Stop questioning it, she doesn't want you

[HiItsMe]

I'm in a current situation like this one too. Already posted on it.

 

1. She gave me her number

2. She actually agrees to attend events with me

3 She agreed to going out with me.

4. She is apologetic and claims she "feels bad" for not returning your call. ANd she's "sooo sorry" for not having getting back to you.

 

 

But, she never acts, so I keep purusing until she finally is forced into a position to give me her REAL Decision (saying she's not interested). Or until I get irritated and move on.

[serial muse]

Very good question. Confidence in one area usually shows weakness in another. Also, the average guy usually likes a challenge. Unless Scarlett Johansson asks me out, here are the usual reactions in average situations:

 

GIRL ASKS ME OUT: Unless she is hot, I'd think she is way too keen. Even if she is hot, I'd think there's something wrong with her.

 

GIRL ACCEPTS FIRST INVITE: Unless she is hot, I'd think "wow, that was easy".

 

GIRL SOFTLY DECLINES INVITE: I am left wondering and interest level is on the upswing.

 

GIRL FIRMLY DECLINES INVITE: I move on in a heartbeat.

 

Wow - this sounds like you actually expect and desire some level of game-playing, Joe. Would it really be a turn-off if a woman actually says yes when you ask her out, and a turn-on if she vaguely declines??

 

I'm not trying to be insulting, but honestly, something about this is kind of twisted, to me.

[Woggle]

Some woman actually like to play games and expect a man to try hard but when I was single if a woman said no I took it as a no. If she meant something else that was her problem. One time I had a woman turn me down for sex when I took her to my house and the next day she called me weak because I didn't just take it from her. Basically she got mad at me for not being a rapist.

[serial muse]

Some woman actually like to play games and expect a man to try hard but when I was single if a woman said no I took it as a no. If she meant something else that was her problem. One time I had a woman turn me down for sex when I took her to my house and the next day she called me weak because I didn't just take it from her. Basically she got mad at me for not being a rapist.

 

It's true, some people like the games (see above), and that's their bag, I guess. But in general, I completely agree that it's probably better to take a no as a no, and if the women was expecting a different reaction, then that's her problem. Like in your story, Woggle, where you basically escaped getting entangled with someone who plays games and thus wasn't your cup of tea anyway, so it was a lucky escape.

 

However, it's entirely possible that some women, at least, actually mean no when they say it.

The thing that puzzles me about Joe's post is the part where he says that her actually accepting his invite on the first ask makes him think it was a bit too easy! Now that's confusing.

 

And then (sorry, Joe, I'm really not picking on you, your post was just food for thought!), I was also struck by this:

 

Here are a few scaled examples.

 

WAY TOO MEAN: Did you really think I would accept your invitation? Get lost!

 

A BIT TOO MEAN: No I am not interested in going out with you.

 

JUST ABOUT RIGHT: I appreciate your invitation but I'm afraid I can't make it. Thanks for thinking of me though.

 

TOO NICE: That is so nice of you to think of me. I really would've loved to go but I have to do my homework. Perhaps if you could find better seats? Haha, just kidding. Thanks for thinking of me!

 

See, what I was getting from other mens' responses in this (and other) threads is that the "just about right" response is actually the source of the confusion problem. Whereas the "a bit too mean" response is better because it eliminates confusion.

 

I guess the answer is basically that for some people, direct (mean) works better, while others prefer an indirect (gentler) let-down. Unfortunately, going in, a person isn't always going to know which one it is, are they?

[vonerik012]

I think one issue is that women do not want to appear to be "easy". Either sexually, or in other ways.

 

If you are intuitive, it shouldn't be too hard to distinguish between the 2.

 

I had an ex break it off with me recently. She told me not to call her, and she can't handle a LDR. I tried for a few days , then quit.

 

She then called me 3 weeks later extremely upset, wondering why "I ended it", and why I quit calling.. She started saying "I knew you were never that into me" So, sometimes it is difficult to read women.

[LovehateLove]

No, Jadedone, I'm not complaining. I just want most guys to get it through their silly little heads that forceful pursuing won't get them anywhere.

 

The same can be said for women who will pursue a guy to no end. It's not just men who will keep pursuing women, the coin has two sides.

 

I have a one strike system, if I ask a girl out for a date or ask her if she'd like to be exclusive and she comes across as disinterested or dismisses my advances, I won't ever ask her for either a date or exclusivity.

[Kamille]

The same can be said for women who will pursue a guy to no end. It's not just men who will keep pursuing women, the coin has two sides.

 

 

Agreed, but I will say the "He's not that into you" philosophy has had the benefit of making a lot of women, myself included, finally get on the program about pursuing guys.

 

What I find odd about the threads from these guys is that being put on the back-burner by one woman (or two) is reason enough for them to make up theories about all women. So I agree with xxpapercutxx: don't get bitter! If you feel like a girl is leading you on, there's a good chance she's not interested. For your well-being, learn to say next! (Which has the benefit that on the off-chance she was playing games, then she will now have to pursue you.)

[carhill]

My question is, why do they continously doubt what's in front of them? Why can't they just take no for an answer instead of analyzing her every actions?

Shouldn't no mean no? Even disinterest on her part is enough to tell them to move on.

 

Specifically:

1. Never have doubted. It's always been crystal clear

2. Always have. Glad I did, in most cases

3. Yes.

4. Agreed. Why drill a dead hole?

 

Generically, since it hasn't been mentioned specifically, men are competitive beasts, so, to establish their pecking order on the gender totem pole, men compete for females (amongst other perceived valuable things) in life. Failure to get one's noodle wet, couched in the context of a competing male succeeding, strikes at the heart of that sense of competition.

 

I tend to view this socio-psychological behavior as unevolved, but women still value the structure and men are still socialized within it. There ya go

[LovehateLove]

Agreed, but I will say the "He's not that into you" philosophy has had the benefit of making a lot of women, myself included, finally get on the program about pursuing guys.

 

What I find odd about the threads from these guys is that being put on the back-burner by one woman (or two) is reason enough for them to make up theories about all women. So I agree with xxpapercutxx: don't get bitter! If you feel like a girl is leading you on, there's a good chance she's not interested. For your well-being, learn to say next! (Which has the benefit that on the off-chance she was playing games, then she will now have to pursue you.)

 

I cannot understand why there is a fuss about a woman pursuing a man. In an age where men can walk around with eyeliner, foundation and handbags and where homosexuality is acceptable a woman shouldn't have a problem pursuing a man.

 

As for the rest of your post, what has that got to do with me? I've already said I operate an ask once; never ask again policy. I ask a girl out for a drink, she says no, she doesn't get asked again. I strike her off as a someone who is not interested and I find someone else who is interested.

 

I spent my teenage years wasting time by being irrational, too emotional and naive and I won't make the same mistakes twice. I learnt so much from my teenage years and although much of it was spend being miserable, reclusive (at some points) and angry, it taught me a lot about life.

 

I do agree with what you and papercut have said, I think the worst thing a person can do is not follow their gut instinct. I have found it is very rarely wrong, but humans tend to be optimistic in the field of courtship and dating; therefore pay little or no heed to warning signs or red flags and walk into unknown blindfolded.

[Jilly Bean]

Because the same two guys who keep posting the same question over and over, are young and don't have the breadth of dating experience yet to understand women.

[Kamille]

I cannot understand why there is a fuss about a woman pursuing a man. In an age where men can walk around with eyeliner, foundation and handbags and where homosexuality is acceptable a woman shouldn't have a problem pursuing a man.

 

As for the rest of your post, what has that got to do with me? I've already said I operate an ask once; never ask again policy. I ask a girl out for a drink, she says no, she doesn't get asked again. I strike her off as a someone who is not interested and I find someone else who is interested.

 

I spent my teenage years wasting time by being irrational, too emotional and naive and I won't make the same mistakes twice. I learnt so much from my teenage years and although much of it was spend being miserable, reclusive (at some points) and angry, it taught me a lot about life.

 

I do agree with what you and papercut have said, I think the worst thing a person can do is not follow their gut instinct. I have found it is very rarely wrong, but humans tend to be optimistic in the field of courtship and dating; therefore pay little or no heed to warning signs or red flags and walk into unknown blindfolded.

 

 

I gotta run, but I was agreeing with your posts, just bringing up the nuance that now girls tell each other to Next guys much faster then guys seem to tell each other the same thing.

[JoeNewbie]

Wow - this sounds like you actually expect and desire some level of game-playing, Joe. Would it really be a turn-off if a woman actually says yes when you ask her out, and a turn-on if she vaguely declines??

 

I'm not trying to be insulting, but honestly, something about this is kind of twisted, to me.

 

I don't think anyone would deliberately be turned off by an easy yes. However, that's the way some of us react.

 

Several times in my life a girl I liked ended up chasing me, and everytime I was turned off. I would've loved not to be turned off but that's not how my mind reacted.

[JoeNewbie]

It is really interesting how people's opinions differ dramatically.

 

On the current thread, no means no.

 

On another thread I started, the vast majority of people said they would not cancel dinner with friends to go on a date.

 

In both situations, the girl's answer would've been the same: "Thank you for the invite but I already have plans tomorrow".

 

So, who's right?

 

If I invite a girl to a ball game, she can't offer an alternative since it's a one-time opportunity. What is she supposed to do in that situation?

[Mako482]

It is really interesting how people's opinions differ dramatically.

 

On the current thread, no means no.

 

On another thread I started, the vast majority of people said they would not cancel dinner with friends to go on a date.

 

In both situations, the girl's answer would've been the same: "Thank you for the invite but I already have plans tomorrow".

 

So, who's right?

 

If I invite a girl to a ball game, she can't offer an alternative since it's a one-time opportunity. What is she supposed to do in that situation?

 

No one knows any of this, all they know is their personal experience. One person would be turned off by lots of contact early whereas another will be the total opposite, some like being chased, other see you as desperate for doing so. If you play it slow some will see it lack of interest, others will appreciate it for what it is. We are all different, all you can do is be yourself and do your thing, let the chips fall where they may.

[JoeNewbie]

No one knows any of this, all they know is their personal experience. One person would be turned off by lots of contact early whereas another will be the total opposite, some like being chased, other see you as desperate for doing so. If you play it slow some will see it lack of interest, others will appreciate it for what it is. We are all different, all you can do is be yourself and do your thing, let the chips fall where they may.

 

What you say is very true. I just wanted to highlight the fact that people contradict themselves all the time.

[D-Jam]

My question is, why do they continously doubt what's in front of them? Why can't they just take no for an answer instead of analyzing her every actions?

Shouldn't no mean no? Even disinterest on her part is enough to tell them to move on.

The problem is that most women never really say "no".

 

They make excuses, give out phone numbers, say yes to dates, but try to make it where the guy has to call her later in the week to finalize plans...then they vanish. They never pick up their phone nor call back. They tell guys how they are a mess from their last BF and want to be single for a long time...then are in a new RL with some other guy two weeks later.

 

I don't know about you personally, but most women just can't be plain honest with guys. Granted there are loads of immature guys who will return a polite "no" with either 1000 questions of "why?" or they think "no means try harder", or they'll get angry like a spoiled brat and call the woman a bitch. I understand the plight of the female in this, but it's still no excuse to not be straightforward and honest.

 

I used to analyze because I wanted to know why it seemed every woman I met instantly made up excuses and/or flaked out on me. When I finally found some answers, I improved about myself what I needed to improve...but I also realized that it's not all about me. That there are those women who just aren't interested, and then there are many more who spend their lives hoping they can turn a scoundrel into a prince...thus why I never fit into their fairy tale.

 

When you live the life of an average male, then you get rejected a LOT by women. Anytime a woman is tossed into that world they come out shocked at how hard it gets to be a man in the dating realm. Many guys are not afraid of rejection, but more plain sick of it...and we work hard, analyze, and ponder so we can find the right answers, moves, etc. to get a "yes" out of the females who catch our eyes.

 

No means no...and any adult-minded male knows this...but many of you women need to start honestly using that reply as opposed to "I really have no time to date right now" or "Sure, but I'm not certain if I am free this weekend, call me Friday and we'll make plans then"

 

In the end, all you do is give guys more excuses to lie to you, to play you, and to basically find ways to manipulate you into bed or on the date. You women can then cry all night about how much men are liars, but if you're lying to men thinking you're avoiding conflict or protecting our feelings, you're just adding to the cycle that makes gentlemen into playas.

[vonerik012]

Joe Newbie,

 

I understand how you are thinking.

 

I think many of the posters are presenting a fake personae on threads like these, and it is easy to see.

 

They would probably go out with the guy in a heartbeat instead of their friends, but hate to admit it.

 

They also want to appear to be strong.. So no means no!

 

Unfortunately it is hard for people to answer direct questions truthfully, even over an internet message board.

[JoeNewbie]

No means no...and any adult-minded male knows this...but many of you women need to start honestly using that reply as opposed to "I really have no time to date right now" or "Sure, but I'm not certain if I am free this weekend, call me Friday and we'll make plans then"

 

I think there are many levels of unclear answers.

 

"I really have no time to date right now" is a definite "no". This one is not even debatable.

 

Same goes with "I'm not ready for a relationship because I just broke up". That one is a definite "no" as well.

 

"I am busy this Friday but thanks for the invite", with no further explanation, means "no" as well.

 

Issues come up when people come up with excuses that are so friggin nice that you can't help but giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[vanilla87]

I'm in a current situation like this one too. Already posted on it.

 

1. She gave me her number

2. She actually agrees to attend events with me

3. She agreed to going out with me.

4. She is apologetic and claims she "feels bad" for not returning your call. AND she's "sooo sorry" for not having getting back to you.

 

But, she never acts, so I keep purusing until she finally is forced into a position to give me her REAL Decision (saying she's not interested). Or until I get irritated and move on.

 

 

 

Basically it could be two things: 1)she likes you but doesn't want to date you or 2)thought you were nice, but was being avoiding letting you down so she made an excuse to not hurt your feelings.

 

If I don't like a guy, I usually tell him depending on how well I know him I'll say one of two things...

 

If I barely know him: "Well that sounds great, but I'm afraid I can't attend/go to/come with you to ____."

 

If I know the guy or friends with: "To be honest, I only see you as a friend..." or "Thats great and all, but I'm just not interested in you that way..."

 

 

Now if I'm interested....

 

Barely know him: "Sounds great! Here is my cell # and if you can't reach me there, if you have aim, here is my sn. You can try and reach me around after work/school/function at (said time). I'll be looking forward to your call, but no pressure if you can't contact me asap..."

 

If I do know him: "Sure, that sound like a plan. You have my number and I have yours so no problem with communication. But what time do you want to talk about confirming plans? (said time). Sounds great! Well I'll talk to you later..."

 

I'm forward, sometimes, only if its needed, but to some guys even if I say flat out I'm not interested, they still don't get the hint and ask "why not?" or "how come?" or "if things were different..."

 

Basically if a girl tells you anything that sounds like an excuse, its an excuse to not be straight forward with you about that fact that she doesn't want to see you outside anywhere with you. So please something hounding a girl to give in, because some day she may snap and actually get bitchy on you for not giving up, even if she is a nice girl.

[JoeNewbie]

Basically it could be two things: 1)she likes you but doesn't want to date you or 2)thought you were nice, but was being avoiding letting you down so she made an excuse to not hurt your feelings.

 

If I don't like a guy, I usually tell him depending on how well I know him I'll say one of two things...

 

If I barely know him: "Well that sounds great, but I'm afraid I can't attend/go to/come with you to ____."

 

If I know the guy or friends with: "To be honest, I only see you as a friend..." or "Thats great and all, but I'm just not interested in you that way..."

 

 

Now if I'm interested....

 

Barely know him: "Sounds great! Here is my cell # and if you can't reach me there, if you have aim, here is my sn. You can try and reach me around after work/school/function at (said time). I'll be looking forward to your call, but no pressure if you can't contact me asap..."

 

If I do know him: "Sure, that sound like a plan. You have my number and I have yours so no problem with communication. But what time do you want to talk about confirming plans? (said time). Sounds great! Well I'll talk to you later..."

 

I'm forward, sometimes, only if its needed, but to some guys even if I say flat out I'm not interested, they still don't get the hint and ask "why not?" or "how come?" or "if things were different..."

 

Basically if a girl tells you anything that sounds like an excuse, its an excuse to not be straight forward with you about that fact that she doesn't want to see you outside anywhere with you. So please something hounding a girl to give in, because some day she may snap and actually get bitchy on you for not giving up, even if she is a nice girl.

 

Your answers are very accurate and thorough - but honestly things hardly ever play out that way in reality.

 

People tend to be vague one way or the other just to protect themselves.

[vonerik012]

So vanilla..

 

Here is the question..

 

What if you really did have different plans on a day he asked you out? Should he think your honest answer is an excuse and forget you?

[Mako482]

So vanilla..

 

Here is the question..

 

What if you really did have different plans on a day he asked you out? Should he think your honest answer is an excuse and forget you?

 

I think that would fall under the "I have plans that night, but how about (insert other night here)?" I would think if interested they would offer another night to you.

[JoeNewbie]

I think that would fall under the "I have plans that night, but how about (insert other night here)?" I would think if interested they would offer another night to you.

 

Your answer is a good one but would not work if the invitation was to a unique event, i.e. ball game. How would you answer in that situation?

[D-Jam]

I think there are many levels of unclear answers.

 

"I really have no time to date right now" is a definite "no". This one is not even debatable.

 

Same goes with "I'm not ready for a relationship because I just broke up". That one is a definite "no" as well.

 

"I am busy this Friday but thanks for the invite", with no further explanation, means "no" as well.

 

Issues come up when people come up with excuses that are so friggin nice that you can't help but giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I understand what you mean, and most would say that even the fake excuses means no...but in the end it makes me respect her and women less. It shows me they can't be honest with a guy unless they find him attractive.

 

This is why I don't feel overly sorry for women whom I know tell guys these lies when other guys burn them. I call it more karma.

 

You say it's not debatable, but "I really have no time to date right now" can SOMETIMES mean what it says, and yes it's a rejection,

 

BUT...in womanese is really means "I don't want to date you, so I'll make up this excuse as opposed to saying I'm not interested, but I have tons of time if the guy is what I want."

 

Same thing with "I'm not ready for a relationship because I just broke up". It's still a "no", and sometimes it can mean what it says, but most of the time, it means "I don't want to date you, so I'll make up this excuse as opposed to saying I'm not interested, but I'll easily date a guy if he is what I want."

 

Now before anyone wants to believe I'm sore because I was rejected in the past, it's not that. This is more about accountability for oneself. Every time I hear a woman complain about how men lie to her, I'll usually ask her if she lies to men in this way. Right there I get lengthy explanations on how she felt it was ok for her, but not ok for someone to lie to her.

 

I call it karma.

 

If women want men to respect them, be honest with them, etc...then they need to start by being honest with men, even if it's what those men can't handle. If the guy blows up at you for saying "no", then don't sit there thinking you have to lie to avoid conflict, but more that he's a child and you see who he is now. If you feel guilty about saying "no" to someone decent and kind, don't. You had your reasons, be it valid or not, to say no. You respected him enough to be honest.

 

The excuse "I am busy this Friday but thanks for the invite" is a valid and honest one if she is busy. I also think a simple "Thank you for the invite. I'm flattered, but not interested. I hope you understand" is the easiest answer to give. If the guy gets insecure and starts pressing as to why you're saying no, just say "I'm not interested in you like that." If he keeps pressing on you, just tell him that you were honest and he needs to drop it.

 

Right now, I still have a hard time trusting women when it comes to dating...most of this came from the sheer amount of lies I have been told by women over my whole life. I'm not mad that women didn't find me attractive and didn't want to date me...but more that they felt I wasn't man enough to get the truth. I hear excuses and in my heart I know they're lying, and thus I think less of those women. I see women get hurt when I know they tell these lies and I more gain satisfaction than sympathy for them. I know this sounds cold, but I am about self-accountability.

 

NOW...what do I tell women I'm not interested in? The truth.

 

Have I gotten them getting all mad at me because I gave them a polite rejection? Hell yeah. Still doesn't scare me to be honest. I just saw those women are insecure and even more reasons why I wouldn't date them.

 

Honesty is a two-way street. If you can't be honest with people then how can you expect people to be honest with you? I make it black and white because that's how I feel on this. Either just politely reject people and ignore the insecure ones, or don't complain when people won't be honest with you.

[Alma Mobley]

I would think a good rule of thumb is to go by whether the woman suggests another day. If she truly is busy, and not lying, I think she would be quick to suggest something else or a different date so the guy doesn't get the impression that she isn't interested.

 

Even if it were a one-time event, and I had something seriously important to do, I would express my sincere regret at not being able to attend but suggest another activity for the future.

 

I do think women need to learn to be clear when they aren't interested and stop making excuses. They are trying to be nice but it can be agonizing for someone who doesn't know the signals.

 

Maybe guys also need a She's Just Not That Into You or something.