Men and Women and Porn and Strip Clubs

[IceWind]

Once again, not wishing to acknowledge the implications behind the stripper dust and male comradery.

 

Does it exist? Yes. Is it right? Hell no. In the end, sorry, but I can't solve that problem.

[sally4sara]

Hell, if you wanna play the "Generalize and categorize based on no real facts" game, I'll go out on a limb state that woman deserve everything they got because Eve is the one who tempted Adam to take a bite out of the apple! Therefore, all our world problems have stemmed from a single woman! She broke Gods law, she tricked man and she herself has led us into the terrible world that is today, its all womans fault from the every beginning!

 

See how that works?

 

You just lobotomized yourself. Once again trying to solve a big problem with a small (easy convenient irrational made-up) solution.

 

You are such a big man!

[IceWind]

You are such a big man!

 

And your more bitter then a lemon.

[sally4sara]

And your more bitter then a lemon.

 

Which is the entirety of the point I made to begin with. You don't like the mirror being held up to your motives. Anyone who holds it is:

 

insecure

controlling

bitter

feminist

 

You can enjoy your porn and your strip club. Just don't pretend it isn't what it is and check yourself for why you toss insults around when asked to think about it for a moment.

All I asked of you is to think about what another poster is trying to say before you insult them and write them off. All you had to offer was insults for me. Why?

[IceWind]

Hey Shortie, if this is all there is in the wonderful state you call Jersey, I'll pass thank you very much

 

 

[IceWind]

All I asked of you is to think about what another poster is trying to say before you insult them and write them off. All you had to offer was insults for me. Why?

 

Because its so easy to do on the web

[BubblyPopcorn]

Hell, if you wanna play the "Generalize and categorize based on no real facts" game, I'll go out on a limb state that woman deserve everything they got because Eve is the one who tempted Adam to take a bite out of the apple! Therefore, all our world problems have stemmed from a single woman! She broke Gods law, she tricked man and she herself has led us into the terrible world that is today, its all womans fault from the every beginning!

 

 

 

 

 

See how that works?

 

That’s a fallacy. Eve was deceived by Satan through a serpent and ate the fruit. Adam ate it knowing he was doing the wrong thing... And let us not forget that Adam was in charge of the Garden

[IceWind]

That’s a fallacy. Eve was deceived by Satan through a serpent and ate the fruit. Adam ate it knowing he was doing the wrong thing... And let us not forget that Adam was in charge of the Garden

 

Depends on what "version" your reading. Don't even get me started with the Mormons.

[Jersey Shortie]

 

I don't think she is wrong in her views on this subject. It really is disgusting to watch men conveniently forget the women in strip clubs or porn are real people with every right to basic human respect as anyone else.

The "interchangeble" attitude is offensive.

 

I do watch porn with my fiance now and then. I am and have been since I was 5, aware of my attraction to women. I find mild enjoyment because of this. But here is the lowdown on that too - how can your lady of choice really be enjoying viewing the porn as much as you do? Can't really watch porn with your face buried in someone's groin. If she is on top of you and you are watching the porn, do you think she doesn't notice this? What do you think that message you're sending is?

 

When I watch porn, and because I am more interested in sex with men than sex with women, I do focus more on the guy. And you better believe I notice if he is bigger, longer, better looking, better built, etc..... If I was having sex with my partner and barely focused on him I'm sure he would notice. We'd end up watching a lot more lez porn I'm sure.

 

When I was younger, I was more concerned with the excitement level of the guy then my own enjoyment. Young girls are seeking approval for their newly bloomed bodies because they are concerned that they look "right". If they are emotionally scarred, they might be willing to do just about anything a guy requests. I rarely see any concern for the furthering of that scarring. Its so nice to see a bunch of guys say "hey thats YOUR problem, YOUR insecurities, don't point your finger at me" even though they're certainly happy to reap the result of that emotional scarring. Or "the only guy you didn't choose was your dad, the rest is your fault" when we all know we learn with varying degrees, from the model our mother or father provided us and use it to choose partners. The cliche of strippers and porn stars having "daddy issues" is an old one. Do you think about it when you watch porn and beat your meat or when you treat some girl in a club like trash and then pay her to give you a lap dance? Nope, not your problem.

 

But to point this out means I have insecurities? No. It just means I take stock of the damage I do to others in this life and try to minimize it to the best of my abilities. I can recognize the possibility of a guy going to a strip club or watching porn and still being able to conduct themselves with some dignity and respect towards women. I can recognize to possibility of a woman truely enjoying being an exibitionist and raw sexuality for the power (and money) it can give them without feeling victimized.

But I don't forget that those possibilities are exceedingly rare just to absolve myself of responsibility for my actions. Nor do I expect others to forget it too and tell them they are being controlling and insecure when they don't agree with me.

 

Is that not what I just said?

I don't think she is wrong in her views on this subject. It really is disgusting to watch men conveniently forget the women in strip clubs or porn are real people with every right to basic human respect as anyone else.

The "interchangeble" attitude is offensive.

 

I do watch porn with my fiance now and then. I am and have been since I was 5, aware of my attraction to women. I find mild enjoyment because of this. But here is the lowdown on that too - how can your lady of choice really be enjoying viewing the porn as much as you do? Can't really watch porn with your face buried in someone's groin. If she is on top of you and you are watching the porn, do you think she doesn't notice this? What do you think that message you're sending is?

 

When I watch porn, and because I am more interested in sex with men than sex with women, I do focus more on the guy. And you better believe I notice if he is bigger, longer, better looking, better built, etc..... If I was having sex with my partner and barely focused on him I'm sure he would notice. We'd end up watching a lot more lez porn I'm sure.

 

When I was younger, I was more concerned with the excitement level of the guy then my own enjoyment. Young girls are seeking approval for their newly bloomed bodies because they are concerned that they look "right". If they are emotionally scarred, they might be willing to do just about anything a guy requests. I rarely see any concern for the furthering of that scarring. Its so nice to see a bunch of guys say "hey thats YOUR problem, YOUR insecurities, don't point your finger at me" even though they're certainly happy to reap the result of that emotional scarring. Or "the only guy you didn't choose was your dad, the rest is your fault" when we all know we learn with varying degrees, from the model our mother or father provided us and use it to choose partners. The cliche of strippers and porn stars having "daddy issues" is an old one. Do you think about it when you watch porn and beat your meat or when you treat some girl in a club like trash and then pay her to give you a lap dance? Nope, not your problem.

 

But to point this out means I have insecurities? No. It just means I take stock of the damage I do to others in this life and try to minimize it to the best of my abilities. I can recognize the possibility of a guy going to a strip club or watching porn and still being able to conduct themselves with some dignity and respect towards women. I can recognize to possibility of a woman truely enjoying being an exibitionist and raw sexuality for the power (and money) it can give them without feeling victimized.

But I don't forget that those possibilities are exceedingly rare just to absolve myself of responsibility for my actions. Nor do I expect others to forget it too and tell them they are being controlling and insecure when they don't agree with me.

 

 

Thank you. Excellent points all around. It's like many men seem to think they aren't accountable for any of their actions. THeir "men"..everything they do is okay right? They don't have to live to any kind of standard. It's really rather frighening how unaccountable they hold themselves. Regardless if the girl in question chooses to do the movie or be a stripper, HE is deciding to interact with it. How is her choice dependent on what a man chooses to do with it? It's not! And any man that says "well these women choose to do this"...YOU choose to also engage in it. YOU. She is making the movie or doing the stripping but how in any logical or rational way does that make it okay for a man with a family, a girflriend, a wife of his own, make it okay for him to follow suit and then have the nerve to look down on the girl in the movie or the stripping when he is using her to benefit for himself? Like I said, porn makes men feel like men without requiring anything of him to really be a man.

 

 

I just said others not agreeing isn't just about insecurities and controlling nature. No one likes having a mirror held up to the ugly side of their motives. That is why Jersey gets ragged on alot.

 

I agree actually. Quite a few people rather attack me then be honest with even themselves. You notice how the people keep attacking me personally and aviod really discussing my viewpoinst by either agreeing or disagreeing.

[BubblyPopcorn]

Depends on what "version" your reading. Don't even get me started with the Mormons.

 

True, but he was still in command of operation Garden of Eden.

 

Btw, those Jersey pics, priceless! lol

[Jersey Shortie]

Now Icewind for you, other then your posted pictures being completely ignorant, you would have done better posting a white couple as trying to pander them off as white supremists in Georgia.

 

Jersey Shortie, i'm sorry but after reading your posts in this thread, you either have serious self confidence issues, or are just completely inflexible in your thinking and viewpoint of the world. Which is fine, thats you. Just remember that not all of subscribe to your personal newsletter

 

I have insecurties and I don't deny that. But you know what? Porn is about male insecurity. Why you may be asking? Because porn panders to every male insecurity and just makes it disappear...*puff*. All the men always satisfy, all the men are so sexually on the woman can't help but whither in pleasure, the man is usually the one in a position of power, she is eager to please him at any cost. Shall I go on about the level of insecurities that riddle men and are exposed in through pornography? Don't lecture to me about insecurity when you are riddled with them yourself as it's coming out all over this thread. But the difference between you and me is I see your insecurities nad realize the naturaliness of them. How men can't manage to get their minds around the fact that continually turning to a medium that puts women down, uses them, and holds them to ideal standard of beauty that most women can't meet, won't make a girl question what her guy really wants, is beyond me. How you can't see that your actions do infact affect others and sometimes it's a negative affect, again is beyond me. Keep living in that fantasy world where you don't think you should be accountable for your actions.

 

Last I recall, most woman in this country CHOOSE by their own DECISIONS to wether be part of the sex industry or not.

 

Don't demoralize an entire gender just because you can't deal with the fact that some woman like to make money,fame and fortune by their bodies alone. Your once again ASSUMING, and what do we know about assumptions? Yeah.....

 

Please read up on the subject before you try to pass off ficion as fact. Most women that get into the industry do so because they are needy, desperate and have no where else to turn. THere is a very limited amount that might truly enjoy it but no woman wants to be an object for a man's pleasure and nothing more. The women that get into the sex industry have major issues..drugs, sex abuse, low self confidence. Just because a girl strips her shirt off and bends over doesn't mean she is confident Sweetie. Infact, it usually means the exact opposite.

 

And yes THOSE women CHOOSE to do so. How does that make it okay for the millions of men out there with wives, girlfriensd and daughters of their own to look? Why are those women choice to put herself in a sex tap have ANYTHING to do with what you choose as a man??? Are you again trying to say that men are not accountable for their choices???

 

 

Hell, if you wanna play the "Generalize and categorize based on no real facts" game, I'll go out on a limb state that woman deserve everything they got because Eve is the one who tempted Adam to take a bite out of the apple! Therefore, all our world problems have stemmed from a single woman! She broke Gods law, she tricked man and she herself has led us into the terrible world that is today, its all womans fault from the every beginning!

 

I LOVE that you said this. I really do. Because it says SO MUCH about how you seem to view women and men. It was the perfect way to back yourself into your own insecure corner. "women deserve everything they got.." are not the words of a man that loves and respects women. THey are the words of an insecure man that fails to recongize his own sin. That doesn't want to protect women but shame them.

 

In the Bible, Adam is standing right next to Eve when the serpent offers her a bite. Adam knows better but Adams stands there passive to help and protect Eve. Eve sins too! Yes she does.She believes that God ish olding out on her, she believes there is something better out there for her. But Adam fails to protect her, fails to say "No Eve". Do you know the sins born from that that men and women both re-live? Men become passive. They aren't heros. They don't stand up for anything. And women become controlling, less vunerable, less open, they weren't *enough* to make Adam stand up for her. Less how God designed both of us. Don't sit there and lecture about what women deserved while failing to admit your own sin Icewind.

 

 

 

 

Depends on what "version" your reading. Don't even get me started with the Mormons.

 

What version would those be? Because you bring up a bibical reference and then try to back track out of it. The facts are pretty obvious in the Bible when itcomes to this story. Don't use bibical references and then try to back track out of them to twist them to your own agenda.

 

Amazingly done though. I am so glad you said what you did because it says so much about what you feel women are and what you feel men are.

[sally4sara]

Now Icewind for you

 

This is where you need to forgo the effort. Some people you just can't reach and the effort to type out an attempt to get them on the introspective tip isn't worth it. They won't get it, so try is just getting worked up over nothing. You need to focus on men who are NOT such shining examples of exactly what you feel is the problem. If they could be reached, they wouldn't be so likely to stoop to cheap methods and insults.

 

But what can you expect from someone who feels like another man's athletic ability or stature threatens the connectivity of his penis to his body? He SHOULD by all means understand what point you're trying to convey on this subject simply because he is so easily threatened himself, but empathy and intelligence don't always go hand in hand.

 

I feel where you come from. Sometimes there is so much ugly in the world. Holding that mirror is exhausting. You want to see a change for the better, but if you don't keep your humor about you.....you don't get to enjoy the good you have excepted into your life. And that is what are you fighting for after all........the good in this life.

[IceWind]

This is where you need to forgo the effort. Some people you just can't reach and the effort to type out an attempt to get them on the introspective tip isn't worth it. They won't get it, so try is just getting worked up over nothing. You need to focus on men who are NOT such shining examples of exactly what you feel is the problem. If they could be reached, they wouldn't be so likely to stoop to cheap methods and insults.

 

But what can you expect from someone who feels like another man's athletic ability or stature threatens the connectivity of his penis to his body? He SHOULD by all means understand what point you're trying to convey on this subject simply because he is so easily threatened himself, but empathy and intelligence don't always go hand in hand.

 

I feel where you come from. Sometimes there is so much ugly in the world. Holding that mirror is exhausting. You want to see a change for the better, but if you don't keep your humor about you.....you don't get to enjoy the good you have excepted into your life. And that is what are you fighting for after all........the good in this life.

 

Hah, thats real cute Sarah, pot call the kettle black anyone?

 

In your case, all I ask is for you afford your own crotchfruit. I don't want more money coming outa my paycheck to pay for your damn babies you couldn't afford to feed in the first place.

[Jersey Shortie]

This is where you need to forgo the effort. Some people you just can't reach and the effort to type out an attempt to get them on the introspective tip isn't worth it. They won't get it, so try is just getting worked up over nothing. You need to focus on men who are NOT such shining examples of exactly what you feel is the problem. If they could be reached, they wouldn't be so likely to stoop to cheap methods and insults.

 

But what can you expect from someone who feels like another man's athletic ability or stature threatens the connectivity of his penis to his body? He SHOULD by all means understand what point you're trying to convey on this subject simply because he is so easily threatened himself, but empathy and intelligence don't always go hand in hand.

 

I feel where you come from. Sometimes there is so much ugly in the world. Holding that mirror is exhausting. You want to see a change for the better, but if you don't keep your humor about you.....you don't get to enjoy the good you have excepted into your life. And that is what are you fighting for after all........the good in this life.

 

 

You're right Sally.... again good points.

[You'reasian]

This is where you need to forgo the effort. Some people you just can't reach and the effort to type out an attempt to get them on the introspective tip isn't worth it. They won't get it, so try is just getting worked up over nothing. You need to focus on men who are NOT such shining examples of exactly what you feel is the problem. If they could be reached, they wouldn't be so likely to stoop to cheap methods and insults.

 

But what can you expect from someone who feels like another man's athletic ability or stature threatens the connectivity of his penis to his body? He SHOULD by all means understand what point you're trying to convey on this subject simply because he is so easily threatened himself, but empathy and intelligence don't always go hand in hand.

 

I feel where you come from. Sometimes there is so much ugly in the world. Holding that mirror is exhausting. You want to see a change for the better, but if you don't keep your humor about you.....you don't get to enjoy the good you have excepted into your life. And that is what are you fighting for after all........the good in this life.

 

Unfortunately, the men whom you are trying to reach are not the men that you would want to be with, bed etc. just men whom you think or feel are susceptible to your cause - you're just trying to use them for your cause.

 

No man whose got a backbone and cajones (i.e. one you really respect) is going to receive and respect ultra-feminist beliefs, especially about porn and strippers.

 

Let each man decide for himself if he wants to look at porn and visit strip clubs. Again, I don't frequent them much - although I certainly would for a special occasion - but if they want to do so on a regular basis, I support them because it lets them kick back, relax and enjoy themselves.

[sally4sara]

Watch this:

 

Hah, thats real cute Sarah, pot call the kettle black anyone?

 

In your case, all I ask is for you afford your own crotchfruit. I don't want more money coming outa my paycheck to pay for your damn babies you couldn't afford to feed in the first place.

 

By using this insult, you assume I danced to feed my welfare kids.

 

I had no children, drug problem, or whatever else you might assume when I danced and have never been on governmental assistance.

 

But the fact that you assume I chose to dance MUST have been for a stereotypical reason and also a reason as weighty as feeding my kid and not because I wanted to. This shows you can see where women don't usually grow up desiring to be the interchangeable, eye-candy, entertainment for men to feel like men with no merit of their own. All Jersey was doing was pointing out how cheaply men use women to validate themselves. How sad it is that they do this to people who already have much to contend with. You attacked her for it, because as you said, its the easy thing to do. Sure, thinking about the implications of why they are working that job ruins the fun of going for you. But that is about your conscience, NOT Jersey's views. Why even post? You are arguing with her rather than the point.

If you were less of a sad individual, you would've left it at telling her she was being insecure. Instead you post ridiculous pic to continue to insult her. You hope to amuse others into joining you as though this discredits Jersey in some way.

You then make more assumptions about me without even contemplating how the insults you chose expose you even more as a shining example of example of the point she makes. You prove her argument with every post.

 

I wonder if sometimes men wish other men would shut up and stop making them look bad as a gender?

[sally4sara]

Unfortunately, the men whom you are trying to reach are not the men that you would want to be with, bed etc. just men whom you think or feel are susceptible to your cause - you're just trying to use them for your cause.

 

No man whose got a backbone and cajones (i.e. one you really respect) is going to receive and respect ultra-feminist beliefs, especially about porn and strippers.

 

Let each man decide for himself if he wants to look at porn and visit strip clubs. Again, I don't frequent them much - although I certainly would for a special occasion - but if they want to do so on a regular basis, I support them because it lets them kick back, relax and enjoy themselves.

 

And this is why progress is so slow. Real feminists wish to free men from the restrictions society places on them as well.

 

And I think that fact that I worked the job should bring some credibility to my beliefs. I see little wrong with going to a strip club and having a drink for your buddy or your own bachelor party. Walking in and shouting "Look at that hot bitches tits! Get that whore over here for a lap dance before he/I sign his/my dick away! Whooohoooo! I brought quarters! HAHAHA" is disgusting and more what the problem is than the guy who tagged along to help cover the costs and watch the stage show.

But helping cover the costs is contributing to the problem at large. I do not speak for Jersey, but a little acknowledgment of that difference is all the feminist movement I got in me.

A "real man" cannot understand that?

[You'reasian]

And this is why progress is so slow. Real feminists wish to free men from the restrictions society places on them as well.

 

And there you go assuming that a guy enjoying his time with porn or strip clubs restricts him.

 

And I think that fact that I worked the job should bring some credibility to my beliefs. I see little wrong with going to a strip club and having a drink for your buddy or your own bachelor party. Walking in and shouting "Look at that hot bitches tits! Get that whore over here for a lap dance before he/I sign his/my dick away! Whooohoooo! I brought quarters! HAHAHA" is disgusting and more what the problem is than the guy who tagged along to help cover the costs and watch the stage show.

But helping cover the costs is contributing to the problem at large. I do not speak for Jersey, but a little acknowledgment of that difference is all the feminist movement I got in me.

A "real man" cannot understand that?

 

I'm sure every person whose worked in the industry has their own experiences, unique to them. As far as the guy being loud and boisterous in the club - is on that guy - not anyone else on here in LS.

 

That behavior isn't just with males, but females too - when you ladies get together to have fun at the male review - you behave the same way, guaranteed. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

If you have a problem with guys going to strip clubs, then associate yourself with guys who don't. You're not going to convince anyone not to go.

 

I also think that you're downplaying your own consumption of feminst beliefs - as the line "men restrict themselves by going to strip clubs and looking at porn" - sounds like something that could have come straight from the mouth of Naomi Wolfe...

[sally4sara]

And there you go assuming that a guy enjoying his time with porn or strip clubs restricts him.

 

I did not say nor do I think a guy is restricted by enjoying his time in strip clubs. That was your assumption. You spoke of the feminist view in your post. I mention feminism only to show it in light of an interest in equality and that it can benefit men as well. I then go on to explain, again, my views on the thread topic.

 

I believe society restricts men and in ways that have very little to do with strip clubs. But now that you mention it, telling a guy he must go to a strip club to be a man could be restrictive to some men. Not at all what I said, but since you want to continue to focus on the feminist angle and its assumed application for this topic.

I personally feel a man can find other, more meritorious ways to define themselves as men. Strip clubs are largely illusion and for that reason probably don't really define men so well.

[sally4sara]

That behavior isn't just with males, but females too - when you ladies get together to have fun at the male review - you behave the same way, guaranteed. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

I have been to male reviews. It was like going to a comedy show. I did not feel is was sexually exciting. I did not treat the men performing as less than human, pieces of interchangable meat, or unworthy of respect for their occupation. I didn't even treat them as jokes though I found the concept comedic. Neither did my friends. We saw some very obese women being rude. I took it as they typically get shunned by men and here was some who couldn't run away.....they treated them horribly and seemingly as if out for revenge.

One of the two times I've gone, I went with some gay male friends..........their reaction to the performance was more of what you think women do at them.

[You'reasian]

 

I believe society restricts men and in ways that have very little to do with strip clubs. But now that you mention it, telling a guy he must go to a strip club to be a man could be restrictive to some men. .

 

No one tells a man that he has to go to a strip club to be a man. That's an assumption and maybe a projection from someone else. Most of my male friends don't go to strip clubs that often - a few do.

 

Personally, its not a huge issue for me and for my friends that don't go to strip clubs that often either - for the ones that do - that's their right to do so.

 

I personally feel a man can find other, more meritorious ways to define themselves as men. Strip clubs are largely illusion and for that reason probably don't really define men so well.

 

I don't know many guys that define themselves by the strip clubs they go to - even the ones that do - they go because they enjoy it.

 

Sounds like the only kinds of men you've associated with are not the kinds of guys that you'd like to be with. No offense, but maybe its time for a little self-reflection.

 

If the whole anti-porn/strip-club thing is not a personal one, maybe you could put the feminist writings down for a minute and do something fun instead.

[sally4sara]

No one tells a man that he has to go to a strip club to be a man.

If you care to take the time, there have been posts in this thread topic that show some people do believe this. And those that hold this view could be seen as being restrictive to men who o not feel the same way. So, no, I'm not assuming. I am going on previous posts.

 

That's an assumption and maybe a projection from someone else. Most of my male friends don't go to strip clubs that often - a few do.

 

Personally, its not a huge issue for me and for my friends that don't go to strip clubs that often either - for the ones that do - that's their right to do so.

 

I don't know many guys that define themselves by the strip clubs they go to - even the ones that do - they go because they enjoy it.

 

I think I explained with the above that I'm not claiming all men define themselves this way, but rather citing previous posts of people I do not know or associate with.

 

No offense' date=' but maybe its time for a little self-reflection.[/quote']

 

Maybe its time for a little self-reflection of your own as to why you think I am only going off ONLY what I think and not the points made BY OTHERS within this thread, why you want to make me doubt myself and my views, and why you think my points made in this thread should be disregarded because I am a feminist. I can have my views without being surrounded by nothing but big meanie men.

If I say some men and women think men going to strip clubs is defining to their masculinity, I say it because there are instances of people who say that within this very thread despite you thinking no one does that. Otherwise, it WOULD be an assumption.

[sally4sara]

If the whole anti-porn/strip-club thing is not a personal one, maybe you could put the feminist writings down for a minute and do something fun instead.

 

Can't. Its raining so I can go cycling or walking the dog. Law and Order is one I've seen a bunch so I turned the TV over to my son for Halo. I'm stuck in my video game of choice. It isn't my week "on" at the refugee shelter.

 

You're stuck with me.

[You'reasian]

I understand what you are saying but drug addicts do drugs because they enjoy it, alcoholics drink because they enjoy it, abusers abuse because they enjoy it and at some point all these people are defined by the very actions they enjoy doing.

 

Consuming porn and going to strip clubs, atleast as far as I can tell is consumption. Its not necessarily an addiction. Women consume porn too - if you drive by an adult store and see the inventory, I'd wager that a good portion of revenue comes from female purchases (and that's fine) - but apparently you don't want to make this an issue because it doesn't bode well for the classic feminist argument.

[You'reasian]

 

You're stuck with me.

 

Since I am single and I don't wear rings, that's a negative missy.