I know my story is no different than most, but...

[VIP]

I'm always amazed at how many cheaters display classic symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder. Look at the following list of symptoms and tell me how many of them (only need 5) that you find in SOB's post's:

 

At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
   
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
   
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people
   
4. requires excessive admiration
   
5. strong sense of entitlement
   
6. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
   
7. lacks empathy
   
8. is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
   
9. arrogant affect

SOB, you've now got the diagnosis, all you need is the treatment...

 

I don't think he has any of those symptoms. Many here like to play a psychologist or have this "holier than thou" attitude. He feels what he feels and feeling guilty about it is just going to sweep the problem under the rug. He needs help understanding himself, any simplistic explanations and putting labels are just not going to help him, he needs help, not blame.

[bestadvisor]

So, what exactly have you already done with her? More than kissing?

[Mr. Lucky]

I don't think he has any of those symptoms. Many here like to play a psychologist or have this "holier than thou" attitude. He feels what he feels and feeling guilty about it is just going to sweep the problem under the rug. He needs help understanding himself, any simplistic explanations and putting labels are just not going to help him, he needs help, not blame.

Trust me, I'm qualified neither by education nor background to "play a psychologist". I am, however, struck by the similarities between this thread and another one currently in the same forum:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t127469/

 

In both cases, the OP's display a narcissistic sense of entitlement that seems to preclude any honest assesment of the effects of their actions on loved ones. The fact that they get pleasure or ego reinforcement from the affair is enough, in their mind, to justify their involvement. Most every married person has those occasional feelings for someone else, but they also have the ability to take the feelings and fate of spouses and children into account.

 

It might benefit both OP's to understand, maybe through MC or IC, why they see the world in such self-centered terms. Doesn't seem like an enjoyable way to live one's life...

 

Mr. Lucky

[RIDINGTHEBULLS1]

why deny yourself such ecstasy? you deserve a good sex life and ifyou cant get it from the old ball and chain, then get it from someone who gives you that attention..

[norajane]

why deny yourself such ecstasy? you deserve a good sex life and ifyou cant get it from the old ball and chain, then get it from someone who gives you that attention..

 

Really? Does he deserve a good sex life? What has he done to deserve one?

 

Does his wife deserve a good sex life?

 

I don't think any of us deserve a good sex life. I think we can create one for ourselves with our partner. I think we can develop a good sex life with our partner. I think we must nurture a good sex life with our partner in order to have a good sex life. And I think we give our partners a good sex life when we do our best to give them pleasure.

 

I don't think any of us deserve one, as though we are entitled to it for some reason. That's a self-centered, and selfish, point of view, as though someone owes us sex. It's a privilege and a joy and a hell of a lot of fun, but that does not give us the right to run around trying all the rides when we have committed to one for better or worse.

[IamASelfishSOB]

I agree, it's all about him. I'm always amazed at how many cheaters display classic symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder. Look at the following list of symptoms and tell me how many of them (only need 5) that you find in SOB's post's:

 

At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
   
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
   
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people
   
4. requires excessive admiration
   
5. strong sense of entitlement
   
6. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
   
7. lacks empathy
   
8. is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
   
9. arrogant affect

SOB, you've now got the diagnosis, all you need is the treatment...

 

My. Lucky

 

For crying out loud. I don't have narcissistic personality disorder. I appreciate your help, but I don't think you can delve quite that deep into my psyche from what I've written here. I definitely may have some self-esteem issues and my morality is in question, but come on.

[IamASelfishSOB]

So, what exactly have you already done with her? More than kissing?

 

More than kissing, but no intercouse, but it doesn't matter, it's not going to happen again.

[IamASelfishSOB]

Really? Does he deserve a good sex life? What has he done to deserve one?

 

Does his wife deserve a good sex life?

 

I don't think any of us deserve a good sex life. I think we can create one for ourselves with our partner. I think we can develop a good sex life with our partner. I think we must nurture a good sex life with our partner in order to have a good sex life. And I think we give our partners a good sex life when we do our best to give them pleasure.

 

I don't think any of us deserve one, as though we are entitled to it for some reason. That's a self-centered, and selfish, point of view, as though someone owes us sex. It's a privilege and a joy and a hell of a lot of fun, but that does not give us the right to run around trying all the rides when we have committed to one for better or worse.

 

Don't worry. I know good, thoughtful advice from bad. Kind of like the advice to go to the strip club and get hot for my wife. I'm pretty sure that won't go over very well either... at least not in my case.

[bestadvisor]

More than kissing, but no intercouse, but it doesn't matter, it's not going to happen again.

 

If it's oral sex, you have already cheated and gone way too far.

[IamASelfishSOB]

If it's oral sex, you have already cheated and gone way too far.

 

It doesn't matter. Kissing would be cheating to my wife.

[reboot]

"Kissing would be cheating to my wife."

 

To your wife??

 

"Forsaking all others..." <- Remember saying that?

[IamASelfishSOB]

Trust me, I'm qualified neither by education nor background to "play a psychologist". I am, however, struck by the similarities between this thread and another one currently in the same forum:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t127469/

 

In both cases, the OP's display a narcissistic sense of entitlement that seems to preclude any honest assesment of the effects of their actions on loved ones. The fact that they get pleasure or ego reinforcement from the affair is enough, in their mind, to justify their involvement. Most every married person has those occasional feelings for someone else, but they also have the ability to take the feelings and fate of spouses and children into account.

 

It might benefit both OP's to understand, maybe through MC or IC, why they see the world in such self-centered terms. Doesn't seem like an enjoyable way to live one's life...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Would my actions in this case be considered narcissistic? No doubt. Can you throw out a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder? You're not doing anyone any good by doing so.

[Mr. Lucky]

Would my actions in this case be considered narcissistic? No doubt. Can you throw out a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder? You're not doing anyone any good by doing so.

Again SOB, I'm not a doctor so I can't diagnose anyone with anything. I was being somewhat facetious with that post; I'm not trying at ascribe Charles Manson-like sociopathic personality traits to you or anyone else.

 

But...

 

Your actions and posts give the impression that you consistently put your self-interest ahead of those you claim to care about. Flirt with the women around you? Have an "everything but intercourse" extra-marital affair with an employee? Dismiss your wife's right to know any of the above so she can make her own decisions? You don't seem to have a problem with any of that and you don't seem big on self-examination to determine why that is. Your glib explanation that "I am a selfish SOB" doesn't strike me as containing the (in your case) necessary amount of soul searching...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Zapbasket]

Don't worry. I know good, thoughtful advice from bad. Kind of like the advice to go to the strip club and get hot for my wife. I'm pretty sure that won't go over very well either... at least not in my case.

 

Okay, that was me; sorry about that. I guess from what you wrote about how much license your wife gave you in other areas I thought she was someone who would be fine with your going to a strip club once in a blue moon with buddies. I just thought that might provide a venue for you to explore your fantasies in a safe environment (assuming, also, you have buddies who would generally keep you on the moral straight path).

 

My overall point, that I didn't articulate very well, was that it's not wrong to have fantasies about another woman, and if you channel the energy from those fantasies into ACTIONS towards your WIFE, you will quite possibly find a renewal of the spark you say is missing from your life and your marriage. You can regain your integrity if you think carefully about how much you want to do that: do you want to put energy into rejuvenating your marriage, or would you rather leave your marriage to pursue a different _____ in life? It's in deciding between these two choices that I think IC would be helpful to you: you said you're not much of a mental health treatment advocate; it might encourage you to view counseling, etc. as a means to regain logic rather than fall into an emotional morass. Counseling permits better partnership between a person's logic and his or her emotions--and it sounds like that's what you need most before you move forward with any actions that could cause others a lot of pain.

 

Hope this helps...more.

[whichwayisup]

SOB-How would your wife feel if the two of you watched porn together? That could revive the sexual energy between the two of you...Anyway, just something to think about...

[IamASelfishSOB]

SOB-How would your wife feel if the two of you watched porn together? That could revive the sexual energy between the two of you...Anyway, just something to think about...

 

We have. It really wasn't that our sex life was all that bad. I said it wasn't exciting, but I was never really dissatisfied. I always thought I was kind of lucky that my wife put as much importance on it as she did.

 

Looking back, I really was not all that unsatisfied in my marriage. You have to realize that I am 42 years old and have been married for 16 years. I have had personal relationships with other women and flirted on many occasions. I've fantasized about other women. It has never really been a major issue in my marriage. I have NEVER pursued an affair or EVER thought that I would have one.

 

It's just that all the stars lined up perfectly for this to happen. I said before that this woman's personality is/was all the things that my wife's was not. She responded to my interaction in a way that no woman has responded before. We were with each other enough to get to know each other well. This was also a time when we were very busy at work and not spending a lot of time with our families.

 

I can't think that my reaction to choosing the path that I did could be that unusual. The excitement and the feeling made me try to rationalize my thoughts and feelings every which way possible. How could anything that felt so good be the wrong choice? I know it can't be justified.

 

I have to say that this discourse has helped me in a way that I had hoped. My wife is not hurting right now because she is unaware that anything has happened. Her hurt did not seem real because it wasn't there. This has helped me visualize better the consequences of my actions.

 

I know that many of you think I should come clean entirely, but I still can't see how that helps. It is my intent to concentrate on my marriage and hopefully this makes me a better husband. I can't see how throwing our marriage into the lowest of lows will ultimately make us happier. If she finds out somehow, at least she will be aware first that I am attempting to make things better. It's going to be noticeable. I know some of you think that I just got by with one, but I still will have this hanging over my head. I no longer hold myself in high esteem. It doesn't feel good.

 

I still have the hurdle of this woman coming back to work, but I think I am armed with the right ammunition to make it work. There is a very good chance that she feels the same way. I 100% guarantee that if she does there will be no problem. If she doesn't, then I'll deal with it somehow.

[IamASelfishSOB]

Okay, that was me; sorry about that. I guess from what you wrote about how much license your wife gave you in other areas I thought she was someone who would be fine with your going to a strip club once in a blue moon with buddies. I just thought that might provide a venue for you to explore your fantasies in a safe environment (assuming, also, you have buddies who would generally keep you on the moral straight path).

 

My overall point, that I didn't articulate very well, was that it's not wrong to have fantasies about another woman, and if you channel the energy from those fantasies into ACTIONS towards your WIFE, you will quite possibly find a renewal of the spark you say is missing from your life and your marriage. You can regain your integrity if you think carefully about how much you want to do that: do you want to put energy into rejuvenating your marriage, or would you rather leave your marriage to pursue a different _____ in life? It's in deciding between these two choices that I think IC would be helpful to you: you said you're not much of a mental health treatment advocate; it might encourage you to view counseling, etc. as a means to regain logic rather than fall into an emotional morass. Counseling permits better partnership between a person's logic and his or her emotions--and it sounds like that's what you need most before you move forward with any actions that could cause others a lot of pain.

 

Hope this helps...more.

 

I know your intentions were good, just bad advice in this case.

[bestadvisor]

How would you feel if your wife did that to you with another man with a slight possibility of doing it again? Would you want her to let you know before it happens again and maybe going even further than what had happened or would you rather not know and let things happen?

 

Is it relevant to you or just some lame excuse on your wife's part that this other man is handsome, smart, and click very well with your wife? Step into her shoes for a minute....just for one minute.

[silktricks]

I think you shouldn't tell your wife anything. Your marriage will be irreparably damaged if you do. Usually if a woman forgives her husband, she feels it can never be the same anymore. And even though she said she forgave him, in her heart she didn't. This bitterness will drive you apart.

This is not true. The marriage will not necessarily be irreparably damaged. It could be, true, but it isn't a given by a long shot. The wife will have a complete understanding of the situation and be able to make her decisions about changes that need to be made in the marriage. She may realize that changes are necessary for her to make, and she may also have a change in expectations for the marriage. She may choose to forgive, she may not. She could be bitter, she could not.

 

I chose to forgive. I don't think I'm bitter, and most important, neither does my husband.

[IamASelfishSOB]

How would you feel if your wife did that to you with another man with a slight possibility of doing it again? Would you want her to let you know before it happens again and maybe going even further than what had happened or would you rather not know and let things happen?

 

Is it relevant to you or just some lame excuse on your wife's part that this other man is handsome, smart, and click very well with your wife? Step into her shoes for a minute....just for one minute.

 

I'm not sure I quite follow your question, but I am guessing you are asking if I would want to know or not. I suppose I would, but I wouldn't expect her to tell me. I would prefer that she tell me before she decides to cheat or just divorce me first. It's too late for me to do that at this point. It's not going to happen again.

 

By the way, it's not an excuse that the OW was all of those things, just a reason. There are no excuses. By the way, my wife has so many great attributes that the OW doesn't have. You might have missed that post earlier.

[IamASelfishSOB]

This is not true. The marriage will not necessarily be irreparably damaged. It could be, true, but it isn't a given by a long shot. The wife will have a complete understanding of the situation and be able to make her decisions about changes that need to be made in the marriage. She may realize that changes are necessary for her to make, and she may also have a change in expectations for the marriage. She may choose to forgive, she may not. She could be bitter, she could not.

 

I chose to forgive. I don't think I'm bitter, and most important, neither does my husband.

 

I wish more people, like your husband, who are/were in my situation would post on this board. Why do you suppose that is?

[bestadvisor]

It's not going to happen again.

 

By the way, it's not an excuse that the OW was all of those things, just a reason. There are no excuses. By the way, my wife has so many great attributes that the OW doesn't have. You might have missed that post earlier.

 

Are you sure it's not going to happened again? You wrote not long ago that you are not sure what's going to happen if this other woman won't stop.

[IamASelfishSOB]

Are you sure it's not going to happened again? You wrote not long ago that you are not sure what's going to happen if this other woman won't stop.

 

I am 100% sure it will not happen again without her knowledge. I am going to give my marriage a go without MC. If I am tempted again, I'm telling my wife. Then we'll go from there, but I'm not going back. What's done is done.

[VIP]

I still will have this hanging over my head. I no longer hold myself in high esteem. It doesn't feel good.

 

I think you shouldn't feel guilty. It's all part of being human and part of your learning experience. Actualy you can be proud of yourself for making the right choice.

[whichwayisup]

I have to say that this discourse has helped me in a way that I had hoped. My wife is not hurting right now because she is unaware that anything has happened. Her hurt did not seem real because it wasn't there. This has helped me visualize better the consequences of my actions.

 

The thing is, your wife isn't stupid. She probably has picked up on a weird vibe from you, a certain energy...That and some emotional distance, emotionally and physically. I mean, what if you yelled out the OW's name in bed while sleeping?

 

You have hurt her, the marriage and all that it means...She just doesn't know it ... Yet.

 

I know that many of you think I should come clean entirely, but I still can't see how that helps. It is my intent to concentrate on my marriage and hopefully this makes me a better husband. I can't see how throwing our marriage into the lowest of lows will ultimately make us happier. If she finds out somehow, at least she will be aware first that I am attempting to make things better. It's going to be noticeable. I know some of you think that I just got by with one, but I still will have this hanging over my head. I no longer hold myself in high esteem. It doesn't feel good.

 

She will feel even more betrayed, and think the OW dumped you, so you came crawling back...

The thing is, you are taking away HER choice in whether she wants to give you a second chance. To stay in the marriage or divorce...She certainly didn't get a say in you having sex with another woman! You took away her choice by going ahead and choosing to cheat on her.

 

Ofcourse you don't feel good. Imagine the worry of 'what if she finds out one day on her own...' NEVER say NEVER, your wife could find out from the OW, or someone she told (women talk, so if the OW told someone else at work, a close co-worker or something) or even her husband.

 

I still have the hurdle of this woman coming back to work, but I think I am armed with the right ammunition to make it work. There is a very good chance that she feels the same way. I 100% guarantee that if she does there will be no problem. If she doesn't, then I'll deal with it somehow.

You think or you KNOW? Make a choice and stick to it. If you 'think' you can or if you 'try' to stay away from the OW, you will end up cheating again...Gotta say to yourself I WILL NOT fall into the affair again. And, mean it. Not only words, but in actions as well. BE hard on yourself! MAKE yourself accountable! MOST of all, don't put yourself IN that situation where something 'could' happen again.

 

I am 100% sure it will not happen again without her knowledge. I am going to give my marriage a go without MC. If I am tempted again, I'm telling my wife. Then we'll go from there, but I'm not going back. What's done is done.

 

I hope you mean that...

 

Make that a promise to yourself. And, do yourself a huge favour, stop talking about the A, what happened, the feelings with the OW. If ALL of it is going to stop, you must never have personal conversations with the OW ever again. No alone time with her and if she does ever try to make a move on you, remember the promise to yourself...Tell her no more and walk away...