should guys look at porn when they are married?

[loveregardless]

that it is an issue of morals and ethics...its just unfortunate that most people do not have them.

[flavius]

127 posts on this thread is too many. Let it die out.

 

Next topic?

[Proto]

Originally posted by blind_otter

I am a woman. I like porn. I don't find it degrading because those involved are consenting adults who freely choose this occupation.

 

I feel that those with issues with porn have peronsonal moral issues, and it's ridiculous to make blanket statements about anything, especially when it comes to habits and preferences of indivdual human psyches. Same as those who think masturbation is wrong (yet infants do it without prompting or observing the behavior, hmmmm).

 

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner

[flavius]

Okay, Proto, but just one more thing.

 

I saw this thing on Discovery Channel about animals and sex. They demonstrated how you could put a cardboard sihouette of a female turkey head on a stake and stick it in the ground. The male turkeys gather around it and strut and peck and fight and generally get all geared up for mating.

 

My dear old saintly mother observed "it's Turkey-Porn, isn't it? They all know perfectly well it's not real, it's just a thing on a stick. But they are fascinated by it, really turned on. I'm glad God made me a woman, and I'm glad the barnyard is full of men."

 

So Proto, LoveR, and Mom, enjoy what God gave you. Remember what you got belongs to Him, so enjoy it, take care of it, and make Him proud.

 

Blessings to all

 

And by the way , WHY DON'T YOU ALL GET MARRIED AND HAVE A REAL LIFE? I'm no "bf" and I don't want no "gf." I'm a HUSBAND, and I LOVE IT!! This is the real thing, baby.

[Proto]

Originally posted by flavius

Okay, Proto, but just one more thing.

 

I saw this thing on Discovery Channel about animals and sex. They demonstrated how you could put a cardboard sihouette of a female turkey head on a stake and stick it in the ground. The male turkeys gather around it and strut and peck and fight and generally get all geared up for mating.

 

My dear old saintly mother observed "it's Turkey-Porn, isn't it? They all know perfectly well it's not real, it's just a thing on a stick. But they are fascinated by it, really turned on. I'm glad God made me a woman, and I'm glad the barnyard is full of men."

 

So Proto, LoveR, and Mom, enjoy what God gave you. Remember what you got belongs to Him, so enjoy it, take care of it, and make Him proud.

 

Blessings to all

 

And by the way , WHY DON'T YOU ALL GET MARRIED AND HAVE A REAL LIFE? I'm no "bf" and I don't want no "gf." I'm a HUSBAND, and I LOVE IT!! This is the real thing, baby.

 

 

Now THAT is a resonable, intelligent point of view that I can agree with.

 

And don't worry I plan on getting married, no doubt. It's just that I'm only 23 and still in college. By 24 I'll be done with school and I'll be ready to start my marriage plans up, same with my girlfriend. I hate dating around dude...I prefer relationships to casual dating.

 

Kayla and I hope to start having children before we turn 30, and we're looking at maybe 3.

 

 

Oh, and also I have EXTREMELY high ambitions and expectations for myself in the future and I want to make sure I either reach those or am well on my way to reaching those before we start up a family, know what I mean?

[bluetuesday]

Originally posted by flavius

 

My dear old saintly mother observed "it's Turkey-Porn, isn't it?

 

 

hahahah. turkey porn, this is killing me.

 

flav, you know you want to. looking for a new thread? ass licking hasn't come up for a while.

 

ah go on, go on, go on.

[flavius]

I'm not taking a swipe at you Proto, so you'll miss my point if you take it that way...

 

There is this odd generational thing these days where people actually shack up (versus marrying) in order to "keep up appearances." Everyone knows that young people with high expectations defer marriage so as not to interfere with their ambitions. It is expected, and in fact there is a bit of a stigma attached to marrying before 25.

 

Darned shame! It's like a whole generation of parents blinked and just failed to socialize a very important truth: Shackin' just is not marriage. A whole generation of upwardly mobile kids are missing something very, very hot. (They are also steppin' in a lot of cowpies on their way across the pasture to adulthood.)

 

I researched the marriage/shacking distinction extensively in grad school, and I can state authoritatively: those who say marriage is just a piece of paper are wrong. Married people are statistically more successful in virtually every facet of life. And yes, that includes plain old hott, nasty, pants-down-bottoms-up-sex.

 

What do you and Kayla and Tuesday think? And how about you LoveR, you're not afraid of moral questions, I'm intersted in what you think, too.

 

(but no fighting you two! )

[TylersMom]

[font=arial][/font][color=black][/color]

 

"I don't really give a damn about you or your sexual behavior...but I do care when you try to get on some high horse and look down on couples who are much more sexually open with each other than you are. Then it's my duty to kick that horse right out from under you and let you know that you really don't have the right to judge us, or men who are pleasing themselves. You don't have the right to control them, and you don't have the right shove your moral adgenda down his throat./"

 

Well, Proto, You say that you don't give a damn about our sexual behavior, THEN QUIT READING THIS POST!! This is for people who have a problem about it and talk about it, we dont need some rude guy coming in and talking about it. Yes, there are women out there who are insecure about their bodies, but its probably for a good reason. For me, I just had a child, and right after he started to look at porn again. Now, lets see why I would have a problem with it. I feel like I am not good enough for him. He has even told me himself that he is to lazy to put work into sex, but he can put work into jerking off instead of making love to his girlfriend? I applaud you too for having a good sex life, but its for us people who have a problem with this subject. We just have different opinions. why font you make a new post that puts your opinions up, instead of putting it on this one.

 

 

Tylers Mom

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by flavius

 

And by the way , WHY DON'T YOU ALL GET MARRIED AND HAVE A REAL LIFE? I'm no "bf" and I don't want no "gf." I'm a HUSBAND, and I LOVE IT!! This is the real thing, baby.

 

yeah. well some of us have been married and it was a total flop. and strangely enough, it wasn't because of my porn proclivities (although x-dh didn't indulge as much as i do). i come from a traditional family where all the women were married by 21, stay at home moms (relatively well off), squeezing out babies by 23.

 

I've also researched marriage in grad school. not my main topic, just a side interest. I looked at the historical perspective. Historically marriage is a financial contract between two individuals (father and husband) concerning the transfer of property (wife). The woman was protected by the contract because socially speaking, she did not have the same status as her husband (even in terms of being considered a human capable of rational thought or eligible for the benefits of higher education).

 

I feel that the social structure is changing because of the nature of marriage - it's not considered an essential part of adulthood anymore, and the 67% failure rate of marriages indicates that society at large is moving in that direction as well.

 

Coincidentally, arranged marriages are more successful than traditional marriages - does that mean we should all engage in this practice as a rule?

[zara]

Originally posted by Proto

 

 

 

And I don't want to hear that crap about "put a man in your situation". Yes, I look at porn, BUT SO DOES MY GIRLFRIEND!!!

 

Fancy that! A girl who actually doesn't have ridiculous insecurities in regards to relieving yourself sexually. And guess what, she loves the fact that I look at porn because we both have very high sex drives, and we aren't going to be able to have sex EVERY SINGLE SECOND. That's where porn comes in and we both use it to take care of our sex drives when we can't be together and to get some ideas on how to further pleasure each other.

 

My girlfriend is a confident, STRONG WOMAN who doesn't feel threatened by a freakin picture of a girl that I will never ever see in my life, have contact with, and will be deleted off my computer in 15 minutes.

There really is no excuse for acting so petty and ridiculous over something of this miniscule importance.

 

Sweetheart, you are the one winding yourself up. Take a pill and try to wrap your head around the fact that we ARE strong and confident women. I'm not threatened by naked women - i'm a stripper for god's sake! i'm surrounded by them all day, lol! i have an hourglass figure, perfect dd boobs and people pay to look at me. So enough with the insecure schtick. As for sexually adventurous, sugar, i'd make your hair curl, heart stop and closed mind give up and crawl outta your ear with my bedroom antics, so you can kiss goodbye to that 'theory' too. You remind me of those Victorian men who branded women "hysterical" and "frigid" whenever they voiced an opinion.

 

The argument is about power and oppression and the right of a woman to be respected in the course of a relationship. And judging form the lack of that shown to thw women voicing theri concerns here, i'd suggest that's a concept you don't understand.

[loveregardless]

exactly. And just FYI....I'm not getting married right now because I'm 19 so get over it. I will be marrying my bf when we are in our own home and are financially secure enough to be doing so. And everything else Zara said...

 

And as for turkey porn...people only ever want to admit they are animals when it has something to do with being able to discount any sacred or moral views of sex. Anytime other than that they get on their supreme being, humans rule the world high horse and you don't hear another peep from them about being "animals"...

 

If you think porn should be accepted because turkeys get "excited" during mating season you have a very small grasp on the reality of the animal kingdom and the hormonal and seasonal effects of "mating" season on an animals behavior. If you want to be like a turkey...you can go without sex except for once a year for the purpose of procreation only. please people. ZARA FOR PRESIDENT.

[flavius]

Very thoughtful posting, Otter (I'm not sure why, I had thought blind otter was a lady...)

 

Interesting point about the financial/transfer of propert element of marriage. That element is an anthropological constant in marriage throughout the ages. But it is not historically the ESSENCE of marriage. Note that in probably the majority of individual marriage cases throughout the ages, the woman in fact IS the property being transfered! The only exceptions before modern times were the Judaic culture and a relative few and insignificant matriarchal tribal societies.

 

The essence of marriage has been the definition of the family structure, which then shapes the whole society. And the whole thing has been surprisingly durable over time and space. It is also notable that societies with firmly defined marriage/family structures have almost universally been durable and robust (e.g., China, the Catholi-sphere, etc.) while those with looser definitions have proved weak and fragile (ever heard or the Yanno Mami empire, or the Hutuk dynasty? No, because after thousands of years these societies never accomplished anything. In fact, they can barely even maintain minimum populations, even though they are "allowed" to have sex freely with almost anyone.)

 

You are right that the pivotal environmental factor impinging on marriage today is the empowerment of women. It is important to understand, though, that this empowerment is part of a larger whole, that is, the empowerment and liberation of people in general. Passing from the primeval to the agrarian to the industrial to the information ages has created an entirely new environment for everyone, not just women. We are certainly in a time of social-environmental upheaval, but no more so that we were when the majority of people were pushed off the land and into the industrial cities. Each of those transitions were characterized by new stresses, but families, defined by marriage, have actually endured almost miraculously.

 

Back to our own place and time, the ideals, commitments, and protections of marriage are not what cause the failure of marriages. It is the failure to embrace, honor, and submit to them that causes a marriage to fail. You know, I have a brother who sees things just like I do -- and it didn't stop his crazy wife from emptying his bank account and leaving town with her fitness instructor. Still, you can't use the aberrant as a yardstick to measure the normal. Married people stay together far more than unmarried cohabitants. That spells intimacy, and it bespeaks the value of what they are commited to. So the fact that marriages do fail does not mean that non-marriage is a better path to intimacy and fulfillment than marriage.

 

Current research reveals vividly that the generation just coming of age is far more enthusiastic about marriage that their parents' generation, though they would have less apparent need for it. I'm not worried that marriage itself is threatened or endangered.

 

I think that the institution of marriage springs from the very fabric of the human soul, as created by God. Each people group and age puts its own stamp on it, sometimes truly awful stamps (like the plains indians who cut off their wife's noses to make them too ugly to cheat, or the roughtly 1 billion who believe in slicing off girls' labia and clits because they think it's bad for them to enjoy sex ) Nevertheless, until God's kingdom comes on Earth I think that marriage in its various forms will continue to define families and shape the societies of the world.

 

This thread is really on the wrong board, isn't it?

 

I sure enjoyed what you had to say, Otter.

[zara]

Originally posted by loveregardless

ZARA FOR PRESIDENT.

Gimme the job - i could do that! If only i was American!

[loveregardless]

but everything you said is 100% legit. but what does that have to do with porn?????

[flavius]

I know you're 19. It's painted all over every posting you write. I'll bet you are a darned fine 19 year old, and I'd be proud of you if you were my daugher (or even my "gf"! )

 

Your reply to me basically restates, from your perspective, the way I characterized the attitude of the generation just coming of age. Well said, and more credible coming from you.

 

I was married to a 19 year old once, and we were quite poor. Now I'm married to a 39 year old, and we are quite rich. Being married only helped me in that respect, in spite of the fact that I actually had to drop out of college when I married. Apart from making me a better man (which you may doubt) it also allowed me to live and move among the well-established adult world from an early age. It's not what you know, it's who you know, you know? Now, the WHO that I knew never GAVE me anything, except for WHAT they KNEW.

 

It's hard to see the world thru the eyes of "bald men in neckties" when you are still (blessedly) a "hot girl in a halter top", but there really is a lot one can see from here that I could never have seen from there.

 

Just love, love, love. No high horse under me.

[loveregardless]

ZARA we need a non American president!

 

Flavius..I suppose I am rather obvious...but thank you for all your kind words. I am only 19, but I consider myself a very well read, intelligent, knowledgeable individual for any age.

 

Other than that, I'm not going to lie...I'm very confused as to what it is we're talking about.

 

As far as seeing the world from different perspectives...I think I consider all perspectives equally as valid and believe it or not can understand them all equally as well. I am constantly searching for and to understand all sides to each story and issue. That being said, I have formed my own morals and ethics, as well as my own opinions as a result of all of my previously and constantly gathered knowledge.

 

I wasn't trying to say that anyone in particular was on a high horse of any kind...only commenting on the high horse that human beings ride above the rest of the animal kingdom...until sex comes up in the discussion. Ironic is it not?

 

Everything you said about marriage and social propriety I 100% agree with. I am not actually familiar with the economic or financial side of marriage since, as you know, I have never been so, but in all honesty...it has no bearing on my desire to be married.

 

Attempting to tie together the marriage and porn discussion...I'll lastly say this.

I think that perhaps the younger generation values marriage more, because of the moral and ethical decline and responsibility of our society over the last few decades. I recognize the joke that marriage has almost become and that the sanctity of our union with another person is being discarded and new sexual freedom and intimacy dismissal has taken hold. I do not agree with this and quite frankly it frightens me to think how much worse our society will become, if as a new generation, we do not attempt to reestablish such thought and emphasis on morals/ethics and on sex as a sacred and procreative tool of permanently uniting two individuals. On an animalistic level, sex is strictly intended for procreation. Because of our advanced intelligence and abstract thinking, and subsequently or analysis of "emotions" and spirituality...sex for us as humans not only exists for procreation but for meshing/connecting/uniting the emotional existence/aspects/"soul" of the two people.

 

We're all animals. But we're not turkeys.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by flavius

Very thoughtful posting, Otter (I'm not sure why, I had thought blind otter was a lady...)

 

This thread is really on the wrong board, isn't it?

 

I sure enjoyed what you had to say, Otter.

 

Oddly enough, I am a woman....I have been accused of not being a lady, ha ha.

 

loveregardless - interesting idea, a non American president. good luck changing the constitution in the current xenophobic atmosphere! Also, I assume you are speaking from a judeo-christian perspective when you state that "human beings ride above the rest of the animal kingdom...until sex comes up in the discussion"?

 

I am intrigued by your knowledge and apparent expertise in this issue, flavius. What about non-judeo-christian based societies, named those of the long-lived aryan civilization of the indus valley? Also, where does the polygamy paradigm fit into the marriage schema?

 

I remember once reading a theoretical paper that stated that marital relationships often suffer that dip around 3-5 years because that is the length of time it takes to reproduce and raise an infant into childhood (infants are obviously much more fragile). Also in this paper was the conjecture that infidelity is an imminently surviveable characteristic because those with offspring from more than one partner are more likely to have one or more offspring survive to reproduce.

 

Which brings me back to the original point about pornography - I feel that this is the safest alternative to satisfying the urge to - (my favorite term) chase some strange - in the context of a monogamous relationship.

 

Part of my discomfort about regulating your spouse or partner's personal proclivities (especially in regard to porn) is that it really reminds me of Orwellian thought police. I mean come on.

 

"YOU! I know that you're THINKING of cheating with that imaginary woman who you, being a rational adult, realize is not based in reality!!!!!"

 

Snark.

[loveregardless]

Were we not just discussing people who intetentionally speak over the heads of others...just mere days ago. I understand your frivoulous banter otter, but only upon analyzing and serious consideration of "what the hell is she talking about". I prefer not to have to discuss things with people at such a ridiculous and elitist level...it's not very nice.

 

On that note, I was not referring to ANY perspective with my comment about human beings riding above the rest of the animal kingdom until sex comes into the discussion. I was talking about the words that come out of peoples mouths...on a frequent and constant basis...and of the mind set of the entirety of humanity, at least of American society...that likes to assert their superiority to the rest of the animal kingdom until we start talking about sex and then all of a sudden our animalistic nature becomes a roaring argument for their cause.

 

And my JOKE about Zara being president and our needing a non American president was in no way fishing for an analysis. It was a joke. People sometimes laugh when things are said in sarcasm.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by loveregardless

 

And my JOKE about Zara being president and our needing a non American president was in no way fishing for an analysis. It was a joke. People sometimes laugh when things are said in sarcasm.

 

well, cool. i suppose you got my joke, then?

 

snark.

[loveregardless]

I remember once reading a theoretical paper that stated that marital relationships often suffer that dip around 3-5 years because that is the length of time it takes to reproduce and raise an infant into childhood (infants are obviously much more fragile). Also in this paper was the conjecture that infidelity is an imminently surviveable characteristic because those with offspring from more than one partner are more likely to have one or more offspring survive to reproduce.

 

This is again using the argument of evolution and natural selection as well as animalistic nature in general to support your argument for infidelity, permiscuity; however you wanna spell it.

 

Our world as human beings is not governed by the laws of nature, and has not been since the development of tools and the evolution of our technology. If this theoretical paper you were speaking of was to of had any validity whatsoever it would have addressed to issue of NOT having sex for the purpose of procreation as the majority of the human animals that we are DO NOT. And it would also have suggested that because of our technology there is no need to reproduce with such ferver because the chance of your offspring being eaten by other predators or dying of any genetic defects is not at all relevant. If this were to be an argument for infidelity and permiscuity then people should start killing off their week offspring and revert back to the Darwinistic reality that exists in the rest of the animal kingdom. Perhaps even eat the offspring themselves as some animals must do to ensure they receive enough food, which can sometimes be necessary for an animal in a time of hardship.

This is ridiculous to say as is the rest of the argument.

 

And as far as the rest of your 1984 illusion of women trying to control the minds of their men....snark at yourself love because you sound exactly like proto and we've been there already.

[blind_otter]

ur....no comment.....

 

not to say that i'm speechless, but your statement was so full of fallacies that it would take too long to pick apart. take some sophomore level anthropology at the very least, hun.

 

apologies for how i write - i don't mean to speak over people's heads, this is simply how i learned to express myself and i refuse to dumb anything down.

[loveregardless]

if my statement is so full of fallacies then address them. If you are going to make a statement that sounds that superior and elitist, then you must be willing to dumb yourself down to our level in regards to our responses. I have in fact not taken any anthropogy classes...you are a very observant woman...but that does not mean that I have no idea what I'm talking about. And just because you have, doesn't mean that you know anymore than I do.

 

And p.s. You don't have to dumb anything down, people aren't dumb because they don't write like you just did. I'm certianly not dumb and don't appreciate that tone at all. That was the single most ridiculously over the top response I have ever read from any of the very intelligent people on this board. It is very possible to get your point accross without emphasizing your intelligence for intimidation purposes.

 

now please...pick my response apart...you can go word by word or sentence by sentence whichever would be easier for you.

 

And pardon me for sounding caustic but your additude is rather unnecessary. "Dumbing down" --"take some classes...at the least"-- "take too long to pick apart your statement"--"I am intrigued by your knowledge and apparent expertise in this issue"--"I assume you are speaking from...perspective"

 

Are you an anthropoligist? Are you a bioligist?

Is it necessary to be so sarcastic?

[loveregardless]

view point the article is still just as invalid. I do see what you were talking about now with your comment about my fallacies, but that was just my misinterpretation of your quoting the article. I was not aware that this was an anthropological paper...I was considering it as a biological or even evolutionary paper. Thats my misinterpretation and your failure to clarify. As an anthropological paper the argument may have had some validity at one point, but again, this is no longer necessary as the majority of our offspring survive in todays society thanks to modern medicine and technology. Does it not make sense that human relationships would have changed over the course of time as our perception and interpretation of feelings and emotions has also no doubt changed substantially since the time the paper was referring to? Is it not possible that in those times we were much closer to being JUST an advanced animal...and obviously much less evolved and therefore had more of a necessity for such an animalistic and "natural" way of life?

 

AND ONE MORE THING...

the concept of a single union between two creatures of the same species is often sometimes seen in nature, although not often. And the concept of a "marriage" between two people is not at all limited to the Judeo-Christian ideals...it is seen throughout many cultures world wide and that of a monogomous lifestlye is the most commonly practiced throughout the world.

[loveregardless]

often sometimes seen in nature but not often. ??

I am a moron! haha

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by loveregardless

I am intrigued by your knowledge and apparent expertise in this issue"

 

Are you an anthropoligist? Are you a bioligist?

 

psych graduate student. the above quote was directed to "flavius".

 

 

I will say this, however. the oldest fossil evidence for anatomically modern humans is about 130,000 years old in Africa, and there is evidence for modern humans in the Near East sometime before 90,000 years ago.

 

The industrial revolution you are so strenuously referring to happened approximately 120 years ago. (modern technology, etc.) Even then, most societies were still largely based on agriculture. Agrarian societies encourage population growth for their labor force.

 

Evolution is a long process. 100 years cannot undo 130,000 years.