Sometimes it does happen...

[Jess-Belle]

Maybe you should!!!! :lmao::rolleyes:

 

OK! Who wants a piece of the funky disease the OW gave to us? :lmao:

[nellstar]

OK! Who wants a piece of the funky disease the OW gave to us? :lmao:

 

You got the funky disease from OW? How many partners did your partner have.. or you had??

[Jess-Belle]

Typically I've been the one with multiple simultaneous partners, while the MM's I've been involved with have been sexually exclusive with me - and before everyone shreiks "how do you know? you weren't with him and his wife to see. They all claim their marriages are sexless..." etc etc etc you're right, I don't know, but they'd have gained nothing from lying since they knew I had other lovers and thought sexual exclusivity was ridiculous, since they knew I EXPECTED them to be sexually involved with their Ws, and since I terminated them when their lack of sexual engagement with their Ws resulted in them wanting more from the R than I was prepared to invest. It would have been in their interests to continue sexual relations with their Ws, and to be honest about that with me. Their loss, I guess.

 

To be honest, I think most guys don't buy it for two seconds when women tell them this stuff. Women who genuinely feel this way are probably by no means in the majority, and further, there are plenty who do insist as you have and then when it happens, the woman turns around and completely flips out. I think that's what they choose to safely assume, and prefer to lie about it. I've seen various OW claim they say this stuff to the MM only to get the stanards reply that they really, really don't have sex with the W anymore.

 

Not saying that's what happened with you, just an observation.

[Jess-Belle]

You got the funky disease from OW? How many partners did your partner have.. or you had??

 

Yep! He was only involved with one. I literally immediately developed some crazy infection, and that was the catalyst for the whole sordid story coming out. A good hard lesson for those who could swear up and down that they will never be caught

[Owl]

Typically I've been the one with multiple simultaneous partners, while the MM's I've been involved with have been sexually exclusive with me - and before everyone shreiks "how do you know? you weren't with him and his wife to see. They all claim their marriages are sexless..." etc etc etc you're right, I don't know, but they'd have gained nothing from lying since they knew I had other lovers and thought sexual exclusivity was ridiculous, since they knew I EXPECTED them to be sexually involved with their Ws, and since I terminated them when their lack of sexual engagement with their Ws resulted in them wanting more from the R than I was prepared to invest. It would have been in their interests to continue sexual relations with their Ws, and to be honest about that with me. Their loss, I guess.

 

Owoman, I'd submit that they claimed that their marriages were sexless to justify what they were doing. No, they didn't NEED to justify what they were doing to you. But they WANTED to. And they wanted to try to justify the same thing to themselves as well. I think the only person that the WS lies to more than the OP or BS is THEMSELVES. They lie to themselves most of all, to mentally and emotionally justify...to themselves...what they're doing. Even if its a lie, it makes them feel better to think/say these things.

[SunLover62]

Hi SL62... are you still planning to leave your H? Is MM also leaving?

 

Oh and welcome to LS.

 

In advance... good luck... being around LS.

 

Thank you for the warm welcome!

 

Yes, I am still making plans to leave my H. I have been waiting on a permanent job offer from the company where I am currently temping. It's been "pending" for several months now. (damn economy) The harsh reality is I need to make sure I can keep the roof over my head and have health insurance before I can make plans for the future. I don't expect my ex to take care of me after I leave.

 

I honestly don't know what MM's plans are. I know he's unhappy at home and I make him happy. As I said, our relationship is still very new. We've chatted on the internet for less than 3 months and have been physically involved for less than a month. We both knew when we started that neither of us were ready to make the big leap yet. Our feelings for each other have definitely blossomed, but no one's talking about the future yet. My decision to leave my husband isn't contingent upon whether or not I get to be with him. My marriage is over either way.

 

One day at a time.

[whichwayisup]

but some nights I find myself in tears wishing he could be lying in bed next to me instead of my husband.

 

What is stopping you from leaving and divorcing your husband? Why stay married if you're so miserable and crying in bed beside your husband, wishing it was your MM laying beside you instead? Wouldn't you rather be alone than be in the company of someone who you can't stand?

[whichwayisup]

Thank you for the warm welcome!

 

Yes, I am still making plans to leave my H. I have been waiting on a permanent job offer from the company where I am currently temping. It's been "pending" for several months now. (damn economy) The harsh reality is I need to make sure I can keep the roof over my head and have health insurance before I can make plans for the future. I don't expect my ex to take care of me after I leave.

 

I honestly don't know what MM's plans are. I know he's unhappy at home and I make him happy. As I said, our relationship is still very new. We've chatted on the internet for less than 3 months and have been physically involved for less than a month. We both knew when we started that neither of us were ready to make the big leap yet. Our feelings for each other have definitely blossomed, but no one's talking about the future yet. My decision to leave my husband isn't contingent upon whether or not I get to be with him. My marriage is over either way.

 

One day at a time.

 

Does your husband know that you are planning on leaving him? Does he know how unhappy you are? Any kids in the mix?

 

If you DO leave your H, do it for you, not because you have someone waiting in the wings...

[OWoman]

Owoman, I'd submit that they claimed that their marriages were sexless to justify what they were doing. No, they didn't NEED to justify what they were doing to you. But they WANTED to. And they wanted to try to justify the same thing to themselves as well. I think the only person that the WS lies to more than the OP or BS is THEMSELVES. They lie to themselves most of all, to mentally and emotionally justify...to themselves...what they're doing. Even if its a lie, it makes them feel better to think/say these things.

 

Owl, they didn't claim their marriages were sexless. They all claimed that they were happily married and sexually active with their wives, or I'd never have gotten involved with them. But once we were involved, they got switched off their Ws and started behaving accordingly. When pressed - because of the evidence - they'd admit to it, but they didn't volunteer that they weren't having sex with their Ws. In a couple of cases the Ws complained to people I knew that they weren't getting any anymore and of course that kind of thing gets repeated gleefully by people wanting to feel better about themselves and their own miserable marriages... but in other cases the evidence was more, er, physiological.

 

I don't deny that they needed to rationalise their behaviour - but their rationalisations were typically agreeing with me that monogamy was oppressive, sexual exclusivity unnatural and the whole institution of marriage a capitalist plot based on assumptions of other humans as property, the marriage as site of social and labour reproduction and the suppression of the libido in service of capital. Engaging in an A then becomes an act of revolutionary defiance, which does not need to be assuaged by rationalisations from within the system one is purporting to overthrow! The more revolutionary, the better! Strike a blow for freedom! Cast off the shackles and liberate the oppressed! (I'm sure you get the picture - though maybe not, in the States? It's probably more of a European / Latin American / Global South kind of thing!) These are midlifers we're talking about - recapturing the spirit of their youth was far more important to them than conforming to the grey orthodoxy of what they feared slipping into!

[OWoman]

Owoman, I'd submit

 

Sorry Owl :lmao: I just can't shake the image now of you with a dog leash around your neck kissing the feet of some dominatrix in black leather boots and a whip... :lmao:

 

Sorry for the t/j but it was either get it out, or burst all over my keyboard.

[SunLover62]

Money and selfishness.

 

Yep, I'm selfish. I've got just one life to live and as far as I know I don't get a "do over" when this one ends, so I'd like to try to be happy this time around.

 

Money - I make as much as he does. I just don't have health benefits yet and I'm not exactly wealthy enough to pay for health care a la cart.

[jj2007]

My point - which should have been obvious from the context of the post it was responding to - was that the "lying and cheating" foundation of a M is not always laid by the CS. Sometimes the BS laid that foundation at the outset and the other MP merely fell into the behaviour norm later.

 

My point- It doesn't matter which partner did the lying, that probably one of the reasons why the relationship was weak because it was built on lies. Like I said before, IMO, no relationship that is built on lies will make it. No healthy relationships are based on lies. I'm not surprised at all that a marriage that started out as an A didn't last. I still don't see the point of getting married if it's nothing but lies and a sham from the very start. No one forced your MM to get married and live a lie. Which is why I think your MM has fed you some lines as many MM do. I am not trying to argue with you or be the moral police. As a BS I am trying to understand all sides of the triangle and this is a learning experience for me.

 

I will repeat my question since it wasn't answered.

How do you know for sure that your MM isn't lying to you?

Again, if you have any extra lie detectors around I would really like to borrow one. Or are you a mind reader? Please enlighten me.

[Owl]

Owoman-

 

Owl, they didn't claim their marriages were sexless. They all claimed that they were happily married and sexually active with their wives, or I'd never have gotten involved with them. But once we were involved, they got switched off their Ws and started behaving accordingly. When pressed - because of the evidence - they'd admit to it, but they didn't volunteer that they weren't having sex with their Ws. In a couple of cases the Ws complained to people I knew that they weren't getting any anymore and of course that kind of thing gets repeated gleefully by people wanting to feel better about themselves and their own miserable marriages... but in other cases the evidence was more, er, physiological.

 

I don't deny that they needed to rationalise their behaviour - but their rationalisations were typically agreeing with me that monogamy was oppressive, sexual exclusivity unnatural and the whole institution of marriage a capitalist plot based on assumptions of other humans as property, the marriage as site of social and labour reproduction and the suppression of the libido in service of capital. Engaging in an A then becomes an act of revolutionary defiance, which does not need to be assuaged by rationalisations from within the system one is purporting to overthrow! The more revolutionary, the better! Strike a blow for freedom! Cast off the shackles and liberate the oppressed! (I'm sure you get the picture - though maybe not, in the States? It's probably more of a European / Latin American / Global South kind of thing!) These are midlifers we're talking about - recapturing the spirit of their youth was far more important to them than conforming to the grey orthodoxy of what they feared slipping into!

 

Thanks for the clarification. It makes a lot of sense!

 

Here's what's intriguing in what you say though.

 

The MM you were with STARTED the affair with you and were still being intimate with their wives. That intimacy faded/ended after they began the affair with you. This doesn't surprise me.

 

Most people (not all, and I suspect that you may be an exception to the rule) are unable to seperate physical and emotional intimacy. Once they became physically intimate with you, they began to bond to you. And their bond with their wife weakened as the affair went on. There is all kinds of research that supports this concept, and it clearly fits what went on in this situation as well. They didn't want to admit it, but as a result of being physically intimate with you, they were becoming more emotionally attached to you as well. And less so with their wives.

 

This is why I will never buy into that "the affair is good for the marriage" concept.

 

It also goes against your belief that we're not intended to be monogamous. The simple truth is, we bond with those that we are physically intimate with. We create emotional bonds to them, often whether or not they reciprocate those feelings.

 

Even in YOUR current situation, you've noted that you "don't need anyone else". You're becoming monogamous as a result of your physical and emotional attachment to your MM.

 

Monogamy isn't "against human nature". Its part of our nature. As evidenced by your MM's very response to the affair. Look at Lizzie's case...how many of her MM have offered to "give up" their spouses? Its because they've begun bonding to her, destroying their bond to their spouses. And they're "giving up" someone else for her (offering to, at least). Offering to become monogamous, in fact.

 

I buy that our species might not be meant to mate "for life". But we aren't meant to cheat on each other. If we were...it wouldn't hurt so much when it happens to us, no?

 

Even in YOUR life, where you don't believe in marriage and monogamy...you're considering "giving up" that belief (at least temporarily) and marrying him (for a financial reason), and have been monogamous with him up to this point and for the forseeable future.

 

As far as 'breaking the shackles'...I say go for it. Divorce your spouses, and live your life as you see fit. Just don't hurt the person you love(d) in the process...don't cheat...just don't get married, don't set false expectations, and end your current relationship before you move on to the next.

 

Last thing...on the whole submissive thing...you WISH, girlfriend!

[SunLover62]

Does your husband know that you are planning on leaving him? Does he know how unhappy you are? Any kids in the mix?

 

If you DO leave your H, do it for you, not because you have someone waiting in the wings...

 

Yes, actually he does know. I told him before Christmas that I was going to ask for a separation after I got a permanent job offer from my employer. He has tried to make things better, but we stopped being a couple in love so long ago there is nothing left to salvage. For now he has chosen to do his ostrich imitation and stick his head in the sand.

 

Unfortunately yes, there are two children involved. I can't tell you how many times I wished I could go back and change everything. That instead of bringing children into a loveless marriage to "fix it" I had realized that what I really needed was my freedom.

 

And that's what it is about - my freedom. Not about being with MM, although he makes me deliriously happy right now, it's about me. Yes, I would rather be alone than lying next to him, but it's not because I hate him. He's a good person. None of this is about him. It's me, all me and my selfish need to be the person I was before I married H.

[Tomcat33]

But we aren't meant to cheat on each other. If we were...it wouldn't hurt so much when it happens to us, no?

 

Are you kidding? the human being is a selfdestructive being. We are very much meant to do things that cause us pain, life itself is meant to cause us pain and make us hurt. The only way you can avoid that is to sit in one spot your entire life and wait to die and even that can't be too pleasureable on an emotional level.

 

 

The point is we prefer pleasure because it feels better, but ultimately we will ALL do things to selfdestruct.

[Owl]

Are YOU kidding?

 

All that I typed, and that's what you walked away with?

 

Sure, people are self-destructive a lot of times, I'll grant you that. But that doesn't negate this point...or any of the other points I raised.

[SunLover62]

Owoman-

 

I buy that our species might not be meant to mate "for life". But we aren't meant to cheat on each other. If we were...it wouldn't hurt so much when it happens to us, no?

 

YES!!!! I agree with EVERYTHING you've said, but this particular issue is seems to be the crux of the whole thing. This is what I have really come to believe in the last 7-8 months as I realized I no longer wanted to be married to my husband.

 

There was a line in an old 80's movie that kept replaying in my head and I may be paraphrasing, "Being married to the same person for your entire life was invented by people who were lucky to make it to 40 without being eaten by a dinosaur."

 

Monogomy isn't the problem, marriage isn't even the problem, it's decided at 25 that this is the person you are going to live with for the rest of your life. TIL DEATH DO YOU PART. We live much longer than our ancestors did and right or wrong lead much more complicated lives. The world changes so rapidly now and we change to keep up. Maybe it's just completely impractical to think that you are going to feel the same way about someone in 10, 15 or 20 years as you do when you are 25.

 

I don't deny that it's a sad comentary. I'm just trying to figure out what happened to my marriage too. I didn't just wake up one day and say, "I don't love you anymore." That's not even the case. A part of me will always love him, but just as I would my best friend of 20 years. The problem is I'm too damn young to kiss passion and romance goodbye.

[OldEurope]

Engaging in an A then becomes an act of revolutionary defiance, which does not need to be assuaged by rationalisations from within the system one is purporting to overthrow! The more revolutionary, the better! Strike a blow for freedom! Cast off the shackles and liberate the oppressed! (I'm sure you get the picture - though maybe not, in the States? It's probably more of a European / Latin American / Global South kind of thing!) These are midlifers we're talking about - recapturing the spirit of their youth was far more important to them than conforming to the grey orthodoxy of what they feared slipping into!

 

Sure! Just like Casanova (European, Latin, Global kind of thing, all over the map in fact) who was Liberated! and Revolutionary! and Threw off the shackles of monogamy! ....

 

.... and died a lonely, old, syphillis-ridden dolt working as a librarian in the no man's land of 18th century Bohemia. Next!

 

Just joshing here OWoman...couldn't resist the image of the liberated super lover stooped over dust-smothered obscuranta in his "retirement" years.......Love your posts, finding this thread(your posts) very interesting

 

xo

OE

[Tomcat33]

Are YOU kidding?

 

All that I typed, and that's what you walked away with?

 

Sure, people are self-destructive a lot of times, I'll grant you that. But that doesn't negate this point...or any of the other points I raised.

 

Yes I am allowed to focus on what I want am I not?

 

You said people were not meant to be unfaithful otherwise it would not hurt as it does, I said people are destructive by nature, so the idea that people were not MEANT to cheat because it is painful is not a valid one in my view. People were not meant to cheat because morals were put into place by people that work WITH monogamy. NOT because it is painful, cheating isn't painful the breaking of morals is.

 

 

I buy that our species might not be meant to mate "for life". But we aren't meant to cheat on each other. If we were...it wouldn't hurt so much when it happens to us, no?

 

[OWoman]

Owoman-

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. It makes a lot of sense!

 

Here's what's intriguing in what you say though.

 

The MM you were with STARTED the affair with you and were still being intimate with their wives. That intimacy faded/ended after they began the affair with you. This doesn't surprise me.

 

Most people (not all, and I suspect that you may be an exception to the rule) are unable to seperate physical and emotional intimacy. Once they became physically intimate with you, they began to bond to you. And their bond with their wife weakened as the affair went on. There is all kinds of research that supports this concept, and it clearly fits what went on in this situation as well. They didn't want to admit it, but as a result of being physically intimate with you, they were becoming more emotionally attached to you as well. And less so with their wives.

 

This is why I will never buy into that "the affair is good for the marriage" concept.

 

It also goes against your belief that we're not intended to be monogamous. The simple truth is, we bond with those that we are physically intimate with. We create emotional bonds to them, often whether or not they reciprocate those feelings.

 

Even in YOUR current situation, you've noted that you "don't need anyone else". You're becoming monogamous as a result of your physical and emotional attachment to your MM.

 

Monogamy isn't "against human nature". Its part of our nature. As evidenced by your MM's very response to the affair. Look at Lizzie's case...how many of her MM have offered to "give up" their spouses? Its because they've begun bonding to her, destroying their bond to their spouses. And they're "giving up" someone else for her (offering to, at least). Offering to become monogamous, in fact.

 

I buy that our species might not be meant to mate "for life". But we aren't meant to cheat on each other. If we were...it wouldn't hurt so much when it happens to us, no?

 

Even in YOUR life, where you don't believe in marriage and monogamy...you're considering "giving up" that belief (at least temporarily) and marrying him (for a financial reason), and have been monogamous with him up to this point and for the forseeable future.

 

As far as 'breaking the shackles'...I say go for it. Divorce your spouses, and live your life as you see fit. Just don't hurt the person you love(d) in the process...don't cheat...just don't get married, don't set false expectations, and end your current relationship before you move on to the next.

 

Last thing...on the whole submissive thing...you WISH, girlfriend!

 

Owl this warrants a proper response which I'm just not up to right now (had some bad news I need to work through) so I'll respond when I have my brain back.

 

Beyond the "submissive" thing - the image just won't budge, it's got some furry handcuffs added now... (in a fetching shade of turquoise!)

[Lookingforward]

If you were having problems in your marriage and your H moved out to think about stuff, would you really feel that it's OK for him to dabble with some other woman while he's at it? Or would you feel that until you have decided to call it quits, the marriage is still in full force and effect?

 

But you see he didn't "move out to think about things", as far he was concerned at the time , that was IT, over, done, game, set , match.

 

You are not going to 'guilt' me into believing it was MY fault LOL

[OWoman]

[/i]

 

Sure! Just like Casanova (European, Latin, Global kind of thing, all over the map in fact) who was Liberated! and Revolutionary! and Threw off the shackles of monogamy! ....

 

.... and died a lonely, old, syphillis-ridden dolt working as a librarian in the no man's land of 18th century Bohemia. Next!

 

Compared with other 18th C alternatives, I reckon he got lucky. How about tending a vegetable garden on some distant shore to feed scurvied sailors, or working as a slave on a plantation, or being the wife of a landless peasant with a horde of children who die almost as fast as you breed them? A Bohemian library sounds a rare treat, and anyway syphilis rots the brain so he's have lived out his end in the fuzzy bliss of his glory days, not even noticing the septic odour around him. The rock star of his generation. Never mind the colostomy bags - the whiff of warm knickers flying past on the stage makes it all worthwhile...

[Tomcat33]

I think each and every person is allowed to decide for him/herself what is personally painful to them, no?

 

you missed the point I didn't say there is no pain nor am I deciding what is painful for anyone. We are by nature pronded to destruction, yeah? we set limits or boundaries for our existence to keep society in order, yeah? and within that marriage was created. Marriage is a moral creation but given our destructive natures, we are setting ourselves up to possibly fail. The idea is to succeed, but instinctually we at times fail and don't really care if we feel pain or not we just selfdestruct.

so in essence we WERE meant to cheat or to do anything that is deemed morally wrong we don't because we want to follow our own guidelines and rules, ie. morals.

[daisygirl]

Yes, actually he does know. I told him before Christmas that I was going to ask for a separation after I got a permanent job offer from my employer. He has tried to make things better, but we stopped being a couple in love so long ago there is nothing left to salvage. For now he has chosen to do his ostrich imitation and stick his head in the sand.

 

Unfortunately yes, there are two children involved. I can't tell you how many times I wished I could go back and change everything. That instead of bringing children into a loveless marriage to "fix it" I had realized that what I really needed was my freedom.

 

And that's what it is about - my freedom. Not about being with MM, although he makes me deliriously happy right now, it's about me. Yes, I would rather be alone than lying next to him, but it's not because I hate him. He's a good person. None of this is about him. It's me, all me and my selfish need to be the person I was before I married H.

 

 

Sun Lover...we should chat....I could have written this post myself....except the part about the MM...I totally understand!!

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

What an entertaining thread!

 

Firstly, GEL, well done for shouting about your happiness and I wish you happiness and contentment. You're right, affairs and subsequent relationships do happen, and I'm living proof and I'm content.

 

Secondly, I don't appear to be feeling enough guilt about being happy in my situation. Could someone please place a "Download Guilt Now" pop up instead of the ad banner that takes 40 minutes to download on this piece of crap computer?