Mystery Method, Mind of Mystery, PUA

[Trialbyfire]

Validation has nothing to do with it. It's about living the life that you want to live. If you're looking for approval or validation, you're going about it wrong...just as one shouldn't worry about DISAPPROVAL from people who think enjoying the company of many women is somehow wrong.

 

Can't turn off the italics.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the company of many women, if it's done in an ethical fashion. Once you start getting into player routines of lying, lying by omission and getting laid by manipulation, that's when it's wrong.

[Woggle]

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the company of many women, if it's done in an ethical fashion. Once you start getting into player routines of lying, lying by omission and getting laid by manipulation, that's when it's wrong.

 

If the goal is for a man to get laid and this acheives that goal what is so wrong with it?

[Stockalone]

I just can't seen the sense in further promoting the concept that sleeping with anyone who responds to be something that makes a man a better man.

The guys who really need advise don't value themselves enough already to have the confidence to approach women as much as men who do have confidence.

 

The following post isn't directed at you specifically, but also a general post regarding PUA.

 

I can see your point and I am certain that plenty of guys abuse the things they learned there or even are being taught the wrong things. I haven't read any PUA books, so I can't say how dangerous or harmless they really are.

 

That said, I have read articles, excerpts and watched online clips. I also took a look at the forums after that topic came up on LS some time ago. There are plenty of things that I find disturbing, but there are a lot of things said there, that work. Most men have seen that first hand in real life and we can even see that here on the board. I will also admit that from my POV, a lot of it seems to be smoke and mirrors, but just like marketing, plenty of people are receptive to it, some more than others. And if you want to sell a product (which is what they are doing), then that can only help them.

 

In a way, that is what you need in the dating world too. You need to be able to attract the opposite gender first and foremost. That is the initial, crucial hurdle. If you fail at that, everything else is moot.

 

And I believe that is exactly where the PUA thing can help. I don't think you need things like the lay reports or the merciless rating system. You don't need extreme nagging. All of that is not necessary or helpful IMO, but it's probably a way to sell the books, seminars. They want to make money and for that, they have to sell a product that can do what you say it can do. The lay reports initially were probably used to show that this stuff actually works. It's like showing how the balding dude looks like after he used your hair growth product. I believe the terminology is IMO used for that very reason too. As far as relationships between men and women are concerned, I think it would be far less problematic, less offensive to women and also more honest without all of the above.

 

But again, they want to sell stuff and the terminology makes it sound "scientific". That is IMO a great relief for clueless men. Tell a man he needs to do A,B and then C to get result D, it makes it believable and achievable. It's like your first paper route. Look for a job, then get a job, then make money, and eventually you'll be able to afford to buy the things you like. It's an incentive. It's not true with dating, but that isn't the point. You need to motivate people.

 

Tell a man that dating is not a science, that most of it is luck and a numbers game, and he will be reluctant to try again. If you tell him that he can get in shape, be respectful towards women, learn to make conversation and despite his best efforts, he might still not be able to get a girl, you take away the incentive. People who turn to the PUA stuff are already disappointed/disillusioned, if you take away hope too, you have nothing left to work with.

 

And while you don't want a man to think of women as less than him, you don't want him to be a stammering mess when he talks to a woman either. Making it seem like a scientific project, or a mission if you will, will allow the guy to make a more detached approach. Usually, that can only help. Just think of the guy you were talking about who after "10 minutes (...) starts talking about her having his "babbies"."

 

But I also see a potential problem with using that kind of terminology, that detached approach. It makes it easier to dehumanize women, just another conquest. I see that as a serious risk, because coupled with prior issues a man might have, this can turn really ugly really quick. It can lead to the following thinking: I have done everything I am supposed to do and it still doesn't work. It can create entitlement (I deserve to get laid), create resentment (stupid b*tch, she didn't want to sleep with me) and it can lead to refusing to rethink his own behaviour (I have done nothing wrong, it's all the women's fault)

 

However, despite all those problems and legitimate concerns, there aren't a lot of alternatives for guys who have a hard time relating to women in the first place. What if you can't attract women? There is no "Dating 101" in college where you could learn some basics.

 

There are so many questions:How do I strike up a conversation and more importantly, how do I hold a conversation with a woman? How do I know if a woman is interested and not just being friendly? How do I keep my mind from going blank when I talk to a woman? How do I keep my expectations at bay? How do I handle rejection? When is the right time to kiss her, how do I even know that she wants to be kissed? How does a woman use body language, what does it mean? How can I tap into a woman's feelings, get her interested and entertained? That list goes on and on. That kind of questions are most likely trivial to many people but there was so much that I never understood (and still don't understand).

 

And as another poster already mentioned, most men who are naturally gifted when it comes to talking to women, are the most useless teachers. Either they don't want to share what they know, or, and IME that is more likely, they simply don't know to help those less fortunate guys. The best advice you can hope for is "do what I do". That doesn't really work.

 

You mentioned something else, validation. I think you have a point there, but you also seem to underestimate the reasoning. If a man can't get laid, he will catch a lot of flak from other guys, especially when he is young. He can be subject to ridicule, plenty of bad jokes at his expense, etc.. Peer pressure does exist. And men are competitive. If you don't have friends who you can rely on, I can only imagine how difficult that is.

 

But a man will hear a lot of the same from women too. A guy who can't get laid? He sounds like a loser, a creep, maybe he is gay, there is obviously something wrong with him. Just take a look around LS. Many women don't want a virgin or a guy who has little relationship experience, they don't want to teach the guy.

 

Then again, I have known plenty of men who had flings and ONS and called those women sluts behind their back. As long as they are also capable of relating to a woman in a different, respectful way, they had little trouble of getting into relationships. I don't think that women specifically search for a guy who treated plenty of other women in the past like garbage. But I also doubt that most women ask or care if their bf used to treat other women like garbage.

 

I think the majority of women care only about how the man she is with, treats her, what he did before he met her is not really important. Maybe I am being too harsh, but I don't really see the downside. A guy can treat 10 women very poorly and when he treats the 11th women with respect, there is a good chance that he will get away with it.

 

 

If a guy didn't care about approval or disapproval, he'd likely have enough confidence in himself that he wouldn't have needed to seek the book out to begin with.

 

I disagree, though it's possible you are right.

 

Normally, I would assume that a guy who turns to PUA for help started with the following.

 

 

1. I do what my mother said women would like.

 

That doesn't work because my mother failed to tell me how to attract a woman. That stuff she told me only works when you actually are in a relationship. If you are really lucky, the woman you approach will find you very attractive physically and then there is a chance that she won't be scared away if you are too needy/attentive in the beginning.

 

 

2. I am talking to girls, just being myself.

 

That doesn't work because I talk to them like I would talk to my sister. They start to think of me as a brother or a really nice guy. I still don't know what attracts women.

 

How do I get them to think of me as a sexual being? No idea, but obviously I am doing something wrong.

 

 

3. I am asking guys I know who have no trouble attracting women, for help.

 

That doesn't work either, because I am not like them and they are utterly useless in identifying what I do wrong.

 

 

4. I watch what other guys do and try to look for patterns. What seems to work on women and what doesn't.

 

That doesn't work either, because I can see what works, but I don't understand why. Hence I fail to do the right thing in the right situation.

 

 

5. I ask female friends for help (assuming the guy even has female friends

 

I think that can help, but I wouldn't know.

 

 

6. Everything else has failed, so I'll give PUA a shot.

 

There are at least two ways to approach this:

 

6a) I know there is a lot of stuff that won't help me at all, so I have to be careful. I have to find the grain of truth amongst the heaps of questionable stuff they preach.

 

6b) I know that all women want jerks, and PUA becomes my new bible. It's time to exact my vengeance on all those b*tches who turned me down before and f*ck as many of them as I can. Then I will have the power.

 

"6a" are the guys who can benefit from PUA and "6b" are the guys that women should avoid. If "6b" keeps stuck in that mindset, he is beyond help.

 

Are there more "6a's" or more "6b's"? On the forums, it certainly looks like there are a lot more "6b's".

 

But maybe some of the "6b's" might eventually grow out of that mindset and turn into "6a's" who actually want to better themselves. I know, that seems doubtful. I certainly don't blame women if they are skeptic about the PUA concept as a whole. There is a lot that can go wrong.

 

 

What these guys are still lacking after having found some success in getting laid is that they still don't know how to relate to women in a way that fosters respect and moves toward something real.

 

That may or may not be the case. It depends on what you think comes first. I think that a guy needs to have the ability to get laid first. Whether or not he actually chooses to get laid is irrelevant.

 

I don't think there are many men who can't (can't, not those who don't want/need to) get laid, that at the same time have what it takes to get into a relationship with a woman.

 

That said, I don't think that getting laid is the sure-fire method to get the social and emotional competences that are needed for a relationship. But despite my own reluctance towards casual sex, I am sure that every men benefits from the process of talking to women. After all, even if they only try to get laid, they have to talk to women. What do women think, when do they respond positively or negatively?

[Trialbyfire]

If the goal is for a man to get laid and this acheives that goal what is so wrong with it?

So, let's pretend that I start dating men and telling them I'm single. Would this be an ethical way for me to get laid?

[Woggle]

So, let's pretend that I start dating men and telling them I'm single. Would this be an ethical way for me to get laid?

 

Most women would high five you and say you go girl so why should men not do it?

[Trialbyfire]

Most women would high five you and say you go girl so why should men not do it?

Okay, now you're just doing the misogynistic trolling routine. Not worth my while to rebutt this gross generalization of women, based on two women in your office.

[Stockalone]

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the company of many women, if it's done in an ethical fashion. Once you start getting into player routines of lying, lying by omission and getting laid by manipulation, that's when it's wrong.

 

I agree with you when we are talking about leading people on, lying about being faithful, being exclusive or about having genuine feelings for the women.

 

But I think that plenty of PUAs are after ONSs, there is IMO little deception there. I would go as far as saying it also applies to having casual sex after just a few dates if there have not been false promises. If you went on two or three dates with someone and have casual sex with that person there is probably not much deception going on either. Both parties want sex and obviously aren't too concerned about longterm compatibility.

 

 

If the goal is for a man to get laid and this acheives that goal what is so wrong with it?

 

It's wrong if you aren't being honest. Granted, you still achieve your goal, but you have nothing to be proud off.

 

It's like beating a guy that you previously had tasered in the back and then tied to a chair while he was unconscious. You'd still won the fight (if you even have the guts to call it that), but you are also a coward.

[Trialbyfire]

I agree with you when we are talking about leading people on, lying about being faithful, being exclusive or about having genuine feelings for the women.

 

But I think that plenty of PUAs are after ONSs, there is IMO little deception there. I would go as far as saying it also applies to having casual sex after just a few dates if there have not been false promises. If you went on two or three dates with someone and have casual sex with that person there is probably not much deception going on either. Both parties want sex and obviously aren't too concerned about longterm compatibility.

I'm sure there are ethical PUAs but most definitely, these manipulative tactics not only draw the benevolent, it also draws the underbelly of the dating world.

[Stockalone]

I'm sure there are ethical PUAs but most definitely, these manipulative tactics not only draw the benevolent, it also draws the underbelly of the dating world.

 

The benevolent, LOL. Of course not!

 

There are plenty of people that have bad intentions and will lie, cheat, and steal as long as it is in their best interest.

[Woggle]

Okay, now you're just doing the misogynistic trolling routine. Not worth my while to rebutt this gross generalization of women, based on two women in your office.

 

It's the truth. There are no ethics in the dating world and a man has to do what works. Women are playing men left and right so why shouldn't men do the same?

[Trialbyfire]

The benevolent, LOL. Of course not!

 

There are plenty of people that have bad intentions and will lie, cheat, and steal as long as it is in their best interest.

It's up to each one of us to live up to an ethical standard. But you must admit that any manipulative strategy, draws the unethical.

[Explorer]

It's up to each one of us to live up to an ethical standard. But you must admit that any manipulative strategy, draws the unethical.

 

I think it's much more gray than this vague conclusory.

 

If you develop strategies (Not lies) to attract a women, do you consider that unethical?

 

Let me give you a common scenarioo - You come across someone that you're interested in making friends (Only) with. In doing so, you laugh at non-funny things, be extra friendly and go out of your way to be helpful. Do you consider this manipulative?

[Trialbyfire]

Let me give you a common scenarioo - You come across someone that you're interested in making friends (Only) with. In doing so, you laugh at non-funny things, be extra friendly and go out of your way to be helpful. Do you consider this manipulative?

Actually, I don't change myself when attempting to befriend someone.

[Explorer]

Actually, I don't change myself when attempting to befriend someone.

 

What about selling something to someone? Have you never done that either?

[Trialbyfire]

What about selling something to someone? Have you never done that either?

Yes, I once worked for six months in retail, in an upscale clothing boutique. I ended up with a subset of return customers who came back because I was "refreshingly honest" and wouldn't buy from anyone else.

[Stockalone]

It's up to each one of us to live up to an ethical standard. But you must admit that any manipulative strategy, draws the unethical.

 

I don't disagree, but where does manipulation begin? Isn't dating itself inherently manipulative, not matter how honest you intend to be?

 

I agree with having our own ethical standard. I believe that answering questions honestly and correcting obvious misconceptions is fair and not manipulative. I don't know if that has always been enough for the women I have dated.

 

And there are plenty of people who have different ideas. At what point can I call them manipulative? Just look at the discussions in the threads about multi-dating.

 

Is multi-dating manipulative if it isn't disclosed? Is having sex with multiple people manipulative if there never was a talk about exclusivity?

[Trialbyfire]

I don't disagree, but where does manipulation begin? Isn't dating itself inherently manipulative, not matter how honest you intend to be?

In what way is dating manipulative if you're upfront about things?

 

I agree with having our own ethical standard. I believe that answering questions honestly and correcting obvious misconceptions is fair and not manipulative. I don't know if that has always been enough for the women I have dated.

If the women you've dated have imagined something about you, where you've not encouraged or created the inaccurate perception, then those are their issues, for not getting clarity.

 

And there are plenty of people who have different ideas. At what point can I call them manipulative? Just look at the discussions in the threads about multi-dating.

 

Is multi-dating manipulative if it isn't disclosed? Is having sex with multiple people manipulative if there never was a talk about exclusivity?

You know my stance on multi-dating. You state it upfront and in not doing so, it's manipulative.

 

As for having sex without the exclusivity discussion, the onus is on the person who cares about exclusivity, to discuss it, as long as the person who doesn't care, hasn't in some way led the other person on.

 

It's like guys who pretend to be a woman's friend, when he just wants to get into her pants. If the woman is clear she only sees him as a friend, the onus is on him to deal with it, when she doesn't end up dating him. By the same token, this guy is being manipulative, if he hasn't expressed interest in her, solely pretending to be her friend. I have no issues with guys who state they're interested but are okay to be friends. This is something different.

 

In essence, people should play to their own strengths, not prey on other peoples' weaknesses, especially just to get laid, when they know the other person is looking for a relationship.

[Explorer]

Yes, I once worked for six months in retail, in an upscale clothing boutique. I ended up with a subset of return customers who came back because I was "refreshingly honest" and wouldn't buy from anyone else.

 

IMO, the bolded word implies that you're trying to portray a certain perception ..i.e. don't think of me poorly as I worked in retail because it was upscale ...OR... I worked in upscale so I'm better than everyone else.

 

Either way you molded this sentence in hopes to deliver a certain interpretation as stating 'upscale' would not have otherwise been important to mention. Is this manipulative?

[Trialbyfire]

IMO, the bolded word implies that you're trying to portray a certain perception ..i.e. don't think of me poorly as I worked in retail because it was upscale ...OR... I worked in upscale so I'm better than everyone else.

 

Either way you molded this sentence in hopes to deliver a certain interpretation as stating 'upscale' would not have otherwise been important to mention. Is this manipulative?

I denoted upscale, since high pressure sales is one of the aspects of an upscale boutique. Conceptually, you're supposed to sell the highest dollar value item to the consumer, rather than attempt to deliver what they need.

 

So it's interesting how you interpreted my post.

[sally4sara]

In essence, people should play to their own strengths, not prey on other peoples' weaknesses, especially just to get laid, when they know the other person is looking for a relationship.

 

I agree. State what you want. You might even get it AND avoid drama. But I wouldn't even consider the term "prey on other peoples' weakness" to be accurate here. A person's standards isn't necessarily a weakness. If one person lies to manufacture the appearance of living up to another's standards in order to get what they want, it doesn't make the person getting lied to weak. They were just ripped off.

[A O]

So it's interesting how you interpreted my post.

Clutching at straws it looks to me. I like what you're saying...

 

.

[Explorer]

I denoted upscale, since high pressure sales is one of the aspects of an upscale boutique. Conceptually, you're supposed to sell the highest dollar value item to the consumer, rather than attempt to deliver what they need.

 

So it's interesting how you interpreted my post.

 

Why would you assume that I know anything about retail?

 

It's interesting what assumptions you draw with someone you know nothing about.

[Trialbyfire]

Why would you assume that I know anything about retail?

 

It's interesting what assumptions you draw with someone you know nothing about.

My apologies for assuming that people understood a little bit about retail sales. It's true that I thought this was common knowledge.

 

So anyways, continue on with your perspectives.

[Stockalone]

In what way is dating manipulative if you're upfront about things?

 

I am upfront, but how do I know about what kind of things I am supposed to be upfront? It seems that people have different ideas about that, what is important and what not.

 

 

If the women you've dated have imagined something about you, where you've not encouraged or created the inaccurate perception, then those are their issues, for not getting clarity.

 

For example, my first gf wasn't too happy that I had served and was a reservist. I hadn't mentioned it right away and she had never asked. I didn't think it would be an issue and she didn't know it would actually bother her. The guys she had dated previously were conscientious objectors, so that had never been an issue for her before.

 

In other instances, I tried to correct things if I thought that she (or later other women I dated) had gotten the wrong impression of me. Even if she didn't ask for clarification.

 

 

You know my stance on multi-dating. You state it upfront and in not doing so, it's manipulative.

 

As for having sex without the exclusivity discussion, the onus is on the person who cares about exclusivity, to discuss it, as long as the person who doesn't care, hasn't in some way led the other person on.

 

Actually, I don't understand that. Why would you say that not disclosing the multi-dating is manipulative and not disclosing that one is sleeping with other people is the problem of the person who wants to be exclusive?

 

That seems rather arbitrary to me. Shouldn't they both be considered to be the same thing? And I guess that is my whole point. We aren't mind readers, what are the things we need to volunteer and what are the things we only have to disclose when asked?

 

We can only follow our own moral compass here, but that moral compass obviously varies from person to person.

 

 

In essence, people should play to their own strengths, not prey on other peoples' weaknesses, especially just to get laid, when they know the other person is looking for a relationship.

 

I think playing to your strengths is okay, but I can see why some people might disagree.

 

Advertising your strengths when dating could be construed as manipulative because that means you downplay your weaknesses at the same time.

[meerkat stew]

I guess anyone who seeks to make themselves more attractive or interesting is manipulative.

 

The cosmetics industry has annual revenues of $19 billion.

 

Wonder what the annual revenues of the PUA industry are?