Anyone else feel like men get less out of relationshisp than women?

[soserious1]

Any time men speak honestly about how we feel and what we go through in relationships we are called misogynists. Women are always getting at us for being emotionally closed up but when we do open up they don't like what they hear.

 

Are you saying that when women speak about how they feel and what they go thru in relationships, men are eager and clammoring to listen and overjoyed about what they're hearing?

 

A lot of the complaints cited have equally valid counter claims, such as the man having to go to work all day to pay the bills, many a professional woman has equally valid stories of being called a "ball busting castrating bitch" because she had the will and the drive to bring home the bacon to a man who then cries that she's emasculating him. A stay at home mother might well endure people whispering that she's dull and frumpy pr that she's putting too heavy a load on her poor overworked husband, yet come divorce time that same woman, the one who stayed home with the full support and consent of her husband suddenly becomes nothing more than a gold digging ho. If she goes out to work then she's accused of being more concerned about money than the welfare of her kids, her mothering is held suspect.

 

All of these lists men's and women's alike are generalizations, all of the problems listed aren't exhibted by ALL men or ALL women and certainly not 100% of the list ALL of the time.

 

As far as more specific issues.. I don't like war and don't favor sending anybody off to die. What I do favor is national civic service, a term of 2 yrs that would be required of both men and women post college. Think of the good that could be accomplished in our nation as newly minted college grads flooded our clinics, hospitals, our prisons, our schools etc.

 

As to divorce, I favor the presumption of 50/50 shared custody across every state, divorcing couples would be required to submit parenting plans, showing how they intended to not only stay actively involved in their child live but more importantly how they intended to co-operate

to the fullest to ensure that the other parent also felt welcome and involved. Divorcing parents have failed and in a big way to provide the one thing most needed to ensure healthy well adjusted children, the onus should be on BOTH to demonstrate how their failure isn't going to become the nation's problem.

[NoIDidn't]

Are you saying that when women speak about how they feel and what they go thru in relationships, men are eager and clammoring to listen and overjoyed about what they're hearing?

 

A lot of the complaints cited have equally valid counter claims, such as the man having to go to work all day to pay the bills, many a professional woman has equally valid stories of being called a "ball busting castrating bitch" because she had the will and the drive to bring home the bacon to a man who then cries that she's emasculating him. A stay at home mother might well endure people whispering that she's dull and frumpy pr that she's putting too heavy a load on her poor overworked husband, yet come divorce time that same woman, the one who stayed home with the full support and consent of her husband suddenly becomes nothing more than a gold digging ho. If she goes out to work then she's accused of being more concerned about money than the welfare of her kids, her mothering is held suspect.

 

All of these lists men's and women's alike are generalizations, all of the problems listed aren't exhibted by ALL men or ALL women and certainly not 100% of the list ALL of the time.

 

As far as more specific issues.. I don't like war and don't favor sending anybody off to die. What I do favor is national civic service, a term of 2 yrs that would be required of both men and women post college. Think of the good that could be accomplished in our nation as newly minted college grads flooded our clinics, hospitals, our prisons, our schools etc.

 

As to divorce, I favor the presumption of 50/50 shared custody across every state, divorcing couples would be required to submit parenting plans, showing how they intended to not only stay actively involved in their child live but more importantly how they intended to co-operate

to the fullest to ensure that the other parent also felt welcome and involved. Divorcing parents have failed and in a big way to provide the one thing most needed to ensure healthy well adjusted children, the onus should be on BOTH to demonstrate how their failure isn't going to become the nation's problem.

 

Great post. I, too, favor a national service term similar to what is required in Israel. But that's for another forum, I guess. LOL.

 

But a great post. Thanks!

[c-riouz]

Excellent posting, soserious!

 

And glad to see you back here.

[annieo]

Ladies, I can't believe you guys are continuing on with this back and forth pointless banter. You are just giving him what he wants - justification in order to further solidify a worldview that does not have a solid basis in reality. Not to mention the additional bonus of getting some reinforcement for his victimization status.

 

Seriously, this is akin to people trying to play chess with a seven year-old that just clumsily knocks all the pieces aside and triumphantly slams his pawn down on the board shouting, "Checkmate!" over and over again. I fail to see the point in even attempting to engage someone who quite honestly, isn't looking for open dialogue but to further their own agenda.

 

I don't think it was ladies (plural) but just me And my reasons for bantering were that there must be some reason (incident based or emotionally inflated) that the OP has this highly skewed schema of my gender. I was trying to get at the root of it, naively. I also wanted to make my own points (e.g., I don't want to send "my" men to war) which refute his argument. I don't know if I got through, but I hope I did, a little.

 

While I disagree with him on all points, and I'm not cool with the name calling, I also recognize that the anger is fear in disguise. Going back to bad parenting, maybe. Or some basic misunderstanding, mistrust, a deep unconsciousness. I think I was responding to the fear I heard.

 

Reciprocal name calling reinforces the OP's agenda, and it doesn't help any or us, not one bit. Sorry, probably been reading too much Eckart Tolle lately. Feeling very expansive and forgiving these days. There is a reason for all anger, even if it is misguided. You can't bludgeon it away with a barrage of words, or by preaching. Do this, and it will just go on and on.

[soserious1]

Excellent posting, soserious!

 

And glad to see you back here.

 

Just passing thru really but saw a this thread and recognized that it's just another case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

 

Some differences are hard wired into us, others are hammered into us by the needs and dictates of the society we live in. We must never forget that what is decided to be "normal" or socially expected behaviors are largely decided by our peer group. I daresay if the OP doesn't like the societal norms here he can attempt to rally for change or he can move to a region of the world where social norms are more to his liking.

[NoIDidn't]

Woggle, thank-you for being gender-paranoid on my behalf.

 

I appreciate it.

 

The irony remains, however, that woman-bashing threads are so poorly written, conceived and defended--especially when picked apart by women posters--that they offer irrefutable proof of male inferiority in making and defending arguments.

 

Now, if I was paranoid, I would suspect that women-bashing Threads like this are created by a cabal of man-hating female posters whose sole goal is to make men look stupid.

 

And it works!

 

Grogster, you're hilarious!

[Woggle]

Grogster' date=' you're hilarious![/quote']

 

I see Grogster got his pat on the head. Good for him.

[alphamale]

I see Grogster got his pat on the head. Good for him.

what are you up to woggle?

[Woggle]

what are you up to woggle?

 

Just me being an insomniac as usual.

[grogster]

I see Grogster got his pat on the head. Good for him.

 

You give women too much power, Woggle. In your world, women are this all knowing, all powerful malevolent force, in which good, honest men oppose their man-hating ideology and weak, venal men toady up to them: Fellow travelers, so to speak.

 

You cling with the tenacity of a fanboy to a gender-based manichean world-view that has nothing to do with how real, flesh and blood people lead their regular, everyday lives.

 

You misunderstand me. I enjoy strong, well made, persuasive argument and solid, cogent writing. Three things I detest are whining, bad writing and the elevation of paranoid ideology over human experience--all three of which are in over abundance in the women-hating posts and threads.

 

As for that pat on the head. I suspect I need that pat much less than you. On my stage, women are not all powerful players. Rather,they're neighbors, colleagues, friends, family members and lovers (once I get lucky and my drought ends). I don't live for female approval or attention. Or for male approval for that matter.

 

I view women as what they are--human beings with particular strengths and weaknesses --not evil, super powered cartoon Delilas ever ready to emasculate the Samsons in their lives.

 

My advice: sleep more, mingle more, go AWK.

[HsMomma]

I had faith in you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe you're a CUNT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder why men don't discuss their feelings. Every time he does and raises a legitimate concern one woman shames him and all the other harpies support her and jump on him.

 

**** you all.

 

Whoa, NTLS - that name-calling was WAYYYYYY uncalled for! I was laughing at her verbiage. You've crossed a line here, my friend. I tried my level best to talk WITH you, and you've wanted to hear nothing but agreement with what you believe.

 

Well, here's what I believe...when a man calls a woman the "C" word, that's when I stop thinking of him as a man. That is THE one word in the English language I simply will not tolerate AT ALL. My communications directed to you end here.

[Woggle]

No matter how blunt I am I never use the C word. To me that is just ignorance and a man does not win arguments that way.

[Thaddeus]

No matter how blunt I am I never use the C word. To me that is just ignorance and a man does not win arguments that way.

I have ladyfriends that use the word. It always takes me aback, but they say the spell it with a K.

[HsMomma]

No matter how blunt I am I never use the C word. To me that is just ignorance and a man does not win arguments that way.

 

You know what, Woggle? I believe this is the first time we actually AGREE on something! My dad used to say that people who used that kind of name-calling (denigrating) used it because they had no better command of the English language. One should be able to make one's point without having to get filthy doing so.

[Taramere]

You give women too much power, Woggle. In your world, women are this all knowing, all powerful malevolent force, in which good, honest men oppose their man-hating ideology and weak, venal men toady up to them: Fellow travelers, so to speak.

 

You cling with the tenacity of a fanboy to a gender-based manichean world-view that has nothing to do with how real, flesh and blood people lead their regular, everyday lives.

 

Do you ever find yourself wondering about that, though, grogster? I suspect that you come from a very different background from the one Woggle comes from. He's talked about growing up in a rough environment where a lot of his friends were involved in fighting and crime. If those were the men he was hanging out with, then presumably the women weren't too pleasantly behaved either.

 

I think a lot of the men who feel misogynistically towards women have an ideal of the kind of women they think they should be with. Someone who's attractive and well bred. Someone who has the basics to enjoy many more options (socially, professionally and romantically) than they have - but who doesn't know it, and therefore doesn't have an attitude of entitlement. But those women will most probably hook up with guys who are the male equivalent of themselves. Why wouldn't they?

 

The men who seriously hate women probably seriously hate their own lives. Whichever woman they're with simply serving as a reflection of that life.

 

As for that pat on the head. I suspect I need that pat much less than you. On my stage, women are not all powerful players. Rather,they're neighbors, colleagues, friends, family members and lovers

 

Your neighbours, colleagues, friends etc are most probably the kind of women Woggle doesn't believe actually exist, because he's not in that professional and social environment. And if he were, he most probably wouldn't feel he really belonged there....in which case, he would probably perceive the worst in those who did belong there, and get the worst from them. It's no win, really.

[grogster]

Do you ever find yourself wondering about that, though, grogster? I suspect that you come from a very different background from the one Woggle comes from. He's talked about growing up in a rough environment where a lot of his friends were involved in fighting and crime. If those were the men he was hanging out with, then presumably the women weren't too pleasantly behaved either.

 

I think a lot of the men who feel misogynistically towards women have an ideal of the kind of women they think they should be with. Someone who's attractive and well bred. Someone who has the basics to enjoy many more options (socially, professionally and romantically) than they have - but who doesn't know it, and therefore doesn't have an attitude of entitlement. But those women will most probably hook up with guys who are the male equivalent of themselves. Why wouldn't they?

 

The men who seriously hate women probably seriously hate their own lives. Whichever woman they're with simply serving as a reflection of that life.

 

 

 

Your neighbours, colleagues, friends etc are most probably the kind of women Woggle doesn't believe actually exist, because he's not in that professional and social environment. And if he were, he most probably wouldn't feel he really belonged there....in which case, he would probably perceive the worst in those who did belong there, and get the worst from them. It's no win, really.

 

So class is being introduced into the mix. I'm not entirely convinced that social class and the intellectual misogyny that I've seen here are related. If there's class resentment it would be directed at the despised class of the rich and privileged--not at women as women.

 

As for my silver spoon, close but no cigar. My divorced mother worked as a nurse full time while she raised three kids without any financial support from her alcoholic, philandering and felonious ex-husband. We all lived in my grandmother's row home. My grandmother worked in an underwear factory. Hardly 90210.

[HsMomma]

 

As for my silver spoon, close but no cigar. My divorced mother worked as a nurse full time while she raised three kids without any financial support from her alcoholic, philandering and felonious ex-husband. We all lived in my grandmother's row home. My grandmother worked in an underwear factory. Hardly 90210.

 

Sounds like my upbringing, Grogster...well, minus the felonious part! I don't think social standing has anything to do with this whole line of "reasoning" (I'm using the term loosely). I have known those in the upper strata who were misogynistic as well...I do believe that our core beliefs, whether they be toward men or women, tend to come from our own experiences - one-on-one, if you will - not so much in which arena one was raised.

 

I also have to wonder if a lot of the remarks made here are made for reasons of antagonizing vs. what someone actually believes to be true.

[Taramere]

So class is being introduced into the mix. I'm not entirely convinced that social class and the intellectual misogyny that I've seen here are related. If there's class resentment it would be directed at the despised class of the rich and privileged--not at women as women.

 

Maybe. I think that educated professional women frequently incur a good deal more wrath than their male counterparts. But you'd have to ask the misogynists what they think.

[grogster]

Sounds like my upbringing, Grogster...well, minus the felonious part! I don't think social standing has anything to do with this whole line of "reasoning" (I'm using the term loosely). I have known those in the upper strata who were misogynistic as well...I do believe that our core beliefs, whether they be toward men or women, tend to come from our own experiences - one-on-one, if you will - not so much in which arena one was raised.

 

I also have to wonder if a lot of the remarks made here are made for reasons of antagonizing vs. what someone actually believes to be true.

 

You said what I meant to say, only better.

 

As for the motivation behind the gender-baiting, I've said elsewhere that they're pleas for female attention.

 

But that's speculation on my part.

[HsMomma]

You said what I meant to say, only better.

 

As for the motivation behind the gender-baiting, I've said elsewhere that they're pleas for female attention.

 

But that's speculation on my part.

 

Or maybe just pleas for attention period...again, may not even be gender-related. As children, we always thought any attention, even negative, was better than no attention at all, right? Well, I think some people don't ever grow out of that mindset.

[grogster]

Maybe. I think that educated professional women frequently incur a good deal more wrath than their male counterparts. But you'd have to ask the misogynists what they think.

 

That does happen. Hark back to the Senate Judiciary Committee's abysmal treatment of Anita Hill or the Right Wing male froth over Hillary Clinton.

 

It's more difficult to discern social class on a message board, but not impossible. I know, for example, that you live in a castle somewhere on the British Isles.

 

Perhaps class resentment simply leavens the misogyny.

[HsMomma]

That does happen. Hark back to the Senate Judiciary Committee's abysmal treatment of Anita Hill or the Right Wing male froth over Hillary Clinton.

 

It's more difficult to discern social class on a message board, but not impossible. I know, for example, that you live in a castle somewhere on the British Isles.

 

Perhaps class resentment simply leavens the misogyny.

 

Ok, Grogster...I'll bite...my current social class??

[grogster]

Ok, Grogster...I'll bite...my current social class??

 

College educated professional.

 

Middle to upper middle class.

[Taramere]

That does happen. Hark back to the Senate Judiciary Committee's abysmal treatment of Anita Hill or the Right Wing male froth over Hillary Clinton.

 

It's more difficult to discern social class on a message board, but not impossible. I know, for example, that you live in a castle somewhere on the British Isles.

 

Of course I do! Gets a bit cold in the winter without a roof, but I'm sturdy enough to cope.

 

Perhaps class resentment simply leavens the misogyny.

 

I would focus more on education than on the class aspect - but the class aspect is probably important too, in that money is generally involved. Education and money help a woman to be independent on a practical level - and this seems to automatically translate, in some people's eyes, as a sign that she's a man-hating "feminazi".

 

And yes, I was thinking specifically of female politicians, as that tends to be the group that incurs the most wrath.

[HsMomma]

College educated professional.

 

Middle to upper middle class.

 

So, if I told you high school education & solid lower middle class, you wouldn't believe that? Or, to flip the coin, if I said PhD level education in a solid upper middle class you'd believe that?