Iraq-Jesus Analogy

[amerikajin]

What about Japanese expansionism pre-WWII? What about the crazy suicidal Kamikazes? What about the evil slit-eyed Japs who would never give up their homeland so we had to drop a couple atom bombs to make them submit.

 

Yeah, good question: what about it? Where is it now? Look, to the chagrin of the Japanese, Asia wasn't especially keen to accept Imperial Japan as its colonial master.

 

That was my point: the Japanese analogy doesn't work; it was a different kind of enemy. It was a nation-state. WWII was one of the last of the colonial nation-state wars ever fought. The Cold War was a continuation of WWII, and in fact it was for all practical purposes, the Third World War. The Russians fought WWIII using an outdated system of mass production; the U.S. used mass production and new world order efficiency. The Soviets lost. The new world order was left to stand and march on unimpeded. In the time since, we've seen the transition to a new world order in which the elite throughout the world have created their own allegiances, their own networks, their own ways of doing business, and are all the while trying to influence politics in their own way for their own benefit. Most of us here are completely oblivious to what's happening. We're not oblivious to the effects of change, but the forces behind the change and the larger implications are somewhat vague.

 

But the death of the Soviet Union and "The Cold War" did not mean the death of the anti-establishment. Quite the opposite: it inspired an ever more fierce resistance to it in places that had been exploited during the U.S. war with the Soviets. People who had been 'sacrificed for the greater good' have longer memories than do we; to them, that the U.S. global hegemony prevailed was an insult to the memories of those who were sacrificed on our behalf. We Americans see it as an unfortunate means to a noble end; they see it quite differently, which is understandable.

 

What we are left with after the Cold War is the anti-corporate elite movement, the anti-global movement, in areas which have been to date not fully integrated as a part of the 'new economy'. You see the clashes in South America, right? Same thing as what Al Qaida has done, though the different influences make for different conduct, and different outcomes.

[alphamale]

That was my point: the Japanese analogy doesn't work; it was a different kind of enemy. It was a nation-state.

Incorrect, it was a different kind of enemy in retrospect. At the time (1940s) is was the exact same type of enemy that Al-Qaeda is now....and much more powerful than Osama and his cronies.

 

The point i;m trying to make is that every major enemy the US has had in the last century was totally blown out of proportion. The Japanese, Germans, Communists in China/USSR...Korea, Vietnam, blah blah. Ok well maybe Vietnam wasn't now that I think about it. Either way most of these threats were dealt with and after all the dust settled we found out that they were not really as powerful as we thought. Its all politics man. Time will show that the arabs and al-queada will fall into the same category.

 

Remember that having an enemy is good for the economy.

[amerikajin]

Incorrect, it was a different kind of enemy in retrospect. At the time (1940s) is was the exact same type of enemy that Al-Qaeda is now....and much more powerful than Osama and his cronies.

 

The point i;m trying to make is that every major enemy the US has had in the last century was totally blown out of proportion. The Japanese, Germans, Communists in China/USSR...Korea, Vietnam, blah blah. Ok well maybe Vietnam wasn't now that I think about it. Either way most of these threats were dealt with and after all the dust settled we found out that they were not really as powerful as we thought. Its all politics man. Time will show that the arabs and al-queada will fall into the same category.

 

Remember that having an enemy is good for the economy.

 

It comes down to money -- money is the alpha and the omega.

[alphamale]

It comes down to money -- money is the alpha and the omega.

i would agree...either way its fun to debate. most of the LSers don't care about politics and the impt stuff .....they're all too busy watching AI

[amerikajin]

i would agree...either way its fun to debate. most of the LSers don't care about politics and the impt stuff .....they're all too busy watching AI

 

Indeed. It has been real...but it's late and my face is about to crash onto my keyboard.

 

Later, dude.

[burning 4 revenge]

i would agree...either way its fun to debate. most of the LSers don't care about politics and the impt stuff .....they're all too busy watching AI

nothing is important

[amerikajin]

nothing is important

 

B4R,

 

Dude, I was watching this Nat'l Geographic special last night and, though I'm usually skeptical of the crap I watch on TV, this appeared to be somewhat credible. It talked about the origins of the Old Testament's story of Cain and Abel, which is most likely an oral tradition from antiquity. I'd read that before but this show gave it a more persuasive treatment. There are similarities between the Old Testament version and the versions of similar stories in ancient Egypt and among the Sumerians.

 

They hypothesized that the Cain's sacrifice (the grain) and Abel's sacrifice (the lamb) may have represented an ancient clash among farmers and herders struggling to settle what is now Iraq. This would have happened sometime after the agricultural revolution started, and they suspect this event might have been around 7000 years ago. It could have been passed down from generation to generation orally. As it spread among various tribes, it would have been the same story but the specifics would have been changed over time.

[amerikajin]

nothing is important

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070312/ap_on_bi_ge/emirates_halliburton

 

Figured I'd post this here, too.

 

This pretty much proves everything I was saying before. The nation-state is dead. American corporations are going to start pulling up their stakes and moving from country to country in the same way that corporations switch headquarters and move from state to state. They will think nothing of it. There is no more loyalty. In fact, you could say there is no more United States of America - at least not in the same sense we have thought of it.

 

What's emerging is a new corporate aristocratic establishment. That establishment seeks to expand capitalism and markets worldwide, and there is something in it for the common man who is enterprising enough to adapt to the system. There is no mercy for those who can't. The new world order will have implications that will change everything about the way we live.

 

But seriously, I think this is good news. The more this happens, the more people will question why we're fighting in Iraq and they will understand the reality. We are not fighting for the United States of America; we are not necessarily fighting for freedom (although I think it plays a role); we're fighting for the new world order, the expansion of the marketplace, the corporate elite, the aristocracy which operates under the cloak of democracy.

 

Our opponents are the anti-establishment; they are fighting against the expansion of this market; they are fighting this aristocracy. I think this is what makes it seem as though leftists might sympathize with their cause, not for what they do but for what they represent - because economic leftists seek to preserve a caretaker state in some form, which is something that will be eliminated by the new world order. Islam is merely a battlecry, in much the same way that "freedom" and "democracy" are for us. Mere buzzwords, hot buttons to push.

 

War is bullshyte.

[Topper]

Funny, I was just reading something on the history of Beer. The Author claimed that the discovery of Beer made man turn nomadic herdsmen to a Farmer of crops so he could have a steady supply of Beer. Maybe the story of Cain and Able is just the first recorded Drunken fight.

[alphamale]

The nation-state is dead. .

the nation-state was born out of human emotions, not logic. Last I checked there's still plenty of emotion to go around.

[burning 4 revenge]

To the original question? I'm not sure I am getting the point.

I was just making a comparison between the Judea of Jesus' time and contemporary Iraq. If you imagine the United States as a modern day Rome and you see the different Islamic sects as different Jewish sects in the Palestine at that time I think you can see some parallels that are analogous and maybe can help us visualize what it may have been like in a way. Judaism at that time would have looked an awful lot like Islam today.

[alphamale]

Judaism at that time would have looked an awful lot like Islam today.

you mean the jews back then were running around with suicide vests and flying planes into buildings all the while screaming allah-hu-akbar?

[burning 4 revenge]

you mean the jews back then were running around with suicide vests and flying planes into buildings all the while screaming allah-hu-akbar?

something like that

[alphamale]

something like that

i see.....

[burning 4 revenge]

What I meant is that the culture was ased on Mosaic Law. That's precisely what Islamic culture is based on.

 

Jews and Muslims call it different names, but it's the same thing.

[amerikajin]

I was just making a comparison between the Judea of Jesus' time and contemporary Iraq. If you imagine the United States as a modern day Rome and you see the different Islamic sects as different Jewish sects in the Palestine at that time I think you can see some parallels that are analogous and maybe can help us visualize what it may have been like in a way. Judaism at that time would have looked an awful lot like Islam today.

 

I'm sure the analogy fits in some respects. Christianity during the Middle Ages probably looked an awful lot like Islam does now. Christianity has also been extremely anti-semitic whereas anti-semitism among Muslims is a fairly recent phenomenon, brought on by the modern Zionist (Jewish homeland) movement. In fact, the very reason Jews had to be relocated to Israel was because they simply are not safe in Christian Europe - even now.

[amerikajin]

What I meant is that the culture was ased on Mosaic Law. That's precisely what Islamic culture is based on.

 

Jews and Muslims call it different names, but it's the same thing.

 

Well, they both believe in an eye for an eye, though I'm not sure if Jews believe in martyrdom the same way Muslims do - that's a powerful weapon Muslim extremists have at their disposal, which is the same weapon Christian crusaders used to massacre Muslims in modern-day Israel back in Medieval times.

 

The other difference is, American/Western forces are hamstrung by the newer more 'humane' rules of engagement, and the modern media, which has a way of exaggerating the slightest infraction and turning it into a war crime. The Romans did not give a f***k about war crimes; they probably murdered with smiles on their faces and a gleam in their eyes. Such were the rules of ancient warfare.

[burning 4 revenge]

I'm sure the analogy fits in some respects. Christianity during the Middle Ages probably looked an awful lot like Islam does now.

Yes and no. The Gregorian chant probably comes from Roman pagan chants and the styles of dress and the diet would have been much different.

 

Remember that Mohhamed created Islam out of Judaism and he preserved much of it in its original form. You cans see some of that in Orthodox Judaism, but even there much was changed in the diaspora, so I think that early Judaism probably resembled Islam more than contemporary Orthodox Judaism.

 

Israel was a theocracy when the Maccabbees fought the Greeks about two hundred years before Christ and the infighting between the Judaism of the Pharisees and the Judaism of the Saducees reminds me of some of the conflicts between Sunnis and Shi'ia.

[Storyrider]

Well, they both believe in an eye for an eye, though I'm not sure if Jews believe in martyrdom the same way Muslims do

 

Masada is probably the most well known example of martyrdom among Jews, but it was of a different sort.

 

And there is certainly a tradition of submitting to torture rather than converting, but I can't think of any Jewish suicide martyrs off the top of my head.

[alphamale]

The other difference is, American/Western forces are hamstrung by the newer more 'humane' rules of engagement,

you mean "more humane" from the point of view of the killer, not the killed. Killing by remote control from a distance still produces the same end result - death and carnage.

 

The Romans did not give a f***k about war crimes; they probably murdered with smiles on their faces and a gleam in their eyes. Such were the rules of ancient warfare.

Personally I think many of those rules of ancient war are still alive today.

[burning 4 revenge]

 

And there is certainly a tradition of submitting to torture rather than converting, but I can't think of any Jewish suicide martyrs off the top of my head.

Didn't that start with the Assasins in the middle ages? I'm not sure of any references to suicide martyrdom in the Koran, but I could be wrong.

[Storyrider]

I think it is important with this analogy to remember the Koran adds an element that makes Islam unique.

[Storyrider]

Didn't that start with the Assasins in the middle ages? I'm not sure of any references to suicide martyrdom in the Koran, but I could be wrong.

 

This is not biblical, but way before the Middle Ages. Akiba is another one around 50 AD?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Martyrs

[burning 4 revenge]

I think it is important with this analogy to remember the Koran adds an element that makes Islam unique.

Yeah, the theory is basically bullsh*t, but I still think that if we wandered into First Century Judea it would look more like the Middle East than people realize.

 

Women were veiled for instance. Men wore long beards and short hair. People followed specific bathing and purification rituals at certain points in the day. Everything in life revolved around The Law. The sounds and the smells would have been similar probably. Things like that

[amerikajin]

you mean "more humane" from the point of view of the killer, not the killed. Killing by remote control from a distance still produces the same end result - death and carnage.

 

 

Personally I think many of those rules of ancient war are still alive today.

 

They are, but it's a lot harder to get away with it, Alpha.

 

If the U.S. kills a group of civilians by accident, it has to convince the world that it was an accident. Granted, in this time of information overload, people have short memories, but with Al Jazeera and Al Arabia, acts of war and their consequences don't fade from their consciousness so easily anymore. You can replay a killing over and over and over again - even ten years from now. You can make it appear as though it just happened. You can make it appear as though many more people were killed than there actually were - and you can show it to them in pictures so that they believe the message, and react viscerally to it. You can inspire outrage and among many more people than you ever could back then.

 

The significance of this isn't felt so much in the immediate vicinity of the war, but beyond the war's borders. American business and political interests have complex relationships with people all over the world. U.S. forces can't just mow down people at will; it would injure our perception and inspire retribution. In addition to making us a bigger target, it would also compel some to use economics as a means of protest and retaliation against us if they think we are getting too cocky for our own good.

 

In Christ's time, though, Rome was the order. It was the economy. Rome's interest wasn't in maintaining complex economic and political relationships through a deft combination of diplomacy and force; its interest was in maintaining order using any means necessary. It would rather have done that without expending energy and resources on force, but when it used force, it basically had a free hand to do whatever it took to get their point across -- and that they did. I'm sure you've heard of the diaspora.