should guys look at porn when they are married?

[loveregardless]

but you cannot expect peoples thought processes to not have changed substantially because of what the last few hundred years have brought. "Evolution" is a process which takes thousands and millions of years, agreed. But that is physical evolution...our mental evolution and our technological evolution, our emotional evolution, etc. has moved at a much quicker pace in recent years than in all previous eras combined. I don't have an opinion on that for the purpose of this conversation, but thats how it is, thats where we are at.

I am perfectly aware at the process of human evolution and the arrival of prehuman and human species on this planet....and how long ago this took place. I am however arguing that we cannot continue to think the same thoughts and maintain the same behaviors as we did in previous eras when we were not privelaged to the same knowledge, technology, medicine, etc. that we are today.

 

Nature and Evolution no longer rule our world or our lives, we abandoned the supremacy of either a long time ago. And if that is the path we have chosen then the previous ideas and behaviors must also be abandoned. You cannot have the "best " of both worlds...you cannot choose which evolutionary aspects to acknowlegde and which to overcome/control.

[blind_otter]

i'm familiar with evolutionary psychology's theory of emotions. pure from a funcitonality standpoint. Fighting, falling in love, escaping predators, confronting sexual infidelity, experiencing a failure-driven loss in status, responding to the death of a family member (and so on) each involved conditions, contingencies, situations, or event-types that recurred innumerable times in hominid evolutionary history. Repeated encounters with each kind of situation selected for adaptations that guided information-processing, behavior and the body adaptively through the clusters of conditions, demands, and contingencies that characterized that particular class of situation.

 

I agree that technological innovation (evolution is not the correct term here) has been fast. Most reserachers agree, however, that human evolution does not and cannot keep up with the speed of technology. Some implicate this in the escalating rates of depressive and anxiety disorders among humans today.

 

The whole point is that the ever quickening pace of technological change in our society has never occurred before. Therefore, how is it logical that human evolution has somehow intrinsically changed as well?

 

In the therapeutic process we sometimes say, you can't expect to change behavior patterns that you have engaged in for 25 years in 6 months (when clients express frustration at the pace of recovery). Same concept, bigger scale.

[flavius]

Sorry to play the egghead again. Did you know that your argument about the evolution of thought and consciousness was en vogue in the 1850-80's?

 

It is fascinating to read the 19th Century Russian novelists (War & Peace, and especially Crime & Punishment) for a critical look at this subject.

 

Thomas Cahill holds that there has only been one true revolution of thought in history, (Gifts of the Jews) which is the emergence of actionalism, the belief that individuals have an active role in the unfolding of history (versus being subject to impersonal forces of nature.) He sees that as coinciding with the emergence of the Jewish monotheist view of God as being personal and actional, versus a mere conglomeration of the impersonal forces of nature that "rule over" men. He traces how this revolution of worldview has spread domino-fashion around the world through the ages.

 

You know, if you read any of the writings of ancient western civilization, you cannot escape the conclusion that human thought, motivation, and consciousness has changed scarcely at all. Read Chaucer for a laugh, read Augustine for a lift, read Bacon for a headache.

 

There's nothing new under the sun, wrote Solomon, 3,500 years ago.

[loveregardless]

I said evolution because I meant evolution. If you would like to look up the definition of evolution then you can make yourself more comfortable with my word choice. Or here...I'll do it for everyone:

 

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.

 

The process of developing.

 

Thank you Webster. Now where was I...

 

There is no age in time that can be compared to modern day. Nor can any information regarding the reactions and thought processes of people be compared to modern day. It is a completely separate and unique time, therefore it is necessary for a completely separate and unique way of thinking. We are being exposed to things people in past eras would never have dreamed of, and it is impossible to know how they would have reacted and behaved, had they been.

 

The knowledge that a person can obtain at their very fingertips is the method by which human thought process could have evolved so quickly. When before have we had the opportunity to improve our intelligence, potential, behaviors and thoughts as we do today? That may be a much more individual evolution...or at least a much more difficult form of evolution to comprehend...but it is evolution nonetheless.

 

Again I would like to repeat my statement from before in response to your comment about NOT being able to change behaviors in such a short amount of time.

 

Nature and Evolution no longer rule our world or our lives, we abandoned the supremacy of either a long time ago. And if that is the path we have chosen then the previous ideas and behaviors must also be abandoned. You cannot have the "best " of both worlds...you cannot choose which evolutionary aspects to acknowledge and which to overcome/control.

 

The majority of our behaviors have already been changed. And they continue to change every time a new, easier more gratifying technology is introduced to our world. Why do we not resist the changes that suit our selfish desires...but resist those that require delay of gratification or sanctity of something?

 

I understand your arguments but like I said...you cannot chose which evolutionary aspects to overcome and control and which to accept and continue. They are completely dependent upon one another...and if we can accept the changes that give us exactly what we want-when we want it, then we can except the changes that require more self control and personal responsibility as well.

[blind_otter]

maybe you should let the faculty in my department know about your revolutionary findings regarding evolutionary theory, eh?

[loveregardless]

here I am trying to make peace with you and you cannot even accept that an individual CAN form their own theories and analysis of a situation...and just because a book hasn't been written about it or you didn't read about it in college doesn't make it any less valid or possible? What theories was I proposing that didn't make sense to you? What did I say that was wrong? What did I say that was completely illogical? Please explain to me why your thinking or that of your department is superior to mine?!??!??!

[blind_otter]

in academia, it is drilled into your head that published data and research is simply the only type of information that you should take seriously.

 

personal theories are great for conversation. but when i go into a professor's office i had better be able to cite my sources. if i went into my advisor's office and spouted off personal conjecture she would laugh at me, or at least be mildly amused.

 

i'm sorry if i am a little offended....i am surrounded by people who have dedicated their lives to the study of evolutionary psychology, tenured professors who have, in my opinion, personal views that are a hell of a lot more valid than mine are. I have the tiniest fraction of knowledge in comparison.

 

it's not *my* thinking, honestly - it's the established theories that have been widely accepted by most of the modern scientific community.

 

it is an intellectually elitist point of view, but irregardless....I simply find the theories of those who are actively researching in the field more valid than your average joe on the street.

[loveregardless]

I find the value of the average joe's thoughts to be much more important than those of ANY establishment.

 

Especially since any theory...established or not...is still a theory...when you can PROVE your theory to me...then I won't form my own thoughts and opinions anymore.

[blind_otter]

oh dear lord. i am done with this thread. i am sorry, but i am constantly offended by people who think the can form scientific theories based on self-help books and TV. blech.

 

this is why our society is disintigrating. ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ughughughuhguhguhguhgugh.

 

hey, the average joe wasn't responsible for the medical technology that you lauded, btw.

 

you claim to be well-read and extremely intelligent, yet fail to understand that the opinions of someone who knows what they are talking about are more valid than the opinions of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

what is that quote i learned in elementary school? those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it?

[loveregardless]

did I say I was right? Did I say I was smarter than everyone else in the world? did I say that I know everything? No. Never.

 

But I demand the same respect for my thoughts, opinons and THEORIES as I give to everyone else.

 

I fail to understand the opinions of someone who knows what they are talking about over my own. Toot your own horn much? Throwing yourself a party are we? Would you like me to bring the deflator or have you got your own? An opinion is an opinion regardless of WHO it comes from.

 

And I didn't LAUD and technologies or medical advances...obviously you have never read a single of my posts beyond this thread. I mentioned them...never lauded.

 

Our society is distentegrating because of free and independent thought? Really...hows THAT for a theory!

 

Your additude and arguments bore me and your intelligence and thinking patterns are obviously very limited to what you have been "told" and "taught". Obviously maturity has nothing to do with age.

 

What have I not learned from history. What on earth are you even talking about?

 

I thought this was about pornography???

[flavius]

Reading back over the thread I am wondering...were you addressing me about evolution? It seems like I am the only one in the whole thread it could have been directed to...?

 

"I said evolution because I meant evolution. If you would like to look up the definition of evolution then you can make yourself more comfortable with my word choice. Or here...I'll do it for everyone:

 

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development. "

 

What on earth did I say to spark that outburst?

 

I not only know what you meant by evolution, I continued to use the word in the exact same connatative sense. But you are correct in your perception that I disagree with your thesis that, as you reiterated:

 

"There is no age in time that can be compared to modern day. Nor can any information regarding the reactions and thought processes of people be compared to modern day. It is a completely separate and unique time, therefore it is necessary for a completely separate and unique way of thinking. We are being exposed to things people in past eras would never have dreamed of, and it is impossible to know how they would have reacted and behaved, had they been."

 

Do you realize what a logically radical statement that is? It inescapably implies that not only that we need not be guided by the past, but in fact that we must not be informed by any accumulated knowledge or wisdom. When ironically it has been the cumulation of knowledge that has brought us the miracles of the present age (like e-pornography, for instance. ) Were I less a gentleman I would be trying to beat your moral objections to pornography to dust with your theory of evolutionary/revolutionary thought:

 

"Nature and Evolution no longer rule our world or our lives, we abandoned the supremacy of either a long time ago. And if that is the path we have chosen then the previous ideas and behaviors must also be abandoned. "

 

See what you think of this...I think there are empirically observable constants that span from the beginnings of recorded history right up until this minute. For instance, I think that you would agree that the natural world has changed very little over the span of human existence, unaltered by technology. For instance, we think about somewhat different things, but we still think with essentially the same physical brain. That brain is still influenced by the physical body that is impinged by hunger, fatigue, gravity, sex drive, reproductive instinct, etc.

 

There are social-environmental realities are virtually unchanged over recorded history, too. For instance, every generation has had to deal with change, with "exposure to things that [earlier generations] would not have dreamed of." They each have had to invent new ways of thinking and negotiate new ways of interaction to meet the emerging technological, social, and environmental realities. The strong and rich still dominate the weak and poor, and they still at times show benevolence and mercy to them.

 

"The knowledge that a person can obtain at their very fingertips is the method by which human thought process could have evolved so quickly."

 

Yeah, but...um...they haven't! Human thought processes seem to have changed very little since ancient times. Themes in literature have changed little over the thousands of years that have witnessed the technological changes you are referring to. That indicates that human thought processes (logical, emotional, social, motivational) are essentially intact. If you think I'm just being a stodgy traditionalist, read a couple of Camille Paglia's great articles. (She's a brilliant libertarian feministlesbianpagan thinker, and Prof at Univ of PA I think) I'm not saying that to impress you, she really is interesting!)

 

Ultimately, your strong opinions about the depravity of pornography and the sanctity of your relationship are not based on the technological changes of the last 19 years, are they? Nor are they based on anything caused by those technological changes. In a world totally disconnected from the wisdom, morality, mythology, and order of the past, your own basis for these opinions is meaningless. In fact, the world you posit is really little different from a high-tech barbarism. If we all live only in the moment (and even 19 or 39 years is a but a cosmic moment) then nothing adequately restrains me from purchasing you (or raiding your family home with my 67 employees at hand, if necessary) and then employing you as my personal bathing assistant . The personal and public morality that does restrain me took thousands of years to evolve and it cannot exist in a world where all "previous ideas and behavior must be abandoned" every few years.

 

(Truth is I would not keep you in the bath chamber -- it would be a waste if your argumentation prowess were not on display in the trophy room! You are a PRIZE!)

[flavius]

My "expertise" is really just fascination, not so much education. I studied Intercultural Communication and International studies at Miami U, History and Communication (both Critical & Scientific) elsewhere. I always say that either I'm a Renaissance man or else I'm just highly unstable!

 

I've just done a lot of interesting things and known a lot of interesting people. I'm about half full of ****, too.

 

By the way the anthropological study about the 3-5 year marriage cycle? I never read it, but it was all the talk back in '91. That is the type of study I can't take seriously. I call that sort of thing "free floating science", where it is totally speculative in its conception and its conclusions. But it fit into the mold of the times, so it got lots of attention.

 

I'll bet you and I could drink a six-pack and come out with a 3-5 year crisis theory far more persuasive than that, and just as elegant.

[faux]

From what I know of marriage, if a husband does not view pornographic material on a regular basis, he will go insane and the marriage will be ruined. I find that pornography often keeps marriages "working".

 

Unfortunately, the wives who think pornography is evil and make unreasonable demands of their partners to stop viewing it, do not realize that viewing pornography is about the only thing keeping their husbands sane in the marriage. I know that I would ram my head through walls if I did not have some form of stress release, and had to be married to that type of woman.

[flavius]

I'm way over my word-quota for today, but you know, I think you misread my Turkey story. I didn't mean that we cannot control our Turkeyisticity. Just that they are not unique to people.

 

I'm not pro-porn. My views are quite different, very wordy, and they don't belong on this thread any more than do my pontifications on human nature and society.

[loveregardless]

What did I say to spark your attacks now? I wasn't even talking to you about the evolution thing I was talking to otter and I just got done getting her to stop arguing with me yesterday. I really don't feel like devoting anymore energy to this thread. I don't even know where this came from flavius?

[Muffin]

I totally agree that porn is ok & that "boys will be boys" and thats the way it is. id rather him check out some stupid pics than cheat on me. I also am the type of girl that really doesn't mind it too much.. it's either funny or in the moment can help move things along. and it's also a great educational tool!

 

But with that said, there's a catch & now this stupid **** is ruining my life. My boyfriend had a surgery it's impacted his ability to stay erect let alone cum. Hes gotton much better... cums once in a while... but now he can only cum when he jerks off. we realized that if he didn't cum for a few days it would be much easier and help him heal so we could have a good kosher sex life again. but i recently discovered hes starting to look at porn when i work & is just lying to me about it & screwing up all the work were supposed to be putttin ginto this.

 

i wouldnt care if he looked at porn, but considering our sex life is messed up right now, i feel betrayed that he could cheat on what were trying to accomplish. i feel as though if i have to make sacrafices he should be making them too (and it doesn't seem like he is).

 

if you have an opinion ,let me know.

thanks

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by Muffin

 

But with that said, there's a catch & now this stupid **** is ruining my life. My boyfriend had a surgery it's impacted his ability to stay erect let alone cum. Hes gotton much better... cums once in a while... but now he can only cum when he jerks off. we realized that if he didn't cum for a few days it would be much easier and help him heal so we could have a good kosher sex life again. but i recently discovered hes starting to look at porn when i work & is just lying to me about it & screwing up all the work were supposed to be putttin ginto this.

 

if you have an opinion ,let me know.

thanks

 

Personally, I have observed that men tend to avoid sex when they have confidence issues. obviously this surgery was a big deal to your BF - all men are worried about "johnson problems" as it were. he's probably not feeling very confident. have you discussed this issue openly (and not aggressively, which will lead to him enacting defensive barriers and lying more)? Have you explained that you feel he is not putting forth as much effort into your sex life as you are?

[flavius]

Oh. Nevermind.

[BlackOps]

Okay hi there!

 

Alright I am going to try and voice once and for all what is going on, in a guys head, and physically to make us do what we do...

When we are in our teens, sex is talked about, but since we are guys we can't seem like we don't know anything ourselves so we start collecting information about sex the best we can...Stories, video's, magazines, anything we can get a hold of. All of this time mind you we have a burning urge that consumes us to release our bodily fluids and enjoy the moment in which we are completely relaxed and feel as though we just won $1000.00 and got kissed by the prettiest girl in front of everyone. Guys have what medical specialists call Seminal Fluid ducts which fill up like tiny bladders which need to be released on average once every 2days which will be done with or without coaxing it to happen:(wet dreams). Since guys figure this feeling out at a relatively young age they masturbate at a increased rate through-out life. All the time mind you in the PRIVACY of our own rooms, bathrooms, or wherever we won't get caught... This is where I have to stress the fact that because of this, most guys will literally train themselves to cum quite a bit faster than will ever please a woman. Anyway I digress; given all that information now I will get to the fact that genetically guys and girls are DIFFERENT!!!!! Women, you HAVE to realize that guys are sexual sharks whether or not the admit it openly. We don't even begin to start to think like women unless our sexual hunger is satisfied... AKA: The well known scene from "There's something about Marry." Guys = physical(75%) Emotional(25%) Girls =Emotion (75%) Physical (25%) IN THAT ORDER!!! This is not to say that ALL guys are one way and ALL girls are another, but in GENERAL these averages are true. Now I can address your Magazine question... I have to agree with the comment that if it isn't bothering you now, why would it after your marriage? - My guess as to what you would answer is "we should be more committed in our relationship with one another." Okay so if I am right and this is what you would say then, I ask: "Do you think he is not committed to you fully now?" The bible states that if a man looks at another woman with lust that he has in fact committed adultery within his heart. If we are to live by these rules then porn is not to be looked at in a committed relationship. If we are more lenient on guys in today's era, then it is perfectly fine for him to look at other women with lust as long as he doesn't act on it... I often use this analogy when talking with my girlfriend.... "If you own a car and are perfectly happy with your car, why do you look at other cars?" A lot of times we as men look at other "cars" just to look with no intention of driving the other cars, but it's there and it captured our attention. This doesn't mean that we care for our car any less because the design of another caught our eye, no that merely shows the fact that humans want what they can't have. If you don't allow your husband to look at porn, he will want what he either doesn't, or can't have. This WILL cause him to lie to you. You should try and enjoy it more, this will make him feel as though he is free to make up his own mind on the subject. My guess is that, like me, he will never stop looking at other females as long as he lives... okay one last thing that REALLY bugs me!!! Why is it alright to joke about males sex organs such as mutilating them or dismembering them all together, and it isn't okay for us as guys to even compliment another girls features let alone joke about something so brutal!? Why attack the penis? Pleasure not Pain!!!! lust occurs within the mind, not the penis- no need to harm that organ!

 

-Josh

[loveregardless]

dude! I so wasn't even talking to you throughout the entirety of mine and otters argument. I was talking to otter. And we were both being relentless...not just me! I think it's nice that you want to put me in a trophy box but I don't appreciate the tone you have all of a sudden taken' with me. Oh. Never mind. That's what I was trying to do in the first place! Believe it or not I do not just argue for the sake of arguing...I don't even like hostile conversations like the one that took place...but I get supremely offended when my thoughts and opinions are attacked and not given the same consideration as everyone else's. If they had not been in the first place I would have never gotten into that in depth of a conversation. And even if I am wrong, which I never said I was right, I can still say whatever I please. I'm sorry that you though I was talking to you about the evolution thing, but I wasn't ....and other than that...I don't know what I did to get to inspire your reaction!

[flavius]

LoveR, you are endlessly fascinating. I was silly thinking that your bit was in response to my reference to evolution, but it is a public forum, and everyone pretty much addresses everyone and I would have replied to it anyway because it was interesting.

 

You should be reading M posts, not Otter's. After all, I have already established that I am the smart one, not her. (OtteRemedial?)

 

I doubt if you'll believe me, but there is no "tone" in my message except for that of a benevolent old soul.

 

"Oh. Nevermind." is a quote from Gilda Radner on the early Saturday Night Live programs. She did this bit like she was a news commentator, but she always missed the point; for instance she would do a long, ranting commentary about Presidential Erections instead of Presidential Elections. Jane Curtain would listen patiently and then when she finished, Jane would correct her mistake. Gilda always looked right into the camera and said, sincerely unashamed..."Oh. Nevermind." It's something we grown-ups say when we make a silly mistake.

 

Please hear this in the tone in which it is intended:

You're volatile. You're paranoid. You're warlike. You're wrong. And I think I'm in love!

 

Keep on crackin' heads, Kiddo! It makes my pulse race.

[flavius]

...and I think you like me, too.

[dnm1010]

blackops...

i might be happy driving my car cos i cant get any other car right now but given all the money in the world i would go buy the car of my dreams and i would look at all other cars and think wow mine is better. i do not think you made a very good analogy with the cars, i believe you made it sound like guys can look at other better cars while they settle for their cars. just until they can move up some car ladder... or so when their car is older and something newer and better is out they can give up their car and get another car.

as i said, bad analogy.

 

 

about porn, i think it is rediculous to ask other peoples acceptance on the matter. i do not need anyone to tell me if porn is good or bad because as long as i think its bad, to me it remains bad and offensive. and the other way around. i do think it is important to support people in their times of distress when they are upset over porn and need someoen to tell them it is ok for them to have their feelings and they do not need anyone elses approval.

[NeverLookedATPorn]

Originally posted by bluetuesday

i'm deeply frustrated by the lack of understanding this argument about porn has created.

 

if you're looking for a good argument against porn there are perfectly sound moral objections that have nothing to do with individual insecurities and everything to do with the objectification of women.

 

but just not liking the idea of your male partner getting turned on by women in magazines or in films or on the internet is a very bad argument. a man may derive enjoyment from cartoons and spend time watching them without you. if logically this would not be upsetting, what is it exclusively about porn that threatens you? secure women are unafraid of porn.

 

those who seek to dictate to their men what they can and cannot watch (or what they can and cannot do in any other area) are being grossly unfair.

 

the overwhelming majority of men do not watch porn because they would rather be doing the woman they're looking at than doing you. porn is not about emotional interaction, which is one reason many men like it so much. it is not a substitute for a real woman. it is just an enjoyable diversion which has no reflection on the quality of the relationship or any bearing on how they view their partner.

 

this may be hard to accept but it's true. you may not like the fact he watches porn, you may feel upset but your hurt is based on the misunderstanding that porn takes something away from you. it doesn't. you can continue not liking the fact that he uses porn, but don't pretend it's a logically consistent or rational argument.

 

and so the concerns most of the women here are voicing really have nothing to do with porn. porn is not the problem. if your man is using porn (or cartoons for that matter) as a way of avoiding intimacy with you, the problem is communication or fear or boredom. not porn.

 

You are talking about logic? Did you actually read what you said before posting it? breaking your vows isn't morally wrong? The premise of marriage is commiment to one women. By looking at other nakid women, you are breaking your commiment to this one women. These women have every right to be upset. They are married! With marriage comes responsibility from both individuals to be fully devoted to their partners. What is wrong with this argument - just because you don't agree with it does not make it a invalid argument. This argument is as valid as any other argument. You have not provided any evidence otherwise.

 

How would you know? People are generally different, some men look at porn for sexual release, other men for other things, etc... But you cannot say that it has no reflection on the quality of the relationship or any bearing on how they view their partner because you do not know about all cases. You are not the supreme expect on this issue. For a person so immerse in logic, you should know better than to say it is...blah... is is blah.... You are committing a fallacy of logic here -- hasty generalization -- look it up!

 

there are millions of women that enjoy porn that are insecure about themselves, in fact my best friend is extremely insecure but she loves looking at porn. In fact she looks at more porn than her boyfriend.

 

I'm sorry but you are trying discount their argument as invalid but anyone who has studied logic or had at least a first year college logic course would note that your argument is also flawed. So before you discount any argument on the basis of logic, perhaps you should review your own!

[NeverLookedAtPorn]

Originally posted by dnm1010

blackops...

i might be happy driving my car cos i cant get any other car right now but given all the money in the world i would go buy the car of my dreams and i would look at all other cars and think wow mine is better. i do not think you made a very good analogy with the cars, i believe you made it sound like guys can look at other better cars while they settle for their cars. just until they can move up some car ladder... or so when their car is older and something newer and better is out they can give up their car and get another car.

as i said, bad analogy.

 

 

about porn, i think it is rediculous to ask other peoples acceptance on the matter. i do not need anyone to tell me if porn is good or bad because as long as i think its bad, to me it remains bad and offensive. and the other way around. i do think it is important to support people in their times of distress when they are upset over porn and need someoen to tell them it is ok for them to have their feelings and they do not need anyone elses approval.

 

EXACTLY!

 

No validation is needed nor required but I think some people just need to talk about it. Some people actually feel better after ranting, I'm not one of them but still I think if it helps you, than rant and feel better!

 

 

Humanity is vile! One day we will all kill each other. Yah!