Taramere Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Why can't you let the parents know? Why can't you give your professional word of advice to them? I know no parent wants to hear they are doing a bad job but when outsiders are seeing the negative changes in a child and how they socialize because of this I think it's fair to reach out, no? What if the outsiders observing these negative changes in a child aren't parents themselves? Dare they air their concerns, or should they just keep quiet on the basis that they haven't really got a clue? Marlena made a comment about some people placing too much pressure on their children early on - due to their own competitiveness, it would seem. Their own need to prove that their child is better than everyone else's. Walked at an earlier age, talked at an earlier age, read at an earlier age... You're agreeing with Marlena, and you're using her post as a hook for an anecdote about a working mother whose child is turning, in your view, into a monster. Do you not see what you're doing there? You are tearing that kid apart as being some nightmarish, attention-seeking monster. Are you certain that you're perceiving that child in a fair and balanced manner - or could it be that you're transferring some of your negative feelings about the mother (a working mother) onto her? You've already held up your niece as an example of a child being unusually far ahead in her reading, as a result of her mother making the kind of choices that you think mothers should make. Marlena's point was about competitive parents using their children as part of the one upmanship game they continually engage in with other people. Adults who can't detach themselves from the need to be best at everything and right about everything, and who therefore place undue pressure on children who don't need to be dragged into that kind of crap. From your posts, I would predict that if you become a mother that is exactly the kind of mother you'll be. Of course people can't look into a crystal ball and present guarantees about the kind of parents they or other people would make...but a bit of awareness and realistic (as opposed to continually self-aggrandising or flattering) examination of your own and other people's behaviour can give them a fairly decent idea I would think. As can experience of dealing with children and gauging the ability to maintain authority and credibility.... and to manage some of the unique stresses that dealing with children's more challenging behaviour bring.
marlena Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 So are you a teacher Mar? I bet you see it all. Yes, I am and I do see it all. I see happy children and miserable children, I see retarded children and children wth special needs, brilliant children and the slow learners, dyslexic children and children with Asperger's, shy children and outgoing children, children with divorced parents, children with drug addict parents, children who are loved and accepted, children whose parents drive them over the edge with their impossible demands for excellence,children who are on the verge of a nervous breakdown at eight and on and on it goes...the list is endless. A job that requires a great deal of patience and love of children for sure. Why can't you let the parents know? Why can't you give your professional word of advice to them? Oh, I do let them now. I am very careful to word what I have to say carefully so as not to incur their rage or offend them in any way. It takes a great deal of diplomacy. Marlena made a comment about some people placing too much pressure on their children early on - due to their own competitiveness, it would seem. Their own need to prove that their child is better than everyone else's. Walked at an earlier age, talked at an earlier age, read at an earlier age... Yes, this is true. Parents who place extreme pressure on their children to excel are they, themselves, highy competitive, if not down right antagonistic, and have that "keeping up with the Jones's" mentality. No child can be better than theirs. They tend to see their children, not as separate individuals, but rather as an extension of themselves. Failing or succeeding to them becomes a personal matter. And they come from all walks in life but it is true that the nouveau riche have this mentality to a greater extent. More to the point of this thread, I have also noticed that the mothers who do not work tend to stress and fret over their children much more than mothers who also have a life outside the home. Perhaps being in constant contact with their children makes them over-protective and over-sensitive or perhaps it gives them a much needed raison-d'etre, a mission in life.
Taramere Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Yes, this is true. Parents who place extreme pressure on their children to excel are they, themselves, highy competitive, if not down right antagonistic, and have that "keeping up with the Jones's" mentality. No child can be better than theirs. They tend to see their children, not as separate individuals, but rather as an extension of themselves. Failing or succeeding to them becomes a personal matter. And they come from all walks in life but it is true that the nouveau riche have this mentality to a greater extent. More to the point of this thread, I have also noticed that the mothers who do not work tend to stress and fret over their children much more than mothers who also have a life outside the home. Perhaps being in constant contact with their children makes them over-protective and over-sensitive or perhaps it gives them a much needed raison-d'etre, a mission in life. Right. This struck home with me, because it reminded me of certain school-friends' mothers when I was a kid. Well meaning ladies who would fuss around me like mother hens when I went round to play with my friends. It was nice enough, until I got to the age of about 11...and then I sensed some other agenda there. Possibly because I picked up some irritation from my mother about their behaviour. Also because one (not very bright) mother made it clear that she felt sorry for me because my mother "had to" work full time. I couldn't see why she would regard that as a problem, but she evidently did. I had a close friend in the same position (full time working mother), and between us we would talk about this particular mother and her discomfitingly motherly and protective attitude towards us. I think we both felt this weird sense of disloyalty towards our own mothers when she behaved like that. We also both thought that this lady was nice but a bit silly in that she got overly embroiled in our games, squabbles etc rather than just leaving us to it. Again, probably a view we picked up from our mothers....but one that was compounded by our own little chats and our observations of the woman's behaviour/comments when we went round there. Children definitely do pick up on the prejudices and agendas of the adults around them...and I think that "picking things up" process becomes particularly strong round about the age of 11 to 12. A polite child is never going to challenge an adult's "poor you...mother working....let me fuss over you" attitude, but it doesn't mean they like it and agree with it. I'd add that there definitely doesn't always need to be that kind of conflict between SAHM and working mothers. My own mother's best friend was a lovely lady who never worked after getting married and having children. I've no idea what her views on working mothers were, but if they were in any way negative (and I doubt they were) I certainly didn't pick up on them as a child. Couldn't always say the same about some of the others, though.
blind_otter Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 I wonder if attorneys can legitimately ever work from home? I do on sick days, but for the majority of the time? Hmm. I know lots of women who "work from home," but I've never really understood how that works exactly... What professions allow that? (I'm being serious. I want to know - for future reference.) I have a friend who does wills, estates, trusts and probate - she works from home 3 days a week and then comes to the office to meet with clients and such 2 days a week. She's trying for a baby right now.
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Well one thing I think we can agree on is that there are crappy SAH mothers just the same as there are crappy working moms. On that I think we can agree.
ColorCube Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Well one thing I think we can agree on Not on this thread
marlena Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Well one thing I think we can agree on is that there are crappy SAH mothers just the same as there are crappy working moms. On that I think we can agree. Yes, I agree. There are crappy and good mothers on both sides of the fence. That much is most definitely true.
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Yes, I agree. There are crappy and good mothers on both sides of the fence. That much is most definitely true. Yes, I agree with that too. We've all seen both kinds, whether they are at home or not. All any of us as parents can do is give our best..whether we're working or whether we're SAHs.
marlena Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 All any of us as parents can do is give our best..whether we're working or whether we're SAHs. This is how I see it as well. All we can do is our very best. If we do that, then, I think chances are that our children will grow up to be fine adults.
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Not on this thread Haha! No but really...I think that IS one thing we can all agree on here. That's something, right? (claws and fangs retracted here. )
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 This is how I see it as well. All we can do is our very best. If we do that, then, I think chances are that our children will grow up to be fine adults. Very true. And you know what? Even with our best efforts, some kids will grow up and make bad choices. Some of it is really out of our control. You see it all the time in a family where there are 2 or more siblings and some of them turn out fine and others not so fine. We can all only do our very best. Just like most of our parents did for us.
marlena Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Even with our best efforts, some kids will grow up and make bad choices. Some of it is really out of our control. Holding on to this thought is also very important for, yes, it's true that some things are definitely beyond our control for there are myriads of influences at work on a growing child. However, I believe that if we pay close attention to their needs right from an early age, if we keep a watchful eye over them and guide them with our wisdom and love, then even if they do make a bad choice, they know that they can always rely on us to help them through those rough times. A parent's work is NEVER done.
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Holding on to this thought is also very important for, yes, it's true that some things are definitely beyond our control for there are myriads of influences at work on a growing child. However, I believe that if we pay close attention to their needs right from an early age, if we keep a watchful eye over them and guide them with our wisdom and love, then even if they do make a bad choice, they know that they can always rely on us to help them through those rough times. A parent's work is NEVER done. Well said, Marlena. Very true. It's an important job. And a really tough one sometimes. We're dealing with a pre-teen...almost a teenager (he'll be 13 in April) and he's changing right before our very eyes. We as parents have to constantly change and adapt our parenting. What worked with him at 8 is not going to work at 13. We have to start giving him a little more independence. At this age they really have a mind of their own (although he always has..the little bugger:laugh:) Anyway, it's tough at times. What do you teach Marlena? (If you don't mind my asking.)
marlena Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 What do you teach Marlena? (If you don't mind my asking.) No, not at all. I am an English teacher in a non-English speaking country. I have taught elementary level, secondary level and even University level. I have years and years of experience. Their early teens are most definitely a trying time... a time of enormous changes, both physical and emotional. It is during his/her puberty years that what you have taught your child so far, the groundwork you have laid so to speak, will be put to the test. Being there, keeping a close but unobtrusive eye, is crucial as it is at this time that peer pressure (and their hormones) will lead them to act in ways that are often times confusing and damaging. It's the beginning of the letting-go period and that takes a lot of adjusting to as well. My daughter is twenty -four and I still can't believe that she's flown the coop! One thing I know though and it is comforting, is that she has flown away but she has a lot of good ammo under her wings to face whatever challenges life may have in store for her. And that's the best we can do, prepare them fully well for their adult life.
Tomcat33 Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 What if the outsiders observing these negative changes in a child aren't parents themselves? Dare they air their concerns, or should they just keep quiet on the basis that they haven't really got a clue? Well it depends if they are professionals in charge of children when the parents are not around or adults that are in contact with the children frequently and can see the signs of what is happening to the kids then I absolutely don't see why not. Though that still doesn't guarantee the observations will be well received putting out there from a trusted source is still going to be a consideration. If they are none of the above then who gives a crap what anyone thinks about your parenting style, you are the parent, you know best is usually the attitude. Marlena made a comment about some people placing too much pressure on their children early on - due to their own competitiveness, it would seem. Their own need to prove that their child is better than everyone else's. Walked at an earlier age, talked at an earlier age, read at an earlier age... You're agreeing with Marlena, and you're using her post as a hook for an anecdote about a working mother whose child is turning, in your view, into a monster. Do you not see what you're doing there? You are tearing that kid apart as being some nightmarish, attention-seeking monster. Are you certain that you're perceiving that child in a fair and balanced manner - or could it be that you're transferring some of your negative feelings about the mother (a working mother) onto her? Yeah I did hook to an anecdote that I meant to comment on earlier on. Her post is EXACTLY what I have observed in this girl, of course it is not fair to the child neither is having to press her the way her mother is pressing her and I have seen the transformation of a happy go-lucky two year old from a spoiled attention grabbing needy little child. This child has changed significantly in the last year and it just so happens mommy is no longer around and the kid's weekly calendar schedule involves a different activity pretty much every single day PLUS a nanny who handles her most of the time. This is precisely what I base my idea on when I think that hands on mothers are better than those that are disengaged and trying to overcompensate trying to be the BEST mom but doing so in ways that are via external pressures from activities and classes and not so much by just "being" with their kids. And yeah OF COURSE I am using her and other children like her to demonstrate my point, do you want me to make stuff up and use anecdotes of children that don't fit the description of what I am saying to discredit my own point?!?!? I DO see what I am doing, do you? You've already held up your niece as an example of a child being unusually far ahead in her reading, as a result of her mother making the kind of choices that you think mothers should make. Marlena's point was about competitive parents using their children as part of the one upmanship game they continually engage in with other people. Adults who can't detach themselves from the need to be best at everything and right about everything, and who therefore place undue pressure on children who don't need to be dragged into that kind of crap. Well she is unusually ahead, what can I say. I am more blown away by this fact than anything else. But moreso than being ahead she is a very happy child and well adjusted who rarely cries of fusses, her brother was the same way this is something I did see in the baby who's mom decided to get back to work and go overdrive in terms of her ambitions, but that I no longer see now. My niece's parents are normal "simple" people they are grounded and laid back extremely loving family oriented people and totally devoted to their kids, so I EVEN brought up the reading thing because that is one of the many pluses of being a stay home mom. The kind of quality time a mother can devote to her babies in a day of multi chores and non stop demands, is really priceless and the possibilities are truly endless in terms of how you choose to devote that time. They are strapped financially at times but it is a good trade off for what matters to them most, their kids From your posts, I would predict that if you become a mother that is exactly the kind of mother you'll be. Of course people can't look into a crystal ball and present guarantees about the kind of parents they or other people would make...but a bit of awareness and realistic (as opposed to continually self-aggrandising or flattering) examination of your own and other people's behaviour can give them a fairly decent idea I would think. As can experience of dealing with children and gauging the ability to maintain authority and credibility.... and to manage some of the unique stresses that dealing with children's more challenging behaviour bring. Well she is unusually ahead, what can I say. I am more blown away by this fact than anything else because her brother was not exposed to this method of learning so its more a novelty to me. But moreso than being ahead she is a very happy child and well adjusted, something I did see in the baby who's mom decided to get back to work and go overdrive in terms of her ambitions, but that I no longer see now. My niece's parents are modern yet "simple" people they are grounded and laid back extremely loving family oriented and totally devoted to their kids, both of them are. So I EVEN brought up the reading thing because that is one of the many pluses of being a stay home mom. The kind of quality time a mother can devote to her babies within a day of multi chores and non-stop demands, is really priceless and the possibilities are truly endless in terms of how you choose to devote that time. They are strapped financially at times but it is a good trade off for what matters to them most, their kids's emotional development. It just turned into a whole "prove to me you are not full of shet" fest because TBF was skeptical of this process and chose to discredit and fixate on what I was saying rather than read about it on her own time and move on. I complied with her "interest" in the subject but quite frankly it derailled my comment for its original intent which was that being a stay at home mom has many benefits in terms of the quality of time one can spend with their kid. Even if it is sitting down next to them and putting building blocks in a pile, or playing chase and hide it is still mommy child time and to be able to do this on a daily basis, whether it be hanging at the pool, or going to the gym or going to a play date with other mommies and kids, or learning reading is better than a few hours in the evening coming home tired and half interested in anything other than feeding the kid bathing them and putting them to bed. THAT was my point it's a shame it got lost on one point I had to explain to death and make THAT the focal point of the debate. And to add to that a woman must come home on those few evening hours she has with the babies and cater to her husband and his needs as well. Exactly WHERE do women find the energy to devote all that quality time to their family? The answer is they don't, hence the high numbers in divorce these days. So if you need a nanny and maid then that means your duties within your family have already fallen through the cracks. From your posts, I would predict that if you become a mother that is exactly the kind of mother you'll be. Of course people can't look into a crystal ball and present guarantees about the kind of parents they or other people would make...but a bit of awareness and realistic (as opposed to continually self-aggrandising or flattering) examination of your own and other people's behaviour can give them a fairly decent idea I would think. As can experience of dealing with children and gauging the ability to maintain authority and credibility.... and to manage some of the unique stresses that dealing with children's more challenging behaviour bring. You are entitled to your predictions, but since I don't even have the faintest on what kind of parent I will be, you can know even less so I feel quite confident in chalking it up to your opinion and you are more than entitled to grasp on to that if you wish! It's a valid observation based on how you see I conduct myself in this debate but exactly how much weight does that have on how I would be in that situation? Think about that. I don't have the kind of competitive perfectionist streak in me to bring out what you described. but most importantly I KNOW that I have pretty balanced outlook on life. At the end of the day MOST parents want nothing but the best for their kids it's a learning curve from the moment they are born to the moment they die. THAT'S the only thing I know for sure about parenting. At least I have a realistic and balanced enough view on that and can humbly and distintcly seperate what I think I may know from what I will ACTUALLY know once I am there. I am not an arrogant person and I don't face life with arrogance, arrogance is what leads you don't the path of wanting to outdo the Jones'
Tomcat33 Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Holding on to this thought is also very important for, yes, it's true that some things are definitely beyond our control for there are myriads of influences at work on a growing child. However, I believe that if we pay close attention to their needs right from an early age, if we keep a watchful eye over them and guide them with our wisdom and love, then even if they do make a bad choice, they know that they can always rely on us to help them through those rough times. A parent's work is NEVER done. This is just it Marlena you sound like a very warm and loving mother. I don't doubt you did the best for your daughter. If that is your true attitude then I can imagine your daugher also refers to you in the same warm and loving way. I work with a trust fund baby, her dad is a big exec at a huge international business the mother is also a prefessional who doesn't cook or clean or do anything around the house, nannies and maids take care of it all (this is what she tells me). When I talk to my co-worker about her mom she describes her as the "guest" mom. This girl is an attractive 24 yr old but she lives on Mc Donalds and is too overweight for her young age. She is super smart and very good at her job but socially it would appear she does not know her boundaries, she crosses lines sometimes that should not be crossed and I am certain this stems from her great need to fit in and be accepted. She has had a string of very unfulfilling one sided love romances with men who have for the most part used her and moved on. She "hates" her mother and openly admits she has no relationship whatsoever with her and is highly irritated just talking about her and "hates" her father even more but she drives a mercedes benz that her daddy got her and enjoys a desk at a cushy job at our company that more than likely her daddy also helped her get. I never got a mercedez from my folks and we would sneak out to eat McDonalds from time to time because we were tired of the home cooked meals, and our house was no bed of roses but I can assure you, you will never EVER hear me refer to my parents in any tone even close to hate let alone disrespect. Sure they can get on my nerves and moms can be so irritiating and they have their faults but I have the utmost respect for who and what they are. My mom was a stay at home mom for the crucial yeas then she went back to work when we old enough to not depend on her so much. She devoted her all to us, I would never refer to her as the "guest" mom, she was super involved and was no guest at all in our lives, let me assure you sometimes even to our own disliking. But they did show us to love ourselves through their love and dedication and very open channels of communciation and by showing us they were always there for us when we needed to turn to someone we can trust. To quote Tina Fey's acceptance speech at the Golden Globes this year "Id like to thank my mother for teaching me to believe in myself and for giving me superior confidence that doesn't match my appearance or talent", I can relate.
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 No, not at all. I am an English teacher in a non-English speaking country. I have taught elementary level, secondary level and even University level. I have years and years of experience. Their early teens are most definitely a trying time... a time of enormous changes, both physical and emotional. It is during his/her puberty years that what you have taught your child so far, the groundwork you have laid so to speak, will be put to the test. Being there, keeping a close but unobtrusive eye, is crucial as it is at this time that peer pressure (and their hormones) will lead them to act in ways that are often times confusing and damaging. It's the beginning of the letting-go period and that takes a lot of adjusting to as well. My daughter is twenty -four and I still can't believe that she's flown the coop! One thing I know though and it is comforting, is that she has flown away but she has a lot of good ammo under her wings to face whatever challenges life may have in store for her. And that's the best we can do, prepare them fully well for their adult life. Yep, that's our number one job as parents, isn't it? Sounds like you've succeeded. Good for you! And yes...this is a tough time to be a parent. These puberty years...very tough at times. You're right that it's an adjustment for us as parents. I could never do this alone. I don't know how single parents do it. And my own mother was a single mother (my father died when I was 4.) What's your favorite level to teach, Marlena? I hated teaching middle/junior high (my son's age:eek:). I found that age to be the absolute toughest.
Tomcat33 Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Keep chasing your tail, Tomcat..... Keep adding nothing to the discussion sb129.
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Keep chasing your tail, Tomcat..... I don't think that's very nice, SB. TC has the right to respond to allegations made against her (especially those who presumed to know what kind of mother she'd be.)
Tomcat33 Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 I don't think that's very nice, SB. TC has the right to respond to allegations made against her (especially those who presumed to know what kind of mother she'd be.) Thanks Touche, but there IS a use for those nothing posts we can use them as pee breaks.
Touche Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Thanks Touche, but there IS a use for those nothing posts we can use them as pee breaks. Huh? What? Did I miss something? I had to go pee.
Tomcat33 Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Huh? What? Did I miss something? I had to go pee. You "didn't" miss nothing.
marlena Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 This is just it Marlena you sound like a very warm and loving mother. I don't doubt you did the best for your daughter. If that is your true attitude then I can imagine your daugher also refers to you in the same warm and loving way. Thanks TC. Yes, we have an extraordinary relationship. We not only love eachother deeply but we also look up to one another. Touche, to answer your question, each and every level was a challenge and had its merits but hands down I'd say that I much preferred teaching young adults, high school juniors and seniors and of course university level, well, because obviously I like a stimulating debate and probing minds. On the other hand, young children are so spontaneous and genuine and oh so affectionate, a lesson of love.
sb129 Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Well, its a little late in the piece now.. but the reason I said that was TC was arguing her point from a "I DEFINITELY know best even though I don't have any kids of my own" standpoint as well- BUT actually contradicted herself a few times in her own posts. She seems to be very close-minded about the issue and pushing her opinion down other peoples throats without listening to or respecting others opinions- or down and out telling them they are "WAY off base" or "TOTALLY wrong" etc etc... Bit of a habit I have noticed there, and I thought it was rather amusing that she was having a go at TBF for being wrong, however she also has no children and was only using anecdotal evidence about other peoples kids to support her arguments- as was TBF. BTW TC- sure, maybe that particular post added nothing to the discussion, but my other posts certainly weren't meaningless...and at least I am openminded enough to realise I am not an expert on the topic (and probably never will be even if i have 10 kids), and that I accept everybody is different and entitled to their own views on the issue.
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