carhill Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 No, actually it doesn't. You explained how she wouldn't support you in your caring for your mother. (She totally dropped the ball on that, in my book, BTW!!) But it doesn't answer my original question, when I asked you to explain what you meant by your "generosity warping her independence." Answers!! I want answers!!:D But of course you are under no obligation to oblige me. I will endeavor to do so, but first I must warp her independence some more by working on her new house today. I'll re-visit again this evening Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 A woman who claims that she's independent is a big red flag to me. It's the same as someone who claims to be confident, smart or beautiful. A good relationship is one that involves two people whose expectations are a good fit. Such expectations come with a certain level of dependency and it is up to the individuals to determine what they want from the relationship. Those who claim loud and clear that they are independent, strong and resourceful are most times the most incapable people. Link to post Share on other sites
Author OpenBook Posted January 1, 2009 Author Share Posted January 1, 2009 A woman who claims that she's independent is a big red flag to me. Interesting. Then I bet you're seeing red flags all over the place here in this thread! :bunny: (too bad they don't have a little red-flag icon down here...) Those who claim loud and clear that they are independent, strong and resourceful are most times the most incapable people. And I know a ton of single women who are living in direct contradiction to that. Link to post Share on other sites
birdie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 A woman who claims that she's independent is a big red flag to me. It's the same as someone who claims to be confident, smart or beautiful. A good relationship is one that involves two people whose expectations are a good fit. Such expectations come with a certain level of dependency and it is up to the individuals to determine what they want from the relationship. Those who claim loud and clear that they are independent, strong and resourceful are most times the most incapable people. I don't see how that follows. Sometimes people are self-aware and are able to recognise their qualities - as well as faults. Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I don't see how that follows. Sometimes people are self-aware and are able to recognise their qualities - as well as faults. Beauty, intelligence, independence... all qualities that can be acknowledged by others but should not be self proclaimed. Imagine having dinner with someone who throws in a couple of lines such as "I'm quite beautiful" and "I'm a really smart person" into the conversation. Major turn off and big sign of insecurity. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 My definition of an "independent" woman is simple: a girl who wants me, not needs me. IMO, an independent woman wants a guy to be with her and to explore life with her. A dependent woman is usually looking to be 'saved' from something (bad family, lack of stimulus, financial situation, whatever). Most guys don't have a problem being a white knight; we just don't like it as a full-time job. I totally agree. Same goes for an independent man. He needs nothing from me that he doesn't already have or could get elsewhere. But...he wants to be with me, for all of me, which doesn't mean that I or he has to be perfect. We just have to be "right" for each other. Link to post Share on other sites
birdie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Beauty, intelligence, independence... all qualities that can be acknowledged by others but should not be self proclaimed. Imagine having dinner with someone who throws in a couple of lines such as "I'm quite beautiful" and "I'm a really smart person" into the conversation. Major turn off and big sign of insecurity. not at all. it may be a sign of arrogance but it doesn't mean it's not true Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 not at all. it may be a sign of arrogance but it doesn't mean it's not true Arrogance, insecurity, call it whatever you want. Still a big turn off that usually means the box is empty. Link to post Share on other sites
birdie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Arrogance, insecurity, call it whatever you want. Still a big turn off that usually means the box is empty. I don't think that arrogance and insecurity are the same thing. agree to differ I suppose Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I don't think that arrogance and insecurity are the same thing. agree to differ I suppose Arrogance is often the symptom of insecurity. The most attractive people are those who keep it low profile and leave it to others to acknowledge their qualities. Link to post Share on other sites
BCCA Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I totally agree. Same goes for an independent man. He needs nothing from me that he doesn't already have or could get elsewhere. But...he wants to be with me, for all of me, which doesn't mean that I or he has to be perfect. We just have to be "right" for each other. Couldnt have said it better, for either men or women. Link to post Share on other sites
BentSpine Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Independent woman? No way! I want to connect emotionally with my partner. I quickly pass on a woman who decribes herself as strong or independent: I want a woman who cares and hopes, and has no qualms about showing me her grief if her wish isn't met as soon as she wishes. Stiff upper lip is a turn-off. As the same time it feels reassuring for anyone if their partner doesn't have a meltdown if they don't get their way each time. I'm with JoeNewbie above. There are many words that are better left for others to describe you with, let me add to the list: mature, committed. I need pu$$y from my partner, sooner or later. That's something that I don't have myself so I will need it from someone else. Link to post Share on other sites
Author OpenBook Posted January 1, 2009 Author Share Posted January 1, 2009 I need pu$$y from my partner, sooner or later. That's something that I don't have myself so I will need it from someone else. Ah, how romantic! [OpenBook swoons] It's so nice to feel needed. I quickly pass on a woman who decribes herself as strong or independent: I want a woman who cares and hopes, and has no qualms about showing me her grief if her wish isn't met as soon as she wishes. Stiff upper lip is a turn-off. As the same time it feels reassuring for anyone if their partner doesn't have a meltdown if they don't get their way each time. Ok then, stay between grief and a meltdown. Got it. But wait... what is your definition of "grief" and "meltdown" -- and is it different from another guy's definition?? I guess you have to get to know the guy and what all his definitions are. Tiptoe thru the landmines. Do you see what I'm getting at here?? Link to post Share on other sites
BCCA Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Independent woman? No way! I want to connect emotionally with my partner. I quickly pass on a woman who decribes herself as strong or independent: I want a woman who cares and hopes, and has no qualms about showing me her grief if her wish isn't met as soon as she wishes. Stiff upper lip is a turn-off. As the same time it feels reassuring for anyone if their partner doesn't have a meltdown if they don't get their way each time. I'm with JoeNewbie above. There are many words that are better left for others to describe you with, let me add to the list: mature, committed. I need pu$$y from my partner, sooner or later. That's something that I don't have myself so I will need it from someone else. So you cant connect with someone who is independent? Only with a spineless girl, who NEEDS you to survive and looks to you to take care of her? I would much rather an independent girl who told me whats up without breaking down into tears. If she feels I deserve to get yelled at, and has a 'meltdown', then perhaps I really pissed her off and should reconsider what I did next time. I think everyone is entitled to get mad when their partner does something to frustrate them. I like that you said mature and committed, then went on about how you really just need some tail. So, a girl should be mature and committed enough to put out, but dependent enough not to bother you with her petty problems? Got it. I'm sure there is a line out front of your house, full of hot women, isnt there? Do you give coaching sessions? Good god... Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 So you cant connect with someone who is independent? Only with a spineless girl, who NEEDS you to survive and looks to you to take care of her? I would much rather an independent girl who told me whats up without breaking down into tears. If she feels I deserve to get yelled at, and has a 'meltdown', then perhaps I really pissed her off and should reconsider what I did next time. I think everyone is entitled to get mad when their partner does something to frustrate them. I like that you said mature and committed, then went on about how you really just need some tail. So, a girl should be mature and committed enough to put out, but dependent enough not to bother you with her petty problems? Got it. I'm sure there is a line out front of your house, full of hot women, isnt there? Do you give coaching sessions? Good god... I like your style BCCA! Well said! Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Imagine having dinner with someone who throws in a couple of lines such as "I'm quite beautiful" and "I'm a really smart person" into the conversation. Nobody does that so that's a silly example. I think it's a totally different thing to say you are independent. I have one girfriend in particular that is extremely independent she NEEDS to tell men that because she really does her own thing and needs a man who will be cool with that. Otherwise they become needy and clingy. I am a much milder version of that, I love my space, and though I am extremely outgoing and love being in social circles I love my alone time too, I need a good balance of the two, and that would make it incompatible with certain types of guys. I have no problem expressing how I am in the early stages since some men are strictly homebodies and others are stricly social butterflies and would be offended if I decided I need to take a night off for myself or if I go to dinner with friends I won't have to hear "really why do you need to go out to dinner with friends?" (my last guy would actually ask me that he could not wrap his head around why I would need a night off to do my own thing) So that would make me a braggart if I uttered the words "I am quite independent"? You are getting caught up in the colloquial expression of the word and associating it to some feminist mantra when in reality it is simply expressing what type of lifestyle one leads. I don't know why you find it so offensive that someone would say they are independent, you see it as "bragging" It's not bragging it's trying to let a person know your style so that you can find common ground. Intelligence or beauty is something we have no control over (to a certain extend we do but not so much) and more than likely won't change with time, but independence is a self made quality, one like saying, "I am into motorbikes" Wouldn't you want to share that you are into motorbikes early on in a rel so that your partner knows that your activity might consume some of your time? And I disagree that people who say that are the complete opposite, some people are what they say they are time tells all. Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Nobody does that so that's a silly example. I agree it's an extreme case but people actually do that, which is just an extrapolation of milder behaviours. I like a woman who just acts as an independent woman and does not feel the need to claim it. I'm not trying to convince anyone but it is my perception that those who feel the need to claim their independence are unnecessarily bold about it. And when people are too bold about something, it usually hides something else, but let's not get into that. I find subtle individuals to be more balanced and better people to hang out with, whether as friends or, more importantly, in a relationship. Then again, I'm not suggesting that those who are different are wrong, I'm only saying that I do not appreciate such bold behaviours. Link to post Share on other sites
BCCA Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Fair enough Joe, you like what you like. To each their own. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I agree it's an extreme case but people actually do that, which is just an extrapolation of milder behaviours. I find subtle individuals to be more balanced and better people to hang out with, whether as friends or, more importantly, in a relationship. Though I agree that it's an extreme case, I also find subtle individuals to be passive agressive and untrustworthy with low self esteem, and not to mention extremely boring. It's funny the definitions we create in our minds isn't it? In all seriousness, it's all semantics JoeNewbie. I think you should explore why you have such a point of contention with people who say they are independent and I'll explore why I feel the need to be "bold" See you at the mid point. Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Though I agree that it's an extreme case, I also find subtle individuals to be passive agressive and untrustworthy with low self esteem, and not to mention extremely boring. It's funny the definitions we create in our minds isn't it? In all seriousness, it's all semantics JoeNewbie. I think you should explore why you have such a point of contention with people who say they are independent and I'll explore why I feel the need to be "bold" See you at the mid point. I think subtlety comes with time and maturity and unlike you I think it's a big sign of maturity. Notice the difference in behaviour between a young executive and a seasoned veteran in a business environment. The immature person feels the need to show off (I've been there myself) while the more mature person is confident enough about their qualities to let other people discover them (I'm slowly getting there...). I also notice the same kind of dynamics when I'm on a date with a younger woman (she thinks she's subtle although I see her coming from miles away) versus a more experienced woman (she doesn't need to tell me she's strong, I can feel it from across the table...). I'm at an age where I have dealings with a broad variety of people, from all kinds of social backgrounds and age groups. I can also date a 20 year old or a 40 year old. The differences are very compelling. To me, someone who is too bold sounds like someone who is trying really hard to proove a point. And that, to me, is a huge turn off. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I think subtlety comes with time and maturity and unlike you I think it's a big sign of maturity. Notice the difference in behaviour between a young executive and a seasoned veteran in a business environment. The immature person feels the need to show off (I've been there myself) while the more mature person is confident enough about their qualities to let other people discover them (I'm slowly getting there...). I also notice the same kind of dynamics when I'm on a date with a younger woman (she thinks she's subtle although I see her coming from miles away) versus a more experienced woman (she doesn't need to tell me she's strong, I can feel it from across the table...). I'm at an age where I have dealings with a broad variety of people, from all kinds of social backgrounds and age groups. I can also date a 20 year old or a 40 year old. The differences are very compelling. To me, someone who is too bold sounds like someone who is trying really hard to proove a point. And that, to me, is a huge turn off. So basically what you are trying to do now? Wow now there is a deep revelation, imagine that? A 20 yr old woman that thinks she has life figured out and acts as if she does when clearly she doesn't, is compellingly different than a 40 yr old woman? WOW! How do you discover such of life's truths? Newbie, most of sound of mind would instinctually know that the differences between a 20 and a 40 yr old woman are glaringly obvious. Sorry to rain on your parade of revelations. Independece is not a virtue it is a way of life. If you can't speak freely of your way of life then really what confidence can a person have in knowing that the person truly knows where they stand? I think you give too much importance to something that otherwise doesn't have that much importance, something about that makes you feel threatened and I think you should sincerely explore why that is. Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 So basically what you are trying to do now? Wow now there is a deep revelation, imagine that? A 20 yr old woman that thinks she has life figured out and acts as if she does when clearly she doesn't, is compellingly different than a 40 yr old woman? WOW! How do you discover such of life's truths? Newbie, most of sound of mind would instinctually know that the differences between a 20 and a 40 yr old woman are glaringly obvious. Sorry to rain on your parade of revelations. Independece is not a virtue it is a way of life. If you can't speak freely of your way of life then really what confidence can a person have in knowing that the person truly knows where they stand? I think you give too much importance to something that otherwise doesn't have that much importance, something about that makes you feel threatened and I think you should sincerely explore why that is. Enough with your sarcasm. I gave clear cut examples just to make it easier to understand. Just keep being yourself and think about this conversation again in 10 years. Link to post Share on other sites
BentSpine Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 So you cant connect with someone who is independent? Read again more carefully, and you'll notice that I wrote "describes themselves as independent". I happen to believe that someone who takes pride in being independent does so by not attaching to other's, by caring less about other's. So no, I can't connect with someone who doesn't care about me. I like that you said mature and committed, then went on about how you really just need some tail. You misunderstood me. Mature, committed were only additional examples of words, besides strong and independent, that are best left to describe someone else, not oneself. I'm sure there is a line out front of your house, full of hot women, isnt there? Bugger! So what am I doing in your mum's bed!? Do you give coaching sessions? To you I would, but... (see my romantic conclusion above.) Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I gave clear cut examples just to make it easier to understand. Just keep being yourself and think about this conversation again in 10 years. No you didn't you compared apples and oranges to bring your point home but it didn't work. Yeah sure in the 10 yrs I'll be thinking of you and this conversation. In an hour I will. Link to post Share on other sites
JoeNewbie Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 No you didn't you compared apples and oranges to bring your point home but it didn't work. That's because you lack the intellectual resources to understand the analogies. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites
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