Hi I'm new, my MM has proposal for divorce or alternative.

[frannie]

I know he wants to be with me but I'm honestly not sure if he's got it in him to do what's necessary, at least within some sane amount of time before I haven't given up all hope.

 

Crossed posts. I wrote my post above before I read this.

 

This is the kind of thing I feel you need to have settled in your mind before going NC. I think that if you go NC hoping that he'll leave and you think you just need to stick it out for x-months til that happens, you're probably setting yourself up for failure.

 

Say you don't hear from him for 6 months... then what..? Do you pick up the phone..?

 

This is what I did the first time I went real NC with my xMM. I managed 4 months and thought he wasn't going to do it (he'd SAID he was going to leave, it was 'our understanding'). So I got back in contact with him and totally capitulated on everything. Not that I regret it all all, what we had after that was the best year of the affair in all honesty. But this time I am through with the affair, and I know that no matter how long I don't hear from him... it doesn't matter. Because in my mind and heart 'it's over' whether or not he leaves. Big difference in mindset.

 

Just a bit of my experience that might help you out here.

[Owl]

26.2 I'm gonna say it just the last time, and then I promise I'll shut up.

 

This was just more words. There were no boundaries with hard lines set. There were no deadlines given, he gave no firm timeline or decision.

 

This was all soft conversation. No teeth to it at all.

 

There were no actions taken...just more words and delay of a final decision.

 

This didn't change anything. You're still exactly where you were at before the discussion.

[26point2]

Crossed posts. I wrote my post above before I read this.

 

This is the kind of thing I feel you need to have settled in your mind before going NC. I think that if you go NC hoping that he'll leave and you think you just need to stick it out for x-months til that happens, you're probably setting yourself up for failure.

 

Say you don't hear from him for 6 months... then what..? Do you pick up the phone..?

 

This is what I did the first time I went real NC with my xMM. I managed 4 months and thought he wasn't going to do it (he'd SAID he was going to leave, it was 'our understanding'). So I got back in contact with him and totally capitulated on everything. Not that I regret it all all, what we had after that was the best year of the affair in all honesty. But this time I am through with the affair, and I know that no matter how long I don't hear from him... it doesn't matter. Because in my mind and heart 'it's over' whether or not he leaves. Big difference in mindset.

 

Just a bit of my experience that might help you out here.

 

Thanks Frannie. I think I understand what you're saying. But I can't stay in the middle like this... I know I am done with the affair. Yes I hope he leaves but I also know I'm okay if he doesn't. In fact I feel a little relieved to know that a decision has been made if not on his end then definitely on my end. His choice to not get divorced thus far is his choice, and my choice is to not be with him then.

 

Do you mean that in order for NC to work I have to have no more hope?

If so then yikes because I'm a pretty optimistic/ hopeful person. But I know in reality that he hasn't left so I can't be with him. And I really am okay with that-- a lot more okay than with continuing to stay the other woman in an affair. Does that make sense?

[26point2]

26.2 I'm gonna say it just the last time, and then I promise I'll shut up.

 

This was just more words. There were no boundaries with hard lines set. There were no deadlines given, he gave no firm timeline or decision.

 

This was all soft conversation. No teeth to it at all.

 

There were no actions taken...just more words and delay of a final decision.

 

This didn't change anything. You're still exactly where you were at before the discussion.

 

You don't need to shut up. I guess I'm just not getting exactly what I'm supposed to do. So I was too soft on him... I shouldn't have talked with him and tried to explain and tried to understand his point of view...

 

Okay. Well. I failed then. I guess I just can't do whatever it is I need to do with him. I don't know why I still have a bit of peace and relief then. I still feel kind of proud of myself because the other option was to say "I'll miss you and I can't wait until you get back and file for divorce." Well then I'd really feel like a fool.

 

I don't mean to drag this story out for so long. I wish I could talk privately with those of you who are helping me the most. I feel like some kind of drama queen. This really isn't who I want to be!

[Owl]

No, your other option was to tell him: "I've already told you what its going to take to continue our relationship. When the divorce is filed and you have the certified copies in hand, come talk to me about where we can go from there. Until then, don't contact me again."

 

What you've done in this last meeting with him is to show him that your boundaries are nebulous to the point of non-existance. He'll feel free to continue contacting you, and you'll continue to respond...regardless of whatever you've told him in the past.

 

Let me rephrase it a little. So far, YOU have just offered words to him as well. You've TOLD him you'll go NC if things don't happen...but you've not shown him that WITH ACTION.

 

He's TOLD you that he's going to make a decision and take steps...but he's not shown you that WITH ACTION.

 

You're still at the same point you've always been at.

 

See...there's a difference between TALKING about doing something...and DOING something. So far..its all talk.

 

DO something...and do not let him back into your life until he's DONE something. Not just talked about doing it.

[26point2]

No, your other option was to tell him: "I've already told you what its going to take to continue our relationship. When the divorce is filed and you have the certified copies in hand, come talk to me about where we can go from there. Until then, don't contact me again."

 

What you've done in this last meeting with him is to show him that your boundaries are nebulous to the point of non-existance. He'll feel free to continue contacting you, and you'll continue to respond...regardless of whatever you've told him in the past.

 

Let me rephrase it a little. So far, YOU have just offered words to him as well. You've TOLD him you'll go NC if things don't happen...but you've not shown him that WITH ACTION.

 

He's TOLD you that he's going to make a decision and take steps...but he's not shown you that WITH ACTION.

 

You're still at the same point you've always been at.

 

See...there's a difference between TALKING about doing something...and DOING something. So far..its all talk.

 

DO something...and do not let him back into your life until he's DONE something. Not just talked about doing it.

 

I see. Well now that I've made my point clear to him with my words, I will just follow through with action. If he contacts me I won't respond. I always feel bad, but I'll have to remember that I already explained to him why no contact is necessary. So now I just have to enforce it and remember he knows why I'm doing it.

 

I wonder why it is then whenever he contact me I think about HIM: what is he thinking/ feeling when I don't respond? What if he feels like I've deserted or abandoned him? Etc. Why can't I think about ME more and what I know is best for me? I need to remember to do this.

[2sunny]

 

#1) And he said it's not going to be long until they file and get divorced so maybe the best thing to do is wait.

 

#2) I told him those are his decisions to make and I don't want to pressure him or make him feel like I'm mad at him etc.

#3) I just need to step aside as I should have done, and tried unsuccessfully to do, some time ago. He said the hard part about that is that his feelings are so strong and he doesn't want to lose me.

.

 

regarding:

 

#1 well congratulations - this guy just bought more sitting still time.

 

#2 why would be afraid that he would get mad because you are stating how you feel about this? something about that doesn't sit well with me right now... you SHOULD be mad and you SHOULD have a right to show it if you want to without feeling like HE'S going to be angry.

 

#3 there you have it - he doesn't want to lose you... it's all about HIM and what will make him happy. WHAT ABOUT WHAT WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY? i would go NC with him for sure.

 

this was a very ambivalent conversation designed to keep things as they are. for him to once again buy more time and to keep things the same.

 

i say talk to the wife... i bet she doesn't have a clue as to the things he is telling you - the divorce- the dividing assets - the fact that he says he's not happy.

[26point2]

regarding:

 

#1 well congratulations - this guy just bought more sitting still time.

 

#2 why would be afraid that he would get mad because you are stating how you feel about this? something about that doesn't sit well with me right now... you SHOULD be mad and you SHOULD have a right to show it if you want to without feeling like HE'S going to be angry.

 

#3 there you have it - he doesn't want to lose you... it's all about HIM and what will make him happy. WHAT ABOUT WHAT WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY? i would go NC with him for sure.

 

this was a very ambivalent conversation designed to keep things as they are. for him to once again buy more time and to keep things the same.

 

i say talk to the wife... i bet she doesn't have a clue as to the things he is telling you - the divorce- the dividing assets - the fact that he says he's not happy.

 

2sunny,

 

I believe you are right with everything you say. I don't know why I always feel bad around him and I get afraid to make him angry. He has explosive reactions sometimes. I don't mean that he's physically violent but if I say something he doesn't like he flies off the handle. It's not attractive one bit. I guess I try to avoid touchy issues unless I approach them a certain way. I can say something like, "I'm not saying this to upset you, I understand how you can feel this way but it seems like..." and then say something iffy, like "maybe you're just trying to hold on to me and that's a little selfish." If I say it like that, he doesn't get mad and even agrees with me, like "yes, you're right, that's selfish of me, I shouldn't be doing that." (He does admit he's afraid to lose me and he wants me to wait until he sorts out his divorce issues.) But if I say the same thing in the heat of the moment without thinking out how to say it best, he'll say something like "Who the h*ll are you to accuse me of being selfish? If you want me to leave you alone, just say so and I will. What kind of a person do you think I am? I think you're being selfish by not understanding how hard this is for me, it's not an easy thing to just up and get divorced..." etc. It just turns into such an unpleasant conversation if I don't phrase things carefully. Sometimes he says things and then retracts them. Sometimes he says things and claims not to remember later that he said them. Sometimes he says things and then apologizes for them and tells me he'll never do that (ex., curse, hang up, etc.) again. It's crazy. That's why I agree, complete NC is necessary because he is driving me crazy.

 

As far as talking to his wife, I don't think I could do that. I don't feel like it's my place. I feel my place is to walk away and stay out of their marriage because you're right, I have no idea what is really going on! He told me yesterday that she's anxious to file and wanted to do it before he left for his trip and keeps saying, "let's do this already." I told him "then I don't understand why it hasn't been done. You have two women telling you to hurry up and get divorced, one whom you claim you can't wait to leave and the other one whom you claim you can't wait to be with, yet you still don't do it." But you're right, I don't know if she's really saying these things or not.

[2sunny]

wow- i am sorry for your position of interacting (communicating) with him. i was married to a man like this for 20 years.

 

he had me walking on eggshells every day and with every interaction with him. now he does it to my kids too.

 

it does NOT make for a pleasant relationship... it creates drama and volatile exchanges... makes you second guess yourself even when you are being perfectly reasonable.

 

don't think for a minute that his reaction to all of this is because of this situation - it is part of who he is and how he reacts to life. it is his way of control and manipulation. that is scary.

 

i am here to tell you from experience - it makes for a very long and uncomfortable life.

[whichwayisup]

I don't know why I always feel bad around him and I get afraid to make him angry. He has explosive reactions sometimes. I don't mean that he's physically violent but if I say something he doesn't like he flies off the handle. It's not attractive one bit. I guess I try to avoid touchy issues unless I approach them a certain way.

 

Think long term for a second. This is the type of behaviour you want later in life IF he does file and end up with you? Is he worth it? Because if this is how he handles crisis's, or any stressful situation, to get angry and act like a jerk, it'll only get worse as time goes on. Sunny is right, so please think ahead and not so much IN the heat of the moment and self satisfaction now.

[noforgiveness]

If he is like this to you, the love of his life, imagine how he is to his wife.

 

Please step away from this NOW. RUN!! This is not what you want. No wonder his wife is never around when he is. Seriously. Think about it.

 

Better yet. Tell his wife then run so she can get a clean break from this man. Divorce ala adultery.

[26point2]

Well I see it now when you guys point it out to me. Why am I so blind? I mean I saw it but he can also be so sweet and loving. Sunny you're right I do think it's the situation. He says that's why he over-reacts. He's promised to stop and he has gotten way better until recently when I said we can't talk anymore. But you're right, how long could the better stage last before he slips back into it? And you guys are right that he says he loves me so much and I make him happy, so how would he act when he's kind of tired of me and I make him unhappy or annoyed or something?

 

They do live completely separate lives and maybe it's because he's a jerk. Wow that's tough to write!

[26point2]

it does NOT make for a pleasant relationship... it creates drama and volatile exchanges... makes you second guess yourself even when you are being perfectly reasonable.

 

This is exactly how I feel. When I've told him this he's said "I did one little thing and I said I was sorry and now you're going to hold it against me for life and not forgive me?" You're right, it does make me feel like I'm being the unreasonable one. Like how dare I!...

 

There are some really smart people on this forum, thank you everyone, especially Sunny and Frannie for sharing your experiences with me because you guys have been in the same boat (in different ways) and Owl for sharing your advice because you've somehow got it all figured out. I know if I can only do what you say I'll be much happier!

 

It's funny because I thought this was a forum for OWs! I was expecting OWs to support me and if people who weren't OWs were here I thought they would be mean or naturally tell me not to be an OW. I've gone through and read posts from people who've responded, and I was reading the forum for awhile before I posted for the first time, and actually I don't know if any OWs have responded! I know Frannie you used to be an OW... and Lizzie but her post was actually the most assuming and bashing. She thinks I beg him to come back which I have never once done. To be fair, I haven't had the opportunity to because he's never once left me alone even when I've asked him to. I couldn't imagine him leaving me alone long enough to beg him to come back. But anyway the exact opposite of what I was expecting happened but I think it turned out to be a good thing. I guess I needed support from people who aren't OWs to end this thing, for now and maybe for good.

[2sunny]

just be strong and true to yourself and what will actually make YOU happy in the LONG run and you will know what to do. do you want your life to be the same as it is right now - five years from now? it will be the same if YOU allow it. i promise it will.

 

we can only tell you what we know from our own life experiences and what we have learned here as well.

 

keep us updated as to how things are going... (((((hugs)))))

[neverendingsaga]

There are some really smart people on this forum, thank you everyone, especially Sunny and Frannie for sharing your experiences with me because you guys have been in the same boat (in different ways) and Owl for sharing your advice because you've somehow got it all figured out. I know if I can only do what you say I'll be much happier!

 

It's funny because I thought this was a forum for OWs! I was expecting OWs to support me and if people who weren't OWs were here I thought they would be mean or naturally tell me not to be an OW. I've gone through and read posts from people who've responded, and I was reading the forum for awhile before I posted for the first time, and actually I don't know if any OWs have responded! I know Frannie you used to be an OW... and Lizzie but her post was actually the most assuming and bashing. She thinks I beg him to come back which I have never once done. To be fair, I haven't had the opportunity to because he's never once left me alone even when I've asked him to. I couldn't imagine him leaving me alone long enough to beg him to come back. But anyway the exact opposite of what I was expecting happened but I think it turned out to be a good thing. I guess I needed support from people who aren't OWs to end this thing, for now and maybe for good.

 

the same thing happened w/ me! it was mostly non-ows who spent so much time giving me lots of advice & help. I dunno where pelicanpreacher is but he should come here & tell you how your MM is a classic mamas boy. he showed me how mine is & they sound alot alike! but mine takes the cake.

 

 

frannie was so helpful to me too- frannie you rock!! and owl. totally the opp. of what i was expecting so i get what you mean. i thought id get shot down by bs & non-ows for ever being a ow but on another thread a bs is defending me against someone who was a ow go figure.

[26point2]

just be strong and true to yourself and what will actually make YOU happy in the LONG run and you will know what to do. do you want your life to be the same as it is right now - five years from now? it will be the same if YOU allow it. i promise it will.

 

we can only tell you what we know from our own life experiences and what we have learned here as well.

 

keep us updated as to how things are going... (((((hugs)))))

 

Thanks sunny. You are so kind. I'm glad you don't have to put up with your jerk of an ex-husband anymore! You obviously deserve much better.

[frannie]

Thanks Frannie. I think I understand what you're saying. But I can't stay in the middle like this... I know I am done with the affair. Yes I hope he leaves but I also know I'm okay if he doesn't. In fact I feel a little relieved to know that a decision has been made if not on his end then definitely on my end. His choice to not get divorced thus far is his choice, and my choice is to not be with him then.

 

Do you mean that in order for NC to work I have to have no more hope?

If so then yikes because I'm a pretty optimistic/ hopeful person. But I know in reality that he hasn't left so I can't be with him. And I really am okay with that-- a lot more okay than with continuing to stay the other woman in an affair. Does that make sense?

 

It makes perfect sense to me 26point2. I think you're in exactly the right mental place to go NC now. I was just worried in case you were as hopeless as I was the first time

 

I don't know why I always feel bad around him and I get afraid to make him angry. He has explosive reactions sometimes. I don't mean that he's physically violent but if I say something he doesn't like he flies off the handle. It's not attractive one bit. I guess I try to avoid touchy issues unless I approach them a certain way.

 

26point2 you've already had a couple of people tell you this (hello NES!), but I'm going to add to it: this doesn't sound good in the slightest. It sounds like he needs some help with that, because living with someone like that is not at all comfortable

[26point2]

Frannie,

You're right, as I step back and evaluate without my rose-colored glasses, armed with all the good advice and shared experiences and outside perspective I've gotten on this forum, I realize that he's just plain not the greatest partner. Not to me, not to her, probably not to anybody! In fact he's been a lousy partner to both of us despite all the romancing and sweet words to me.

 

I read the stories of other MM on here and I am like, OMG, so many of them seem so similar. Then I read the stories of BS on the Infidelity board-- and 2sunny's story she's shared with me here-- and I realize it's like dealing with my MM except from the other side... and this is sad to admit but I didn't really take in his wife's perspective until recently. I just looked at it as, oh they have all these problems and they are not right together and she is not good to him. I guess that's because I was listening to what he tells me about them/ her. But I have no idea what she really thinks. If I've seen such bad sides of him after a year and a half and he is supposedly so in love with me, I can only imagine what he must be like to her.

 

It doesn't sound like your MM was this way but it seems like so many of them are confused and selfish and insecure. I wonder if that's what happens when someone starts having an affair or if they were always like and that that's what allows them to have an affair. I am just trying to make sense of all of this. I feel like I've been a blind fool! I'm trying to figure out why it took faceless people on the Internet to get me to see all this stuff I was obviously missing or purposefully overlooking. Maybe it's because I can't talk to anyone in real life about it. If I did, I'm sure they would say the same things and maybe that's why I don't talk about it.

 

MM is leaving for his trip early tomorrow morning and I am so glad I'm having this break from him. I've been doing so much thinking and I have a lot more to do, alone. It's reassuring to hear from you that you think I'm ready to maintain NC. I know you've been there so I think you would know. All I know is that I can't talk to him even if it's the hardest thing ever.

[Owl]

26.2...you're very welcome. I hope my advice helps out in some way.

 

I'm glad that you're getting to a point where you're feeling strong enough to really take the control back into your own hands...that's the best possible thing to happen for your, IMHO.

 

Now that you've been here for a bit, its interesting that you're already seeing the similarities between all the stories that you see here. That might make my "textbook advice" a little more understandable now as well.

 

Hang in there friend...take charge, and things will work out the best way they can for you.

[26point2]

26.2...you're very welcome. I hope my advice helps out in some way.

 

I'm glad that you're getting to a point where you're feeling strong enough to really take the control back into your own hands...that's the best possible thing to happen for your, IMHO.

 

Now that you've been here for a bit, its interesting that you're already seeing the similarities between all the stories that you see here. That might make my "textbook advice" a little more understandable now as well.

 

Hang in there friend...take charge, and things will work out the best way they can for you.

 

Thank you Owl. I do understand why you give the textbook advice because all the stories have common elements. I saw that all along but I was hoping to stress the elements of my story that make it mine for me. In the end I am a woman who was being strung along by a married man, and settling for less than what I deserve, like the rest of the OWs. I knew that but it is hard to find my way out of something I spent so long getting into.

 

I'm not saying it's going to be smooth sailing now but I'm really glad I found this place. It gives me so much extra perspective. When I read stories by other OWs I'm screaming at them, don't do it! So it starts to get easier to tell myself that in my own situation. Like, if I don't think it's good for them, why would I think it's good for me? And Owl your advice is really helpful, some of the best I've gotten.

 

I'm lucky (and incredulous) that there are good people out there like you, 2sunny, WWIU and Frannie that take so much time giving advice to someone on the Internet that they don't even know! I don't know WWIU's story but I think it's particularly amazing that you and 2sunny are so kind and helpful to people (OPs like me) that are in the same position as the ones who helped hurt you. That is really incredible.

 

And Frannie I appreciate you sharing with me all you've learned and I think you are amazing, you show me that there is a happy life after all of this if I can just get and stay strong!