If christianity is true than god is a hyprocrit

[Ocean-Blue]

Exactly. And that's the thing, is that if you apply logic and critical thinking to religion, there's really nothing left...

 

Are we talking about organized religion here? Christianity? All and any religion? Personally, I believe there is a superior force that governs the Earth and the entire universe. I don't need a text to tell me that - science and nature do it for me. I believe in something that is greater than I am (just as the wind, earth, and water are greater than me).

 

I believe in God. I'm logical and critical and rational.

 

I'm also Hindu.

[Ocean-Blue]

Ocean-Blue - you and I had quite a set of heated debates tonight, didn't we? It was a pleasure arguing with you, you are a formidable adversary.

 

Why thank you good sir! You're not half bad yourself (even if you are a tad on the arrogant side). I keed, I keed...

[Phateless]

Why thank you good sir! You're not half bad yourself (even if you are a tad on the arrogant side). I keed, I keed...

 

I can't speak for all religions, I was thinking mainly of Christianity. From what I hear, Hindu makes a lot of sense when you apply critical thinking to it. I'm Jewish and I don't know enough about it to make an assertion as to it's validity under scrutiny of critical thinking.

 

Haha, I'm not arrogant, I'm cocky. Get it straight! heheh, just playin'

[Ocean-Blue]

I can't speak for all religions, I was thinking mainly of Christianity. From what I hear, Hindu makes a lot of sense when you apply critical thinking to it. I'm Jewish and I don't know enough about it to make an assertion as to it's validity under scrutiny of critical thinking.

 

Haha, I'm not arrogant, I'm cocky. Get it straight! heheh, just playin'

 

I was being facetious. Sort of...

[Phateless]

I was being facetious. Sort of...

 

lol, well played. Actually I know I'm a little arrogant but I try to keep it within reason. I figure a little self-confidence can't hurt with the ladies...

[lonelybird]

Yes, God is all forgiving, when we heartly repent and change sinful ways. If people don't have a little bit remorse and don't want to turn to God, then they are going to end up a place where seperate from God.

 

If a person make a mistake, he will suffer from it. will he change his ways when his mistakes make him happy? this is how God's law working in our lives. if we violate the laws of God, we receive consequences and suffering, what is laws of God? teach us not only love ourselves, but also love others as well. so if we violate those laws, that really is bad news for everyone around them. since we are born of sinful nature, we make mistakes. good news is God sent his son died in our places, we receive free gift of forgiveness from God and eternal life, and Holy Spirit who change us from inside

[Phateless]

I have a feeling Tony will close this thread in a while...we may be going off topic (from your original post). I'm such a LS nerd.

 

True confidence is a fu@cking aphrodisiac (pardon my French). Arrogance is barf worthy. Kudos to you if you have the former attribute.

 

Thanks. For now, I'll let you be the judge of that. 'night...

[Ocean-Blue]

Yes, God is all forgiving, when we heartly repent and change sinful ways. If people don't have a little bit remorse and don't want to turn to God, then they are going to end up a place where seperate from God.

 

If a person make a mistake, he will suffer from it. will he change his ways when his mistakes make him happy? this is how God's law working in our lives. if we violate the laws of God, we receive consequences and suffering, what is laws of God? teach us not only love ourselves, but also love others as well. so if we violate those laws, that really is bad news for everyone around them. since we are born of sinful nature, we make mistakes. good news is God sent his son died in our places, we receive free gift of forgiveness from God and eternal life, and Holy Spirit who change us from inside

 

But tell me, how do YOU reconcile the stark contrast between this notion of an all forgiving God with one that damns his creations to hell for eternity?

[Phateless]

But tell me, how do YOU reconcile the stark contrast between this notion of an all forgiving God with one that damns his creations to hell for eternity?

 

What do you mean? Me personally, I figure I know I'm a good person so I'm not worried about it. When I want to be spiritual I go to nature, not a church or temple.

 

Funny thing is, I can't reconcile that. That's a perfect example of my whole critical thinking/religion gripe, lol. What about you?

[Ocean-Blue]

What do you mean? Me personally, I figure I know I'm a good person so I'm not worried about it. When I want to be spiritual I go to nature, not a church or temple.

 

Funny thing is, I can't reconcile that. That's a perfect example of my whole critical thinking/religion gripe, lol. What about you?

 

I can't. That question was actually directed at lonelybird.

 

This was a problem I had with the ex. I couldn't possibly teach my children that there is a hell when I didn't believe one existed (simply b/c of this very fact - an all forgiving God would NOT send a soul to hell...just doesn't make sense).

[Phateless]

But tell me, how do YOU reconcile the stark contrast between this notion of an all forgiving God with one that damns his creations to hell for eternity?

 

I can't. That question was actually directed at lonelybird.

 

This was a problem I had with the ex. I couldn't possibly teach my children that there is a hell when I didn't believe one existed (simply b/c of this very fact - an all forgiving God would NOT send a soul to hell...just doesn't make sense).

 

Completely agree. Ok, I'm really passing out now, I promise. It's 2:17 am here in California, and I don't have sh*t to do tomorrow so I'd better rest up!

[lonelybird]

But tell me, how do YOU reconcile the stark contrast between this notion of an all forgiving God with one that damns his creations to hell for eternity?

Because God taught me something good, gave me love and light and hope. He is the best thing that happened to me, I cannot image if he isn't in my life, he makes my life here like heaven sometimes when I am in Spirit. I learned that God IS forgiving and LOVE. He also answers my prayers, he changed me from inside, he blessed me much, he taught me many things and even rebuke me if I do something wrong to others, he taught me good stuff: forgiveness, generosity, patience...., he is my best conselor and teacher and best friend, he knows everything about me:love:, should I continue? so if someone know how good God is, and still reject him, and then I have no idea what kind of person he/she is, then he/she must want nothing to do with God

[Ocean-Blue]

Because God taught me something good, gave me love and light and hope. He is the best thing that happened to me, I cannot image if he isn't in my life, he makes my life here like heaven sometimes when I am in Spirit. I learned that God IS forgiving and LOVE. He also answers my prayers, he changed me from inside, he blessed me much, he taught me many things and even rebuke me if I do something wrong to others, he taught me good stuff: forgiveness, generosity, patience...., he is my best conselor and teacher and best friend, he knows everything about me:love:, should I continue? so if someone know how good God is, and still reject him, and then I have no idea what kind of person he/she is, then he/she must want nothing to do with God

 

OK...but this isn't about that person. I want to know how the notion of hell fits with the idea of an all forgiving God. Please narrow the scope to just that.

[lonelybird]

OK...but this isn't about that person. I want to know how the notion of hell fits with the idea of an all forgiving God. Please narrow the scope to just that.

because heaven is a beautiful place, full of loving meek people; so God has to figure out where to put those terrible people in so they cannot hurt anyone anymore, certainly he cannot put wolf and sheep together especially after he gave the wolf many many chances to change, so......you got the idea

[Ocean-Blue]

because heaven is a beautiful place, full of loving people; so God has to figure out where to put those terrible people in so they cannot hurt anyone anymore, so......you got the idea

 

Again, what about the all forgiving part? How can this God be all forgiving if he's willing to put something he created into hell for eternity? Where is the forgiveness in that? The bible discusses the souls that burn in hell...the gnashing of teeth, the screaming, etc. Clearly these souls are in pain and in torment...where is their saviour? Where is their forgiveness? Where is this all forgiving God? Is his love not conditional? Is his forgiveness not conditional? Therefore, he is NOT all forgiving.

[lonelybird]

Again, what about the all forgiving part? How can this God be all forgiving if he's willing to put something he created into hell for eternity? Where is the forgiveness in that? The bible discusses the souls that burn in hell...the gnashing of teeth, the screaming, etc. Clearly these souls are in pain and in torment...where is their saviour? Where is their forgiveness? Where is this all forgiving God? Is his love not conditional? Is his forgiveness not conditional? Therefore, he is NOT all forgiving.

so can you answer this? if evil people knows that no matter what they do, they still go to heaven, what they will do? If God forgive them no matter they repent or not, will they change for better (if they don't repent I don't see how they can change)? if they repent, then God will forgive their all sinns, but only if they repent

 

our sinful nature want to do things that is ungodly: selfishness, unforgiveness, strife, jealousy, bloodshed, adultery, lie, steal, grudge.....from beginning of human race till now we didn't change for better a little bit, but only God's holy spirit can change us from inside

[disgracian]

If your kids made a mistake, do you ground them, or do something let them know what they do is wrong, and they should take responsibility for their acts?

I agree. We should follow the Bible god's lead on this and throw our children in a pit and set them on fire for eternity for their mistakes.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

because heaven is a beautiful place, full of loving meek people

Either you're wrong and it's instead full of Christians (who exhibit behaviour every bit as despicable as anyone else), or you're right and it doesn't matter what religious beliefs one has (or any at all).

so God has to figure out where to put those terrible people in so they cannot hurt anyone anymore, certainly he cannot put wolf and sheep together especially after he gave the wolf many many chances to change, so......you got the idea

Because there's only good and bad people in this world, with nothing in between, of course. Binary is such a small way of thinking.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

But why did he throw Adam and Eve out of Eden? He should have forgiven them right?

Why do parents punish their children? God allowed them to continue living, yes? He could've easily done worse than throw them out of paradise.

Since the premise is false, it doesn't really matter.

That's only a matter of opinion.

If God is all forgiving, how come he sends souls to hell?

First of all, you must get rid of this notion that, "God" is the One Who sends souls to hell. It's the individual's CHOICE whether his/her soul goes to hell.

I mean, what if, when faced with the gates of Hell, one repents and truly mourns...shouldn't that soul get another shot (purgatory)?

Not when the Word of God clearly tells you and the rest of the world that faith in Christ is THE only way to pay your sin debt.

What if one was totally ignorant and didn't grow up with the right influences...and they made bad decisions in life. And then they die...and go to hell. What then? Is God going to condemn that soul to an eternity of hell because they didn't know any better?

As impossible as that is, (in today's day and age), I would argue that ignorance in this case would be bliss.....but only God knows the answer to that one...

I just don't know how Christians can reconcile the idea of forgiveness with the notion of an eternal hell.

What value would forgiveness have without ramifications?

My problem with religion in general is that you can literally pinpoint the moment in conversation at which intelligent people switch off their critical thinking skills and start quoting religious law to you. I was born and raised in berkeley, so if there's anything I can't tolerate it's the inability to think critically.

You're obviously new here and haven't read my posts. I RARELY quote scripture......(is that what you meant by "religious law"?).....and there are many others who post here who do not. Berkeley huh? I fail to see why you felt you had to mention that......?

Why do you think we have these dumb-ass kids who get married at 18, just so they can f*ck, and these psycho-girls who have anal sex but not vaginal sex because they want to stay virgins. I mean.... WTF?!

You just dropped 100 points in intellect.....you see where I'm going with this?

What irks me is that some people don't realize that a quote requires some further explanation. You need to set it up, provide context, and EXPLAIN it.

I agree 110% with you!! It hinders our very cause when Christians have diarreha of the mouth.....and can't back it up....

Like I said, I'm born and raised in Berkeley, CA, so I'm spoiled when it comes to intelligent conversation. Berkeley is a more liberal place as well as the home of one of the more competitive universities in the nation, and is thus more likely to have more intelligent people around than other places.

So, let me get this straight....since you're from Berkeley, this makes you intelligent? Interesting.....

With God and hell, LJ is sent there for ETERNITY by father. What the hell kind of forgiveness is that?

LJ didn't get forgiveness, because LJ didn't ask.

-i'll disprove their beliefs and their beliefs will be shattered

-they'll become furious because i threaten their beliefs and we argue

-the conversation will stop and they'll have no answer for the valid question i asked

Oh really? Well......I don't recall ever talking to you about religion.

 

1. You'll NEVER be able to disprove my belief.

2. You can NEVER threaten my belief

3. God ALWAYS has a valid answer for your question (you haven't been asking the right person)

But tell me, how do YOU reconcile the stark contrast between this notion of an all forgiving God with one that damns his creations to hell for eternity?

Again, God doesn't damn any of His creations to hell. His creations make that decision themselves.

I agree. We should follow the Bible god's lead on this and throw our children in a pit and set them on fire for eternity for their mistakes.

TOTALLY out of context.....again....

[blind_otter]

God doesn't send people to hell. It's the individual's choice to go to hell. Your actions are the ground on which you stand. We have free will, thus the opportunity to do right AND wrong.

[quankanne]

I want to know how the notion of hell fits with the idea of an all forgiving God. Please narrow the scope to just that

 

it all depends on what your concept of heaven and hell are. Even if you claim to have no spiritual belief, you still have some vague concept of what each represents, from a place with pearly gates and angels playing harps to a burning pit where minor demons torment you with pitchforks. *Everyone* has their thought of what heaven and hell are.

 

now, if you are among those who see heaven as a place where a soul is given the grace to be eternally in the presence and close proximity of God, then it would only be natural to think that hell is a place where the soul is perpetually parted from that presence of God. That there is an eternity of separation between the soul and God, and that the pain could be likened to pain caused by the worst fiery blaze, etc.

 

now, throw in the concept of free will, that man chooses his spiritual fate his actions or behavior reflects on his relationship with God. Sin – exemplified in those actions that willfully keep yourself apart from God – is forgiven by an all-loving God, much in the way we can earn ourselves redemption or make amends when we do something to violate civil law. However, even civil law embraces a "three strikes and you're out" concept … you cannot profess to be a changed man when you keep on planning armed robberies of businesses, and you eventually get the book thrown at you for continually deciding to rob those businesses and for putting people in danger along the way.

 

if we can accept – and demand – those punishments allowed by civil law, why should it be any different when it comes to our souls? A repentant criminal understands that his behavior has hurt people and he must make restitution for the crimes he's performed; why is a sinner any different in the eyes of God, who he also has a relationship with? Sinning without accepting or embracing the consequences to our immortal souls is like gleefully breaking the law without expecting to make restitution for the havoc you've wreaked. Simply put, you are responsible for your actions, even those made on a spiritual level.

 

God forgives the truly repentant heart, the one who understands just what he's done and who realizes he must heal/make reparation for the pain and hurt his sin has caused. A truly unrepentant heart is the one who willingly chooses the consequence of eternity in hell, much like an unrepentant lawbreaker chooses a life of incarceration for the crimes he's committed.

 

is God being unfair? Not when you understand that his actions are just and that punishment of hell is the fair assessment for someone who chooses to live outside the laws of God, much in the way civil law has been created to bring about justice.

[quankanne]

They believe something, and when asked to think about WHY they believe that, they have no answer, they just do. That's not critical thinking, that's honesty. Critical thinking tells them that their belief is incorrect and that's where the conversation stops. If they applied logic to their belief, logic would prove it to be untrue

 

and just who decides what it correct and incorrect when it comes to a highly personal relationship between me and God?

 

your "critical" thinking and logic can never define what is uniquely mine; my own sense of critical thinking and logic tells me that you're being foolish and illogical when you attempt to impose your values on me simply because you feel your way of thinking is superior to mine. It's not. Simply because you have no part in the equation that signifies my relationship with Him ...

 

[blind_otter]

I always thought hell was on earth. A state of mind that you exist in where you are without divinity.

[Phateless]

They believe something, and when asked to think about WHY they believe that, they have no answer, they just do. That's not critical thinking, that's honesty. Critical thinking tells them that their belief is incorrect and that's where the conversation stops. If they applied logic to their belief, logic would prove it to be untrue

 

and just who decides what it correct and incorrect when it comes to a highly personal relationship between me and God?

 

your "critical" thinking and logic can never define what is uniquely mine; my own sense of critical thinking and logic tells me that you're being foolish and illogical when you attempt to impose your values on me simply because you feel your way of thinking is superior to mine. It's not. Simply because you have no part in the equation that signifies my relationship with Him ...

 

 

That is exactly my point. There has to be a conscious decision made NOT to apply critical thinking to your beliefs, otherwise they would crumble. I personally value critical thinking more than I value ancient scripture.

[bigheartkindsoul]

Jesus was born as a Jew wasn't he?? donno I am Agnositic so best stay away from this one, def not my specialist subject.