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The problem with "nice guys"


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Old 17th December 2017, 8:36 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by thefooloftheyear View Post
What sours a lot of these "nice guys' is that despite everything women actually preach and say, time and time again they see women doing the exact opposite when it comes to who they choose as a mate...These women constantly bang on about how guys should be sweet and chivalrous, respectful and attentive, only to throw their attention at guys that have little to none of these traits...It's almost like the "size doesn't matter" deal...Ask a random woman on the street, and if she's honest, she'll say she prefers a guy have a larger than average dick....But size doesn't matter??

I'd imagine that must be very frustrating.....and the bitterness ensues...

But at the end of the day, what these guys don't get is that there are no "points" or extra credit for just being nice...You can be nice and women will love that aspect of your personality, but there better be more of the other qualities (good looks. body, strong and self assured, good career, confidence, etc)...

TFY
yea that pretty much sums it up TFY
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:26 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by thefooloftheyear View Post
/.../
....But size doesn't matter??
/.../
Actually it doesn't...

...unless they're planning to have sex with them...

..lol..
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Old 17th December 2017, 12:43 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by basil67 View Post
Yes, of course we define it differently. It's because "nice guy" is a term which has been manufactured by men for men. It's not a term women use to describe men. Because we don't use the term to describe men, I guess it's hard for us to understand the male perspective. I think most of the time women can't even begin to relate to the way men describe how they think we think about "nice guys"
No.. It was manufactured by women and defined by men.

I find it hard to believe that defining nice is soooo hard, yet its so easy to define what a badboy is. I find it hilarious.

"Nice" guy is just used by women who will not clearly define what they want in fear of showing what they truly desire or simply because they do not know what they desire.

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Yes, a woman may breakup with the line "you're a nice guy but....". In this case, being a "nice guy" is a POSITIVE thing we can say about him. As in, he's good person, but there are other issues which may make the relationship unworkable. But men have gone and turned that one positive women can find into a negative trait. Now the poor dude has nothing going for him. I don't know why men choose to turn the positive into a negative.
A paragraph like this is what I want the "nice guys" to see and to stop getting dogged in the dating world.

Men have not turned anything into a negative trait. If women loved guys who are portrayed as nice than why are there millions of books, dating coaches, PUAs, and websites trying to teach men how to interact with women, pick up women and so forth. Your statement does not reflect reality. When does being dumped or rejected considered positive? The relationship is unworkable because maybe you crave something else and if that was the case you shouldn't have been in the relationship in the first place.

Why take a nice guy for a ride? Why hint that this "poor" guy has nothing going for him? If men as you claimed twisted the term nice guy as negative... than woman should find him attractive anyway right? No matter what men say. Right?

Men are more willing to do what it takes to attract women and if it was being nice.. more men would be nice. Guaranteed

That is why it is always noted that chivalry is dead.. because many women do not value chivalry anymore. The only reason women crave chivalry is because it benefits them, but it is always clouded into the guy just wanted to get laid so whats the point?

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In my experience, a lot of women want what we would term as a 'Good Guy' (or in my country, a good bloke). The good guy IS a nice guy, but he's also got other things going for him. He's thoughtful and meets the needs of his partner, but he's not a doormat. He will stand up to her when she's being too demanding. He'll be there for her, but will also be there for his mates. He's well liked by both genders. He's trustworthy. He looks after those who need help. He gets on well with her friends and family. Oh wait...that's my husband.
Most men are this guy...

but why play this game? Whats the point and what does it accomplish.
Absolutely nothing. This is where most guys fail and most guys don't need to or should have to regulate, guide, or micro manage another adult.

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I'm 50 now and in all my years, I have only known one woman who went after the bad boy type. Most of us could spot the bad boy from a mile off and knew she'd hone in on him. And then we'd be sitting waiting for her to come crying a month or two later with something like "all men are scum". No hon, you just choose scummy men. She was the master of her own misfortune. Meanwhile, we were all getting on with life. Happy with our good blokes.
Exactly, 50 and this new generation is a new breed. Its not the 60's, 70's or 80's anymore. both men and women in this new millennial have 5000 channels, 100 flavors, and 10,000 gadgets and need to be stimulated every minute of the day and being a nice dude is not going to cut it.... an 80% rejection on all social dating media is the harsh truth that being nice is just a benefit and has no merit in attraction.

Many women have no respect men, what men are about, or understanding men and the same goes for men as the respect for women is dwindling. Women like nice men because its a benefit to them and the mutual relationship among men and women is fading away. Just watch the news for 10 minutes and the proof is there..
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Old 17th December 2017, 1:31 PM   #64
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An alpha is a good and wise person.
that's generally not the case in practice
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Old 17th December 2017, 2:10 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by thefooloftheyear View Post
What sours a lot of these "nice guys' is that despite everything women actually preach and say, time and time again they see women doing the exact opposite when it comes to who they choose as a mate...These women constantly bang on about how guys should be sweet and chivalrous, respectful and attentive, only to throw their attention at guys that have little to none of these traits
Exactly!


Quote:
Originally Posted by thefooloftheyear View Post
I'd imagine that must be very frustrating.....and the bitterness ensues...

But at the end of the day, what these guys don't get is that there are no "points" or extra credit for just being nice...
With the internet and pop movie/TV culture being saturated with opinions and advice about "nice guys" and their issues, is there any man still out there that just "doesn't get" most of the common pitfalls? My 18-year-old son is just as aware of all the issues that took me into my 40s to figure out.

It's the processing of these issues that is the most difficult. For one thing, we all have difficulty breaking out of our comfort zone, but in addition to that . . .

Unfortunately, we can't just peel off "nice" qualities like the rind of an orange and be left with only the "good" qualities. It's more like a marbled steak. Take the "nice" example the OP gave - being too available and clingy early on in a relationship. If you have to detach yourself to be successful in attracting women, are you quenching qualities that would help with bonding at a later stage?

I'm also encountering pitfalls with maybe being a little too aware of "nice guy" issues. Every time I show a little politeness and sensitivity, am I being perceived as too weak? If I am not confrontational with people who are being very difficult, does that make me too submissive? If I do let a sharp remark slip, am I weak for feeling regret? If my partner is inhibited or "vanilla" in the bedroom, is that because I'm too "nice"? etc. etc.
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Old 17th December 2017, 5:20 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by thefooloftheyear View Post
What sours a lot of these "nice guys' is that despite everything women actually preach and say, time and time again they see women doing the exact opposite when it comes to who they choose as a mate...These women constantly bang on about how guys should be sweet and chivalrous, respectful and attentive, only to throw their attention at guys that have little to none of these traits...It's almost like the "size doesn't matter" deal...Ask a random woman on the street, and if she's honest, she'll say she prefers a guy have a larger than average dick....But size doesn't matter??

I'd imagine that must be very frustrating.....and the bitterness ensues...

But at the end of the day, what these guys don't get is that there are no "points" or extra credit for just being nice...You can be nice and women will love that aspect of your personality, but there better be more of the other qualities (good looks. body, strong and self assured, good career, confidence, etc)...

TFY
I've only known one women who does as you describe...going after the bad boys. I really dislike that me and all my other girlfriends get lumped in with her by default. I've always hated the phrase "all men are ********" and I equally resent "all women want bad boys"

The size question? The reason I refuse to buy into it is because, IMO, it's a stupid question. There's no point in worrying about things which cannot be changed. And heaven knows, I've had enough of listening to exes worry about their size....so I'm not giving more fodder to the discussion.

I do love the way you've phrased the last paragraph (even if it does clash a bit with your first paragraph ) Yes, being nice is a good thing. But being nice is just the basic part of being a kind human. A person needs more.
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Old 17th December 2017, 5:41 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
No.. It was manufactured by women and defined by men.

I find it hard to believe that defining nice is soooo hard, yet its so easy to define what a badboy is. I find it hilarious.

"Nice" guy is just used by women who will not clearly define what they want in fear of showing what they truly desire or simply because they do not know what they desire.
Well I can't agree with your definition of 'nice' because to me, it's a positive trait.

I still don't hear the word 'nice' used by women to describe a type of man she wants. But is it a crime to not know what we really want? That's part of why people date - to learn what they want.

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Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
Men have not turned anything into a negative trait. If women loved guys who are portrayed as nice than why are there millions of books, dating coaches, PUAs, and websites trying to teach men how to interact with women, pick up women and so forth. Your statement does not reflect reality. When does being dumped or rejected considered positive? The relationship is unworkable because maybe you crave something else and if that was the case you shouldn't have been in the relationship in the first place.
Again, I don't hear women using the term 'nice' to describe a man's personality as a whole. Not IRL or here. It's men who've coined the phrase. I would also suggest that a guy who needs a mountain of help from dating coaches etc to connect with women has significant problems. So often, we get into the story and find that he doesn't connect with men either. Or that he's not interested in people.

No, getting dumped is not a good thing. I'm simply stating that when giving the reasons for dumping, acknowledging that he is a nice person but without connection is better than many other reasons for being dumped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
Why take a nice guy for a ride? Why hint that this "poor" guy has nothing going for him? If men as you claimed twisted the term nice guy as negative... than woman should find him attractive anyway right? No matter what men say. Right?
Dating is full of failed attempts. Going on a few dates and not finding a connection is not taking a person "for a ride". The second part of your paragraph doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
Men are more willing to do what it takes to attract women and if it was being nice.. more men would be nice. Guaranteed
As Sweetfish so eloquently described a few posts back, a guy needs to be nice. But he also needs to be a whole lot more than that. Being nice is just a basic part of being a good human.

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Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
That is why it is always noted that chivalry is dead.. because many women do not value chivalry anymore. The only reason women crave chivalry is because it benefits them, but it is always clouded into the guy just wanted to get laid so whats the point?
When I watch my disabled son (and pregnant women and old people) get on the bus and see able bodied men and women in priority seating not get up for him, I know that chivalry is dead for much of both genders.

Chivalry shouldn't be just expected of men. True chivalry is about helping those who need help. A truly chivalrous person will help anywhere it's required. Unlike a poster I recall from long ago who said that he'd only be chivalrous if it was likely to be advantageous to him.

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Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
but why play this game? Whats the point and what does it accomplish.
Absolutely nothing. This is where most guys fail and most guys don't need to or should have to regulate, guide, or micro manage another adult.
I would argue that most guys don't actually fail. Otherwise, we'd be experiencing sigificantly lower birthrates. Most guys find good relationships.

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Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
Exactly, 50 and this new generation is a new breed. Its not the 60's, 70's or 80's anymore. both men and women in this new millennial have 5000 channels, 100 flavors, and 10,000 gadgets and need to be stimulated every minute of the day and being a nice dude is not going to cut it.... an 80% rejection on all social dating media is the harsh truth that being nice is just a benefit and has no merit in attraction.
All I can say is pfft to social dating media. It's like Amazon for dating. I'm delighted watching my 18yo and her friends meeting people the old fashioned way. And having great relationships with (gasp) nice people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetfish View Post
Many women have no respect men, what men are about, or understanding men and the same goes for men as the respect for women is dwindling. Women like nice men because its a benefit to them and the mutual relationship among men and women is fading away. Just watch the news for 10 minutes and the proof is there..
There are most certainly pockets of people who have no respect for the opposite gender. But in my experience, it's quite a minority. For this I am thankful.
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Old 17th December 2017, 6:44 PM   #68
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Basil you arguing semantics and missing the point.
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:41 PM   #69
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OK, perhaps good and nice used to have the same meaning. But some men have recently twisted the word 'nice' and given it a negative meaning and now use it to describe other men. Or in your case, women too.

To a woman, being nice is a good thing. Have you EVER heard/read a woman complaining "I can only ever find nice guys."? Or what about women complaining "all men are nice."?

It's interesting that you see 'nice women' as being undesirable. Perhaps you're projecting your own preference for horrible women?
It seems that you never heard of the story about someone trying to
get a date for their friend/cousin/sister. The intended suitor (man)
does not know her so he asks is she good looking and he is told she
has a nice personality thus the matchmaker avoids having to say
she is not that pretty.

Women complain that they can't find a good man. Meaning one
that measures up to what they want. Notice they do not say I can
only find a nice man. Because they do not want a nice man they
want a good man.

When a woman says he's a nice guy, or you are a nice guy,
she then throws in the "but" then she follows with the excuse to let
the "nice guy down easy".

Men have not twisted the meaning of to be a "nice guy"
Women have consistently let men know that being called a nice guy
is the kiss of death for them relationship wise with that woman.

Last edited by road; 17th December 2017 at 10:45 PM..
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:55 PM   #70
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Well , there is a difference between:

nice and insecure

nice and submissive

nice and weak
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:52 PM   #71
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I've only known one women who does as you describe...going after the bad boys. I really dislike that me and all my other girlfriends get lumped in with her by default. I've always hated the phrase "all men are ********" and I equally resent "all women want bad boys"

The size question? The reason I refuse to buy into it is because, IMO, it's a stupid question. There's no point in worrying about things which cannot be changed. And heaven knows, I've had enough of listening to exes worry about their size....so I'm not giving more fodder to the discussion.

I do love the way you've phrased the last paragraph (even if it does clash a bit with your first paragraph ) Yes, being nice is a good thing. But being nice is just the basic part of being a kind human. A person needs more.

Even though sometimes we disagree, I have absolutely no doubt you are a lovely woman who is compassionate, kind, level headed and reasonable...You are the type of woman most guys will get along great with....I truly mean it....

But there is no doubt some of what I mentioned does exist...The main reason being many women suffer sometimes from a sense of unreasonable and dreamy idealism when it comes to men and relationships and dating....There are all conditions and some expect more than they will ever bring to the table themselves...And that one aspect is probably the biggest reason they continue to struggle...Too many romance novels and Cosmo articles?? I dunno....

And in the tech age we currently live in, now the idealism is taken to a whole nuther level....You have women believing they are God's gift because a bunch of guys flooded their inbox....(most just trolling for sex or the fact that the venue itself just favors women in general)..

You should know me by now....I don't have any built in resentment of women...I like women, and women have been better to me than I probably even deserved....

TFY
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Old 17th December 2017, 11:58 PM   #72
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Respect is the number one non physical factor in a woman's attraction. If a woman doesn't respect you she will lose attraction and if you want anybody to respect you then you must respect yourself. That goes for any gender and any situation. The thing is that many nice guys don't respect themselves. They don't have that backbone to stand up for themselves when the situation calls for it.
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Old 18th December 2017, 8:31 AM   #73
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Well , there is a difference between:

nice and insecure

nice and submissive

nice and weak
nice and whimpy

nice and boring

nice and not that attractive..

the list goes on and one..


i generally do think "nice" is not a good label for a female to ascribe to a male. it really means the male for not turn her buttons on. it means the guy will be friend zoned at best in the relationship. If i heard the word "nice" uttered by a female and I had any hopes of it going anywhere, I would hit the road running and find a female that does find my attractive.

its really no different than a guy that says a woman has a "nice personality". it really generally means he is not the least bit attracted to her physically. women who think and want to feel like they are beautiful and sexy and able to attract males should be concerned if a guy tells her she has a "nice personality". ;-)
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Old 18th December 2017, 3:15 PM   #74
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Notice that most guys are not into bad girls. I have had the opportunity to be with Bad Girls and I bypassed it all.

We don't have any major stories that feature Men trying to be with women in jail for the most part. With the acception of Mary Kay Letourneau and her sleeping wth a student.
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Old 18th December 2017, 4:08 PM   #75
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But there is no doubt some of what I mentioned does exist...The main reason being many women suffer sometimes from a sense of unreasonable and dreamy idealism when it comes to men and relationships and dating...Too many romance novels and Cosmo articles??
I agree with you. To discuss the other side of the coin as it pertains to "nice guys" and many of those who have been indoctrinated by the seduction community: Many of these men suffer because of their rigid and formulaic approach to women and relationships. They see women not as dynamic and diverse individuals but items to be won if they only do "x", "y", "z".

The men who are most successful with dating/relationships are those who are very adept at verbal communication and interpreting the nonverbal communication signals of the women they are interested in. They can tell if a women wants to be approached before they even approach her. And when they do approach her, they can readily adapt their communication style to her personality. I am not talking about playing games but making the best first impressions by understanding and respecting your audience.

Dating is a lot like marketing, the most successful salespeople are those who understand their audience and adjust their communication accordingly to be most effective. Most people can tell a "used-car salesperson," so his/her only audience is limited to gullible people--not a large market. Just like a player is going to attract a limited amount of women who are mostly emotionally unavailable and like to play games--not exactly "prizes" or relationship material in most people's books.

These men do not get taken for rides--not because their masculinity is superior and these women would not dare take advantage of them--but because they see the writing on the wall long before they get in the car. They know what they want and respect that the objects of their desire have a choice too. They are kind and thoughtful because they are not trying to manipulate the women into dating them, but they are genuinely interested in dating her. And most importantly, they know and respect most women can tell the difference.
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