Wanted divorce, wife changed ways

[empty906]

This situation has more than likely already been heavily discussed so those of you who have some ideas, send them on.

 

Any POV accepted, just wanted some feedback.

 

My wife and I have been married for 12 years with an 8 year old son. We married young at 17 and 20(me) and the good times barely lasted a year. The next 11 years were spent fighting, constantly. We didn't hold back no matter who was present, including our son. Several moths ago I became friends with a woman and something was different.

 

I have always had mostly female friends and my wife hates it. Never cheated on her, I just befriend them quickly for some reason. I said that to say that having a new woman come into my life as a friend wasn't anything new or special. No big deal. I didn't think anything about it.

 

The marriage had sexually been held to once or twice a month, her choice. My wife hated sex. I use 'hated' because she has changed her mind(?) recently which will be part of my question. Sex was always, "hurry up and finish" with zero intimacy. I wanted sex twice a day and more love and touching involved.

 

So we had multiple daily fights, lack of intimacy, poor communication because I had withdrawn from her, and she would regularly tell me she hated me during our fights. I would never speak words like that to her but I certainly felt them.

 

I fell for OW several months ago and now have something to reference. Emotions and feelings that had lie dormant were now alive. What a great feeling!!!

 

Struggling with wanting to D and not wanting to loose daily contact with my son led me to talk to my mother who D my Dad before I was even one year old. My mother said our family is surprised we have stayed married as long as we have. She said it is obvious we do not love each other. Even my son asked me if we were getting a divorce a couple of times.

 

My son and I are great friends. We spend at least an hour every evening one-on-one. Sometimes we get more time if we doesn't have karate or piano or too much homework. My wife's family is in another state 11 hours away. If we D she will move home and take our son. I cannot allow that to happen.

 

So, daily I grew closer to OW and became more and more confident that she was who I would be with. Only she cannot D for some very good reasons. So I would wait until she could and then marry her, however many years it would take.

 

One morning I leave a note where W puts on her makeup telling her to wake me when she reads it. That morning I tell her I want D. She cried alot and asked why and I told her the main reasons were her jealousy, her trying to control everything, her not wanting sex. She asked if I would stay if she changed and I said ok.

 

She did change but was back in less than two weeks. So we had another talk and this time she hasn't gone back. She is not near as jealous as she was, she has stopped checking on me during the day as much, we have sex almost everyday, and when she starts to fight I tell her to go away if she is going to do that, I don't want to hear it.

 

Things are better marriage-wise but I do not love her. At all. None. I don't like kissing her, hate having to snuggle with her now, don't like looking at her, don't want to chit-chat with her, and just plain don't want to be married to this person anymore.

 

OW has stepped out of the picture to relieve the stress our relationship was causing on her marriage. OW has been out for about 7-8 weeks.

 

QUESTION:

I had already emotionally D my wife and when I brought it up I was ready to leave. Now that she has been trying to make improvements to the marriage I feel like a heel saying it isn't good enough. She has done more than expected and I still do not feel any love for her. She is not the kind of person I want to be with, our personalities clash big time.

 

I feel she is putting up a front out of fear that I will leave her and I wonder how long she can hold out. Can she pretend forever? Am I expected to also pretend to love her forever? Is faking it all we have to look forward to?

[empty906]

Oh, one other detail that I must include. The decision to D that morning can about as a result of W's terrible actions that almost caused us to loose our son to authorities. I fixed the situation with attorney fees and having locally powerful friends make some phone calls. She greatly apologized but I do not forgive her for that. Her actions hurt me, and my extended family, deeply.

 

Everything is fine now but the memory is there and I know what she is capable of.

[OldEurope]

Is your life better off with your wife or better off without your wife? Should two people be forced together in a loveless marriage? Should life be a constant struggle of endless fighting, emotional distance and physical repulsion?

 

Your posting answers these questions.

 

You separate, sort your feelings, then divorce. You do this for yourself because you, as you have concluded, need to and desire to. It seems you are both better off on your separate paths. As for the OW, time will tell, and move smoothly and without pressure on that front.

 

Life is meant for the living and not the living dead.

 

OE

[Reckless]

A divorce will mean you will spend less time with your son. You will have to face that as a consequence of a failed marriage. An attorney will help you to get the best 'deal' you can as far as access to you son - I'm not sure if she can take your child out of the State without your accord but a lawyer's advice is essential as a first step. You many have a case for custody especially as you mentioned actions that were detribmental to your son...

 

It will be painful, it will be ugly, you and your child will lose out on many counts. Think long and hard as to if there is any chance to rebuild before you walk away from your marriage. I think honesty demands you let you wife know where you are - short of spooking her into taking your son and running - it at least allows you both the opportunity to assess what's going on and decide what the future holds....

[Citizen Erased]

If you are not in love with this woman then I think you already know what you have to do. It is not fair to anyone involved for you to lie about this. It has taken 11 years but do you really think you can do it for another 30-50 years?

[Woggle]

Understandably you have quite a bit of resentment against her for all those years. Maybe the D bomb is what was needed to wake her up and maybe it was just a front. I you do decide to stay insist on counseling and hold her up to her promises. If you are planning on getting a divorce then try to go for joint custody. If her actions are actually putting your son in danger you might be able to go for custody. I would talk to a lawyer as soon you can yo get your legal ducks in a row. Good luck.

[Ladyjane14]

When making a decision about divorce, I think there's alot to be gained in reviewing the history of the marriage in an unbiased and unemotional way. A good post mortem of the relationship can not only help you in your decision-making process, but can also help you to avoid future pitfalls.

 

My wife and I have been married for 12 years with an 8 year old son. We married young at 17 and 20(me) and the good times barely lasted a year. The next 11 years were spent fighting, constantly. We didn't hold back no matter who was present, including our son.

 

So, right off the bat you got into the habit of speaking to each other unkindly, right? In hindsight, I'm sure you can see that this was a key element of the breakdown in communications.

 

I have always had mostly female friends and my wife hates it. Never cheated on her, I just befriend them quickly for some reason. I said that to say that having a new woman come into my life as a friend wasn't anything new or special. No big deal. I didn't think anything about it.

 

As it turns out, your wife's anxiety was valid. Eventually, your habit of bonding in friendship with other females has resulted in an emotional connection which superceded the marital bond.

 

To be honest, I don't think that opposite-sex friends is a good risk in terms of keeping a marriage together. The same-sex friend fulfills a need for us that our spouse cannot. But the opposite-sex friend can supplant the spouse by virtue of their use of emotional energy taken from off the spouse's plate. In essence, this is the same "energy" that is utilized in maintaining emotional intimacy with your mate, and it's being spent on someone else. "Friendship" is also important within the marriage dynamic, and a spouse needs to feel like they are your BEST friend. This serves a basic need for admiration within the relationship.

 

The marriage had sexually been held to once or twice a month, her choice. My wife hated sex. I use 'hated' because she has changed her mind(?) recently which will be part of my question. Sex was always, "hurry up and finish" with zero intimacy. I wanted sex twice a day and more love and touching involved.

 

This is a problem for ALOT of marriages. In fact, over the course of a long marriage, I would guess that nearly EVERY marriage will experience problems with lop-sided libido. For your purposes, I think it's important that you understand that this was NOT just your wife's problem. Your expectations were less than reasonable if you believed that "sex twice a day" was achievable over the long-term. Your wife only has one-twentieth of the testosterone you have, and her supplies begin to dwindle as she ages.

 

There's a big thread on the Marriage forum currently. You might get a better understanding of this problem by reading through it. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t101000/

 

So we had multiple daily fights, lack of intimacy, poor communication because I had withdrawn from her...

 

There are two kinds of "withdrawal" in relationship terms. One is as you describe.. the withdrawal of emotional intimacy from the primary relationship. There's a good article that will tell you more about this if you type into your browser the words, "the three states of mind in marriage, marriagebuilders".

 

The other kind of "withdrawal" is the kind of reaction a person might have if they are addicted to something and going without their "fix". The dynamics of Infatuation are often physiological. Our bodies produce "feel good" chemicals in response to contact with the object of our affection. Even thoughts about this person can result in that "excited" feeling. 'Butterflies in your stomach' or 'feeling weak in the knees' are common expressions to us, but they're also apt description of the effect of changes in our neurotransmitters.

 

I fell for OW several months ago and now have something to reference. Emotions and feelings that had lie dormant were now alive. What a great feeling!!!

 

See what I mean about "feel good" chemicals?

 

Struggling with wanting to D and not wanting to loose daily contact with my son led me to talk to my mother who D my Dad before I was even one year old. My mother said our family is surprised we have stayed married as long as we have. She said it is obvious we do not love each other. Even my son asked me if we were getting a divorce a couple of times.

 

My son and I are great friends. We spend at least an hour every evening one-on-one. Sometimes we get more time if we doesn't have karate or piano or too much homework. My wife's family is in another state 11 hours away. If we D she will move home and take our son. I cannot allow that to happen.

 

Realistically, what exactly does your wife have to keep her there once the marriage ends? Do you think it's fair to her that YOU are able to move on and be happy, but SHE cannot choose her own destiny? Do you think it's fair that she give up her child because the marriage didn't work out? Bear in mind, you are BOTH culpable in the demise of the relationship.

 

The goal in ending a marriage with children really ought to be in establishing a good co-parenting relationship which best serves the needs of the child. How can that happen if your wife is not free to utilize her support network and eventually become a happy person again? It's pretty difficult to establish a positive relationship with a negative person. If she's unable to get her own needs met while you're out getting yours... she's going to be unhappy and thus difficult to deal with.

 

It's a RARE thing for a person to get EVERYTHING they want. Most usually, in order to achieve one goal, you must give up another. Choosing divorce will most likely end daily contact with your child any way you slice it. This is a COST that you must prepare yourself to pay if you're going to choose divorce. And if you're planning to stop your wife from utilizing her support network, I honestly think you're going to need to find a way to compensate her for the loss, else you will find difficulty in establishing the co-parenting relationship.

 

She did change but was back in less than two weeks. So we had another talk and this time she hasn't gone back. She is not near as jealous as she was, she has stopped checking on me during the day as much, we have sex almost everyday, and when she starts to fight I tell her to go away if she is going to do that, I don't want to hear it.

 

So what changes have YOU made? It sounds like your wife has complied with your wishes and is making an effort. But what is it that YOU are doing that addresses her emotional needs more fully?

 

Things are better marriage-wise but I do not love her. At all. None. I don't like kissing her, hate having to snuggle with her now, don't like looking at her, don't want to chit-chat with her, and just plain don't want to be married to this person anymore.

 

OW has stepped out of the picture to relieve the stress our relationship was causing on her marriage. OW has been out for about 7-8 weeks.

 

Again, this sounds very much like the two different kinds of "withdrawal" I mentioned to you earlier. Both types CAN be resolved with a proactive approach. It's not impossible that your feelings for your wife could return. This will only happen though if you apply yourself to the problem. Resentments MUST be resolved in order to forward progress in restoring the love to your marriage.

 

I've been married myself for nearly 25 years. And from personal experience, I KNOW this is possible because it's been accomplished in my own marriage. My husband once felt about me very much as you have described your feelings toward your wife.

 

I'm not telling you what you ought to do... but you need to know that even in the crappiest marriages, NOTHING is impossible.

 

I feel she is putting up a front out of fear that I will leave her and I wonder how long she can hold out. Can she pretend forever? Am I expected to also pretend to love her forever? Is faking it all we have to look forward to?

 

Her changes are not necessarily a pretense. They may be very real on her part. That said, they are unsustainable unless you start fulfilling her emotional needs as well. You can't do that if YOU are faking. At some point, you will need to emotionally reinvest, or she will have to withdraw.

[dilly]

Yep. Opposite sex friend. Although mine ended up just wanting friendship, otherwise the stories are similar.

 

I'm in your same boat. I want to try with my wife, we actually had sort of a heart to heart last night but I didn't make any headway. She just started laughing hysterically and couldn't stop. I finally just got up and left our room and slept in one of our kids bunk beds. So if thats not mental I don't know what is. The point is, I really want to try but I just can't go through it all the way. I really just can't force myself to love her although thats what i want to do, I really do! I want to try a separation because i feel thats going to be a wakeup call for her and if we reconcile she wont take me for granted anymore.

 

She may be trying to change, but in my own experience, and I guess yours, it never lasts.

 

I'll be watching this thread as those are the same issues I'm going through.

[empty906]

Thanks for all the great responses! I will go back and comment or add something to what you all have said but I want to add another detail to shed so light on where I may be coming from.

 

The OW, being such a good friend, tried hard to help me repair my marriage. She is trapped in hers and cannot get out of it without losing her children so she is staying no matter what. So she tried to teach me her technique for staying in a terrible marriage you feel you should stay in. You pretend. You fake it. Everyday is like a actor in a movie where you know the plot and you know your lines.

 

And I sat back and watched her 'act' each day and cope with the hard blows she was dealt, much, much worse than anything I ever had to face. So if she could do it in those tough times surely I could do it with my marriage.

 

And it works. It doesn't cause me to love her by any means but it does make things bearable and easier. I never have lied to my W until here recently. Now that I act I find myself lying and faking and not being who I really am. Saying things I do not mean and not saying it from the heart. For this coming Valentine's Day I found it very hard just writing 'I love you' on the card.

 

But before I started faking things were so stressful. She began making her changes and I began mine. She thinks things are grand and are better than they have ever been. Man, is she deceived. She has no idea I am 100% withdrawn emotionally and could walk away on a moments notice without thinking twice. <sigh>

 

I just wanted to add the whole faking thing to see if some of you have found yourselves doing the same thing.

 

Thanks!!

[empty906]

Is your life better off with your wife or better off without your wife? Should two people be forced together in a loveless marriage?

 

It seems you are both better off on your separate paths. As for the OW, time will tell, and move smoothly and without pressure on that front.

 

Life is meant for the living and not the living dead.

 

OE

Two people sholdn't be forced to live with each other since our society here in America doesn't require arranged marriages. I chose her and nobody made me marry her but I wish I had waited until I was older. I know I would be much better off away form her but she would be devistated. She is very dependent and her job doesn't pay her enough to maintain the lifestyle she has grown accustomed to. She would move away from here if we did D so I wouldn't have to see her if I could gain full custody of our son. Which would be very difficult without getting dirty.

 

As for the OW, I sure have been missing her today. Badly. There is friend of my W who looks very much like the OW. We saw her Monday night and it got me stirred up. I am struggling fighting off the desire to email her tonight so she will have a messgae from me when she wakes up.

[empty906]

A divorce will mean you will spend less time with your son. You will have to face that as a consequence of a failed marriage.

 

It will be painful, it will be ugly, you and your child will lose out on many counts. Think long and hard as to if there is any chance to rebuild before you walk away from your marriage.

 

My son is the anchor for me. He and I are very close. He isn't very close to my W due to her not spending much time with him. I have tried to get her to spend some one-on-one time with him over the years but she really doesn't want to for whatever reason.

 

I think honesty demands you let you wife know where you are - short of spooking her into taking your son and running - it at least allows you both the opportunity to assess what's going on and decide what the future holds....

 

Let her know?!? Are you serious? After all the faking and her making so many changes I tell her that I still want a divorce? I think the faking is better for my son than the way we were before. Do you not? I am thinking that if I told her that I have no love for her anymore and I am only sticking around until my son either turns 18 or gets old enough to decide which parent he wants to live with that she would freak out. She is bi-polar and the medicine she is taking now made the difference, I think, with her personality change. That and my telling her I wanted to leave. That kind of news might just push her over the edge.

 

If you are not in love with this woman then I think you already know what you have to do. It is not fair to anyone involved for you to lie about this. It has taken 11 years but do you really think you can do it for another 30-50 years?

 

Actually, I don't think I can hold up for that many years. No way. It is starting to loose it's attractiveness with me and it has only been a few months. She does have a lot of health problems and has said for years that she would die before me so I guess you never know how things may work out. (That sounds much worse than I want it to but I don't know a better way to word it)

 

I you do decide to stay insist on counseling and hold her up to her promises. If you are planning on getting a divorce then try to go for joint custody.

 

I went to the attorney's office twice to draw up the papers but called the OW on the way and she talked me out of it both times. (I must have subconsciencely wanted her to) As for the counseling, I think the big problem in our marriage right now is me, I don't love her. Counseling would reveal that and I already said how I think that might have very negative effects.

 

I want to try with my wife, we actually had sort of a heart to heart last night but I didn't make any headway. She just started laughing hysterically and couldn't stop.

 

The point is, I really want to try but I just can't go through it all the way. I really just can't force myself to love her although thats what i want to do, I really do! I want to try a separation because i feel thats going to be a wakeup call for her and if we reconcile she wont take me for granted anymore.

 

I responded to one of your other posts, Dilly. I am glad to read you did feel good enough about what you wanted to do to actually confront your W but it is disappointing to see she reacted the way she did.

 

I talked with my W about a seperation and she understood. She was going to go to her family's area for a few weeks 11 hours away. That was during all the attorney crap I was jumping through hoops for trying to keep my son out of the state's hands. There was another harder blow just prior to that stunt she pulled which really pissed me off. Then she did this one with our son. She went as far as anyone could push my forgiveness. I am really surprised I stayed through it but I made it and I still have my son with me every evening.

 

But for you, Dilly, you want to love your W. That says a lot for you right there. What did the OW think about a seperation? Or did you ever discuss that with her? Also, has the OW ever contacted you since you told her how you felt?

[dilly]

Hey empty

 

the OW, or my actually told me that I should seperate because she saw my situation and always told me that you only live once so make it the best you can. She didn't take her own advice though, as she wanted to separate on numerous occasions but didn't. Actually, she said they were seperated at one point but still living in the same house. I always told the OW to work it out with her husband. (i really didn't want it to work out, honestly) I didn't want to be the one to blame if they did leave each other.

 

Nope, NC with OW for about a week.

 

I erased her phone number from my cell phone today.

 

Thats a tough call for you bud. just as you said. Can you imagine staying together for the next 30 -40- 50 years?

 

I've actually had a change of heart with my W. Don't ask me why - i really don't know - I am trying really hard to Love her and keep my marriage intact. I actually don't want to talk to my OW. They'll just bring up those old feelings again and with time , they'll just be fond memories. My W just doesn't seem interested in changing, at least your W is amaking an effort to change. that's gotta count for something.

 

I hope the seperation works wonders. You'll know where you stand on your marriage. The flip side is she could also figure out where she stands and leave you. But I think that may be secretly what you are hoping for.

[empty906]

So, right off the bat you got into the habit of speaking to each other unkindly, right? In hindsight, I'm sure you can see that this was a key element of the breakdown in communications.

 

Yes. I completely agree. Both at fault on this one for sure.

 

As it turns out, your wife's anxiety was valid. Eventually, your habit of bonding in friendship with other females has resulted in an emotional connection which superceded the marital bond.

 

To be honest, I don't think that opposite-sex friends is a good risk in terms of keeping a marriage together. The same-sex friend fulfills a need for us that our spouse cannot. But the opposite-sex friend can supplant the spouse by virtue of their use of emotional energy taken from off the spouse's plate. In essence, this is the same "energy" that is utilized in maintaining emotional intimacy with your mate, and it's being spent on someone else. "Friendship" is also important within the marriage dynamic, and a spouse needs to feel like they are your BEST friend. This serves a basic need for admiration within the relationship.

 

When we married I shed all my female friends (which left very few people to hang with) and she had my undivided attention. We have moved several times and I have no contact with those old friends anymore. However, when she withdrew early in our marriage I waited several years and then slowly started back with friend making. It was hush-hush but by now it is wide open. Many opposite-sex friends now (some she knows, some she never will). And you are right, they do fill some sort of void although there is no sex involved with any of them. They're just friends. They give me the attention and 'fun' that I had with my W but is long gone now.

 

My W actually was my best friend when we married. After shedding almost all of my friends and then moving she was my only close friend so I don't know exactly how long we were really in 'best friends' mode.

 

I have several male friends but it is so much easier to talk with a female. Guys are too busy and sometimes I don't want to talk about guy stuff.

 

Your expectations were less than reasonable if you believed that "sex twice a day" was achievable over the long-term. Your wife only has one-twentieth of the testosterone you have, and her supplies begin to dwindle as she ages.

 

That must have come across wrong, sorry. I never expected sex twice day, that was there for reference. She wanted twice a year, I wanted twice a day, we ended up with about twice a month.

 

But now she is wanting sex everyday. Weird. Or she is saying she does. I think is part of her faking rather than a phsyical overnight miracle change. I can't fake my side forever and I know she won't hold out much longer before she will grow tired of faking.

 

Lies, lies, lies.

 

Realistically, what exactly does your wife have to keep her there once the marriage ends? Do you think it's fair to her that YOU are able to move on and be happy, but SHE cannot choose her own destiny? Do you think it's fair that she give up her child because the marriage didn't work out? Bear in mind, you are BOTH culpable in the demise of the relationship.

 

Fair? D isn't fair to anyone, from what I can see and in my childhood experiences with my father on his 4th W and my mom on her 3rd H. Ugly stuff.

 

If she can't move on that is not my problem. Is it? She stays because she is a very dependent personality. She won't ever leave from what I can tell. But she is free to leave, no one is making her stay.

 

With our son being so close to me I can't help but wonder if she wouldn't just walk away from him. I don't know how to ask that question but if she didn't want a custody battle then that would change everything!

 

The goal in ending a marriage with children really ought to be in establishing a good co-parenting relationship which best serves the needs of the child. How can that happen if your wife is not free to utilize her support network and eventually become a happy person again? It's pretty difficult to establish a positive relationship with a negative person. If she's unable to get her own needs met while you're out getting yours... she's going to be unhappy and thus difficult to deal with.

 

Huh? Her support network? I don't see me being negative at all here. The exact opposite would be the case. That is the whole premise behind the faking.

 

I am out getting my needs met because she refused to offer any action towards addressing those needs. She went cold way, way before I did. Really. Then I went out to re-establish a friend network and slipped up and fell for one of them.

 

It's a RARE thing for a person to get EVERYTHING they want. Most usually, in order to achieve one goal, you must give up another.

 

I completely agree and think it is selfish to think otherwise.

 

So what changes have YOU made? It sounds like your wife has complied with your wishes and is making an effort. But what is it that YOU are doing that addresses her emotional needs more fully?

 

Well, for what it is worth, I stayed when she made a couple of very devastating mistakes. I had solid grounds for divorce gaining full custody and might could have even gone so far as to have her contact limited by court for a defined period of time. But I didn't. I let it go, or rather held it inside.

 

I provide her with the lifestyle she wants. She goes clothes shopping whenever and buys whatever. She goes out with friends and doesn't think twice about how much she is spending. I give her a stable home environment. I pay all the bills, maintain the home and vehicles, and help with household chores and homework. I take the brunt of the stresses and she just coasts through oblivious to what is involved to create her world.

 

I have never cheated on her.

 

For her emotional needs? I couldn't care less right now. I will continue to maintain the outward shell of our marriage but it's the core stuff that I am through with. A big part of the faking comes into play dealing with her emotions. She used to use them to control me and now I ignore them. In my opinion, I would need to have a love for that person in order to begin meeting thier emotional needs.

 

Think about a few of the opposite-sex friends, there are only a couple who I would attempt to meet emotional needs. That is dangerous territory. But those that I would mean a lot to me. I honestly do care deeply enough for them that I am willing to open that door. I honestly don't care for my W on that level. In fact, I find it annoying with my W and a major concern when it is the OW.

 

And I am not trying to justify my actions at all.

 

It's not impossible that your feelings for your wife could return. This will only happen though if you apply yourself to the problem. Resentments MUST be resolved in order to forward progress in restoring the love to your marriage.

 

I'm not telling you what you ought to do... but you need to know that even in the crappiest marriages, NOTHING is impossible.

 

Do you believe that last part is true? Anything is possible? I don't know. I think a spouse can cross a line that the other spouse has drawn in his heart and the compromised spouse closes the door. It is over then and I don't see that door being reopened just because the other spouse says, 'Sorry'. If I reveal that I am still pissed about all that went down there isn't anything she can do or say except 'sorry'. That doesn't mean crap! 'Sorry' clears the offending party and leaves the offended to clean up the whole mess. Well, it isn't that easy.

 

Her changes are not necessarily a pretense. They may be very real on her part. That said, they are unsustainable unless you start fulfilling her emotional needs as well. You can't do that if YOU are faking. At some point, you will need to emotionally reinvest, or she will have to withdraw.

 

Emotionally reinvesting is something I have no desire to do. I don't want to unite with her. Faking seems to be the much more attractive choice between the two. Emotionally reinvesting requires tremendous forgiveness on my part and then dealing with remainder of her crap that doesn't quite make the transition over to niceness. Then I see things progress back to where we are now again in another ten years. We are very different people now, and so young when we married.

 

She isn't even someone I would be friends with if I was married to someone else. Really. We just see things so differently. We are only now choosing not to argue about them. I do my thing and when she disagrees I tell her I am doing it anyways. And she does the same. No team work. No partnership. More like roommates.

[empty906]

I erased her phone number from my cell phone today.

 

Ouch. I haven't taken that step yet and really don't want to. Man, that is a step towards closure with OW. I know that is really tough on you and you are making a big move switching gears and focusing on your W like you are. Very impressive.

 

Thats a tough call for you bud. just as you said. Can you imagine staying together for the next 30 -40- 50 years?

 

Scary.

 

I've actually had a change of heart with my W. Don't ask me why - i really don't know - I am trying really hard to Love her and keep my marriage intact. I actually don't want to talk to my OW. They'll just bring up those old feelings again and with time , they'll just be fond memories.

 

Bringing up those old feelings is why I really shouldn't contact OW. When I called her a few days ago on the way to a meeting it was so nice. Wow. I fought contacting her all day today. So far I haven't...

 

My W just doesn't seem interested in changing, at least your W is amaking an effort to change. that's gotta count for something.

 

It should, and does, but it isn't what I am wanting apparently. Unfair as it is, there isn't anything I can think of that would change things at this point.

 

I hope the seperation works wonders. You'll know where you stand on your marriage. The flip side is she could also figure out where she stands and leave you. But I think that may be secretly what you are hoping for.

 

We aren't talking about the seperation now. That was a couple of months ago. But she did leave for a week on a trip and that was nice.

[dilly]

Empty,

 

I think I know what happened to me to warrant such a shift in my thinking. I was reading Ilmw's post on LS (you know, the one with over 400 posts) the other night and i felt so bad for him that I in turn thought how bad it would devastate my wife if i left her. However bad our relationship is, i think she still cares quite a bit for me, although she doesn't show it. Okay, i may be dead wrong here, Women..sheeez.

 

Just recently she admitted to really liking some guy (whose name she doesn't know but drives a lexus) at the gym we both frequent. Its been a running joke with me giving her crap when she goes to the gym. "so hows lexus boy? huh? Lately though, she's really been acting wierd, and when she gets back from the gym she's a little more flushed than usual..I may be reading into it too much but why would she taunt me with the knowledge she likes some guy at the gym? Just trying to make me jealous you suppose? i almost want her to have an affair. Is that crazy? I guess than she would have made the first move...

 

honestly, I just am pissed at the OW for the NC. I thought we could have still been friends but apparently she must have completely freaked out about the whole situation. i was tempted today to write one last e-mail telling her that I was letting her go once and for all. To thank her for her friendship and everything else, blah blah blah. hope to friends in the future...but i know I'd be doing it out of bitterness right now. Do I really want to burn that bridge? To commit 100% to my wife would mean no girl friends. I just know if there was ever a chance OW contacted me, i'd be back to square one you know?

 

Sheez, my emotions are all over the place. I'm eager to see what I'm going to feel tomorrow? Today i want to stay together, tomorrow i may just want a divorce! DOH!

 

We aren't talking about the seperation now. That was a couple of months ago. But she did leave for a week on a trip and that was nice.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder...Not! I used to leave pretty frequently for business trips and honestly that was awesome except for missing my kids. Damn skype! Its so cheap, my wife would call me overseas just to bitch at me! No respite from that even though I'm thousands of miles away!

 

Just reminded of a joke:

Some guy goes to a brothel, plunks down a few hundred dollars and demands the most onery,oldest and bitchiest girl they have. the madame eyes his money and says, " for that money, you could have the most attractive girl here." to which he replies, " yeah, but I'm homesick..."

[dilly]

With me, there is no hope for a relationship with the OW at all. i know that now and am just coming to grips with it. Thats why i think i had such a paradigm shift. I really had no choice other than just divorce my wife but i'm such a wuss that I just can't be alone.

 

Enough about me, its your thread. I'm just amazed at how similar our situation is. Its like i'm watching my life being played out by you!

 

Your situation, you still have a chance with your OW, is that right? If you do, could that cloud your feelings for your wife? For instance, with me, letting go of the OW allowed me to focus more on my wife. I realize that i invested alot of my emotional energy on the OW and had nothing for my wife. it certainly didn't spring out of nowhere, our marriage had always been on the rocks, and the OW was just a byproduct of the already disfunctional marriage. All i'm saying is imagine that your OW would never come back to you, would it affect your feelings for your wife, or would it tell you that leaving is the best option?

 

Even though your wife is trying hard, i know how tough it can be to love a person that has, yelled, nagged , and basically kicked you @ss for the past 12 years!

[OldEurope]

The other kind of "withdrawal" is the kind of reaction a person might have if they are addicted to something and going without their "fix". The dynamics of Infatuation are often physiological. Our bodies produce "feel good" chemicals in response to contact with the object of our affection. Even thoughts about this person can result in that "excited" feeling. 'Butterflies in your stomach' or 'feeling weak in the knees' are common expressions to us, but they're also apt description of the effect of changes in our neurotransmitters.

 

Physiological? Changes in "Neurotransmitters"? Perhaps a plain ol' change of heart. Perhaps absolutely genuine feeling....

 

 

Realistically, what exactly does your wife have to keep her there once the marriage ends? Do you think it's fair to her that YOU are able to move on and be happy, but SHE cannot choose her own destiny? Do you think it's fair that she give up her child because the marriage didn't work out? Bear in mind, you are BOTH culpable in the demise of the relationship.

 

The wife has the responsibility to make and create her own life, in a marriage or if she comes out of it. Why can't she choose her own destiny? What century are we?

 

I'm not telling you what you ought to do... but you need to know that even in the crappiest marriages, NOTHING is impossible.

 

In the "crappiest marriages"....You have no "marriage". Game over.

 

OE

[Ladyjane14]

Many opposite-sex friends now (some she knows, some she never will). And you are right, they do fill some sort of void although there is no sex involved with any of them. They're just friends. They give me the attention and 'fun' that I had with my W but is long gone now.

 

Can you see that there is NO WAY for your wife to meet your need for "attention and fun" if those needs are already fully met by other people? Her path is completely blocked.

 

But now she is wanting sex everyday. Weird. Or she is saying she does. I think is part of her faking rather than a phsyical overnight miracle change. I can't fake my side forever and I know she won't hold out much longer before she will grow tired of faking.

 

Lies, lies, lies.

 

You are assuming that her sexual desires for you are deceitful. You're making a choice to attribute a manipulative agenda to her actions. But... there's a better than average chance her feelings are very REAL. This kind of "hysterical bonding" is fairly normal after a marriage crisis. There are certainly folks who would argue that physiology plays no part in our "feelings"... but I think it actually plays a MUCH larger role than people give it credit for.

 

The most likely explanation for her sexual response to you is that her adrenal system is engaged, and she's feeling those "in love" emotions. This wouldn't be too much different from the same kind of "infatuation" response that you've experienced for the OW.

 

You're right though that this is unsustainable. Just like in every other case of infatuation, eventually our bodies and emotions stabilize into a more comfortable state of being.

 

D isn't fair to anyone, from what I can see and in my childhood experiences with my father on his 4th W and my mom on her 3rd H. Ugly stuff.

 

Do you think the lack of appropriate marriage models might have contributed to your expectations in the marriage? What kind of "marriage model" did your wife experience? Do you feel that maybe some of the reason why you are having difficulty making a decision about the marriage is that your past experiences have made it difficult to move forward?

 

These kind of questions are difficult for most people to answer on their own. When it's gotten to the point where a person is REALLY bogged down and living in limbo... the best bet for sorting through them is the guidance of a well-trained counselor, IMHO.

 

If she can't move on that is not my problem. Is it?

 

Well, it kind of IS your problem in the fact that you still have to co-parent with her. She's not going to disappear into thin air just because you divorced her, you know. And if you can't come to some kind of understanding, you're going to face constant difficulties on how to raise your child. This is going to be MUCH easier to do if you are BOTH content and happy people. It's better to give a little and take a little so that the negotiation process is appeased.

 

I think you're angry and you want to punish your wife. That's my opinion. But I'm hoping that you'll see that it's not in the best interest of your child for you to do that.

 

The opposite of love is not hate. It's Indifference. Through "indifference", you won't feel the need to punish your wife. You won't care if she's allowed to walk away happy. Right now, I suspect maybe you'd prefer her NOT to be happy or supported by friends and family. And THAT's not "indifference".

 

Emotionally reinvesting is something I have no desire to do. I don't want to unite with her. Faking seems to be the much more attractive choice between the two.

 

There's certainly something to be said for the old adage.. "fake it 'til you make it". It allows us to reinforce behavioral changes that might have affected the relationship in negative ways and replace them with better habits.

 

But if you think that you can continue "faking it" in perpetuity and find contentment in that choice... Well, all I can say is "good luck with that".

"Fake it 'til you make it" assumes that the goal is "making it".

 

It sounds to me like you've ALREADY made a decision to remain checked out of the marriage. It sounds to me like THAT is the "goal". You don't want to have to pay the COST on a decision to divorce so you'd like to split the difference and do nothing. Problem is... there ain't no free lunch... also a very old adage. How are you supposed to find true emotional contentment if you're willing to do NOTHING to achieve it? All you'll end up with is MORE time wasted in bitterness and anger.

 

Emotionally reinvesting requires tremendous forgiveness on my part and then dealing with remainder of her crap that doesn't quite make the transition over to niceness.

 

You say that as if YOU are the only person in the world who's NOT living in a glass house.... as if YOU had done everything perfectly, and there was no need for your wife to find forgiveness of your transgressions as well. True reconcilliation requires MUTUAL forgiveness. Your wife may have treated you abominably... but so too have you treated her in a way that's unforgivable by many people's standards.

 

In terms of a healthy marital relationship... neither one of you is exactly a "prize pig" at this point. Nobody gets it right all the time. That's just the way it is. We ALL need forgiveness now and then, because we ALL occasionally transgress.

 

She isn't even someone I would be friends with if I was married to someone else. Really. We just see things so differently. We are only now choosing not to argue about them. I do my thing and when she disagrees I tell her I am doing it anyways. And she does the same. No team work. No partnership. More like roommates.

 

I think you aren't EVER going to be happy in this relationship. I also think it's largely because you'll continue CHOOSING not to be. You asked for opinions... I'll give you mine:

 

Get proactive and make a decision about your marriage. Either stay or go. The alternative is MORE of the same bitterness and anger you're already experiencing. It seems unreasonable to me for a person to CHOOSE an unacceptible status quo rather than to take an active role in resolving the problem. There are emotional costs in any endeavor. The cost of a non-choice may very will be bitterness that will eventually be adopted into your personality on a permanent basis.

[Ladyjane14]

I have never cheated on her.

 

This is debatable. By alot of standards, anytime you engage in discussion or behavior with another person in a way that you would NOT feel comfortable of doing if your spouse was standing right there... it's cheating. That's a pretty quick litmus test of appropriate behavior for married people.

 

Just because you weren't physically intimate with this OW doesn't mean that your wife wasn't cheated, IMO. You gave the OW something which was promised exclusively to your wife.... the prioritization of her ahead of all other women.

[empty906]

As for the OW, I sure have been missing her today. Badly. There is friend of my W who looks very much like the OW. We saw her Monday night and it got me stirred up. I am struggling fighting off the desire to email her tonight so she will have a messgae from me when she wakes up.

 

Well, I did shoot her an email after I posted some here last night. (actually early this morning) It was a 'thought about you all day today and just wanted to check in with you' kinda email. In the past six or seven weeks we have only communicated once and that was a week ago when I called her on the way to a meeting. So guess who I bump into today. Yep, her.

 

Yeehaw!!! I see her, our eyes meet, she walks up with outstretched arms and gives me a great hug. <it has been sooo long> I was on my way to another meeting in the next county so I didn't have much free time at that moment but we chit-chatted about business and the house I am working on. I said I had to go and that is was great seeing her again. Man, I love her smile. And the way she looks at me when I talk to her just melts me. I feel like I am back in junior high or something when I am around her.

 

Oh, well. <shaking my head> That was awesome. I get home this evening and she has replied with a nice, light email. I want sooo bad to start things up again but I cannot abuse this. I cannot!

 

We'll see how things play out. I will move very slowly and let much time pass. Hey, we have years to wait here anyways, what's the sense in rushing.

 

Now I have to figure out when it is safe to make contact again. A week passed since the last time, maybe that is the right timeframe. Very positive results from this email. And the ol' bump-in was an added bonus!

[dilly]

Thats such a good feeling when the person likes you right back.

 

Ever hear that song "Its sad to belong" By England Dan and John Ford Coley?

[dilly]

Gotta tell ya. You are one patient SOB!

[empty906]

Gotta tell ya. You are one patient SOB!

 

As played out and cliche as it sounds, I just really love her. We talked about the 'if and when' the both of us are single then we will get married. I want that. She can't get out of her marriage right now and not in the foreseeable future. So what other choice do I have (besides my W, I know, I know) but to wait for her to be able to leave safely. She will be happier then and I know I will be, too.

 

I really don't want anybody else. And the funny thing is I don't have her either. We aren't dating, we stopped calling each other, I rarely ever see her now, no more emails and chats, ...nothing. And yet she is still there waiting as well.

 

She didn't have to reply to my email and, in fact, I asked her not to. I asked her not to reply and that I wasn't trying to step in and put any pressure in her already stressed out life. I was only peeking in and seeing if she was honestly okay. (She didn't ever say so that means, no, she's not okay. I even asked her if she was alright when we we talking today and she ignored the question and said something else.) She didn't have to walk up to me and hug me and stop to small talk. She didn't have to do any of those things. But her doing so told me enough of what was going on at her house and where things still stand between us.

 

And that is a confirmation that I needed. Actually more confirmation than I anticipated. Not getting a 'go to hell' email would have sufficed.

[empty906]

Ever hear that song "Its sad to belong" By England Dan and John Ford Coley?

 

I had never heard that song so I looked it up and listened to it. Pretty much sums it up, huh?

 

This part of the song:

 

Wish I had a time machine

I could make myself go back

Until the day I was born.

And I would live my life again

And rearrange it so

That I'll be yours from now on.

 

is exactly what she said to me one day. Not the exact words of the song but she asked me where I was when she was planning to marry her H and why didn't she know me then. Why couldn't I have been standing there.

 

Why indeed...

 

Liked the song, thanks, Dilly.

[empty906]

Perhaps a plain ol' change of heart. Perhaps absolutely genuine feeling....

 

The wife has the responsibility to make and create her own life, in a marriage or if she comes out of it. Why can't she choose her own destiny? What century are we?

 

In the "crappiest marriages"....You have no "marriage". Game over.

 

Thanks, OE. I agree with alot of what LJ says and with most of the stuff that I don't agree with I can see where she is coming form. She is trying to help me see things through a different viewpoint that I am closing myself off from. But, I do think my feelings for the OW are true. Not because she fills some void because I have gotten others in the past few weeks to fill that same void and it didn't have the same effect. Although as fun as it was it wasn't what I was needing.

 

My W is trying to fill that void and I am not letting her. I DO NOT want her there. She had it and didn't want it for so many years and now that it has been taken away she is thinking, "Uh, oh!"

 

She tried hard tonight to fill it. It actually pissed me off. The faking it crap gets on my damn nerves sometimes. I don't want to be with her and I am being forced to by some certificate we signed years ago.

 

<long pause followed by a sigh>

 

I don't know, man. It just isn't what I started out with, you know? We were both so young and now we are adults. Of course we are different people than when we married, good Lord. We have both changed and we are who we are and it is unfair for one spouse to expect the other to pretend and be someone they aren't just to save face. Marriage is about two people BSing each other and just going through life hoping it will all end someday? No more happiness allowed? Come on, that's not right.

 

But my Mom would disagree. She says marriage isn't about being happy. Marriage is about keeping your word. No one made me marry her, I chose that. Now I have live with my decision. If you are blessed with a child and the child is born handicapped you don't leave the child and get one that isn't. You take what you have and continue on. It isn't about what is fair or what is right or what makes me happy.

 

Well, I don't like her answer either. I totally understand her point but I see this situation, this marriage, as a choice. I still have the right to end it. It isn't a life, it is a commitment. It is a decision she and I made to show the world our love for one another. Now I am ready to tell the world that although it was there when we started it is not there today. I want to end the commitment. I want to make a new decision.

 

Question: Do I (our any spouse) have the right to end the marriage? Did I marry her forever no matter what or did I marry her for as long as I wanted to be married to her? Did I sign a contract that has an escape clause or a contingency? Or is it iron clad?