NH, have you considered that your daughter might end up being a better person, a happier person, a morally strong person, if she sees her dad standing up for himself and not turning into a doormat?
Females grow up to be just like their mom - UNLESS their dad steps in (if the mom is acting poorly) to state that that is NOT the way for a woman to be.
Females grow up to choose a guy just like their dad. So, if you remain in this limbo for the next 10 years just to have more time with your daughter, she will grow up and marry a milquetoast, grow to resent him for not standing up for himself, and either cheat on him or divorce him.
Just being in the same house as her is NOT the same thing as being the best possible father for her.
My kids deeply respect my hard decision to D their Dad. 23 years we were together.
It impacted them. They see their Dad as a cheater (serial) who is selfish and self serving. I never explained that to them - they found out from their own experience.
I only explained that he cheated, that was it. I never talk badly of him to them even tho I'd like to. At first they wanted me to forgive him, but as soon as I said that I'd done that ten years prior, they looked at me and said "he's a douche, you're an amazing woman, we won't allow you to go back evening you wanted to." they were 14 and 16 years old.
Respect is earned. They don't respect him and his actions but they DO love him.
Every child has THAT right. I stay out of the R with my exH and kids.
I nurture MY relationship with them the way I want it to be! They admire my strength and courage and tell me that often.
My kids deeply respect my hard decision to D their Dad. 23 years we were together.
It impacted them. They see their Dad as a cheater (serial) who is selfish and self serving. I never explained that to them - they found out from their own experience.
I only explained that he cheated, that was it. I never talk badly of him to them even tho I'd like to. At first they wanted me to forgive him, but as soon as I said that I'd done that ten years prior, they looked at me and said "he's a douche, you're an amazing woman, we won't allow you to go back evening you wanted to." they were 14 and 16 years old.
Respect is earned. They don't respect him and his actions but they DO love him.
Every child has THAT right. I stay out of the R with my exH and kids.
I nurture MY relationship with them the way I want it to be! They admire my strength and courage and tell me that often.
At first they wanted me to forgive him, but as soon as I said that I'd done that ten years prior
Ditto for me, except for me it was 13 years before.
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they were 14 and 16 years old.
My son was 20 and told his dad that he did not want me to go back with him.
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They don't respect him and his actions but they DO love him.
He still didn't agree with telling sensei. He says the most important thing is to get my W working on this with me together.
We agreed that my WW doesn't get it how unfair it is for her to be around OM at all. I think she thinks I will get used to it over time. His response to that was that even if it does manage to heal, it's like an untreated complex fracture, it might heal...but won't be too functional when it does.
Also he agreed that every Fri, it's like the knife is going back into the wound. How do you heal something that is still exposed to the original source of injury?
He asked me a question:
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Originally Posted by Steve Harley
Which would make you feel more uncomfortable?
Your W having a peaceful 2 hour dinner (just conversation) with
A)OM
B)The man that raped your daughter (hypothetical of course, my daughter has not been raped!)
My response was, "uhhhh THAT'S A HARD QUESTION!".
He didn't really care to let me come to a conclusion. His point was that most BSs have trouble with this question, and most answer A. Even if they answer B, it's after a lot of pondering.
He says the WS never expects that, they think the choice is obviously B.
From what I get, any attempt by me to continue to tell this stuff to her is wasted effort, or worse just pushes her away. It's gonna have to come from somewhere else. Makes sense. The only reason I can go to the dojo and take part is cause her Mom told her I should go. He of course wants her to call him, and take part in his "coaching" program. If not he at least wants us to go to their site *together*. He'd like us to start a thread *together* so it's us, not me doing the work, and it has her POV represented. Getting her to do that...sigh...hard. But she is getting better and better around me. She actually told me she loved me yesterday, on her own initiative. Pathetic...I know...but it's progress. In "Divorce Remedy" (which is where the the original idea of the 180 came from) she says to watch for any signs of progress and take heart based on that. The point is, I have hope that she'll start working on this again if we continue down the path we are on right now. I'm gonna try to get her to do a session, or a forum thing, or something. Might fail.
Two more points. I mentioned you guys saying I needed to inflict more "consequences" and he said that was a short sighted knee jerk reaction thing to say.
ALTHOUGH in another part of the conversation he did mention filing for D if there's no action. He said M doesn't necessarily require any attention, compared to D, which requires immediate huge amounts of attention. First part of that sentence can sound really bad if taken out of context, but I get the point. Filing for D forces action. It didn't sound like he was for D right now, more of as a last resort, which is the way I see it.
So it is interesting that he advocates filing for D over spilling the truth to Sensei. I guess he sees one as a controlling\damaging move and the other as just a way of taking care of myself?
Current mission I guess is to get WW to do *something* to get expert advice. Btw, he agrees my therapist is doing a bad job, he said that 2 months ago as well...and I agree in a lot of ways. My current therapist, she's the one we started with though and is 100% covered by ins. I dunno, I go back there just because it's free and is something compared to nothing.
Another way of summing up all of Harley's advice is: "Send her to us!" but w\e. If he was truly in it for just the $$ he could just have only me keep calling back and spending cash. He knows there's a big possibility W won't do it...and by the end of the conversation it was clear to me that any more solo sessions with him and me would probably be pointless. He also made it clear that I could at least get her to take advantage of the free stuff, like forums, articles, etc. (money is a big excuse of WW not to have anything to do with Harley)
He also made it clear that I could at least get her to take advantage of the free stuff, like forums, articles, etc. (money is a big excuse of WW not to have anything to do with Harley)
Tomorrow: lawyer appointment in the afternoon.
If you really want her to speak with this guy, I'm sure the price of her MM classes would cover a session of two. However, I'm not sure why you think forcing her to speak with anyone to "fix" her has much chance to work. Think of her as an addict. If she's not motivated to change her life for her own sake it's not going to happen.
As for your counselor, just how many people need to explain how poor she is before you make a change?
The only place on his forum that she MIGHT be able to post without being driven off completely would be in the "restricted" section where he posts.
DO NOT HAVE HER POST ON THAT SITE ANYWHERE IN THE OPEN FORUMS.
She'd see one page of responses and never return.
So...does he say HOW he wants you to convince her to seek expert advice? HOW you're supposed to get her to counsel with him, or post on his forum?
That's what I still see lacking in the advice he gave you...specific actions to take to bring her around.
I never counseled with them...but I did apply a lot of his ideas to our recovery. Don't know that I am sure that the direct advice he's given you is going to get you anywhere...don't see any plan of action that he's recommending, along with specifics on HOW to implement them.
His advice to GET HER to DO something is wasted money and effort.
At this point YOU can't MAKE HER CHANGE!
You can change YOU. You can change what YOU DO OR DON'T DO.
You can also ACCEPT this as YOUR status quo... Bummer though...
I'd like to ask a question... When your W says she loves you what does that mean to HER? Does she love you to the core of who you are or does it mean she loves you because you're willing to go along with her manipulations of not taking ACTION to change what she has ruined?
The only place on his forum that she MIGHT be able to post without being driven off completely would be in the "restricted" section where he posts.
DO NOT HAVE HER POST ON THAT SITE ANYWHERE IN THE OPEN FORUMS.
She'd see one page of responses and never return.
So...does he say HOW he wants you to convince her to seek expert advice? HOW you're supposed to get her to counsel with him, or post on his forum?
That's what I still see lacking in the advice he gave you...specific actions to take to bring her around.
I never counseled with them...but I did apply a lot of his ideas to our recovery. Don't know that I am sure that the direct advice he's given you is going to get you anywhere...don't see any plan of action that he's recommending, along with specifics on HOW to implement them.
Thanks for the heads up OWL. I think I remember you having some really bad feedback about the forums over there before. You said even advice from Harley was trashed on his own forums? Was that you?
He did give me advice on how to coax her over to counseling before. It didn't work though given he's not covered by Ins. I almost had her calling until she found out about that part =\ (2 months ago)
I might have more of a prayer this time, back then she was intent on D, now she's in a very different place.
He did mention that he's not the only person out there. Ugh...such a pain in the ass to find someone else. Probably will be what I have to do though.
Oh and the reason I originally REALLY wanted to call was because the idea of exposure came from the Harleys. I wanted to know if I should tell sensei but was unclear about it since the A was not ongoing. If the Harleys themselves don't agree with exposure to fix things in this case....then the advice in the books didn't apply.
Steve Harley is not a qualified or licensed psychotherapist or psychologist.
Yeah but he is the son of the guy who wrote the book preaching exposure to end an A. If even he doesn't condone exposing to sensei, and I was getting justification from his father's book...well I have something to think about.
I'm still considering exposure if WW doesn't do something...it just feels better to tell the truth than rip my family apart deliberately.
I think you should trust your gut. You know better than anyone what is or isn't working for you.
Leaving aside what SHE is or isn't doing - its better if you take action on changing things for you. That is the only thing you CAN control - is you.
Remember... What YOU DO OR DON'T DO does affect her! With every action or NONaction comes a REACTION.
There are many times that when one spouse STOPS doing things the same as they used to - the other spouse begins to adjust and change.
It takes consistency on YOUR PART though... To invoke the change you wish to see.
The goal here is for YOU to be happy no matter what she is or isn't doing.
I can guarantee you - your happiness should NOT be based upon what she is or isn't doing.
I haven't stated so yet - but I don't agree with you following her other dojo like a puppy dog spying to see if someone may steal his food while he's not watching. You can think you're watching - but the watching may cause you more pain than you want.
IF she INTENDS to see him or have contact - NO ONEand NOTHING will keep them apart. Since she's not forthcoming with her feelings and honesty - there's NO WAY to determine what her intent is.
Her behavior isn't a wife that intends to restore your faith in her. Her approach is a wife that wants you to do all the worrying and heavy lifting while she plays "pretty, perfect wife and mother".
I continue to bead that you aren't HONORING YOURSELF more than you are.
When you restresomebalanceto the relationship - you won't feel likely have to give up YOU to be loved by HER.
It won't feel liken internal battle because you won't be betraying self.
As long as you focus more on her than you - the boundary isn't healthy.
SheSHOULDbe more agreeable to change for bettering the M- but SHE'S NOT.
No dojo, Harley or counselor can make her as long as she's not willing.
Steve Harley is not a qualified or licensed psychotherapist or psychologist.
Another point on this. He did more good in 1 hour than my regular therapist did in...sheesh..I dunno how many sessions. I feel pretty confident in my reasons for using him, at least in the past. The credentials thing could easily be a stumbling point for WW, and honestly my prediction is she won't talk to him.
Thanks for the heads up OWL. I think I remember you having some really bad feedback about the forums over there before. You said even advice from Harley was trashed on his own forums? Was that you?
Not that his advice was trashed, but that it was the ONLY advice to be considered...ever. He was treated as a god who could never be wrong, and any advice or thought that didn't come directly from the man was blasphemy.
And no...I never trashed him. No reason to...I've got no issue with his basic concepts at all, although I often wonder why the personal advice he seems to offer almost always seems contrary to what he suggests in his books and written works.
Just as it has in your case. WHY does he recommend against exposure in your case, when he's an advocate of this as 'general advice' in his books and website?
Non sequiter.
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He did give me advice on how to coax her over to counseling before. It didn't work though given he's not covered by Ins. I almost had her calling until she found out about that part =\ (2 months ago)
I might have more of a prayer this time, back then she was intent on D, now she's in a very different place.
He did mention that he's not the only person out there. Ugh...such a pain in the ass to find someone else. Probably will be what I have to do though.
Oh and the reason I originally REALLY wanted to call was because the idea of exposure came from the Harleys. I wanted to know if I should tell sensei but was unclear about it since the A was not ongoing. If the Harleys themselves don't agree with exposure to fix things in this case....then the advice in the books didn't apply.
Right. Why doesn't the advice apply in your situation, and if it doesn't, why isn't it outlined in his books?
Again, don't take me wrong. Exposure worked in my case, for example. So did applying the concepts of the love bank, emotional needs, etc... I'm just curious why it seems like he gives the opposite advice to folks who actually counsel with him?
So...spell out his "plan" for helping you to recover your marriage, step by step?
Not that his advice was trashed, but that it was the ONLY advice to be considered...ever. He was treated as a god who could never be wrong, and any advice or thought that didn't come directly from the man was blasphemy.
And no...I never trashed him. No reason to...I've got no issue with his basic concepts at all, although I often wonder why the personal advice he seems to offer almost always seems contrary to what he suggests in his books and written works.
Just as it has in your case. WHY does he recommend against exposure in your case, when he's an advocate of this as 'general advice' in his books and website?
Non sequiter.
Right. Why doesn't the advice apply in your situation, and if it doesn't, why isn't it outlined in his books?
Again, don't take me wrong. Exposure worked in my case, for example. So did applying the concepts of the love bank, emotional needs, etc... I'm just curious why it seems like he gives the opposite advice to folks who actually counsel with him?
So...spell out his "plan" for helping you to recover your marriage, step by step?
Well, he didn't write the book actually. It was his father. There could be differing views. And the book is pretty vague about what to do in a situation like mine...where the A is over but there's still contact, in my case right in front of me since I'm attending class now.
He has a pretty generic plan:
Presented in two ways really.
WW has to be trained to be the physician, to heal the wound. He will supervise as she "treats" me
I will report back how it's going.
I said my WW would probably object saying she has her own wounds (like from 7 years ago). He said there would be a triage process. Probably with a wound like an A that occurred this year, that would come first.
On a broader level:
1) Agree that the goal is to find a way to make the M a happy place for everyone
2) Research the idea that this is possible, and how to do it
3) err...actually I'm unclear We're really stuck on #2. Last conversation I had with him, we were stuck on #1.
4) execute
5) maintain?
I think a big part of it is that creative consultation process, and the policy of joint agreement for everything.
So yeah he doesn't have specific steps for us. He can't know what to do without my W's POV. That's why we need her there.
If you are spending a lot of money with Harley, why not spend the co-pay for a live therapist that you and your wife can go to? You can ask friends, check recommendations on the internet, call therapist's offices and find out if any of them specialize in infidelity. Maybe she is more likely to go to a real person. You can discern a lot about a person when you are face to face with them and see their expressions.
We can only go by what you say, but it sure does seem like you are the only one really working on this marriage, but only you can decide when enough is enough. You'll get there if she doesn't do what she needs to and only you know if it will make you feel better or worse that you waited for her to change.
I agree with Sunny in that you following her to class is pointless. You cannot be her jailer and why would you ever want to have to depend on you eyeballing her to keep her away from the OM? Everyone here has told you the same thing...she is not acting like a woman who is concerned about keeping her marriage intact and making you happy. She smiles at you, tells you she loves you, has weekend sex and still goes to the one place in this world that you do not want her to go to and sees the one person in the world that you do want her to see. AND, she let you go reluctantly. Hopefully when you have had enough, you will still be sane. I can't for the life of me see how you don't see and feel her disrespect for you.
Please note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only and are not to be used in the place of professional psychological counseling or medical advice. If you or someone close to you is currently in crisis or in an emergency situation, contact your local law enforcement agency or emergency number.
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