What would you do....

[OpenBook]

And if you were expected to lie, keep the lie, or cover for her....

 

That's what is so selfish to me. I'm NOT lying for anyone including myself. Why would a friend expect that from you and then expect you to love them unconditionally, that isn't being a friend. I have a saying that everyone knows. DON'T TELL me if its a secret that I have to keep from someone who needs to know. My DD has a friend whose mother is VERY strict. She is also a friend of mine. I have told them both and acted on it to prove my point. I don't want to know if I have to keep it from her. That's not a position that you put friends in.

 

I agree, to each his own. I myself am of the philosophy of, "Your good friend will come bail you out of jail - but your TRUE friend will be sitting there, right beside you in the jail cell, saying "God that was fun!" :D

[FireandIce]

And if you were expected to lie, keep the lie, or cover for her....

 

That's what is so selfish to me. I'm NOT lying for anyone including myself. Why would a friend expect that from you and then expect you to love them unconditionally, that isn't being a friend. I have a saying that everyone knows. DON'T TELL me if its a secret that I have to keep from someone who needs to know. My DD has a friend whose mother is VERY strict. She is also a friend of mine. I have told them both and acted on it to prove my point. I don't want to know if I have to keep it from her. That's not a position that you put friends in.

 

Well I wouldn't lie or cover for them but I also wouldn't go out of my way to make sure they got busted. I just wouldn't want anything to do with that aspect of her life and if that causes problems between us (meaning if she can't accept the fact that I don't like what she's doing and gets mad) then so be it. My friends have known me since Jr High and they are the ones I'm referring to when I talk about this stuff. We all have a very open relationship where we can discuss and even disagree with something the others are doing. It's never caused problems in the past and I doubt it would if this were to ever happen.

[silktricks]

I wish that I could say what lj said in many ways, but alas, I cannot. I have had friends who have been in affairs. I can honestly say that they knew very clearly that I didn't approve of their actions, but I didn't drop them as friends.

 

I feel that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and I'm not exactly proud of everything I've done in my life. I believe in karma and what you sow you will reap. It's not up to me to either condemn or praise, punish or reward. Life will do that

[justice]

I would tell her I would be there for her once it ends, but not to involve me in it at all. Don't come to me asking to cover for you, lie for you, etc...

 

I had a friend in high school who did babysitting. She ended up (at age 17) having an affair with the kids father (he was 43), and I couldn't stick around to watch. She was buddy/buddy with his wife, went on holidays with them to "help" with the kids.

 

Long story short, they got busted, marriage ended, everyone got hurt.

 

She and I parted ways after that as she ended up having another affair with a MM, again, doing the babysitting thing.

 

*I did tell her to stop, and told her she needs to go get help (she had father issues so that's prob. one reason why all that happened to her) she refused help, refused to admit that she did anything wrong. Pissed me and that was that...I did try though.*

 

 

I agree with wwiu, I would not have anything to do with the person until the sneaking and cheating stopped, if they needed help and support after the breakup I'd be there, but it would have to be a total and complete cut off of the mm/ow thing. BTW, I left my cheating mate, same would apply to friends of either sex. I don't condone adultery at all in any shape, form or fashion.

[NoIDidn't]

Bizzare.....that some people would drop their best friend like a hot rock if they knew they are engaged in an A but yet would take back their husband who actually cheated on THEM... Weird isnt't it?

 

This observation really isn't that great. It makes a huge assumption that the friend being dropped is the "best" friend. I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that they would just drop their "best" friend.

 

But needless to say, and this is not a snipe JMHO, if your friendships are outlasting your intimate Rs, you are investing too much into your friends and not enough into your mate. That could be why the intimate Rs keep suffering, IMO.

 

My best friend was having an EA for a bit, I just limited contact with her after telling her how I felt about it. When I played around with considering a fling with an Ex, she did the same to me. We both dropped the problems, not each other.

 

And a spouse is like the bestest friend EVER. Its natural to want to forgive them and try to work things out. You guys act like taking someone back means that the betrayed buried their head in the sand. That may be the case in some instances, but not in all. Yet another lop-sided generalization. Maybe we should start a (hopefully neutral) thread on generalizations? Hmmmmm....

[OpenBook]

if your friendships are outlasting your intimate Rs' date=' you are investing too much into your friends and not enough into your mate. That could be why the intimate Rs keep suffering, IMO.[/quote']

 

You may be right. But my girlfriends have NEVER betrayed me the way the MM's described on this forum have. And they've certainly treated me better than my own personal SO's have over the years (with one exception - my last serious boyfriend, who was a gem).

 

Sorry, but my money's on my girlfriends.

[Tsuki no Michi]

I am a OW but I will say this... you are living proof of what I say all the time: NEVER SAY NEVER... LOL

 

Amen to that.

 

However I have found myself in a situation where I was an OW despite all of my morals and beliefs. I refuse to believe that this defines me as a person.

 

I don't think it does at all. For myself this experience has given me a new understanding of the human condition. It's easy enough to judge others who have made choices you didn't (or were never exposed to), but much harder once you are placed in their shoes. That understanding does not make the situation any easier, I know. If nothing else, in the long run I think it makes us more compassionate people, something this world could do with a few more of IMO.

 

Would you tell them that they were selfish, callous, cowardly and lacked respect? Would you crush them further when they were in pain by informing them that their MM couldn't possibly have ever felt anything real for them, that they were just a cheap thrill and that any depth of love felt in the relationship was imagined or fantasy.

 

Absolutely not. I would tell them I understand and that if they just needed someone to talk to that I would listen. The feelings, both love and pain on both sides of an OW/OM situation is intense and very real, regardless whether people wish to believe it or not. Those feelings also do not define us, but they do make us more human I believe.

 

Would you disregard all of their postive defining characteristics which made you love and respect them and hold them in contempt for the path that they had chosen? If you had previously considered them to be loyal, honorouble and kind human beings would you retract these opinions and no longer view them in the same light?

 

Unfortunately I know many who would do just that.

 

TNM

[Shades of Grey]

Amen to that.

 

 

 

I don't think it does at all. For myself this experience has given me a new understanding of the human condition. It's easy enough to judge others who have made choices you didn't (or were never exposed to), but much harder once you are placed in their shoes. That understanding does not make the situation any easier, I know. If nothing else, in the long run I think it makes us more compassionate people, something this world could do with a few more of IMO.

 

 

 

Absolutely not. I would tell them I understand and that if they just needed someone to talk to that I would listen. The feelings, both love and pain on both sides of an OW/OM situation is intense and very real, regardless whether people wish to believe it or not. Those feelings also do not define us, but they do make us more human I believe.

 

 

 

Unfortunately I know many who would do just that.

 

TNM

 

You sound like a good friend TNM

[PoshPrincess]

Shades asked an honest question... I gave an honest answer. I consider what OM/OWs do as an act of evil, just as bad as what the MM/MW-cheater does. And when people are tolerant of unrepentant evil, to my mind the ARE "enablers", much as TMW has said. I don't allow people to use racial slurs in my presence without speaking out. This is just the same kind of thing in my opinion.

 

Jeez, may God strike us 'oh so evil' people down!!!!!! Better watch out for that bolt of lightning!

[PoshPrincess]

that some people would drop their best friend like a hot rock if they knew they are engaged in an A but yet would take back their husband who actually cheated on THEM... Weird isnt't it?

 

Oh, very well said Lizzie. I like it!!!!

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

Interesting topic SOG.

 

I was shocked at some of the responses on the thread. It seems some, define a friend by a single action - just one action - having an Affair. I dont define my friends in that way.

 

My friends are woman and men who have many facets to them. Many have supported me in tough times. They make me laugh, cry, give me companionship. We have been through many problems together and with the support of each other, we have gotten through them.

 

The one single act of having an affair would not destroy those lovely lifetime relationships in any way. I am appalled that some (LJ especially) would be so judgemental of their friends as to say they would drop them immediately because of their actions. I wouldnt be surprised that many friends keep many actions from those who are openly judgemental with them.

 

I will not agree that these actions are "evil". Ask my priest, he's been a great source of support and guidance and understanding of the human condition and the troubles that trip us up on our journey through life.

 

In my case, my friends have been rocks in helping me through difficult times such as my relationship with MM. Just as I have been rocks to them in other situations they have found themselves in. I have never asked them to lie for me, I wouldnt ask that of a friend. If my friend asked my advice about being an OW, I would be pleased that my situation would allow me to understand the situation she finds herself in.

 

Because those who have not been a OW rarely deeply understand how it does not come down to a "black mark on the soul".

[PoshPrincess]

Very well put, JNRR. I'm totally with you on this.

 

I was shocked at some of the responses on the thread. It seems some, define a friend by a single action - just one action - having an Affair. I dont define my friends in that way.

 

My friends are woman and men who have many facets to them. Many have supported me in tough times. They make me laugh, cry, give me companionship. We have been through many problems together and with the support of each other, we have gotten through them.

 

The one single act of having an affair would not destroy those lovely lifetime relationships in any way.

 

Exactly. If the friend was that much of a good friend to you then you would stand by them in most cases. Most friendships go through tough times and friends do things you don't always approve of. They are not asking for our approval but for our support and love.

 

A friend of mine started seeing an engaged man (EM) when my R with MM was falling by the wayside. Don't get me wrong, we did have our occasional falling out over it as I was concerned for her well-being for getting herself into a situation that, a few months before, she had been desperately trying to get ME out of. I stood by her through the whole thing and not once did I tell her 'I told you so'. I didn't need to and what good would it have done. At the end of the day, she was there for me through the good and bad times with MM. She came to see me, sat there listening to me cry, even put up with me shouting and screaming at her when she said things I didn't want to hear, but she took it all on the chin, and I could do nothing other than be there for her when she was going through the same thing.

 

Ok, we have brought our problems on ourselves and are not trying to justify our actions but we ALL feel emotional pain, the same as anyone else.

[Tsuki no Michi]

 

You sound like a good friend TNM

 

Thank you. I will be the first to admit I am no expert in human relations, nor do I claim to be. I do believe that the affair issue is not one of good/evil or right/wrong as some do. While I am a devout Christian, unlike most I do not define such concepts so narrowly as the Old Testament would suggest. To me "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is the hardest, yet most important commandment in my life, and one I struggle with on a daily basis. For instance (and for those who think it is straightforward and easy):

 

1. How do you love someone else and love yourself at the same time when you know the choice would hurt one of you? The easy answer is to always put others above yourself, but in the long run that means that you will suffer more than most and no one should be expected to always be the martyr for the sake of others. I do not believe my God meant it to be so.

 

2. To do unto others as you would have them do unto you is the same as the above. Would you want people to forgive you and to still love you for the person you are or would you want to be condemned and reviled? Saying that you would never put yourself in such a situation is naive and avoids the question altogether. Life throws many things at us, not all of which are predictable or as we would prefer.

 

3. When you fell in love with the person who completes you, how is it always wrong to force yourself to be apart from them, yet it is always right to stay in a marriage for reasons other than love? To love yourself would suggest doing what is healthy for you. In the case of what we are all here to discuss that would seem to be in direct opposition to what is in the best interests of the BS and or the MM/MW's family. To be honest, I don't see a happy medium here. One or all of you will be hurt regardless. It is the choice of *who* ends up being hurt the most that is the hardest, since very few of us who enter/fall into these relationships do so with the intent to harm anyone.

 

For myself I believe humans have an innate desire to lash out at those who hurt them, to try and regain control of a situation by making the offender suffer as they have. Subconsciously this may be a feeling that by doing so then they will understand your own pain and thus not hurt you anymore. It has nothing to do with love, for if it did then true forgiveness would be the obvious answer.

 

I ask myself why this is the case in marriages that break up (for whatever reason) and the only answer I have ever found is that it is one of possession. In a marriage the relationship itself is often viewed by one or both spouses as something tangible that they possess. When divorce/affairs happen that possession is then in some context taken from them without their consent. No one likes to be stolen from so that feeling is understandable on at least that level. However, it is not so simple within human relationships for we cannot, nor should we ever own another person or their right to make choices for themselves. If we truly love them, then we need to understand that sometimes they will need to make decisions that are not what we need or want, or that sometimes may hurt us. It doesn't mean they want to hurt us. It also doesn't mean we love them any less by allowing them to do so, but it does require a willingness to love them no matter what.

 

Regardless what some would wish us to believe, judging people is not love. It is an attempt at control, to make a person do what others have determined is the right thing to do even if it does not agree with what the offender believes is right/wrong. Judging someone is an means of forcing others into your own beliefs and opinions by either punishing (hurting) them until they give in or by casting them out of your circle of companionship, thus denying them the fellowship of the group (again, hurting them). Castigating others for becoming involved with a MM/MW as you have described in your original post is a good example of that. For those who have experienced it, it is a horrible, cruel example of how low a group is willing to go in order to try and force others to subscribe to their own beliefs. The unfortunate part is that even if you were to go back, repentant and on your knees, it is unlikely that you would ever gain the same position of trust within the group as you had before. Becoming "fallen" is permanent in many people's eyes and demonstrates that righteousness (pride), not love and forgiveness are why they do what they do.

 

Anyway, sorry for the rambling. This is just part of the internal soul-searching I have done over the years about why we do what we do, and more importantly why we continue to do it even though society would have us believe it is so wrong.

 

TNM

[PoshPrincess]

Brilliant post TNM. V well put and v positive!

[Ladyjane14]

And if you were expected to lie, keep the lie, or cover for her....

 

That's what is so selfish to me. I'm NOT lying for anyone including myself. Why would a friend expect that from you and then expect you to love them unconditionally, that isn't being a friend.

 

Exactly. Just as I said earlier... in hindsight, I realized that it was I who had crossed the line in expectation that my friend would cast her OWN beliefs aside and support my transgression. I'd put her in a terrible position, not only in light of her views on infidelity, but also because she knew all the players. I wasn't holding up MY end of the friendship at that point.

 

Now, I'm not saying that I don't have a handful of friends who I wouldn't give the same standing I would give to family members. These, I can count on one hand and are different from my other friends. These are sisters of the heart. But just like I said earlier, I expect they'd avoid me until their affair was over because although I wouldn't 'out' them... I wouldn't mince words with them either.

 

Anyway, I've put as much time into explaining my POV on this subject as I'm willing to part with. Enjoy!

 

 

 

(Oh., and just in case anyone's interested in what I "learned" yesterday... I learned that an infusion of marigold, garlic, rosemary, with just a drop or two of dishwashing soap.. will run the beetle bugs out of your beans. )

[annabelle75]

Brilliant post TNM. V well put and v positive!

 

I agree. As a fellow devote Christian and minister's daughter, I think TNM really hit the nail on the head with that post. Very well done.

 

 

After readin the last few pages of this thread a certain saying keeps popping into my head, "We friends like these, who needs enemies."

[jj2007]

 

do unto others as you would have them do unto you

 

I would NEVER get into a relationship with someone already in one and I would expect to be treated the same way.

 

Saying that you would never put yourself in such a situation is naive and avoids the question altogether.

 

I don't think so. It's called SELF CONTROL. I have had MM come on to me and you know what I tell them? GO HOME TO YOUR WIFE YOU PRICK

 

very few of us who enter/fall into these relationships do so with the intent to harm anyone.

 

I know a LOT of OW do.

[Tsuki no Michi]

I agree. As a fellow devote Christian and minister's daughter, I think TNM really hit the nail on the head with that post. Very well done.

 

Thanks. I have many theories on why we do what we do, that was just a rambling attempt at relating one of them. I will be the first to admit that at least in my own situation it helps somewhat to know there is a reason behind people's behavior, even if it is anathema to me. It still doesn't answer the questions I posed (that I often ask myself over and over again), but it does provide a different perspective at least. I am of the opinion that if more people were willing to try and understand others (particularly their spouse/significant other) and then work at good communication then there would be no need for people to engage in affairs, either emotional or physical. That they still occur seems to indicate that we as humans have a long way to go with regard to both communication and learning how to truly love the way God meant us to. JMO as always...

 

After readin the last few pages of this thread a certain saying keeps popping into my head, "We friends like these, who needs enemies."

 

The only real enemy is one who would try to turn you into something you are not, or who would put his/her own needs as more important than your own and attempt to force you to meet them in lieu of doing what is right for you. Certainly it may be right for you at times to do what they need you to do, but that may not always be the case. Contrary to popular belief, the opposite of love is not evil. It is selfishness. In the context of this forum, that is in no way restricted to the actions of the OM/OW, though many people think the BS has a right to be selfish since as I mentioned before it's a feeling of ownership in the relationship that is being taken from them. Who knows? All I know is that the hardest decision anyone will ever have to make is to decide between what is right for themselves and what is right for others. Again, JMO...

 

TNM

[Tsuki no Michi]

I would NEVER get into a relationship with someone already in one and I would expect to be treated the same way.

 

I felt the same way. Unfortunately I have learned that not everything in our life pans out exactly the way we think it will, regardless our intentions. I never intended to have an affair or fall in love with a MW, but I did. At that point no matter what I thought or believed went out the window with regard to our control over human feelings. I understand how you feel, but honestly I think it's a delusion that any of us have as much control over them as we think or would wish. Certainly it's possible to repress them, and many people do. However, it doesn't mean they aren't there or that we don't feel them. The ability to ignore your feelings does not make you strong. It only makes you ignorant of them. I know this is only my opinion, but only by confronting them do you gain strength and an understanding of your own needs and what you are willing to *knowingly* sacrifice. *That* is what makes you strong, when you know what you are giving up and still may choose to do so.

 

Saying that you would never put yourself in such a situation is naive and avoids the question altogether.

 

I don't think so. It's called SELF CONTROL. I have had MM come on to me and you know what I tell them? GO HOME TO YOUR WIFE YOU PRICK

 

For some that may be true. For others I don't think it is so simple. As I said, the ability to ignore what you feel does not mean the feelings don't exist. For good or ill I fell in love with the best friend I had ever had, someone who happened to be married to someone else. Was that my own fault for letting myself get so close? Perhaps. Unlike the men in your example I do not, nor have ever "come on" to any attached woman, and have turned a few down because I know what the hurt is like. However, this still does not answer the question of what do you do when you find yourself in the situation? As I said before, I don't think the answer of always considering others above yourself is the correct answer in all situations. It may be at times, but it may also not be at times as well.

 

very few of us who enter/fall into these relationships do so with the intent to harm anyone.

 

I know a LOT of OW do.

 

Then I am sorry for you and them. I personally know far more spouses who neglect/ignore their partner than I do OM/OW who intentionally try to cause someone pain. Which is more acceptable, to try and have your needs met even if it goes against convention or to suffer in silence the emotional abuse and neglect that society often demands due to kids, religion, etc.? I am the product of an emotionally abusive mother and I wholeheartedly do not agree with staying in a relationship if it never meets your needs. No matter how long you suffer for the sake of children, the fact remains that you still suffer and your needs continue to be unmet. At some point even the strongest person despairs. When you have reached that point I think you will be more able to understand why some of us who society would have never expected to do what we have done, voluntarily choose this path. I don't wish that experience on anyone, but it is what it is and I empathize with those who have.

 

TNM

[jj2007]

I felt the same way. Unfortunately I have learned that not everything in our life pans out exactly the way we think it will, regardless our intentions.

 

I know that I will NEVER fall in love with someone who is already attached because I think BEFORE I act and I think with my head and not my heart.

 

 

I never intended to have an affair or fall in love with a MW, but I did. At that point no matter what I thought or believed went out the window with regard to our control over human feelings. I understand how you feel, but honestly I think it's a delusion that any of us have as much control over them as we think or would wish.

 

I know it is hard to control your feelings but I have no problem keeping myself from acting on them.

 

 

 

Certainly it's possible to repress them, and many people do. However, it doesn't mean they aren't there or that we don't feel them. The ability to ignore your feelings does not make you strong.

 

Sometimes we feel things we think we shouldn't but they can be repressed and over time not be as strong or eventually go away. That does take strength. But if you continue to put yourself in the situations that brought those feelings about in the first place then you are only making it harder on yourself.

 

the fact remains that you still suffer and your needs continue to be unmet. At some point even the strongest person despairs. When you have reached that point I think you will be more able to understand why some of us who society would have never expected to do what we have done

 

I have been there and still trying. Before my H's affair, I would try to talk to him about what was bothering me and what needs weren't being met and why I was so unhappy. NEVER once did I try to confide in another man to "help me through my marital problems". I knew it needed to be discussed between the two people in the marriage and they would be the ones to try to fix it together. I would often ask him if he was happy and if all of his needs were being met and he always told me he was and they are. Then when the A came out he started telling me how unhappy he was etc. I never even knew he was unhappy because he didn't even tell me and then he tried to find that "happiness" behind my back with someone else. We are still trying and he regrets what he did but I know I would never let it get to that point even after what he did to me I still would not do the same to him. If things weren't changing and I saw that my needs would probably never be met then I would get divorced and leave. Then I would take time to heal from the hurt and move on with my life and eventually start looking for someone else.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger and certainly doesn't advocate having affairs.

 

I just find it hearbreaking that the acts of two selfish people can destroy so many lives.

[Tsuki no Michi]

I know that I will NEVER fall in love with someone who is already attached because I think BEFORE I act and I think with my head and not my heart.

 

The heart has a way of doing what it wants rather than what the head wishes. Those who have experienced that will know it's true. Those who have not cannot, nor probably ever will.

 

I know it is hard to control your feelings but I have no problem keeping myself from acting on them.

 

Actually you have it wrong. It is *impossible* to control your feelings. You are right though that in many cases you can choose not to act upon them. It does not, however, mean they don't exist and repressed feelings have a tendency to come back to haunt you when you least expect it.

 

Sometimes we feel things we think we shouldn't but they can be repressed and over time not be as strong or eventually go away. That does take strength. But if you continue to put yourself in the situations that brought those feelings about in the first place then you are only making it harder on yourself.

 

Perhaps. I don't believe they ever go away, but that's my opinion. I believe in many cases they fester inside of you. Medical doctors for years have stated that repressed feelings are bad for the health. So is the accumulated wisdom of humanity then more accurate than medical science that can prove when something is bad for you?

 

I have been there and still trying. Before my H's affair, I would try to talk to him about what was bothering me and what needs weren't being met and why I was so unhappy. NEVER once did I try to confide in another man to "help me through my marital problems".

 

I doubt you suffered in silence. Perhaps you confided in a female friend, or relative? Some people don't have those same support systems, or they are ineffective. That one person chooses to confide in a female friend and one a male does not make it wrong. Everyone confides in someone they trust. It's only society that tries to tell us that we cannot have friends of the opposite sex while married. Perhaps it is to try and prevent situations like this from happening, to remove us from temptation as you say. I doubt, however, that simply removing temptation eliminates the vulnerability to it. That you have never been tempted I am happy for you. That your husband was, for that I am sorry. There is an old saying that goes. "When we resist temptation it is usually not because we are strong, but because temptation is weak."

 

I knew it needed to be discussed between the two people in the marriage and they would be the ones to try to fix it together. I would often ask him if he was happy and if all of his needs were being met and he always told me he was and they are. Then when the A came out he started telling me how unhappy he was etc. I never even knew he was unhappy because he didn't even tell me and then he tried to find that "happiness" behind my back with someone else.

 

The failure of communication in a relationship is not the responsibility or failure of any one person. Anything can place barriers to understanding. Asking simply 'are you happy?' may be sufficient for some, but perhaps it is not for someone else. I am not excusing your husband for either not engaging you fully or perhaps not trusting you enough to confide his true feelings. But the fact remains that the main reason people do not tell others how they feel is because they do not trust them to be non-judgemental. Is there anything in your own behavior that would make him unwilling to trust you with *every* thought and feeling he may have had? Even if it wasn't you, then perhaps his perception of your possible reactions was flawed? Trust is a choice, and when you believe that your feelings will be condemned by the one you care about you are far less likely to reveal them to that person because when you condemn someone's feelings, you unconsciously condemn the person. No one likes to feel like they are a bad person inside, yet that's what guilt tactics are explicitly designed to do, to make someone feel bad enough about what they've done so they won't do it anymore. As I said before, it's a way of inflicting hurt on someone in order to get them to feel the way you want them to. That's why counseling works sometimes very well, it allows an impartial 3rd party to play go-between and mediate the responses of the other person.

 

We are still trying and he regrets what he did but I know I would never let it get to that point even after what he did to me I still would not do the same to him.

 

See, this is the perception, i.e. that what he did was "to you" or in other words, "to hurt you" as if the act was intentional. Odds are pretty good it was not, and the hurt to you was secondary to whatever drove him to pursue the affair. It doesn't make it any less hurtful or bad, but such viewpoints serve only as an attempt to change the focus of the event to something it was never about. I know many will say it's always about hurting your partner even if it's unconscious, but I think that's just a way to avoid having to forgive them unless they repent. Remember that forgiveness is not about the other person, it's about you. When you can forgive someone even though they are unrepentant, then I think you will understand what real love is all about. Love puts no conditions on forgiveness, but humans often do.

 

If things weren't changing and I saw that my needs would probably never be met then I would get divorced and leave. Then I would take time to heal from the hurt and move on with my life and eventually start looking for someone else.

 

Good for you. However, for some it is not so simple as the choice to leave or not. For example, children are unwilling and unwitting pawns in this game of adulthood we play and regardless whether we like it or not, there are sometimes very valid reasons to stay in a relationship to protect those we are charged with protecting, even if the relationship is not meeting your own needs. The question I would ask then is, is this relationship the way you choose to have your needs met? Is it meeting those of your children who studies have proven are often permanently harmed in a marital breakup more or less important than your own? Are you willing to forego your children's needs in the event the relationship fails? It sounds that way to me when someone makes such a cut and dry statement.

 

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger and certainly doesn't advocate having affairs.

 

Please don't misunderstand me. I do not in *any* way advocate having affairs. What I am saying is I understand how they can happen regardless our best intentions, and that they have obviously continued to happen throughout human history. I also understand what it is like to be in one where the other person cannot be with you. And I understand all too well how hard it is to have to choose between your own needs and those of others when you know exactly what the consequences will be in both possible outcomes. From that experience I have gradually come to one conclusion, that we as humans do not truly understand what it means to love unconditionally, or without reservation. If we did, then there would be no need for us to be discussing issues like this. JMO as always...

 

I just find it hearbreaking that the acts of two selfish people can destroy so many lives.

 

I find it more heartbreaking that selfish people are willing to go to such lengths during a breakup/affair to avenge their hurt on the other person. The simple saying of 'we have to work on this to "rebuild" the relationship' indicates that we allow a single event to define our love for one another, and that in order to allow ourselves to love the person again they have to *earn* that love and hence our forgiveness and trust. Sorry, but real love is never earned, it is freely given. Anything less is, well, it's just less.

 

TNM

[jj2007]

TNM we will just have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, There are NO EXCUSES for affairs and there never will be. Everyone can control their actions and learn to think before they act. Have you ever been cheated on by someone you have made your life and love dearly? If you have, I'm so sorry. If you haven't you will not know how it feels to feel your world falling apart around you. "rebuilding the relationship" is VERY important because once that trust is gone, you have to "earn" that back but I my case my H doesn't have to "earn" my love back. I always loved him and I love him still with all my heart. Why do you think it hurts so much? If I didn't love him I wouldn't try and I could just walk away.

 

 

It does depress me however, that our society is becoming more selfish everyday. Most people only care about themselves these days.

 

 

 

But either way, have a great day and I do hope that you can/have find/found someone unattached that is willing to give you all of them. Not just bits and peices.

[Tsuki no Michi]

TNM we will just have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, There are NO EXCUSES for affairs and there never will be. Everyone can control their actions and learn to think before they act.

It does depress me however, that our society is becoming more selfish everyday. Most people only care about themselves these days. Especially cheaters.

 

I can do that and thank you for your viewpoint. For what it's worth, I agree our society seems more selfish, but that may be just perception. I wonder if, since such things have been happening since the dawn of the human race that it isn't so much that we are becoming more selfish, but rather we are discovering that we never knew how to love unconditionally in the first place. Again, JMO...

 

But either way, have a great day and I do hope that you can/have find/found someone unattached that is willing to give you all of them. Not just bits and peices.

 

Thank you. I wish you the best and my prayers are with you and your husband to rebuild and reconnect the way you want and need with each other.

 

Sincerely,

Gary (TNM)

 

PS. My username means "The Moonlit Path" and is a Japanese concept referring to the unknown path we each walk in our journey toward enlightenment and understanding. May yours be illuminated by your love for each other.

[Cliche]

Off topic: JNNR, how are you? I've been wondering about you. I hope you're doing well.

 

 

On topic: I do agree with those who say they wouldn't want to be asked to lie or cover up for their friends. Neither I nor MM has asked any friends or family members to lie or keep secrets. I agree that a real friend would not ask a friend to do something so difficult.

[Cliche]

TNM, your posts are absolutely beautiful. I wish we all had friends like you.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful insight. I, for one, really appreciate it.