So, I was asked for an update..

[Fallen Angel]

He really DOES wish you were there to share those things with him - but by saying so, rather than making it happen, he is also taking that same fatalistic position you're taking in saying that, ultimately, it's probable that you'll get to a point of having had enough, and end it. He's saying that - while he'd love it to be that way, he acknowledges that it isn't. That he wishes things were different.

 

But wishing things were different is very different to making them different. and his wistful musings are an acknowledgment that the world he lives in is not the world he'd like to live in, but yet... that's what fate has dealt him. It's a passive stance. It's not the view of a man who, when unhappy about something, sets out to change it. (Unless, of course, he's still four and a half, emotionally, and believes that if you wish hard enough upon a star, your wish will come true....)

 

FA, I'm not questioning his love for you. But I am questioning his resolve, or his initiative, or his drive, or his passion. Yes - even his passion. The R you describe with him sounds like an old married couple. It does not sound like the kind of burning passion that fires a man to kill, or plunder, or ravage - or to leave all that he holds dear for someone that he HAS to have. And the fact that he's now saying he needs you - oy vey, I'd run a mile, TBH! Sorry, but he sounds dependent, conflict-avoiding, clingy... Mr Nice Guy whose wife keeps his balls in a jar on her desk. From what you describe, it's simply not in his nature to upset the applecart in the way it's going to take to bring about changes on the kind of scale you'd need him to make. Those very things that you love about him might ultimately be the weight that pulls your R beneath the water and slowly suffocates it.

 

I do hope not... but there doesn't seem much evidence to support him moving in the direction you'd want....

 

 

(((((hugs)))))

 

I agree with some of what you say. And while our relationship can at times seem very much "old married couple" (even I have described it as such), our moments of passion are beyond any passion I have ever experienced before.

 

And when he says that he needs me, I do not hear it as a weak kind of need, dependant on me kind of need, but a powerful passionate kind of need. As in "I need you, my love, I never felt I needed anyone before but I need you, I feel as though some big part of me is gone when we are apart.. etc etc" (those are not his exact words, but that kind of thing in general...) But while I have heard I love, I miss you and I want you for a very long time, he has never before said he needed me. It is something that I have said to him in the past, and never said again because it seemed to make him uncomfortable, so I was shocked to hear him say it... perhaps it means nothing..

 

But he is conflict avoidant, and he harbours this old school belief that he can not be a great father if he is living somewhere away from his child. His wife does not keep his balls in a jar per se, but I do get the feeling that he just 'goes with the flow' to keep the peace at home. An example of this is that one of his daughters moved back home some time ago, after her own marriage ended because her husband was cheating on her. (That is one thing I have never been able to understand about him, his double standard about how furious he was that his son-in-law cheated on his daughter.. *shakes head from the headache his duplicity of thought causes me*)

 

He was happy to help her and his grandchild, but it has been some time now, and he thinks she has had ample time to get her self together and be back on the road to self-suffciency.. apparently his wife does not agree. But rather than start a big fight (though I have heard about a few small arguments about it) he just lets it go, and withdraws further from the 'family' as a unit, because of his anger at his daughter for her 'invasions' in his privacy (he gets very upset when her presence makes his time with me on the phone or online more difficult to achieve) and his wife's refusal to even discuss setting some sort of boundary to the length of time his daughter can stay and not make any effort to be a 'grown up' again.

 

I guess it may turn out that I am a fool, but I really do believe him that the reason he is there is his youngest child. He tells me that he can not imagine a future without me, and i have told him that I will not be his mistress for a lifetime. perhaps I will wait til his child is grown, perhaps I can not/will not.. but he knows that in order to have me 'forever' which is what he claims to want, that he will have to make a move eventually. Only time can tell...

[NoIDidn't]

Like I said in another thread, the more you reveal about him the worse things look for you concerning him. I hope my opinion doesn't cause you to stop posting in fear of my opinion or that of others, but its the truth.

 

I agree with some of what you say. And while our relationship can at times seem very much "old married couple" (even I have described it as such), our moments of passion are beyond any passion I have ever experienced before.

 

And when he says that he needs me, I do not hear it as a weak kind of need, dependant on me kind of need, but a powerful passionate kind of need. As in "I need you, my love, I never felt I needed anyone before but I need you, I feel as though some big part of me is gone when we are apart.. etc etc" (those are not his exact words, but that kind of thing in general...) But while I have heard I love, I miss you and I want you for a very long time, he has never before said he needed me. It is something that I have said to him in the past, and never said again because it seemed to make him uncomfortable, so I was shocked to hear him say it... perhaps it means nothing..

 

This (below) conflicts so much with other things you say he's said and done:

 

But he is conflict avoidant, and he harbours this old school belief that he can not be a great father if he is living somewhere away from his child. His wife does not keep his balls in a jar per se, but I do get the feeling that he just 'goes with the flow' to keep the peace at home. An example of this is that one of his daughters moved back home some time ago, after her own marriage ended because her husband was cheating on her. (That is one thing I have never been able to understand about him, his double standard about how furious he was that his son-in-law cheated on his daughter.. *shakes head from the headache his duplicity of thought causes me*)

 

He's conflict avoidant, but he puts his foot down and tells his W that he will basically do whatever he wants to do? That isn't going with the flow type behavior. That is in your face defiance and disrespect. I have a name for him, and its not conflict-avoidant, its deceitful. Conflict avoiders don't create conflicts to run from. This man does.

 

He was happy to help her and his grandchild, but it has been some time now, and he thinks she has had ample time to get her self together and be back on the road to self-suffciency.. apparently his wife does not agree. But rather than start a big fight (though I have heard about a few small arguments about it) he just lets it go, and withdraws further from the 'family' as a unit, because of his anger at his daughter for her 'invasions' in his privacy (he gets very upset when her presence makes his time with me on the phone or online more difficult to achieve) and his wife's refusal to even discuss setting some sort of boundary to the length of time his daughter can stay and not make any effort to be a 'grown up' again.

 

This made me chuckle. He wants his daughter to leave so she won't discover his affair. LOL. No wonder you get headaches dealing with his duplicity. But again, this isn't due to some sort of conflict avoiding. Its because he doesn't want to be found out again, and least of all explain it to his daughter. And, yes, this is my opinion of his actions.

 

I guess it may turn out that I am a fool, but I really do believe him that the reason he is there is his youngest child. He tells me that he can not imagine a future without me, and i have told him that I will not be his mistress for a lifetime. perhaps I will wait til his child is grown, perhaps I can not/will not.. but he knows that in order to have me 'forever' which is what he claims to want, that he will have to make a move eventually. Only time can tell...

 

Stop calling yourself names. It may well be that in your denial of what is right in front of you, that you are being foolish. But I wouldn't call you a fool. There are so many red flags here, its not even funny.

 

I hope you decide to look out for yourself. He's not doing it, at all. He won't even truly look after his own family. He's concerned about his child living away from him, but he spends the night with you knowing that his child is safely with his W. Isn't he away from his child in that instance?What would be any different if he got divorced? The child would be safely with his then, ex-W. Do you not see THIS duplicity?

 

So many red flags. Too many to point out.

 

The life is slowly being sapped out of you too.

[Fallen Angel]

Oxford,

 

I have not been involved romantically with him for five years, yet.... but we have been friends for over 11 years now. Romantically it was over a year EA only, and it has been about 2 years or so EA and PA. I lose track of when things went from friendship to EA to full blown love affair. Needless to say though, it has been a long time...

 

As to his children, yes, some of his children are grown and have children of their own. But he still has one that is 15 at home. And while that is an age that is capable of understanding divorce, it also is at an age where divorce is often very hard for the child to cope with. I think that the younger the child, the easier it is for them to adjust to the new relationships formed between themselves and their parents, and their parents with each other, and their parents with new partners, than when they are older, and have been basically lied to about the 'stability' of their parents marriage. I do think though that especially older children are not really fooled by the show parents put on about the 'ahppiness' in the marriage.

 

UGH, I don't know, it is all so hard.

 

But the point is, he feels it is his duty to be a father in the home with his child. I respect that, in this day and age when so many men are willing to walk away from their children and out of their lives for good.

 

He does sleep on the couch. I know that every time I have said this I get the "that is what he tells you" comments, but, I know it to be true. I know it because if I call him in the middle of the night, he will take my call, and lay there sleepily telling me that he loves and misses me.. something I can not imagine the boldest of men doing laying in bed next to his wife.

 

As to if they ever have sex anymore.. I know that they did, but the truth is I do not know when the last time they had sex was.. he once told me that his wife wanted sex, and she was angry with him because he could not 'perform' for her because he felt as though he was cheating on me... still, i was hurt by the thought that he was even trying, and told him that if it happened again, I did not want to hear about it. He has not told me again of their sex life(that was about a year ago or more), except occasionally if I complain that it has been too long since I have had sexand am in need of some loving, he will say something like "Well, baby, I know.. it has been just as long for me..." indicating that he has not had sex with his wife. *shrug* If he is, I really would rather not know. *sad face*

 

I am sorry for you that you are hurting so much. I almost wish we could trade places as I think FOR ME, the distance between me and My MM would help me in working through and beyond our relationship. For me, I see him often, he often stays several nights per week with me, and our close physical contact only serves to strengthen my bond with him, to him. *sigh* Maybe I should run away to England...

[Fallen Angel]

NID,

 

He is definately a study in contradiction. Sometimes i guess I just don't explain things clearly, because no one ever seems to get what I am saying.. or like I said before we are viewing it all from such different angles that it is like both of us looking at a picture and you see the young lovers in this picture with a lifetime ahead.. and I see the old lovers who have shared a lifetime.. same picture, two different views.. neither necessarily wrong...

 

If you knew him...

[NoIDidn't]

NID,

 

He is definately a study in contradiction. Sometimes i guess I just don't explain things clearly, because no one ever seems to get what I am saying.. or like I said before we are viewing it all from such different angles that it is like both of us looking at a picture and you see the young lovers in this picture with a lifetime ahead.. and I see the old lovers who have shared a lifetime.. same picture, two different views.. neither necessarily wrong...

 

We are seeing different things. I am not in a R with him, so I see no need to see everything he does in a positive light. The things you mention aren't just conflicting, they are disturbing. And this is not the "BS" view, as it is so commonly called. Even OWoman sees how wishy-washy he is.

 

I can't reconcile his staying the night with you away from his child, while claiming to you that he is staying for that child out of fear of where his child will be. I can't. And I am sure that you can't either. This is really beyond mere conflict avoidance.

 

If you knew him...

 

Knowing him likely wouldn't change my view, unless you have just painted a picture of him that's completely inaccurate. I have had a love very similar to him once, I left him for good when I realized that he had things exactly the way HE wanted them and everything told to me was to keep it that way.

 

I want you to be in a happy, healthy relationship. Would you describe your affair with him as healthy? From where I sit, he is in two unhealthy relationships. And HE is the common denominator in both of them.

[Fallen Angel]

I can't reconcile his staying the night with you away from his child' date=' [b']while claiming to you that he is staying for that child out of fear of where his child will be[/b]. I can't. And I am sure that you can't either. This is really beyond mere conflict avoidance.

 

I do not know where that comment is coming from... I think perhaps you have some part of my story confused with someone else's. I have never made any claim that he fears for his child at all. I have said only that he wants to be totally involved in his child's life, not an every other weekend father.

[NoIDidn't]

I do not know where that comment is coming from... I think perhaps you have some part of my story confused with someone else's. I have never made any claim that he fears for his child at all. I have said only that he wants to be totally involved in his child's life, not an every other weekend father.

 

 

For some reason the post that I got it from didn't carry over, but you are right, you didn't say those exact words. Yet, the gist of my comment remains the same. He already is not with his child all the time. What he is ultimately doing keeps him away from his child as much as he claims to want to be there. He doesn't take the child with him when he is hidden away with you, so I find his conflict in the issue to be self-inflicted. He appears to be a dedicated father while not at all acting like one.

 

I'm sorry if it seems that I am dogging him. I don't think that I am. I just don't think even he sees how his absences from his home are just that. I don't see how any married man can say they don't want to be a weekend dad, when they already are in many ways.

[fooled once]

*slap, slap, slap* OUCH!

 

You know I am not 'happy', not the way I want to be.. You know I want to be the ONLY, not the OTHER. But as long as he feels obligated, and as long as she 'turns a blind eye' and as long as I 'wait it out' you are right, it will not change. *sigh* Sometime, I don't know when, something will have to give. I foresee it being me, giving up.

 

 

 

Honey, I KNOW you aren't happy, but you are accepting it. Each day you let it go on, you accept it. Each day that you let it go on, you tell him subconsciously that you accept it. *hug*

 

I KNOW you aren't content to share him. I know you aren't happy with sharing him. I can see it in your posts, when you 'boast' about how much time you two spend on the phone; almost as if you are trying to justify it to me/you that he loves you because he talks to you so much.

 

He can talk to you once a week and still love you to the depths of his being.

 

But it still doesn't mean he is going to change the situation. He is "content" with how things are. You aren't rocking the boat, you aren't asking for more, you aren't issuing ultimateums.

 

But, YOU aren't happy and if he loves you like I think he does, he will WANT you happy ~ either WITH him or without him. HE seriously needs to freaking MAN UP and either be with YOU and only YOU or let you go so you can find love.

 

You KNOW how much I care about you -- you know!!

[fooled once]

Sweetie, I agree with NiD

 

I think it is crap he is saying he wants to be a 'fulltime' dad to his 15 year old (and as you must know, the last thing 15 year old girls want is to hang out with their father )yet he spends so much time WITH you and ON THE PHONE with you; thereby NOT being with his teenager daughter.

 

Quite frankly, he probably would have a BETTER relationship with her by being an e/o/w father because then he would NEED to focus on her and NOT be at your house or NOT be on the phone/online with you.

 

You keep telling me this is not the life you want; yet you are thinking of doing at least 3 more years until his youngest is 18? What if she doesn't move out at 18? What if she goes to a community college and lives at home? What if she doesn't move out until she gets married at ... maybe 22?

 

 

I just want you happy, that's all.

[Fallen Angel]

Sweetie, I agree with NiD

 

I think it is crap he is saying he wants to be a 'fulltime' dad to his 15 year old (and as you must know, the last thing 15 year old girls want is to hang out with their father )yet he spends so much time WITH you and ON THE PHONE with you; thereby NOT being with his teenager daughter.

 

Quite frankly, he probably would have a BETTER relationship with her by being an e/o/w father because then he would NEED to focus on her and NOT be at your house or NOT be on the phone/online with you.

 

You keep telling me this is not the life you want; yet you are thinking of doing at least 3 more years until his youngest is 18? What if she doesn't move out at 18? What if she goes to a community college and lives at home? What if she doesn't move out until she gets married at ... maybe 22?

 

 

I just want you happy, that's all.

 

Just to clarify, because I have never once given a sex to his child, only refered to his child as his child, it is a son, not a daughter. A son that he is very close with and his only son.

 

He spent a long time away from his children when they were younger because of his military career, and while I understand that he does spend a large amount of his time with me, and not with his son, he also spends a lot of time with his son, BECAUSE he is in the home. He feels as though he missed out on a lot because he missed so many firsts, and he doesn't want to give up the time with him that he has now. I don't understand why that is so hard for people to believe.

 

He and his son are very close, and above all, his son is the one person in his family that he most often says he wishes could know me. And yes, I get that he gives up some of his time with his son to be with me, but he also gives up some of his time with me to be with his son. It is this that tears at him, he wants it both ways and can't figure out how to do it. It is easy for you all to sit in judgement of him and say that he should divorce and "focus" on his child every other weekend, but you would not be so quick to give up your time with your children and have your time with them scheduled like that.

 

When I originally left my husband, I went to stay with my best girl friend two blocks away, I stayed with her directly after leaving work, unable to face one more night of abuse from my now ex-H. I left on a friday, and planned on getting an apartment over the weekend and moving my children and myself in on monday. When I called my then H and told him my plan, he informed me that i would not be taking my children with me. The way the law worked in our state, who ever had the children physically, was considered the custodial parent until the courts had made a decision to the contrary. And HE had the children physically.

 

He spent six months allowing me to see my children one, or two at a time. Knowing that i could never split my children apart, by allowing me to only take one or two of them at a time, assured that I would return them to him. The only pain that I can compare to that time, was the death of my daughter. I was devestated. I was at his mercy. I even tried to convince myself that it was best for my children to be with him... the mind does amazing things in order to maintain some semblance of sanity. I finally managed to get all three of my kids by asking to have my daughter for her birthday. When I went to pick her up, my youngest cried because she wanted to be with me for the night also. My ex relented, and I headed home with my two girls. My son had not come out to kiss me, which was odd, so i asked my girls where he was. he was spending the night with a friend. I got him from his friends house, and took my children to a local motel for safety while we made plans to get away. I took my children and ran. (It was my legal right, I verified it with the local police department, who in fact offered to drive us to the bus depot.) Why would I do all this? Why would I not be glad to spend the rest of their childhood having only weekend visits? because I love my children beyond all else. I am sure that none of you who are parents doubt that, because you KNOW what that feels like, so why is it so easy for you to expect a man to feel less?

[sugarmomma]

But while I have heard I love, I miss you and I want you for a very long time, he has never before said he needed me. ..

 

 

FA, girlfriend, they are just WORDS, not ACTIONS. His actions have shown that he is not going anywhere and pretty much uses you as his armchair psychologist. I would shut my xmm down whenever he tried to do that since personally I think its cruel. Sort of like twisting the knife already in your heart.

 

Women have to stop being so easily swayed and manipulated by words.

 

My heart breaks reading this post and hoping that you will take charge of your life since time is the most valuable resource we have on this earth.

 

You may have just made a bad investment in the hopes that one day you will get a ROI.

 

Its been some years and he hasn't made a move?

 

He won't and why would he? Its not NECESSARY.

Edited January 15, 2010 by sugarmomma

[sugarmomma]

When I originally left my husband, I went to stay with my best girl friend two blocks away, I stayed with her directly after leaving work, unable to face one more night of abuse from my now ex-H.

 

The only pain that I can compare to that time, was the death of my daughter. I was devestated.

 

 

Sorry for posting a 2nd time. I just read this one and wanted to respond. FA, these are two very traumatic events to take place in ones life and I cannot imagine what its like to lose a child and you have my deepest sympathy.

 

But I do know what its like to be abused and coming out of that, someone proclaiming to love you can seem like heaven right on earth even if it is a lie. Abused women are accustomed to believing lies. Many abused women come out of r with their self worth so low that they have no idea of what they deserve. Most don't believe they deserve to be happy.

 

You must BELIEVE that you deserve to be happy.

[OWoman]

As to his children, yes, some of his children are grown and have children of their own. But he still has one that is 15 at home. And while that is an age that is capable of understanding divorce, it also is at an age where divorce is often very hard for the child to cope with. I think that the younger the child, the easier it is for them to adjust to the new relationships formed between themselves and their parents, and their parents with each other, and their parents with new partners, than when they are older, and have been basically lied to about the 'stability' of their parents marriage.

 

FA, my H's son was 15 when they split. He's blossomed since. This was a kid who was "troubled" - the reason my H had taken his xW back during a previous split. Yet, since the split he's changed - he's doing brilliantly at school, has loads of friends, is happy and outgoing and has even become romantically involved himself. The D was the best thing that happened to him. He and my H became really close as a result of it in all kinds of ways they'd never been before (even though my H had been the primary parent). My H had also feared what impact leaving might have on the kids, because of the previous split and because of his own parents' D, but none of that happened. He sees now how foolish it was to worry - and given how well his kids and mine get on, and the strong bonds they've formed as step-siblings, he knows it was the right move for them, as well as for him.

 

If your MM was really worried about his son, and the impact of a split on him, he'd be speaking to him about it and taking him to family counselling. If he really is sleeping on the couch, then he's not fooling a 15yr old about the state of his M! More likely, the 15yr old lives in perpetual terror of what might happen next, given this state of paralysis that no one wants to speak about, too afraid to name, it must be really really terrifying...

[pureinheart]

When I originally left my husband, I went to stay with my best girl friend two blocks away, I stayed with her directly after leaving work, unable to face one more night of abuse from my now ex-H. I left on a friday, and planned on getting an apartment over the weekend and moving my children and myself in on monday. When I called my then H and told him my plan, he informed me that i would not be taking my children with me. The way the law worked in our state, who ever had the children physically, was considered the custodial parent until the courts had made a decision to the contrary. And HE had the children physically.

 

He spent six months allowing me to see my children one, or two at a time. Knowing that i could never split my children apart, by allowing me to only take one or two of them at a time, assured that I would return them to him. The only pain that I can compare to that time, was the death of my daughter. I was devestated. I was at his mercy. I even tried to convince myself that it was best for my children to be with him... the mind does amazing things in order to maintain some semblance of sanity. I finally managed to get all three of my kids by asking to have my daughter for her birthday. When I went to pick her up, my youngest cried because she wanted to be with me for the night also. My ex relented, and I headed home with my two girls. My son had not come out to kiss me, which was odd, so i asked my girls where he was. he was spending the night with a friend. I got him from his friends house, and took my children to a local motel for safety while we made plans to get away. I took my children and ran. (It was my legal right, I verified it with the local police department, who in fact offered to drive us to the bus depot.) Why would I do all this? Why would I not be glad to spend the rest of their childhood having only weekend visits? because I love my children beyond all else. I am sure that none of you who are parents doubt that, because you KNOW what that feels like, so why is it so easy for you to expect a man to feel less?

 

I am so sorry you went through all of what you have...you have been traumatized beyond comprehension....and your exH...well I will keep my mouth shut...

 

After leaving my sons father he never came to pick him up when he was supposed to, so I bitched because it was hard to see my kid so hurt when his dad would not show...so when he did decide to pick him up his dad talked him into taking him to a different state with different laws....so me and my dad tracked him down and did a "stake out" to try to get him back but we failed.

 

My mom hired lawyers, PI's everything and my ex got scared and gave my son back.

 

All I can say is that it was hell during this time....I knew my ex would not harm my son, it was the fact that he would do this in the first place...you know???? What was he going to do next???? Oh man....that was horrible for me so I do understand.

 

And once again, I am so sorry.....

[pureinheart]

If your MM was really worried about his son, and the impact of a split on him, he'd be speaking to him about it and taking him to family counselling. If he really is sleeping on the couch, then he's not fooling a 15yr old about the state of his M! More likely, the 15yr old lives in perpetual terror of what might happen next, given this state of paralysis that no one wants to speak about, too afraid to name, it must be really really terrifying...

 

OW, how true this rings....I can guarantee his son knows, AND HAS KNOWN for quite sometime. I realise it might not be a secret now though.

 

I love teenagers, and they love me, call me mom the whole enchillada, you know...I'm priddy hard core, yet cool too...my kids friends used to tell me all kinds of stuff, and I was shocked because all of this stuff were well kept "secrets".

 

My kids tell me stuff...ya mom I knew about...and they were telling me stuff about things "hidden well" starting at 4 yrs of age.

 

My little guys (grandkids) 5 and 6 tell me stuff and have been telling me stuff since they were 3 and 4.

 

Kids know, I don't know how, but they do...they are there lurking possibly when we do not realise it, they sense attitudes ect....fact is, is they know.

 

Every once in awhile (and the kids hated this) I would sense something out of wack, not right, a slight variance in their behavior and would sit them down to "talk", for a better term, get into their heads and find out what is going on, how they are thinking and such.

 

In these talks I would uncover many things...let's just put it this way, they knew what was going on with me, the neighbors, the cat, the dog, the fish....well I think I've driven this point home.

 

I realised early on that it is pointless to "hide" anything from my kids...which in turn might have led to the very close relationship I have with both of them.

 

I am not sure FA if this is the same, although in losing 2 grandkids it about killed me, although my heart goes out to you....actually I am just getting to a place to slightly deal with this, so I just want you to know I am thinking about you, and hoping for all good things to come your way. I am not sure where you are at spiritually, although I know God has got your back no matter what...I am careful to mention God as I do not want to offend anyone by saying either way concerning their R if any with Him. It is just my belief and I always mean good things when I bring Him up in this way...k...

Edited January 15, 2010 by pureinheart

[NoIDidn't]

FA, my H's son was 15 when they split. He's blossomed since. This was a kid who was "troubled" - the reason my H had taken his xW back during a previous split. Yet, since the split he's changed - he's doing brilliantly at school, has loads of friends, is happy and outgoing and has even become romantically involved himself. The D was the best thing that happened to him. He and my H became really close as a result of it in all kinds of ways they'd never been before (even though my H had been the primary parent). My H had also feared what impact leaving might have on the kids, because of the previous split and because of his own parents' D, but none of that happened. He sees now how foolish it was to worry - and given how well his kids and mine get on, and the strong bonds they've formed as step-siblings, he knows it was the right move for them, as well as for him.

 

If your MM was really worried about his son, and the impact of a split on him, he'd be speaking to him about it and taking him to family counselling. If he really is sleeping on the couch, then he's not fooling a 15yr old about the state of his M! More likely, the 15yr old lives in perpetual terror of what might happen next, given this state of paralysis that no one wants to speak about, too afraid to name, it must be really really terrifying...

 

This! I agree, OWoman. How many times do the adults here post that they WISHED their parents would have divorced when they were younger?! They knew it, they saw it. They weren't fooled.

 

I am not saying that I know how his child will fare should he leave, but I can't imagine that being any worse than what he is currently living through. He can't walk up on his father on the telephone right now! His father gets mad at his older sister for doing it, so I can only imagine what happens with a minor does it.

 

It seems your MM is convinced that he must stay married to be there for his son. I disagree. Being a "weekend" dad is not limited to weekends and may allow him and his son to forge a relationship independent of his mother/wife and their marriage.

[GreenEyedLady]

FA,

 

This becomes a real R when you really SEE WHO HE IS, and love him anyways.

 

Right now you're making excuses for him. You don't need to. See who he is. If you were reading this about someone else's MM, what would you think?

 

I really think that he's using your experience against you, so you won't leave him. He plays the "son" card, you back down. I think that's very manipulative. But you have to start to see it too.

 

Accept him for who he is, don't paint him as a model father or martyr. Men who cheat are neither. They have poor communication skills and usually a sense of entitlement. If you start addressing that, perhaps he will start to change.

 

GEL

[silktricks]

One more...

 

In most states (I assume you are in the US, though you may not be, of course), I believe that over a certain age (but certainly by age 15), the child gets to choose which parent to live with. If they are as close as your MM says, would his son not choose to live with him? In which case, of course, he could have the best of both worlds as he desires.

 

Whatever HE chooses, you need to keep in mind that your life is also made up of your choices. None of us here want to see you unhappy year after year. Sometime love is enough, but if you're unhappy, than maybe it's not enough, not really.

 

(((hugs)))

[pureinheart]

One more...

 

In most states (I assume you are in the US, though you may not be, of course), I believe that over a certain age (but certainly by age 15), the child gets to choose which parent to live with. If they are as close as your MM says, would his son not choose to live with him? In which case, of course, he could have the best of both worlds as he desires.

 

Whatever HE chooses, you need to keep in mind that your life is also made up of your choices. None of us here want to see you unhappy year after year. Sometime love is enough, but if you're unhappy, than maybe it's not enough, not really.

 

(((hugs)))

 

Yes this is true, I think it is quite young where I live

[NoIDidn't]

FA,

 

This becomes a real R when you really SEE WHO HE IS, and love him anyways.

 

Right now you're making excuses for him. You don't need to. See who he is. If you were reading this about someone else's MM, what would you think?

 

I really think that he's using your experience against you, so you won't leave him. He plays the "son" card, you back down. I think that's very manipulative. But you have to start to see it too.

 

Accept him for who he is, don't paint him as a model father or martyr. Men who cheat are neither. They have poor communication skills and usually a sense of entitlement. If you start addressing that, perhaps he will start to change.

 

GEL

 

So eloquently put! This is pretty much what I am thinking while not always saying it.

 

No one is asking for you to make excuses for him FA, just to see him for what he is. To see the affair for what it is. And to make rational, rather than emotional only, decisions from that position.

[fooled once]

FA

 

((hug))

 

I too see you making excuses for him.

 

My H has a son too. His son was 12 when he and the mom divorced. My H also has a daughter who was 4 at the time of divorce.

 

My stepson (SS) went to live with his father and my stepdaughter (SD) went to live with her mom.

 

My SS lived with his father until he was 16. THEY were very close. Then my SS chose to go live with his mom, as she had no rules and dad did

 

But that didn't stop them from being close.

 

You have repeatedly posted about how much MM is on the phone with you, on line with you, at your house so it only shows us how he isn't spending time with his son. Think about it -- if they were as close as you claim they are, he would be choosing to spend these last years with him instead of spending so much time with you. I am not saying spending time with you is bad; I don't mean that at all. But all the hours each day he is on the phone/online with you, all the overnights each week with you .... if it REALLY was about his son -- why isn't he at home with him? Why isn't he doing things with him instead of on the phone with you/on the computer with you?

 

Heck, if he DID leave, he WOULD get to spend GOOD time with YOU AND HIS son and YOU would get to meet his son.

 

I also tend to believe the son knows something is up -- dad gone several nights a week, dad on the phone all the time/on the computer all the time.

 

Kids aren't stupid -- they know when their parents marriage sucks. IF it is as bad at home as he claims it is, his kids see it and I bet they wish their parents would OWN up to it and do something about the tension and stress they are forced to live in.

[White Flower]

_____________________________________________________________

 

I am curious though, if someone would care to share their thoughts..

 

Lately he has been telling me a lot more about his family life... what I mean by that is.. he tells me more about what his 'still at home' child is doing at school/extracurricular activities. He talked to me about his Christmas.. (the toys I picked for his grandchildren were a huge hit, he wanted to make sure I knew that).. he told me about a silly little argument between he and his W (something he usually doesn't do, but he was very angry about it, disproportionately so, I thought), he told me about going to his grandchild's birthday party.. how he didn't want to be there (not because of his grandchild, but because the "rest" of the family was there).

 

I do not ask about things like that. And until the past couple of months, there was always very general information, but lately.. well, he just keeps sharing more and more, and he keeps saying things like.. "I wish (my child) could meet you, (they) would adore you as much as I do." or "I wish you could have been there with me (on Christmas Morning) so that you could see the look on (his grandchild's) face when they opened..."

 

It almost makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't know how to respond to comments like that. He even recently said that he wanted to take me to his house, so I could see his 'man-room' as he recently painted it. Obviously, that is not an option, so he takes pictures, of the kid, grandkids, house etc, and shows them to me.

 

I love that he wants to share these things with me, but it hurts, to know that I am not REALLY sharing those things with him.. does that make sense?

 

I am just wondering why he would say and do things like that? Any insights from the MM's in the group?

I heard all about family life from the very beginning. In fact, I had become so engrossed in it that when he left for a two week vacation I would miss hearing about the inlaws as if I'd missed two weeks of my favorite soap opera (I don't really watch soaps). I can't tell you the number of hours gone by over the years that he spent talking about his life. Not saying it's right or wrong, but that was our 'normal'.

 

Him talking about the argument with his W IS indicative, IMO, of YOU making his M better. He was able to rant to you, get it out of his system, and move on to greener pastures at home. That is my guess and it's not fair to you.

 

I have heard all the, 'I wish my kids could meet you, they'd love you!'s, etc., but it's never going to happen. These guys really do live in a fantasy world somewhere between their reality and dream reality. We tend to call it compartmentalization on their part but sometimes I think it is deeper than that.

 

Did you ever see the movie, Dad, with Ted Danson and Jack Lemon? In the movie, Lemon loses sense of reality in his old age and he calls his W played by Olymia Dukakis, by another name. Instead of raising 2 kids he now believes he has 5 kids. After a visit to the doctor, it turns out a very unhappy Lemon conjured up this dream family many years prior as a coping mechanism. In his mind for years his W had a different name, behaved differently, and he had more kids because that would have made him happier. A brain disorder made this fantasy of Lemon's become real to him in old age.

 

I think many MM do this. They canot fuse their dream reality with their real reality so instead they share their thoughts and dreams with us, the OW. They know the difference between these two realities. I guess WE are what fuses those realities when we listen to them and love them. Just my guess.

 

No, you are not really sharing those things with him and it makes total sense that it hurts because you love him--THAT is your reality.

 

I did visit MM's house. He wanted me to see where he looks at the sunset when he calls me, improvements he made on his house, etc. Funny, I was only there twice but I remember every detail as if I lived there. I felt very uncomfortable there, though, because I wouldn't have wanted that done to me (OW in my house) so I won't go anymore.

 

I know I will get flamed for that if any BWs read it so I'll explain that my exH had an OW. I wouldn't have wanted him bringing her to my house even though I knew he had deep feelings for her. I can accept that. We grew apart and he found somebody. I didn't like it then but I understand it now. So, yes I can be with someone else's H for many reasons but I can't be with him in her house.

 

I hope this relates in some way.

[Fallen Angel]

I did visit MM's house. He wanted me to see where he looks at the sunset when he calls me, improvements he made on his house, etc. Funny, I was only there twice but I remember every detail as if I lived there. I felt very uncomfortable there, though, because I wouldn't have wanted that done to me (OW in my house) so I won't go anymore.

 

I know I will get flamed for that if any BWs read it so I'll explain that my exH had an OW. I wouldn't have wanted him bringing her to my house even though I knew he had deep feelings for her. I can accept that. We grew apart and he found somebody. I didn't like it then but I understand it now. So, yes I can be with someone else's H for many reasons but I can't be with him in her house.

 

The times he has said something about wanting me to go to his house, I have let him know that it is something I would not be comfortable doing, even though I think he was just wishing (living his fantasy) outloud, not that he really ever intends to do it.

[awkward]

I don't want to come across as mean or make you think I am being too hard on you so I am choosing my words carefully.

 

If you want to be with MM in a relationship, then be with him. Yes you will have times when you want more or when you just want to vent, but for the most part this relationship appears to be working for you. You are semi-happy and in love. I am not going to tell you leave MM. I will tell you that he probably won't ever leave basing my opinion on his actions in your relationship. But then again maybe he will leave. Maybe after he leaves he will decide to marry you. There are so many variables here.

 

But *and here comes the carefully chosen words*, IMO your children should not have a relationship with your MM. It sounds like they have been through a lot. You also sound like a good mom. But after reading about how everything went down with your ex I wonder if you realize how important it is to protect their hearts. Once he is divorced and you ascertain he is there for the long haul, then you could decide if it is time for your children to be around him.

 

It's one thing to let him yank your chain but it's another when your children are involved. He has no problem letting you know that his son's general well-being comes before the affair. You should reciprocate.

 

OK so I know my post is judgmental. Sorry for that as I usually try to avoid judging altogether. I know you love your kids and just want you to consider how your relationship with MM effects them. In another thread you said that MM was helping one of your kids with homework and playing with the other. I don't know why, but that just stuck with me. I hope that kind of stuff still isn't going on. I hope his overnights with you are not noticed by them. Currently, he is an unavailable man.

[Fallen Angel]

I don't want to come across as mean or make you think I am being too hard on you so I am choosing my words carefully.

 

If you want to be with MM in a relationship, then be with him. Yes you will have times when you want more or when you just want to vent, but for the most part this relationship appears to be working for you. You are semi-happy and in love. I am not going to tell you leave MM. I will tell you that he probably won't ever leave basing my opinion on his actions in your relationship. But then again maybe he will leave. Maybe after he leaves he will decide to marry you. There are so many variables here.

 

But *and here comes the carefully chosen words*, IMO your children should not have a relationship with your MM. It sounds like they have been through a lot. You also sound like a good mom. But after reading about how everything went down with your ex I wonder if you realize how important it is to protect their hearts. Once he is divorced and you ascertain he is there for the long haul, then you could decide if it is time for your children to be around him.

 

It's one thing to let him yank your chain but it's another when your children are involved. He has no problem letting you know that his son's general well-being comes before the affair. You should reciprocate.

 

OK so I know my post is judgmental. Sorry for that as I usually try to avoid judging altogether. I know you love your kids and just want you to consider how your relationship with MM effects them. In another thread you said that MM was helping one of your kids with homework and playing with the other. I don't know why, but that just stuck with me. I hope that kind of stuff still isn't going on. I hope his overnights with you are not noticed by them. Currently, he is an unavailable man.

 

My children love My MM and he loves My children. I do not think I am doing harm to my children by allowing them to love and be loved by a man, who would never let them see him drunk, would never tell my children that they are mistakes, that they are stupid, that they are worthless. He DOES help them with homework sometimes, he DOES tell them he will do things (he promised my daughter some sharks teeth for a speech she was giving, and he made the hour and a half drive, just to drop them off to her, and had to turn around and drive for four hours back in the opposite direction to go to work.) and he actuallu follows through with what he says he will do, he DOES sit and play games with us.. dominos, yahtzee, uno.. whatever. He DOES invite the kids to come into my room so we cn all kick back and watch a movie together.

 

They see him treat me lovingly. They see him speak softly to me. They see him help me with the dishes, cooking dinner, folding clothes. They see him touch me gently. They see him hold my hand. They see him NEVER cuss in their presence, and say please and thank you.. always. They see him speak to me respectfully, even when we disagree. They see him make me smile and laugh.

 

They have seen more from him, about how a man should treat children he cares about, and how a man should treat a woman he loves, than they saw in 15 years of me being with their father.

 

They know he is "just mommy's boyfriend" and they are old enough to understand that it may not be permanent, but why would I deprive them the love of ANYONE who is willing to step up and love them?

 

I thank you for your concern, but I would not be willing to deny my children the pleasure that they get from his company, or him the pleasure he gets from their company.