Lets actually pick apart what the problem is with the dating market

[phineas]

Quoted because D-Jam does it again.

 

He does make a lot of sense.

I've experianced more than a few times when a woman will "poof" after the first date then call me up out of the blue a few weeks later & just pretend she didn't blow me & off & seems to expect me to pretend it didn't happen either.

 

Why?

My theory is someone else caught their eye. They went all in & it blew up in their face.

Then they realized i wasn't so bad afterall & expected me to just be happy they were willing to give me another chance.

I wasn't.

 

I could be wrong though.

[espec10001]

What are you talking about?

 

Which women dateing today experianced being treated as a man's property?

 

Certainly not the 20 somethings manipulating me 10yrs ago.

 

That doesn't even make sense to me.

 

women act the way they do because someone they don't know was treated in a way they never witnessed?

 

They manipulate you because you let them. There is no rule saying that you had to fall for any of it. How can a woman manipulate you if you just keep it strictly on a friendship level at first, getting to know her as a person. If you are just trying to get into her pants, well, you shouldn't be surprised if she demands payment in some form, or if she gives it away freely that it will be a short fling. You have to respect females as equals first before you can get going.

[meerkat stew]

As long as men let the vagina hold power over them, none of the rightly-felt hand-wringing and chest-beating will matter. Some other, less selective male will bang that broad

 

This is the essence of it, and it's only been over the last 40 years that the pursuit of sex, in and of itself, has been culturally accepted as worthy. Don Juan/Giovanni, Casanova, etc., all considered deeply flawed, freakish human beings, fun to look at and laugh at, and watch them go down in flames. They weren't considered as real men, but as weak with little substance.

 

Today, advertising has made us an oversexed culture where Don Juan is the male cultural ideal. Sex is the most fundamental advertising tool, and if consumers can be turned into sex addicts, they are more easily swayed by sexual images. Instead of substantial pursuits, every guy wants to be Don Juan, and women are completely onboard with this because it equals more attention and most people like attention.

[meerkat stew]

Man this is self-awareness day for me.

 

I've dated many guys that don't fit in my family's income bracket. I really don't mind. Thats the thing though... I don't mind. Does that make me a place-holder?

 

A guy that is super successful is definitely more attractive (to me) than a guy who isn't. I don't desire to live a wealthy life, but the way I see it - if he has money, things will come easier, and whats wrong with things being easy? ;p

 

The point of that post was that you can't assume someone is not money motivated, or a gold-digger, merely based on their income. In fact, the opposite is often the case. The first thing I said was that each dating prospect must be considered on a case by case basis.

[Miko]

How can a woman manipulate you if you just keep it strictly on a friendship level at first, getting to know her as a person.

 

Disagree completely. I think very few would agree that 'friends first' is a good way to get anywhere in most situations, especially to avoid being manipulated. The 'friend zone' is nothing but a big mindf*** for most guys who haven't figured that out yet.

[Agoraphobianebula]

 

Not a single female poster has answered my initial question, not one. Here it is again. If the average American woman (the average, not an outlier, not you) went on her next first date and the guy wanted to go dutch instead of paying, would she be more likely to a) cheerfully accept that as a sign he considered her an equal, or b) come here and make a thread on how cheap her last date was? There's no "trick" in this question, but it's understandable that no woman wants to answer it honestly.

 

 

 

Well here is a honest answer from a woman to you. If I went on a date with a guy and we both enjoyed the date, chemistry was there, conversation flowed, there was enthusiasm in seeing each other again. I would be a little put off if he asked me to go dutch. An insistence on going dutch to me will not convey a sign that he considers me his equal, it would come across like he's trying to make some kind of misguided and uncomfortable statement. Buying someone dinner in no way sends the message that a person is inferior to you. IT'S JUST A NICE GUESTURE. Like buying a friend a gift, treating your parents to dinner, sending your nephew a gift card. It's just someone nice you do for someone you like. Mind you, I would probably be reaching for the check before he makes a move anyway because in my excitement of meeting someone so cool, I'd want to treat HIM to dinner. I would hope that he'd share the same sentiment.

 

Most of my first dates have ended up being dutch anyway because I've insisted that we both have to treat each other. I enjoyed his company as much as he did mine so I want to show appreciation by treating him to something, be it splitting the check, dessert afterwards, drinks or ice cream. I find it grossly uncomfortable to just sit there and let someone fork over $100+ of his hard earned money when we are clearly both earning a salary.

 

If the date was so so, then there is no question that we will be going dutch, I may buy him coffee for his time but each person pays for their own meal, that just goes without saying.

[phineas]

They manipulate you because you let them. There is no rule saying that you had to fall for any of it. How can a woman manipulate you if you just keep it strictly on a friendship level at first, getting to know her as a person. If you are just trying to get into her pants, well, you shouldn't be surprised if she demands payment in some form, or if she gives it away freely that it will be a short fling. You have to respect females as equals first before you can get going.

 

You are correct on the manipulation part. I admit that fully & have chaulked that up to inexperiance & stupidity on my part. note I said 10 yrs ago.

 

It isn't like that now.

 

But you ignored the rest of my post & failed to explain how women that never lived in a world where men treated them like possesions now feel they need to exact revenge on the men of today.

[espec10001]

Disagree completely. I think very few would agree that 'friends first' is a good way to get anywhere in most situations, especially to avoid being manipulated. The 'friend zone' is nothing but a big mindf*** for most guys who haven't figured that out yet.

 

HAHAHA. You want to know why the "friend zone" is such a mind****? Cause you fall time and time again for how she looks, paying little attention to what she's actually saying. Thus you get played the fool, over and over. I can't tell you how many times I've been with a really pretty girl, I mean stunning, at least to me. But by listening to her and her words, it occurred to me that no matter how stunning she is on the outside, it is best that we remain friends. By staying friends with a female, guess what? She has friends who you could potentially click with better.

 

And trust me I've fallen a few times for the bodies, the looks, irresistible they can be, no? But they enjoy men who resist, they like men who listen to them, and if you play your cards right, you just might get what you want. And most of all, they just want to have fun. Women respond most to propositions of having fun.

[espec10001]

You are correct on the manipulation part. I admit that fully & have chaulked that up to inexperiance & stupidity on my part. note I said 10 yrs ago.

 

It isn't like that now.

 

But you ignored the rest of my post & failed to explain how women that never lived in a world where men treated them like possesions now feel they need to exact revenge on the men of today.

 

Because they can see the same things you see. It's all out there, on the Internet, all the history. It isn't about revenge, it is about equal rights, equal opportunity. We all want equality in relationships, don't we?

 

The more you fight it, the more you are going to be treated like crap by women.

[Woggle]

That is exactly how most women feel. Whether a man is good or not he should have to suffer the payback because their father cheated on their mother or treated them lik property. A man is pretty damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Most women feel that men deserve to get cheated and mistreated. There is simply no incentive whatsoever for a man to be this good and faithful man that women claim to want. If I am screwed either way I will just be a jerk because there is more freedom in it than kissing the ass of some woman that won't appreciate it anyway.

[carhill]

My father expressed his desire to possess my mother by repeatedly buying suits at the clothier where she worked until he gained her attention and interest. Thus began a pattern of possession which would repeat over the next 35 years until he died with her at his side. This from a man who was betrayed and deserted by his W while in the service of our country during WW2; even the loss of his family did not sway his intrinsic philosophy.

 

For many men, even those living generations ago, women were not seen as property or possessions, and there were some fortunate women who saw value in that and embraced it. For me, my existence depended on it, literally. It was a philosophy which I hoped to instill in a son or daughter so they might see the world with better eyes. Ah, well, such is life. I take guidance from my departed father as I navigate the waters of divorce and cast an eye upon the opposite gender during this difficult time. It sustains me.

 

I hope, for others navigating such waters, similar sustenance can be found.

[Miko]

HAHAHA. You want to know why the "friend zone" is such a mind****? Cause you fall time and time again for how she looks, paying little attention to what she's actually saying. Thus you get played the fool, over and over. I can't tell you how many times I've been with a really pretty girl, I mean stunning, at least to me. But by listening to her and her words, it occurred to me that no matter how stunning she is on the outside, it is best that we remain friends. By staying friends with a female, guess what? She has friends who you could potentially click with better.

 

Any time it's ever happened to me they've always been really touchy feely among other things so it sure didn't 'seem' like 'just friends'. It's been a long time since I've gotten myself in that situation without being like 'woah, bff's? I don't think so' and then everythings out in the open and thank god it's over. You can be friends but you can't really be 'best friends' that's where it gets difficult.

 

I always did wonder how they wouldn't understand that, ok, I think you're cute, fun, smart, sexy and YES, I can't stop thinking about f***ing you sideways so YES, our coffeeshop conversations might be weird from now on b/c I know it, you know it, and if we don't do it soon I'm gonna jump outta my f***ing skin and it MIGHT ruin things, sorry.

 

It makes more sense in my old age though

[Sam Spade]

That is exactly how most women feel. Whether a man is good or not he should have to suffer the payback because their father cheated on their mother or treated them lik property. A man is pretty damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Most women feel that men deserve to get cheated and mistreated. There is simply no incentive whatsoever for a man to be this good and faithful man that women claim to want. If I am screwed either way I will just be a jerk because there is more freedom in it than kissing the ass of some woman that won't appreciate it anyway.

 

 

Not to mention that it is all a cooked argument...

Professionally speaking, true gender equality became possible only after the unprecedented prosperity in the 19th and 20th century, when technological changes actually made it possible for women to participate in the labor force alongside men - typically in jobs that do not require too much physical strength, and today most jobs don't.

 

I wonder why there aren't many women complaining that they are under-represented among auto-mechanics .

 

I ask all the budding feminists here to honestly answer this question:

 

If you were to get back in time, would you honestly prefer fighting in war (wars where you actually look in the eye the soldier that is about to stab you), digging coal, or building homes to working on the household and hanging out with your kids?

 

I didn't think so.

 

 

Not to mention that the protection of the women, children and the elderly is the basic code of honor that has been followed time and time again all over the world.

 

This "oppression" argument is merely a strawman argument considering that the second it was actually possible for women to participate in the labor force - they did .

[silic0ntoad]

The friendzone is a huge mind****. Whoever said you were played a fool for being FZ'd is a moron. Women can be so manipulative that you have no clue wether you're damned or not.

[Sam Spade]

My father expressed his desire to possess my mother by repeatedly buying suits at the clothier where she worked until he gained her attention and interest.

 

This is one of the best stories ever:love: The nuances of the situation are too much to think about, so I'll just swoon:cool:

[Woggle]

The other irony is that men who treat women the way they claim we all treat them are the ones they respond best to. The winners in this modern day dating era are the men who ignored society's attempts to emasculate men. Women seem to fall all over them. I really think that many of these super independent ball busting women have a subconcious desire for a man to stand up to them and take his balls back.

[espec10001]

Oh wait a minute! Just yesterday I said that the females in the world know men, they understand their desires, and they can sense what is in their hearts.

 

And I was ridiculed and told what I was saying wasn't true! Sounds to me like the guys in this thread are proving my point. They KNOW you want to f*** them, and they say tsk tsk, you're going to pay until you learn! That's why they always find out if you are lying. Don't lie to them, guys will lie to get in the pants of a girl, but they know you are lying. You can't hide your desires from women!

[carhill]

This is one of the best stories ever:love: The nuances of the situation are too much to think about, so I'll just swoon:cool:

LOL, well, she was a print ad model for the clothier so it wasn't like he had no impetus

 

Imagine stopping by at closing time, pretending to shop and then asking a very single, very independent young lady to walk down the street for some dinner and dancing. That was 1950. I can look into those eyes which no longer recognize me and see all those images from stories repeated decades ago. Time marches on. Don't waste it

[calizaggy]

I ask all the budding feminists here to honestly answer this question:

 

If you were to get back in time, would you honestly prefer fighting in war (wars where you actually look in the eye the soldier that is about to stab you), digging coal, or building homes to working on the household and hanging out with your kids?

 

I didn't think so.

 

 

Not to mention that the protection of the women, children and the elderly is the basic code of honor that has been followed time and time again all over the world.

 

This "oppression" argument is merely a strawman argument considering that the second it was actually possible for women to participate in the labor force - they did .

 

 

Exactly...

Feminism bascially ignores the reality of the times to create division between men and women.

[Woggle]

Oh wait a minute! Just yesterday I said that the females in the world know men, they understand their desires, and they can sense what is in their hearts.

 

And I was ridiculed and told what I was saying wasn't true! Sounds to me like the guys in this thread are proving my point. They KNOW you want to f*** them, and they say tsk tsk, you're going to pay until you learn! That's why they always find out if you are lying. Don't lie to them, guys will lie to get in the pants of a girl, but they know you are lying. You can't hide your desires from women!

 

Most women would not know a player if he fell on their lap. Why do you think so many women fall so hard for married men?

[phineas]

The other irony is that men who treat women the way they claim we all treat them are the ones they respond best to. The winners in this modern day dating era are the men who ignored society's attempts to emasculate men. Women seem to fall all over them. I really think that many of these super independent ball busting women have a subconcious desire for a man to stand up to them and take his balls back.

 

I agree. I've noticed this myself lately since my seperation.

I have a zero BS tolerance now when it comes to women.

 

Once they have realised the cleavage wear or the oh so tight fitting jeans don't get my attention they stop trying to stimulate whats below my belt & start trying to stimulate whats between my ears.

[Miko]

Once they have realised the cleavage wear or the oh so tight fitting jeans don't get my attention they stop trying to stimulate whats below my belt & start trying to stimulate whats between my ears.

 

Wait...why would you want a woman to stop trying to stimulate you below the belt ? Say again?

[torranceshipman]

I think people are just too down on dating and too ready to be pessimistic which comes off really, really badly to potential partners. A jaded dater is the worse thing ever.

 

I mean, ok, I've been there, a LONG time single, but I dated the whole time and enjoyed myself although I did think wow, am I going to be single forever?! (better that than with the wrong person, though)...but now, I'm with someone amazing. But a big part of this amazing R working out from the get go, was that I was willing to keep looking...I was so baggage free and open minded about appreciating this guy as an individual for who he was, and not just saying 'oh this won't work out, oh I bet hes a player, he'll have to prove he's a good guy' etc etc...I just went with the flow and it was brilliant and still is.

 

Don't make potential new partners pay for your previous bad dating experiences, and just roll with it for as long as it takes to meet the one, because it will happen eventually but only if you don't give up

[meerkat stew]

Originally Posted by meerkat stew

Not a single female poster has answered my initial question, not one. Here it is again. If the average American woman (the average, not an outlier, not you) went on her next first date and the guy wanted to go dutch instead of paying, would she be more likely to a) cheerfully accept that as a sign he considered her an equal, or b) come here and make a thread on how cheap her last date was? There's no "trick" in this question, but it's understandable that no woman wants to answer it honestly.

 

 

Well here is a honest answer from a woman to you. If I went on a date with a guy and we both enjoyed the date, chemistry was there, conversation flowed, there was enthusiasm in seeing each other again. I would be a little put off if he asked me to go dutch.

 

Thanks for the honest answer, but that wasn't the question I asked. Would the -average- woman (not you) be more likely to accept going dutch a) cheerfully, as a sign that she was being thought of as an equal? or b) negatively and come here to make a thread about how cheap her last date was? the average woman, a) or b)?

 

 

An insistence on going dutch to me will not convey a sign that he considers me his equal, it would come across like he's trying to make some kind of misguided and uncomfortable statement.

 

And just what statement would that be? You talk about a statement without describing it sufficiently. Why would such a statement be necessarily misguided or uncomfortable? Could such a statement also be "enlightened" or "principled?" Why is it that he must be making any kind of "statement" at all?

 

Is it possible that the obligation to pay for early dates is such a deeply ingrained double standard in a world that is supposed to be otherwise equal now that any deviation by a man from the double standard necessarily implies that he is making some misguided, uncomfortable statement?

 

Let's cut to the chase, though. The average woman is going to call him "cheap," she's not going to get even as far as analyzing his supposed statement. She will tell her family, friends, schoolmates and any one else who will listen, basically everyone in the community, via the amazing and instantaneous "female communication network" that he is cheap, maybe even damaging his reputation in the act of doing so.

 

Let's look at one other double standard. Suzy won't have sex with Bob, so Bob goes around town calling Suzy a whore. This is deplorable. Suzy accesses the female communication network and Bob suffers as a result. Suzy's brother kicks Bob's ass at school and Bob later gets beat up in a bar by Suzy's male friends. Moreover, Bob is branded by all the women in Suzy's network as a crude sexist and to escape all this ire, Bob has to run off and join the circus.

 

The next week, Suzy sleeps with Jim, a guy she doesn't know that well, after getting drunk. Jim doesn't return Suzy's phone calls afterwards. Suzy accesses the female communication network and tells everyone in the world that Jim is a "player." She then comes here asking for advice as she feels bad that the "player" tricked her. The replies are universally consoling and supporting, "Hun, don't feel bad that the mean ole "player" tricked you." One guy protests and says that the use of the term "player" is sexist and wrong in this case. He is shouted down and called insensitive and a misogynist. And as for female posters who agree that "player" is a sexist term, and that sexism of any stripe is bad? The crickets chirp as a tumbleweed silently rolls across the thread.

 

The week after that, Suzy gets a bouquet of roses from Roger, the overweight "friend" who sits in the cubicle across from her at work. She thought they were from Fred, the hot guy in the corner office who makes $300k. When she finds out they are actually from Roger, she accesses the female communication network and weepingly tells everyone what a creep this Roger is, and how she is now uncomfortable at work because of his presumptuous gesture. She ponders making a complaint to HR about Roger, but cooler heads prevail and she ends up not doing that. She then comes here and makes a thread titled "where are all the good men?" and mentions "creeps" and "stalkers" in that thread without much detail.

 

Here's where the real fun begins. One single male poster complains that using the terms "creep" and "stalker" are sexist in this context. Eight women jump in the thread angrily. All eight say the same thing in their posts, "I had a stalker once, you are insensitive to the plight of women!" Support for the male poster from women who think that all sexism is wrong and so women shouldn't toss around terms like "creep" and "stalker" indiscriminately? Once more, the crickets chirp, cattle low plaintively in the distance as a tumbleweed rolls across the thread.

 

When Suzie is the victim, she has the brunt of the modern feminized world at her back. When Suzy is the sexist, is she held accountable? Of course not. Is there a woman here, in this thread, who will at least admit that the above represents a very obnoxious double standard? Crickets chirp, cattle low plaintively...

 

Buying someone dinner in no way sends the message that a person is inferior to you. IT'S JUST A NICE GUESTURE. Like buying a friend a gift, treating your parents to dinner, sending your nephew a gift card. It's just someone nice you do for someone you like.

 

Really? it's just a "nice gesture" and not a general expectation of most women in our culture that men are to pay for the first several dates? You sure about that?

[phineas]

Wait...why would you want a woman to stop trying to stimulate you below the belt ? Say again?

 

LOL!

Visually in a "i'm hot so you must pay attention to me" way.

I think we can agree a man won't get far under those conditions.

You have to show them that pretty aint enough.

Then the tables are turned & their interested enough in you to stop trying to play with you & start conversing with you like a real human being.