Lauriebell82 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I never said that but read the seperation and divorce and see for yourself why many men are afraid of making that commitment. Who the hell wants to start a family only to see it destroyed because your wife all of a sudden decides you are the source of all her problems? Just an excuse IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Our psychologist chided me for not getting a prenup, as I brought vastly disparate assets to the marriage. Fortunately, I was smart enough to keep my finances separate and get legal advice later. I've been around a few more years than Woggle and have a bit more experience with women in the business world and in my personal life. I'm still optimistic, but I have to validate his perspective. Just like when women make decisions based on emotion and those decisions are valid, a man choosing not to marry based of fear of losing his life's work and the security he built for himself is a real one. I've lived it and faced it. Now, I'll face a mountain of legal fees to preserve it, if I'm unfortunate. Would that color my future desire to be married? Absolutely. Would it prevent such an action? Not at all. I'd approach the action from a more informed and mature (life experience-wise) perspective. Laurie, as a counselor, you should be aware that invalidating emotions is counter-productive to achieving any sort of meaningful positive result. Emotions, like fear, in this case of being married, are real, regardless of whether or not you agree with their impetus or "reasons". Your emotions regarding same are just as valid. If it were you saying you don't want to get married for this or that reason and I knew the reasons didn't apply to me or didn't even apply generally in my opinion, does that make them less valid for you? Think about that. This is one area where women usually get real mad at me I know my wife did in MC. I'll add another reason why I wouldn't marry. Lack of empathy. That's a deal-breaker for me. I'm truly sorry to say I see a lot of that in women these days. I feel a lot of repressed anger in them. It's the main reason why we ended up in MC and why we'll likely divorce. Our psychologist called the dynamic disparate emotional perspectives. Fair enough Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Racheroo, you have to seriously decide what your life goals are. If it's a need, don't ignore it. Needs build resentment, if they're not met. This guy isn't telling you he's going to be ready for marriage in the future but not right now. He's telling you outright that he doesn't want to get married. Think long-term. How do you feel about having children with someone you're not married to? It appears to me that someone who's unwilling to ever get married has a fear of commitment. Anyone who has a fear of commitment, can and will pull the trigger when their freedoms are threatened. Don't fool yourself so you can remain in a relationship with this man. Push those softer emotions aside and take a good hard look at what you really need. If your needs are being met without marriage in the future, then all the best to you and your relationship happiness! Link to post Share on other sites
Lauriebell82 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Laurie, as a counselor, you should be aware that invalidating emotions is counter-productive to achieving any sort of meaningful positive result. Emotions, like fear, in this case of being married, are real, regardless of whether or not you agree with their impetus or "reasons". Your emotions regarding same are just as valid. If it were you saying you don't want to get married for this or that reason and I knew the reasons didn't apply to me or didn't even apply generally in my opinion, does that make them less valid for you? Think about that. This is one area where women usually get real mad at me I know my wife did in MC. While there are certain emotions that keep people from marrying, you still have to be real with them. Is it rationale to not want to get married due to the fear that your wife will end up hating you and taking all your money? No, because nobody would end up getting married if they thought like that. Plus, it's victim mentallity that someone is going to all of the sudden hate you for no reason you can explain. Sure, that could happen, but what men aren't aware of is that they PRECIPITATE the problem. They don't cause it, but they are part of it. I've seen enough divorced couples to know that it takes two to tango. I'll add another reason why I wouldn't marry. Lack of empathy. That's a deal-breaker for me. I'm truly sorry to say I see a lot of that in women these days. I feel a lot of repressed anger in them. It's the main reason why we ended up in MC and why we'll likely divorce. Our psychologist called the dynamic disparate emotional perspectives. Fair enough This is LS. Different form of counseling. It's more "advice giving" and not so much processing emotions. You usually don't call someone "clingy and desperate" in counseling. Repressed anger is something that usually happens as the result of past emotional turmoil, trauma, or hurt. The anger gets projected onto others unconciously in order to deal with the pain. Don't kid yourself though, men get it too. My boyfriend's ex-GF cheated on him, and when we first started dating he told me how much he resented her and how women who cheat are just manipulative liars. Lots of repressed anger there. So all I'm saying is that before men are too quick to pin divorce and hurt onto women, they should take a look at their own behavior as well. Why would a woman who is happy and loves her husband more than anything, suddenly end up hating him and wanting a divorce? Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Why would a woman who is happy and loves her husband more than anything, suddenly end up hating him and wanting a divorce? No idea. Because he never wanted to marry her and she "made" him? Link to post Share on other sites
Lauriebell82 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 No idea. Because he never wanted to marry her and she "made" him? That's his own darn fault then. You can't "make" anybody do anything. If you REALLY don't want to do something you just wouldn't do it. Addictive thinking!!! Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Yep, addicted to the sociopathic lies she imbued him with Your move Link to post Share on other sites
Lauriebell82 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Yep, addicted to the sociopathic lies she imbued him with Your move See this is the problem with men. They always have to think they are right. Who cares? I agree that marriage is scary, but again it DOES take two to tango. Men and woman both contribute to marital problems. If they didn't the divorce rate would be 25%. Link to post Share on other sites
electric_sheep Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 He may have some philosophical/ideological aversion to marriage. Does he believe in the idea of life-long partnership? This very idea itself has come under scrutiny by many people nowadays. If he believes in neither, and it's very important to you, then you'll have to decide just how important. Alternatively, you could try and convince him that these ideas are worthwhile. By the age of 42, you would think pragmatism would have finally triumphed over idealism, but you never know. If it's a money thing, ask him if he would marry you if you agreed to a prenuptial? In todays world, and given the statistics, even the most passionate and in love person could be somewhat excused for a little scepticism and cynicism, and want to cover their back. If all else fails, and if it's really important to you, you may just have to look elsewhere. There are plenty of guys who still believe in marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
chris250 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 A fear of marriage is very healthy. I think men should be scared of marriage. I am. There's worse things than being alone such as financial hardship from divorce court while someone else raises your kids. Men have no rights in marriage or in divorce. It is what it is. If I stay single then all I have to deal with is loneliness. That's ok. I'll still have lots of money in the bank to retire with. I don't know why many people think fear is always a sign of weakness. It is not. Fear is a protective emotion that often times keeps me from making stupid mistakes. Link to post Share on other sites
You'reasian Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 This, I would say, is it in a nutshell. I mean who wouldn't get sick and tired of rice if they had to eat it every day? It takes a special kind of person to be satisfied by their partner all the time, everytime - and most people can't develop or appreciate the kind of connection it takes to be with that partner in the long run - divorce is high. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This, I would say, is it in a nutshell. I mean who wouldn't get sick and tired of rice if they had to eat it every day? I've heard it better said as "who wants to eat the same home cooking every day?" to which I say "I will" with the stipulation she has to be a good cook and willing to learn new recipes. Link to post Share on other sites
Surfer Dude Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Racheroo, the right time for your man to get married... is never. Why would anyone want to get married? Marriage is a contrived business deal that is based on a legal contract between two people. How romantic! If two people are sharing something important like love, why would they need to please the society by getting married? Because they fear ostracism? This societal programming is pure garbage and you need to try and see past this. No one ever said two people can't enjoy being together, without such silly rules imposed by society. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'd say fathers getting the shaft in a divorce is another deterrent to men wanting to get married. Link to post Share on other sites
eclipseIDE Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 That's his own darn fault then. You can't "make" anybody do anything. If you REALLY don't want to do something you just wouldn't do it. Addictive thinking!!! So you would have no problem losing someone you really really loved if they told you you had to do something or lose them forever? This is why a lot of men get married because they dont want to lose the person. This is clearly demonstrated by threads on here with things like "He finally proprosed when I told him I was leaving lol Im so happy, he better buy me the ring I deserve" Link to post Share on other sites
eclipseIDE Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You seem very confrontational. Are you okay? I'm getting married because I love my fiance to death and he makes me want to be a better person. By the same token, I do not agree with women being in relationships with men that take them for granted. It sounds like Rancheroo's man doesn't care about her very much. Why should she waste more time? She can get on another bus, maybe one that's better for her too. Confrontational? how? you mean like asking if I completed grade 3? Also Im doing great, thanks for your concern. Why do they take them for granted if they dont marry them? Do they treat them bad? If they do would getting married fix that? Why dont you ask Rancheroo if it seems like her boyfriend cares about her instead of assuming? Link to post Share on other sites
Surfer Dude Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 By the same token, I do not agree with women being in relationships with men that take them for granted. It sounds like Rancheroo's man doesn't care about her very much. Why should she waste more time? She can get on another bus, maybe one that's better for her too. Just because someone gives no meaning to an anti-romantic legal contract called marriage, he suddenly doesn't care about his woman? Where are you getting this nonsense? Societal brainwashing at it's worst. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Racheroo Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Why dont you ask Rancheroo if it seems like her boyfriend cares about her instead of assuming? My boyfriend cares deeply about me and would do anything (well almost anything clearly) for me. He does love me with his whole heart, he makes that evident every day. Link to post Share on other sites
IrishCarBomb Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Emotions, like fear, in this case of being married, are real, regardless of whether or not you agree with their impetus or "reasons". Your emotions regarding same are just as valid. If it were you saying you don't want to get married for this or that reason and I knew the reasons didn't apply to me or didn't even apply generally in my opinion, does that make them less valid for you? Think about that. An excellent point. Link to post Share on other sites
electric_sheep Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Emotions, like fear, in this case of being married, are real, regardless of whether or not you agree with their impetus or "reasons". Your emotions regarding same are just as valid. If it were you saying you don't want to get married for this or that reason and I knew the reasons didn't apply to me or didn't even apply generally in my opinion, does that make them less valid for you? I'm increasingly of the opinion that this kind of thinking can cause more trouble that good. This comes from personal experience. It certainly goes without saying that everyones emotions are always valid, in the sense that they are personal experiences. Sometimes the emotions stem from a realistic and healthy perspective and sometimes not... either way the feeling or the emotion is still admittedly valid. The question becomes, do you want to involve yourself with someone who let's the ephemeral and fickle world of emotions guide their behavior? For that matter, do you yourself want to be at the whim of your emotions? I think it may be better if more solid and constant forces are the guiding force behind ones life... things like conviction, values, and goals. Not values in some cheesy sense, but values in a literal sense... things one has decided matter to them. If lifelong commitment matters to this man, he thinks he has found the right person, and he still wont get married, then he is letting fear and anxiety guide his life and not conviction. Just like an addict engages in his addiction to avoid the pain of his personal experiences. In psychobabble this is referred to as experiential avoidance. In trying to avoid one form of pain (fear and anxiety surrounding marriage) you amplify another form of pain (never achieving your goal of finding a lifelong partner). Sadly, I've spent much of my life doing this. Anyway, what the OP needs to figure out is if her bf "thinks he has found the right person". It's a delicate matter trying to decide when and if to push this point, because, as has been pointed out, there are legitimate fears. Sounds like some soul searching is in order. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The question becomes, do you want to involve yourself with someone who let's the ephemeral and fickle world of emotions guide their behavior? For that matter, do you yourself want to be at the whim of your emotions? I think it may be better if more solid and constant forces are the guiding force behind ones life... things like conviction, values, and goals. Not values in some cheesy sense, but values in a literal sense... things one has decided matter to them. Yes, this is the essence of compatibility. MC taught me not to judge others by the standards I set for myself, rather to accept their perspective as their truth and decide whether it is compatible with my own. I can say categorically that I know now that my wife's fear of intimacy on the level I desired in a marriage is valid, and likely not an issue for the majority of her lifelong interactions. It's merely incompatible with my own perspective of and expectations for what an intimate relationship is supposed to be. Are my expectations unreasonable? We examined that and, for sure, from her perspective, they are. I disagree. The work was to discover whether we could bend to find a healthy compromise that we can both live with. IMO, emotions are powerful motivators. Intellect and life experience shape and mold that energy into actions and behaviors. Some are healthy and some are unhealthy. None of us is perfect. To deny those emotions and their power in our lives, IMO, is to not have lived Like I said in another post, ride the bear or the bear will eat you. Link to post Share on other sites
Alma Mobley Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 CAn someone please shed some light on this? It seems men and women's views on marriage can be so different? I have been withmy b/f for 2 years now, he is 42 I am 33. When we first met, it was quite clear he was anti marriage, but as our relationship has developed he has said a few things that have offered a glimmer of hope to me, i.e. the next time you will meet my parents again will be at your wedding, or, do you like diamonds, or, if I ever was going to get married it would be with you...is it wrong for me to have thought he was warming up to the marriage idea? We met some friends we had not seen for a few months and the first thing they said, are you married yet? This led to THE conversation, which resulted in him saying, I am sure there are many men out there that would marry you but I am not one of them. I am stunned. I love him with every fibre of my being, he says he has not loved anyone the way he loves me. But without him showing the world that he wants to be my life partner, where am I? I can only conclude that he thinks there is a flaw in our relationship that a marriage would make difficult to undo in teh form of a divorce. He thinks I am beautiful, sexy, a good homemaker, funny, supportive, intelligent and he said he will never get a better offer than me. Then what is wrong? I really do not know whether I should invest more of me into this if he thinks it will break one day anyway...Any advice? I don't think this has anything to do with what men think vs women on the marriage issue, but it has a lot to do with your own relationship. You knew he was anti-marriage when you got involved with him. Men (people) say a lot of things sometimes, but you shouldn't read too much into it. If marriage is important to you, you should probably think about leaving, as this guy doesn't sound like he wants it. However, if you are okay with staying him, possibly even having kids with him, without marriage, then stay. Also, yeah, the leaving part is easier said than done, but you have only invested two years. Some women waste 11 or more years waiting for a marriage proposal! Just do what you think is right for YOU. Link to post Share on other sites
electric_sheep Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Yes, this is the essence of compatibility. MC taught me not to judge others by the standards I set for myself, rather to accept their perspective as their truth and decide whether it is compatible with my own. I can say categorically that I know now that my wife's fear of intimacy on the level I desired in a marriage is valid, and likely not an issue for the majority of her lifelong interactions. It's merely incompatible with my own perspective of and expectations for what an intimate relationship is supposed to be. Are my expectations unreasonable? We examined that and, for sure, from her perspective, they are. I disagree. The work was to discover whether we could bend to find a healthy compromise that we can both live with. IMO, emotions are powerful motivators. Intellect and life experience shape and mold that energy into actions and behaviors. Some are healthy and some are unhealthy. None of us is perfect. To deny those emotions and their power in our lives, IMO, is to not have lived Like I said in another post, ride the bear or the bear will eat you. That's probably some of the best relationship advice I've ever heard. It's only the last paragraph that makes me cautious... attempts to struggle and manipulate my emotions have caused me a great deal of sorrow over the years, as has letting some emotions, such as fear, play too big a role in guiding my life. I totally agree that emotions give life it's meaning and depth though, and being true to them, and deriving wisdom from them (without letting them trample you, or dictate your life), is probably the path to contentment. It's a bit of a tight-rope walk... trying to get those emotions to work for you and not against you. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Just because someone gives no meaning to an anti-romantic legal contract called marriage, he suddenly doesn't care about his woman? Where are you getting this nonsense? Societal brainwashing at it's worst. Funny enough no one wants to take up the fight on that comment. Hmmmm. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Is socialization brainwashing? Is peer pressure brainwashing? Is societal conformance pressure brainwashing? IMO, as an philosophical anarchist, sure I rail against authority, law and norm of any sort. I chose what to embrace and what to eschew and respect the choices of others. In the quote, the lady wants to get married and the boyfriend doesn't. The dynamic has nothing to do with caring, rather the psychology and perspective of the individuals. They can care about each other greatly and still disagree on this one area of relationships. If the disagreement is irresolvable, and neither party can bend enough to achieve a positive and healthy outcome, then they can weigh that negative versus the positives of caring and decides what's best for each of their interests. It's the essence of compatibility. For example, if my wife, having been married and divorced twice, had not wanted to get married when I proposed to her, and wanted to remain as an unmarried couple, I would have had a hard time with that and, wanting children within a marital union (my perspective), I likely would have bid her farewell in favor of someone more compatible, regardless of how much I "cared". I made that choice (to be married) freely, accepting the legal commitment, without prejudice or pressure from anyone (family, church, friends, etc). I looked at the options and made a choice. This is what the BF did, in the case of the quote. He chose to care but remain unmarried. That's a healthy choice, for him. For the GF, apparently, not so healthy. They each had/have to decide what their priorities are in the areas of compatibility and what role this dynamic plays in that order of priority. It's unique to them. In another thread, a lady broke off an engagement because the fiance hadn't made firm plans nor secured the requisite ring, but chose to remain living with him and in a relationship with him. She thought my opinion on that matter to be judgemental (it was), as I was incredulous why someone who wanted to get married would not "break up" with someone who apparently didn't want to get married (wasn't making positive steps) even after breaking an engagement. So, there you go...another option and scenario. Add a few billion more and you have a world Link to post Share on other sites
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