Author burning 4 revenge Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 This is not biblical, but way before the Middle Ages. Akiba is another one around 50 AD? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_MartyrsThe Romans were a nasty bunch. People like to criticize Christianity, but look at the Roman world that preceded it. I'd take Christianity any day. Islam, or Judaism too. It was an awful, awful world. And people can go on and on about Greek humanism, but the Romans loved the Greeks, they idolized them and the story you referenced still seems typical of the pagan world. So much for the Greeks. Thank God for the Jews. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 The Romans were a nasty bunch. People like to criticize Christianity, but look at the Roman world that preceded it. I'd take Christianity any day. Islam, or Judaism too. It was an awful, awful world. every group of humans that has ever existed has had its high and low points. humans are generally a violent and nasty species. you really cannot say that one group is better or worse than any other. try to think more globally. 著作権法の定める範囲を超え、無 Link to post Share on other sites
Author burning 4 revenge Posted March 13, 2007 Author Share Posted March 13, 2007 every group of humans that has ever existed has had its high and low points. humans are generally a violent and nasty species. you really cannot say that one group is better or worse than any other. try to think more globally. 著作権法の定める範囲を超え、無If one group gathered at the Temple to pray and the other at the Colosseum to watch people get eviscerated, then yes, I think I can make that judgement call. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 If one group gathered at the Temple to pray and the other at the Colosseum to watch people get eviscerated, then yes, I think I can make that judgement call. maybe, maybe not....eventually the Roman citizens did turn against the atrocities in the Colosseum and they were banned. And anyways...you can watch people get emotionally eviscerated on American Idol today. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 you really cannot say that one group is better or worse than any other. try to think more globally. I don't agree with this either. Would you like to live as an ancient Mayan and play a really fun game, followed by the ritual human sacrifice of the losing team? Or would you rather watch the Superbowl? Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I don't agree with this either. Would you like to live as an ancient Mayan and play a really fun game, followed by the ritual human sacrifice of the losing team? I don't know SR....would you like to live as an American in 1945 who dropped two atom bombs on Japan and killed 500,000 civilians for no reason except political gain? There is no difference even though 3,000 yrs seperate the two events. Japan was the "losing team". Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 you mean the jews back then were running around with suicide vests and flying planes into buildings all the while screaming allah-hu-akbar? I am not sure of this analogy. Jews in Jesus time did not run around to kill OTHER people. But followers of Jesus were killed by other people. BIG difference. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 maybe, maybe not....eventually the Roman citizens did turn against the atrocities in the Colosseum and they were banned. And anyways...you can watch people get emotionally eviscerated on American Idol today. Roman citizens' attitude toward Colosseum changed because one monk who was a christian jumped into the colosseum to try to stop the killing, he was died at the spot. Then later one king who was converted to Christian banned the colosseum. These christian mayter died in other people's hand in order to save soul. but Islam extremist died in their own hand and kill other people. I don't see same thing here. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I don't know SR....would you like to live as an American in 1945 who dropped two atom bombs on Japan and killed 500,000 civilians for no reason except political gain? There is no difference even though 3,000 yrs seperate the two events. Japan was the "losing team". There are so many problems with this comparison I wouldn't even know where to begin. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 There are so many problems with this comparison I wouldn't even know where to begin. why? its the exact same thing Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 why? its the exact same thing No it is not the exact same thing. You could compare the Maya to the Romans. That would make sense. You could compare the Maya to Geoffrey Dohmer. You could compare the fire bombing of Dresden to the atomic bombing of Japan. Those comparisons would make sense. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 No it is not the exact same thing. You could compare the Maya to the Romans. That would make sense. You could compare the Maya to Geoffrey Dohmer. You could compare the fire bombing of Dresden to the atomic bombing of Japan. Those comparisons would make sense. why? people are people....the only thing thats changed over time is technology. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 why? people are people....the only thing thats changed over time is technology. Curly, you're making me want to poke you in the eyes with my fingers. But I know you'd just put your hand up in front of your nose and thwart me. Even if one disagrees with the bombing of Japan, one can at least list rational arguments that were used to make the decision at the time. Arguments that are based on reason, even if you don't agree with the reasoning. The Maya based the killing of their own friends and family members on their "faith". You could not argue for it using reason. OK, this is anecdotal, but I remember a professor telling us this story: that there was once a tribe (in Africa, I think) and they were doing some human sacrifice, and there was a superstitious cause/effect link to the success of their crops that they believed in for years. There was a big debate among the anthropologists studying them whether it was ethical to intervene and tell them how the crops were unrelated to the sacrifices. Apparently when someone finally told them, they cried with relief that they didn't have to kill people anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 OK, this is anecdotal, but I remember a professor telling us this story: that there was once a tribe (in Africa, I think) and they were doing some human sacrifice, and there was a superstitious cause/effect link to the success of their crops that they believed in for years. There was a big debate among the anthropologists studying them whether it was ethical to intervene and tell them how the crops were unrelated to the sacrifices. Apparently when someone finally told them, they cried with relief that they didn't have to kill people anymore. WTF is this? It sounds like an episode of The Three Stooges Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 WTF is this? It sounds like an episode of The Three Stooges Hey! Lights out in cell 69! Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Hey! Lights out in cell 69! whoop whoop whoop Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 WTF is this? It sounds like an episode of The Three Stooges Glad I could finally find a way to reach you, Alpha. Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 This is a little side on on Iraq. The largest military contractor who the US has paid billions to in the last few years is halliburton. That Vary same company Is now moving it's World headquarters out of Huston Texas and to Dubai. Does anyone else think this is a rather slimy move on the part of HB? Are they doing this in anticipation of future congressional hearing on their miss handling of Billions of missing funds in Iraq? The last i heard was there was about 12 billion unaccounted for by HB. Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 This is a little side on on Iraq. The largest military contractor who the US has paid billions to in the last few years is halliburton. That Vary same company Is now moving it's World headquarters out of Huston Texas and to Dubai. Does anyone else think this is a rather slimy move on the part of HB? Are they doing this in anticipation of future congressional hearing on their miss handling of Billions of missing funds in Iraq? The last i heard was there was about 12 billion unaccounted for by HB. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114418&page=4 I already covered it, dude. It absolutely is slimey but it shows you where corporate America's allegiances are. Most of us sat back in the 1980s and early 1990s as industrial towns in Michigan got shut down and probably never thought it would come to this...but it has. I know you said you were ex-military. My hats off to ya. My pop and uncle were both military. You fought in Nam, right? My pop went to WWII and Korea, and my uncle went to Nam (twice) and Iraq. I'll tell you the same thing I'd tell them - the same thing I have already told my uncle: the world has changed since then and we're no longer fighting those wars; those wars were won. The "war on terror" is not a war for America, Topper; it is a war for the corporate empire that will emerge from America's ashes, and the ashes of countries worldwide. The sooner we all accept that we've been had, the sooner we can hold these scumbags in office accountable. This is not an anti-American rant (I am American, in case you're wondering); I'm ranting because there's so much bullshyte on tv (corporate owned tv, I might add) that people need to see what's up and judge for themselves. Me? I don't even so much mind this whole new world order thing. I think there is some good that can come out of market expansion. War is an unfortunate thing - you would know more than me. But if it's going to happen, I guess I'll take a war between superpowers and paramilitaries over wars between two superpowers anyday. But...I still believe that we are a democratic republic, and democracy hinges upon being straight up with the people. And the people need to know what is happening to their country. We need the facts. We need to be able to make informed decisions. If Wal-mart wants to use our tax dollars to fund new sweatshops in China and cost U.S. taxpayers their jobs, we ought to know about it and decide if we want to keep funding those tax breaks (not to mention keep buying from Wal Mart). If Halliburton wants to scam us into paying for a war, we ought to know about it. And oh what a coincidence that Dick Cheney was the former CEO of HAL and, wow, just happens to be the V.P. of an administration that sends us to war and uses taxpayer dollars to fund no-bid contracts!!! Our government is rotten, bud. Not just Republicans, I mean all of it. We are witnessing the decay of the American Republic right before our very eyes. Google: lex gabinia and lex marcilius...and also Google "Ostia". Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 yes i am a Vietnam era Vet. I do agree with you that as time goes on the government as we know it will be less relevant. We will be citizens ( for lack of a better word) of a corporation. Our identity will be not as Americans or Japanese or Chinese, but We will be citizens of General Motors, Toyota IBM, Cissco or China Inc. Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 yes i am a Vietnam era Vet. I do agree with you that as time goes on the government as we know it will be less relevant. We will be citizens ( for lack of a better word) of a corporation. Our identity will be not as Americans or Japanese or Chinese, but We will be citizens of General Motors, Toyota IBM, Cissco or China Inc. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, mind you. In a way, we already are citizens of a corporate empire. My worry is that the corporate empire is getting further afield, ahead of the game, and doing things that we don't quite understand, which fundamentally affect our quality of life, and what we consider to be our values. Let me ask you...I want to know if I'm off the wall or not. I know it wouldn't happen right away, but say in the year 2050 or 2075, you have the U.S. DoD budget funding large private armies. In other words, outsourcing on a massive scale. We already know the military outsources small jobs and I'm sure you'd know more than me exactly the nature and scope of their work. But is it possible that one day we could have a few big general defense contractors, which then subcontract certain things to their own contractors? It's crossed my mind. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I do agree with you that as time goes on the government as we know it will be less relevant. We will be citizens ( for lack of a better word) of a corporation. Our identity will be not as Americans or Japanese or Chinese, but We will be citizens of General Motors, Toyota IBM, Cissco or China Inc. I totally disagree TOPPER....if anything big govt. is becomeing a bigger part of our lives. In addition, the corporations don't have the power to tax the people...you forgot about that. Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 My concern would be we would have new style Feudal States. Much like the Middle Ages. Who would be looking out for the little guy? We already see large corporations running amuck. CEO make 40 million plus a year In that same year the average worker gets his health insurance cut back. Just think if this trend continues. Ad to that the Global chase for cheap labor. Governments and countries will be at the beck and call of the Corporations. The real power will be in the Board rooms and they will not have to answer to anyone. Governments will there to serve them and their needs. Again much like the middle ages you will have a class system. people will work at the pleasure of the Corporation. Get out of line and your toast. You will be in effect a non person. Oversight and playing by the rules will be a thing of the past. If this new world order trend continues I do see a very bleak future. We already have semi legal privet armies called security companies. Men armed better then our own GI are working in Iraq. A security firm might even have a vested interest in keeping things going. After all they can't make the big bucks unless someone is killing someone. I mean who would need or want protection in peace time? Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I totally disagree TOPPER....if anything big govt. is becomeing a bigger part of our lives. In addition, the corporations don't have the power to tax the people...you forgot about that. You can have the rise of a corporate class which runs concurrent with the rise of a bureaucracy; the two are not mutually exclusive. You could have a more authoritarian government managed by a corporate aristocracy. The French philosopher Montesqieu even says that probably the best government is one that is managed by aristocrats but one that appears to be somewhat democratic on the surface. But think about it, Alpha: Halliburton just basically pulled up their stakes and left. It was as natural as Boeing moving from Seattle to Chicago, and for much the same reasons. Economic reasons, but also because they wanted to send a clear message: they are bigger than the community which tried to govern them, and they are free to move and do business wherever the hell they want. They aren't the first company to do this, and they certainly won't be the last. That's the fight; that's the "war on terror". It's the rise of the multinational corporate elite who use their proxies to vote on their behalf in 'democracy' against the anti-establishment, who want more local control or more ideological control and refuse to join a hegemony based on the free market. Topper's right: this is going to look like the Middle Ages in some ways. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 But think about it, Alpha: Halliburton just basically pulled up their stakes and left. It was as natural as Boeing moving from Seattle to Chicago, and for much the same reasons. Economic reasons, but also because they wanted to send a clear message: they are bigger than the community which tried to govern them, and they are free to move and do business wherever the hell they want. They aren't the first company to do this, and they certainly won't be the last. . well thats part of the new world economy. many foreign MNCs have moved part of their operations to the US. Its all a wash over time. If I go up to Auburn Hills which is 10 miles north of me all I see is buildings with names on them like AkeBono and Yazaki and Noritake Industries, blah blah blah. And what about British Petroleum? They are all over the US. Even Shell Oil is not a US comany. Link to post Share on other sites
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