if such an agreement is not in place we are free to date whomever until such an agreement is in place.

 

People with a differing, minority view have the burden of making arrangements and asking questions that accommodate their view, not the other way around.

 

I am always up front and honest with my dates. They are free to date whomever, and how ever many whomevers they like before exclusivity, as am I. If they are uncomfortable with this well-established social custom, it is up to them to mention it, not me.

 

What I found is MOST guys I casually dated assumed I was only dating them. I made sure they knew what was up. Kinda hard to avoid really if you're being honest with the people you're dating.

 

On the phone guy "So would you like to go see Generic Local Band play at Generic Local Bar with me this Friday night?"

Me "Sorry but I can't. I have other plans already."

Him "Anything cool? I'm open to suggestions if you think Generic Local Band sucks."

Me "Well, I was asked to go do something else by someone else."

Him "There is a someone else?"

Me "Yes. (and here is where being upfront is a benefit) I told you I am still open to dating others -remember? I was asked to go do something earlier this week."

 

Guy can't really pitch too much of a fit at this point. He can only choose to not call again or decline my offers if he finds the situation to be too much for him past abstract concept. Its not like I had reason to feel guilty or manipulative at that point. It would, however, be different if I had not let him know what was up before taking up his time and attention.

 

PUA would not place much attention on the being up front part. Your style (and the PUA style) allows people to fall victim to vibe and assumption. Sure, one can ask, but then again, one can always just go ahead and tell too. IMO, doing anything less than being upfront is a cowardly way of handling casual dating and I'm no coward. I still often found more dates than I could manage. Sorry it doesn't work that way for you.

[meerkat stew]

Still would love to hear how the tiny PUA industry is in any way different from the near $20 billion cosmetics/plastic surgery/fragrance industries. IMO, those industries are different only in that the PUA industry requires more proactivity in the use of its products than those other industries.

 

PUA culture is equivalent to cosmetics in terms of being inherently deceptive. We don't think of cosmetics as deception, PUA isn't either then.

[zwieback.toast]

I don't know from being a PUA.

 

Anything that's going to help a shy person talk to more women is probably a help, though.

[meerkat stew]

What I found is MOST guys I casually dated assumed I was only dating them. I made sure they knew what was up. Kinda hard to avoid really if you're being honest with the people you're dating.

 

On the net, where I do lots of dating, there is a very strong presumption that everyone is dating others from the site. And true, there is a breaking point. If someone is dating 4 different people every week from a site, of course they have an obligation to tell because then it would be reasonable to conclude that they aren't really seriously dating at all, just farming attention.

 

It's admirable that you would want to accommodate people with a minority view on this, shows consideration. I might do the same, but the key is that before exclusivity, it is a choice to disclose multi-dating, not an obligation. Not something someone could call foul over. Would be something like a date assuming one were a virgin, their duty to ask, not our duty to tell.

 

The cowardly implication is unwarranted. Custom is on the side of the multi-dater, not the person who thinks that is poor form.

[eXtremeMan]

One of the reasons why I ended up in a LTR with a really sweet, beautiful (model-type) woman, is because I was incredibly direct when we met in a club. I find that women who have a lot of options don't like guys who pussyfoot around.

 

I just told her that I find her sexy, I told her some crazy sex stories, pinned her against the wall and next thing we were making out. We had sex soon after.

 

And yes, I've been a student of seduction for a few years now (I don't like the word PUA, it reminds me of douchebags with ridiculous clothes who run around clubs like chipmunks on meth).

 

My chick knew what the score was early on, and she liked my level of directness. There was absolutely nothing dishonest about my intentions. I was just sexually direct, and while that weeds out a lot of women with "magic pussy" syndrome, it allows me to meet some exquisite women who are in tune with their sexual nature.

 

I know quite a lot of seducers.... most of them are perfectly honest people looking for high quality women. Some of them are guys who just look for one night stands in clubs. I know a guy who regularly gets blowjobs in club bathrooms, and he clearly tells women he won't meet them afterward.

 

Women who are looking for incredibly serious relationships and marriage, will of course filter out PUA types and vice versa. Women who are looking to have some fun, and like direct and sexual guys, will be with such guys. There's market for everyone out there. There's absolutely no reason to cast hate on anyone.

[meerkat stew]

(I don't like the word PUA, it reminds me of douchebags with ridiculous clothes who run around clubs like chipmunks on meth).

 

Well PUA has fewer keystrokes and people know what it means. Otherwise agree with you and very nice club visual

 

"magic pussy" syndrome

 

Perfect label, and responsible for so many gender problems these days.

[sally4sara]

On the net, where I do lots of dating, there is a very strong presumption that everyone is dating others from the site. And true, there is a breaking point. If someone is dating 4 different people every week from a site, of course they have an obligation to tell because then it would be reasonable to conclude that they aren't really seriously dating at all, just farming attention.

 

It's admirable that you would want to accommodate people with a minority view on this, shows consideration. I might do the same, but the key is that before exclusivity, it is a choice to disclose multi-dating, not an obligation. Not something someone could call foul over. Would be something like a date assuming one were a virgin, their duty to ask, not our duty to tell.

 

The cowardly implication is unwarranted. Custom is on the side of the multi-dater, not the person who thinks that is poor form.

 

Maybe. I have never gone the online dating route. Perhaps there is a forum that goes with in an explains some standard online dating guidelines?

I still felt much more at ease being upfront about things. Especially when my first marriage had just failed and the last thing on my list of priorities was finding something serious.

[meerkat stew]

Maybe. I have never gone the online dating route. Perhaps there is a forum that goes with in an explains some standard online dating guidelines?

I still felt much more at ease being upfront about things. Especially when my first marriage had just failed and the last thing on my list of priorities was finding something serious.

 

Dating was practically dead in the water as an institution when online dating started to flourish. Many younger folks I know have never had an official date other than to a prom or invitation type events, yet have relationships and active social lives.

 

Point is, online dating is where dating etiquette is set these days, as a majority of official non-specific event dates between adults likely originate on a dating site.

[gypsy_nicky]

In the United States, people are free to date whomever they like until a mutual agreement to date exclusively is reached. Otherwise, if people do not have the right to date whomever they like, what purpose do exclusivity agreements serve?

 

 

that's very circular.

[Phateless]

that's very circular.

 

Not really, it makes sense. He's saying that if ALL DATING is exclusive by assumption, then there would be no need for exclusivity agreements in the first place.

 

Dating is open and non-exclusive until both parties specifically agree on a committed relationship.

[Stockalone]

Dating is open and non-exclusive until both parties specifically agree on a committed relationship.

 

But where does it state that this is how it works?

 

It certainly isn't an intuitive concept. I never thought that things start out as non-exclusive and people might be dating more than one person at a time.