Feelings for female coworker!

[uplooker80]

" Quote : The normal male part of me would have sex with her in a heartbeat, if not constrained by lack of opportunity and a moral compass. But it's not this guy I'm talking about. I find that women tend to wrap sexual interest and love into the same package. Most men keep them totally separated. (I can sense that I'm going to regret this paragraph)" And your point is ??

 

 

Mary, I will not be your sparring partner any longer. I know you mean well.

 

I don't know anymore why I am posting here so I'm going to stop.

 

Go ahead and hammer me for that previous sentence if you must.

 

The fact that you don't get my point about sex and love(or limerence) is why you will never be able to understand what I am thinking.

 

This thread has turned into an infidelity discussion, and that's fine with me, but it's not what this is about.

[Yamaha]

What you should have done was when you reconized that you were thinking about her far more than a married man should and desired to be with her you should have backed off and let your feelings die. Sometimes we get into situations where we are attracted to a person and if we spend lots of time with them we bond, emotionally. I think you now love her as a person but you are attracted to her physically. This combination is the things that result in an affair. If she was willing you probably would have had the affair.

 

Emotional affairs are very real and hard to overcome. Reconize the red flags. You enjoyed your feelings and her so you continued until you are now very much in-love with her. It is a hard situation to handle but the only way now to deal with it is to remove yourself from her. If you want to stay married to your wife then distance and the desire to be with her is the only way.

 

.

[persistant]

I was lead to this thread and I have read about 98% of it and I keep coming back to my experience and knowledge of this type of situation.

 

My input:

It is well known that no one is perfect and our spouses fall into that category also.

There is no perfect person!!

We as humans tend to think the grass is greener on the otherside and we loose sight of reality if we allow ourselves to stare off into what seems to be a more beautiful and greener pasture.

 

From my own experience--I was married---I was in the OP situation. (on the female side). I worked with a MM whom was a better listener and I felt valued by him. As we became closer acquaintances and friends I started to develop feelings towards him.

This infatuation became because my husband lacked the ability to listen to me when I attempted to share my thoughts and feelings with him.

I felt under valued and neglected which became very painful to me.

 

I leaned on the MM for this aspect I was neglected in my marriage. I began an emotional and mental affair with him. Dreaming, even sub-concously planning how to seduce him ---ex; being overly nice to him, doting on him, always offering to help him with his work so I could be cloer to him. Wearing perfume to work, asking him his opinions about things of me so he would focus on me. (I was trying to distract him and get him to focus on me.(suduction)) It worked.......He too had marriage problems and he ended up on the same path as I was.

 

Eventually, we ended up having an affair and it wasn't pleasant except when we were the IN-THE-MOMENT of interaction.

The guilt and confusion felt like a 2-ton pickup on my shoulders with a 2 x 4 beating against my brain and heart. Eventually it began to eat away at my morals and values and I became resentful of my husband more and displayed it and I wasn't myself anymore.

 

I actually ended the affair 6 months later. It was hard, I cried a lot, I rejected my husband in all ways by then. I sought counseling and I was so racked with guilt and worthlessness for betrying my own values and morals I couldn't admit the affair with my counselor and seeking help was unsuccessful.

 

I eventually divorced my husband for other reasons but my part in being an unfaithful wife and breaking my marriage vows almost caused me to have a breakdown.

 

The same year I divorced my husband the MM was also divorced and found out. He sought me out and we reunited without anything holding us back. 4.5 years later I broke it off with him. He stalked me, harrassed me and tried to create defamation of my character.

 

I thought the grass was greener on the otherside. I thought he was my dream. Once the walls were all down it was not so amazingly wonderful. I see why I was caught up in the illusion now --years later. I couldn't see it then because I was emotionally caught up in him.

 

So that is some of my side of the desiring perception of wanting someone who is forbidden and the struggle with it.

 

Your struggle in this sitation is your cognition. NOT emotions. I will explain this:

'All your moods are created by your "cognitions", or thoughts. A cognition refers to the way you look at things --- your perceptions, mental attitudes, and beliefs. It includes the way you interpret things -- what you say about something or somone to yourself. You feel the way you do right now because of the thoughts you are thinking at this moment.'

 

'The moment you have a certain thought an believe it, you will experience an immediate emotional response. Your thought actually creates the emotion.'

 

'Your thoughts which cause your emotional turmoil nearly always contain gross distortions. Although these thoughts appear valid, you will learn that they are irrational or just plain wrong, and that twisted thinking is a major cause of your suffering.'

 

You both are married. No marriage is perfect and no other person can give you all you desire in a mate.

You need to figure out what it is in this OW that you get, that you don't get from your wife. It could be something simple that your not aware of.

 

Ex: When you speak to your wife does she look you in the eyes and smile when you share something with her? (Does she give you intimate interaction?)

 

If the answer is no:

 

Then ask youself if the OW does this?

 

If the answer is yes:

 

then that simple thing could be what you are missing intensely in your marriage that you really want from your spouse and are not getting.

 

Not everything has to be a great big huge problem in a marriage to cause an affair.

 

Through all my research, counseling and experiences and taking an honest look at myself-- I have learned that a lot of emotional, mental and physical affairs are a result of some unmet need or a breakdown of a quality you expect to always be in your marriage.

 

I would suggest trying to recognizing what it is in this OW that your not getting from your W and try to build or rebuild that connection with your wife.

Men are visual creatures and a pretty face and great body can stimulate a physical response in yourself. Don't feed it. You will only start a fire you won't be able to easily put out.

 

You may not realize it but you are setting yourself up to create a situation with this OW, her H, and your W that you think you can control by pulling everyone together.

The saying 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer' can be altered to form a false belief that if you got her H and your W closer to the two of you and both can be in better control of hiding an A if she lets her guard down and one physically begins.

 

YOU WILL GET CAUGHT and you WILL burn yourself.

 

Most of this thread is about emotions and illusions. Strip away all that and look at the facts. Use LOGIC and not your emotional response to your thoughts to work through this.

 

 

I've read some great books on helping yourself take control of your life.

Mine research and study is mostly targeted towards changing my negative belief systems, taking control of my life and creating possitive forces in my life. With all my study is understanding where depression comes from and why we do what we do in our lives. If you are interested in any of these books let me know so I can post them for you or anyone else. I don't believe everything I read but I have found some points very intuitive, helpful and a great source of help in changing my life and image of myself.

 

 

 

I believe that your obsession with this OW is a product of something she does (like: listening to you openly without judgement, smiling or eye contact when you speak. ect that your wife no longer is doing as genuinely because of the struggles of the daily grind of life, marriage and family.)

 

You need to figure out this temptation logically regarding the OW and see the comparision to your W and start making the effort to get these qualities from your W before you do something that will take years to get over. You will damage yourself beyound the pain you are struggling with now.

 

I don't know if I am making any sense to you but I sure hope something I said will ring in your head.

 

Men are more logical then women. Women naturally tend to feel more then men.. It's time for you to get your logic in focus and be realistic. It is hard when your emotions run high..

 

Remember the quotes I put indented. It is your cognitions that create your emotions. So start to see what your cognitions are saying to yourself.

We create cognitions immediately and almost as fast we form an emotion attached to it. Feelings can't always be trusted. If you don't view something realistically your feelings wont be true even though you believe they are true.

 

Your in a mental prison right now, its an illusion, a hoax you have inadvertently created, but it seems real because it feels real.

Your thoughts create your emotions;, therefore, your emtions cannot prove that your thoughts are accurate. Unpleasant feelings merely indicate that you are thinking something negative and believing it. Your emotions follow your thoughts.

 

 

Test your beliefs and your thinking ignor your feelings right now. I know its hard but do your best...

 

There are many beautiful women (and men) to the eye but I believe its how someone treats us (cognition recognizes this) that makes us feel that intense chemistry/attraction (we want to be with that person because we feel good with them--which is created by the cognition).

 

We all want good interactions with others. When this happens we feel loved, important and special. When we are treated certain possitive ways we see ourselves as being valued and important.

 

No one person on this planet is perfect and can fullfill our vanities.

It is easy to be selfish and self focused. That causes us to stray and seek others to fill these voids in our pride and self-worth. (like affairs).

 

Sort out your cognitions of what is what and what the OW does that your W doesn't or has stopped doing.

 

Then I suggest you talk with her or work on you to get things back.

 

You are letting your emotions control your life.

You are being reactive/responsive.

You are not aware of everything you do. Sub-conciously you are doing things you don't realize you do until afterwards. Like trying to get a glimpse of this OW at work to get your fix and if she looks back at you you get an extra dose of seratonin flushing your senses.

You will become your own addict if its not to late.

 

Get yourself in check and work on recognizing your compensating behaviors and choices.

 

I know this first hand because I am a Professional at denial, compensating behaviors, over reacting and responding to situations, filling my selfish desires and not being responsible for myself. I blame shift my problems which I have created for myself so I dont have to be responsible for myself.

 

When I was first told to take a look at myself I denied I was like this. It has taken me two years to understand and see the truth...

 

 

I want to go on and on about this. I am known to be very wordy in LS. So I will stop.

 

You may think I'm being cold, judgemental, inconsiderate, that I don't make any sense, bla bla bla. That is alright.

We each have our own timing in understanding and accepting.

 

Maybe some of what I have said is over board or I am projecting myself.

 

I can say I do understand your situation because I have been there and I went further then you have. Details are and can be different but the reactions and responses to situations can be the same and very familiar.

[Mary3]

I was lead to this thread and I have read about 98% of it and I keep coming back to my experience and knowledge of this type of situation.

 

My input:

It is well known that no one is perfect and our spouses fall into that category also.

There is no perfect person!!

We as humans tend to think the grass is greener on the otherside and we loose sight of reality if we allow ourselves to stare off into what seems to be a more beautiful and greener pasture.

 

From my own experience--I was married---I was in the OP situation. (on the female side). I worked with a MM whom was a better listener and I felt valued by him. As we became closer acquaintances and friends I started to develop feelings towards him.

This infatuation became because my husband lacked the ability to listen to me when I attempted to share my thoughts and feelings with him.

I felt under valued and neglected which became very painful to me.

 

I leaned on the MM for this aspect I was neglected in my marriage. I began an emotional and mental affair with him. Dreaming, even sub-concously planning how to seduce him ---ex; being overly nice to him, doting on him, always offering to help him with his work so I could be cloer to him. Wearing perfume to work, asking him his opinions about things of me so he would focus on me. (I was trying to distract him and get him to focus on me.(suduction)) It worked.......He too had marriage problems and he ended up on the same path as I was.

 

Eventually, we ended up having an affair and it wasn't pleasant except when we were the IN-THE-MOMENT of interaction.

The guilt and confusion felt like a 2-ton pickup on my shoulders with a 2 x 4 beating against my brain and heart. Eventually it began to eat away at my morals and values and I became resentful of my husband more and displayed it and I wasn't myself anymore.

 

I actually ended the affair 6 months later. It was hard, I cried a lot, I rejected my husband in all ways by then. I sought counseling and I was so racked with guilt and worthlessness for betrying my own values and morals I couldn't admit the affair with my counselor and seeking help was unsuccessful.

 

I eventually divorced my husband for other reasons but my part in being an unfaithful wife and breaking my marriage vows almost caused me to have a breakdown.

 

The same year I divorced my husband the MM was also divorced and found out. He sought me out and we reunited without anything holding us back. 4.5 years later I broke it off with him. He stalked me, harrassed me and tried to create defamation of my character.

 

I thought the grass was greener on the otherside. I thought he was my dream. Once the walls were all down it was not so amazingly wonderful. I see why I was caught up in the illusion now --years later. I couldn't see it then because I was emotionally caught up in him.

 

So that is some of my side of the desiring perception of wanting someone who is forbidden and the struggle with it.

 

Your struggle in this sitation is your cognition. NOT emotions. I will explain this:

'All your moods are created by your "cognitions", or thoughts. A cognition refers to the way you look at things --- your perceptions, mental attitudes, and beliefs. It includes the way you interpret things -- what you say about something or somone to yourself. You feel the way you do right now because of the thoughts you are thinking at this moment.'

 

'The moment you have a certain thought an believe it, you will experience an immediate emotional response. Your thought actually creates the emotion.'

 

'Your thoughts which cause your emotional turmoil nearly always contain gross distortions. Although these thoughts appear valid, you will learn that they are irrational or just plain wrong, and that twisted thinking is a major cause of your suffering.'

 

You both are married. No marriage is perfect and no other person can give you all you desire in a mate.

You need to figure out what it is in this OW that you get, that you don't get from your wife. It could be something simple that your not aware of.

 

Ex: When you speak to your wife does she look you in the eyes and smile when you share something with her? (Does she give you intimate interaction?)

 

If the answer is no:

 

Then ask youself if the OW does this?

 

If the answer is yes:

 

then that simple thing could be what you are missing intensely in your marriage that you really want from your spouse and are not getting.

 

Not everything has to be a great big huge problem in a marriage to cause an affair.

 

Through all my research, counseling and experiences and taking an honest look at myself-- I have learned that a lot of emotional, mental and physical affairs are a result of some unmet need or a breakdown of a quality you expect to always be in your marriage.

 

I would suggest trying to recognizing what it is in this OW that your not getting from your W and try to build or rebuild that connection with your wife.

Men are visual creatures and a pretty face and great body can stimulate a physical response in yourself. Don't feed it. You will only start a fire you won't be able to easily put out.

 

You may not realize it but you are setting yourself up to create a situation with this OW, her H, and your W that you think you can control by pulling everyone together.

The saying 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer' can be altered to form a false belief that if you got her H and your W closer to the two of you and both can be in better control of hiding an A if she lets her guard down and one physically begins.

 

YOU WILL GET CAUGHT and you WILL burn yourself.

 

Most of this thread is about emotions and illusions. Strip away all that and look at the facts. Use LOGIC and not your emotional response to your thoughts to work through this.

 

 

I've read some great books on helping yourself take control of your life.

Mine research and study is mostly targeted towards changing my negative belief systems, taking control of my life and creating possitive forces in my life. With all my study is understanding where depression comes from and why we do what we do in our lives. If you are interested in any of these books let me know so I can post them for you or anyone else. I don't believe everything I read but I have found some points very intuitive, helpful and a great source of help in changing my life and image of myself.

 

 

 

I believe that your obsession with this OW is a product of something she does (like: listening to you openly without judgement, smiling or eye contact when you speak. ect that your wife no longer is doing as genuinely because of the struggles of the daily grind of life, marriage and family.)

 

You need to figure out this temptation logically regarding the OW and see the comparision to your W and start making the effort to get these qualities from your W before you do something that will take years to get over. You will damage yourself beyound the pain you are struggling with now.

 

I don't know if I am making any sense to you but I sure hope something I said will ring in your head.

 

Men are more logical then women. Women naturally tend to feel more then men.. It's time for you to get your logic in focus and be realistic. It is hard when your emotions run high..

 

Remember the quotes I put indented. It is your cognitions that create your emotions. So start to see what your cognitions are saying to yourself.

We create cognitions immediately and almost as fast we form an emotion attached to it. Feelings can't always be trusted. If you don't view something realistically your feelings wont be true even though you believe they are true.

 

Your in a mental prison right now, its an illusion, a hoax you have inadvertently created, but it seems real because it feels real.

Your thoughts create your emotions;, therefore, your emtions cannot prove that your thoughts are accurate. Unpleasant feelings merely indicate that you are thinking something negative and believing it. Your emotions follow your thoughts.

 

 

Test your beliefs and your thinking ignor your feelings right now. I know its hard but do your best...

 

There are many beautiful women (and men) to the eye but I believe its how someone treats us (cognition recognizes this) that makes us feel that intense chemistry/attraction (we want to be with that person because we feel good with them--which is created by the cognition).

 

We all want good interactions with others. When this happens we feel loved, important and special. When we are treated certain possitive ways we see ourselves as being valued and important.

 

No one person on this planet is perfect and can fullfill our vanities.

It is easy to be selfish and self focused. That causes us to stray and seek others to fill these voids in our pride and self-worth. (like affairs).

 

Sort out your cognitions of what is what and what the OW does that your W doesn't or has stopped doing.

 

Then I suggest you talk with her or work on you to get things back.

 

You are letting your emotions control your life.

You are being reactive/responsive.

You are not aware of everything you do. Sub-conciously you are doing things you don't realize you do until afterwards. Like trying to get a glimpse of this OW at work to get your fix and if she looks back at you you get an extra dose of seratonin flushing your senses.

You will become your own addict if its not to late.

 

Get yourself in check and work on recognizing your compensating behaviors and choices.

 

I know this first hand because I am a Professional at denial, compensating behaviors, over reacting and responding to situations, filling my selfish desires and not being responsible for myself. I blame shift my problems which I have created for myself so I dont have to be responsible for myself.

 

When I was first told to take a look at myself I denied I was like this. It has taken me two years to understand and see the truth...

 

 

I want to go on and on about this. I am known to be very wordy in LS. So I will stop.

 

You may think I'm being cold, judgemental, inconsiderate, that I don't make any sense, bla bla bla. That is alright.

We each have our own timing in understanding and accepting.

 

Maybe some of what I have said is over board or I am projecting myself.

 

I can say I do understand your situation because I have been there and I went further then you have. Details are and can be different but the reactions and responses to situations can be the same and very familiar.

 

Very heart wrenching and beautifully spoken by someone who has faced the true full reality of your situation.

[Mary3]

Mary, I will not be your sparring partner any longer. I know you mean well.

 

I don't know anymore why I am posting here so I'm going to stop.

 

Go ahead and hammer me for that previous sentence if you must.

 

The fact that you don't get my point about sex and love(or limerence) is why you will never be able to understand what I am thinking.

 

This thread has turned into an infidelity discussion, and that's fine with me, but it's not what this is about.

 

I would hope you would not walk away from these Posts but rather understand that I am a Realist.

That part of me will always be there.

I try to strip the rose colored glasses off for my own life. Its essential to understand the *reality* to me about most things.

I hope you understand that part.

 

I am also looking from the other side....So like most , we offer the best advice from what we see.

I have to tell you after being single that its the * actions * that I pay attention to. Critical for my own heart and well being. To protect it so you can understand that I am viewing your *actions* . That is what I see thus far...

 

Okay : I try to segregate sex and love.

 

I am able to understand that a man can have sex with you and not love you.

I sometimes wonder about the man who is making love to you and saying " I love you " and does he really mean it ?

Is he saying it because it ensures more sex ?

So please don't think I am confused about the difference of love and sex.

 

To not want to Post back to my responses is Okay but if any of this made a difference in your way of thinking about your life as it is right now then I feel okay about that.

 

We are not a ripping team here. We post here regularly. We honestly try to help people. If you are a con artist , abuser , drunk or whatever ( as an example ) I will give it to you straight about what I think .

If you ask " Am I a problem drinker " ? ( as an example ) I am going to give you my most realistic honest answer.

 

Do you want an honest evaluation ? Hope we don't drive you away because we do want to help you to come to the best solutions for your life.

[uplooker80]

I am able to understand that a man can have sex with you and not love you.

I sometimes wonder about the man who is making love to you and saying " I love you " and does he really mean it ?

Is he saying it because it ensures more sex ?

So please don't think I am confused about the difference of love and sex.

 

 

What you don't seem to get Mary (and a few others), is that a man can love a woman and not have sex with her. You are hopelessly stuck on the notion that this is all about sex and infidelity, and being able to execute rational decisions. If I was able to think and act like a robot, I wouldn't have posted here in the first place.

 

This has all gotten way off topic, and I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but here I go again.

 

This thread has obviously become entertaining to everyone, because I am plainly too stupid to do the right thing.

 

There is no help for me, I will have to crash and burn on my own.

 

Mary, this is just not as simple as you make it out to be.

 

Now I'm quoting myself:

 

None of this is "black and white", linear, rational or consistent. This is why I am struggling so much.

 

 

The above statement is truly the only way I can give any insight into what this is like.

[blueberry1]

CrossRhodes is the only one who really gets what you are going through re. this limerance thing. When I get a chance, I'm going to read more about that aspect of it. Hang in there!

[CrossRhodes]

What you don't seem to get Mary (and a few others), is that a man can love a woman and not have sex with her. You are hopelessly stuck on the notion that this is all about sex and infidelity, and being able to execute rational decisions. If I was able to think and act like a robot, I wouldn't have posted here in the first place.

 

I think it's hard for people who haven't experienced it to appreciate how it disrupts relationships. With my girl, what I ultimately really wanted was the friendship. As some have said, it's very difficult to have a friendship with someone you are in love with. That's the bit that bites for me, because in all other respects, it would be an awesome friendship. So now I'm faced with the decision about whether to stop contact with her altogether ... yet I care about her so much?

 

I remember vividly how my own limerence started this last time. There was very definitely physical attraction, but that became a sideshow to my feelings for her. One day she was very late for work and no-one had her phone number. I found myself standing at the office window looking out for her, like a puppy dog waiting sorrowfully for its master. That's when I realised that I had fallen in love with her.

 

This thread has obviously become entertaining to everyone, because I am plainly too stupid to do the right thing.

 

There is no help for me, I will have to crash and burn on my own.

 

Mary, this is just not as simple as you make it out to be.

 

Entertaining? I would say educational - just look at the number of views on this thread! There are very definitely a lot of people reading this thread who are getting something valuable out of it. I certainly am and I am grateful for all the continued contributions, even from people who I disagree with vehemently. Even the seemingly-negative posts compel me to think about my own situation differently.

 

There are very definitely a number of people in this thread who have a strong affinity with what you are going through because of their own direct experience. Some can only project and map the parts of their own experience that match theirs e.g. infidelity. It is inescapably a factor here in the big picture, but I recognise that it isn't what drove you here. What brought you here (I think) was the bewilderment at your feelings for a co-worker, feelings that you didn't necessarily want to have, which were disruptive to your friendship and potentially troublesome to your marriage.

 

I get where Mary is coming from I think. My wife was like this - she believed very strongly in looking at people's actions rather than their words. I'm the opposite - I tend to put stock in the words. I feel frustrated sometimes by Mary's replies because I keep thinking, "Just read the bloody Wikipedia entry!" But then I remember how my wife was, and I start to appreciate that she just had a different approach. It's a useful approach too - take the current US Government for example. They delight in the use of Orwellian language. But when a realist looks, say, at the early stages of the Iraq War, they see the great effort that went into protecting the oil assets and they can see right through the fog of lies.

 

Anyway, now I'm rambling. I'll close off by saying that I tend to think that no-one can give you a nice cut-and-dried solution here. The big win in this thread was identifying limerence, which I think you did all by yourself. That affords a chance to do a lot more reading, and even to discuss the idea with other limerents on the Net.

 

Even the limerents here will have had subtly different experiences that do not quite match yours. And maybe in the end there is no satisfying solution, other than the recognition of our limerence and our tendency to develop it. In my own case, I feel so much better having identified that I am prone to it. My goal will be to tame limerence in my relationships rather than try to neutralise it. I still think it can be an enriching experience.

[whichwayisup]

I hope you don't leave, I hope you continue posting.

 

What you don't seem to get Mary (and a few others), is that a man can love a woman and not have sex with her. You are hopelessly stuck on the notion that this is all about sex and infidelity, and being able to execute rational decisions. If I was able to think and act like a robot, I wouldn't have posted here in the first place.

 

I understand what you're saying...And if you feel you can be just friends with her, well then try to.

My only real concern (has been all along) is how your wife will react to all this. You may not look at it as cheating, or doing any harm, but in the long run it will.

Being consumed with thoughts of another woman, a deep care like what you feel for your coworker IS a threat to your wife. Trust me, your wife isn't going to like the fact that you "love" this other woman. Just please be aware of your wife's feelings.

 

If your wife told you it upsets her that you've befriended this woman, and she (your wife) asked you to stop ALL communication with the coworker, could you stop? Would you want to stop? You don't have to answer my questions here, these are for you so you can think things over.

 

Hope this makes sense, and again, I hope you don't leave.

[uplooker80]

CrossRhodes, you have made a nice summary with your last post.

 

I have calmed down now.

 

The right wing religious rants set me off. A while ago it was "all men are dogs". I'm through with trading barbs with Mary and others who somehow manage to completely dismiss the struggle as not being real.

 

Blueberry and yourself and a few others have tremendous insight and progressed further into this than I have.

 

I really don't have anything else to add.

 

I realize that to help myself I should either quit my job (impossible), get therapy (next to impossible and of questionable value), or go down the path I have inexplicably selected (friendship with resolution of the limerance or a very long acting job on my part).

 

Like I said earlier, I may report back on how things go when we all get together. I will be the lab rat on this one.

[persistant]

This thread has obviously become entertaining to everyone, because I am plainly too stupid to do the right thing.

 

There is no help for me, I will have to crash and burn on my own.

 

 

This thread is not for entertainment.

Please understand we only want to attempt to help you.

Most of us do speak from our own experiences. No two people have the exact same experience in any given situation. We all take things differently and perceive them at our own levels of cognition.

 

I do not agree with your self perceptions either. You are not stupid.

Don't claim this of yourself.

 

There is always help for everyone. Usually, the help is within ourselves. Others can only offer suggestions for you to play around with in your own mind to test your own therories.

 

There are times we all have to crash to understand. This doesn't mean we have to burn.

 

I'm not certain what this word 'limerance' really means but I'm pretty sure that I too have been there.

 

I have developed feelings for someone whom I didn't act out anything with and had a hard time letting go of. I veiwed him as my friend and wanted as my friend but I found I was attracted to him.

 

I'm going to research this word out.

 

Please don't be upset with Mary3 or myself or others who you perceive to not understand your position. Many of us have gone deeper then where you are at and we don't want to see you follow similiar paths as we have.

If you do, then you too will have more wisdom about lifes experiences.

 

Without struggles we do not grow. We do not mature. We do not create for ourselves life.

 

As for coming back to this thread when you don't want too; I believe it will be difficult for you to totally ignor your own thread out of curiosity that someone new may post some words that will stimulate your own answers within yourself.

All it takes is one word, one sentence, or one paragraph to open a door to your own realization that you haven't found in yourself yet.

 

Don't allow yourself to get so discouraged you paralyze yourself.

[uplooker80]

Persistant, thank you very much for your posts.

 

(you too Mary)

[persistant]

I just read up really quick on the word 'limerance'.

 

I have been in that situation more times then I can count.

 

I'm 38 years old and was married and now divorced. I have had numerous relationships in my life and have struggled with 'limerance' more then I want to admit.

 

I also know from personal experience that this can fall into a situation that could really cause you much heartache. Especially, if this OW someday returns her interest in you..

 

Be careful.

 

I personally think that instead of feeding your desires to get closer to her by having her marriage and yours befriend each other you should be distancing yourself as best you can and find your focus on your W.

 

I suspect there is a deteriation somewhere in your relationship with your wife that this OW is someone fullfilling that which is missing or deteriorating.

 

If you love your wife and want your marriage you need to practice focusing on your marriage and not feeding the easy gratification you get from the OW.

 

Again, I am only drawing assumptions based on the info you provided, my own experiences and my gutt instinct.

[uplooker80]

I hope you don't leave, I hope you continue posting.

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying...And if you feel you can be just friends with her, well then try to.

My only real concern (has been all along) is how your wife will react to all this. You may not look at it as cheating, or doing any harm, but in the long run it will.

Being consumed with thoughts of another woman, a deep care like what you feel for your coworker IS a threat to your wife. Trust me, your wife isn't going to like the fact that you "love" this other woman. Just please be aware of your wife's feelings.

 

If your wife told you it upsets her that you've befriended this woman, and she (your wife) asked you to stop ALL communication with the coworker, could you stop? Would you want to stop? You don't have to answer my questions here, these are for you so you can think things over.

 

Hope this makes sense, and again, I hope you don't leave.

 

Very interesting questions, ones that I hope she will not have to ask. If she did, the answers would be yes.

[DarkBlue]

*sigh*

 

I just want to say that I can sort of understand the limerance thing. Of course others are gonna tell you your stupid for obsessing but I know from my own experience it's easier said then done when you feel really attached emotionally to someone. I think I'm going through it too.. except it's really hard to push myself away from feeling the way I do about the married man I like that's also a freind because I've got no husband or wife to lose... but I could lose his friendship if I'm misreading his signals. His friendship is so important to me.. which means I guess I can't be with him even if he likes me back.. because then I wouldn't be a very good friend helping him to mess up his life. I really think he does like me back but he's as confused as I am.. or he did.. he was being really flirty and all of the sudden stopped.. but every once in awhile says something or does something that indicates he has feelings for me then seems to catch himself and stops. I don't know. I just wish somedays that I had the courage to give him an unexpected kiss the next time he gets all flirty with me... I think entirely to much on every little thing he does good or bad to me.. *sigh* I convince myself I wish he'd stop giving me mixed signals, and just stop, or either he or I would just disappear from each others lives so I can move on.. but when I did NC for a few weeks it nearly drove me mad, and then when I saw him again and he flirted and I was all like "he needs to stop flirting with me" and the next time I saw him and he practically ignored me I got all mad like "WHY ISNT HE FLIRTING TODAY?!?!" and got all upset and felt ugly and ignored. When he flirts with me I feel this validation that I'm pretty and worth something and it doesn't seem to work if anyone else says it.. it has to be him. I don't know why his opinion of me stands at such a higher level but it does. It's really frustrating and heart breaking.. but I'm proud of myself for not doing anything stupid or irrational yet. I feel somedays like I'm going to break down though and do something terribly stupid just because I can't stand being so confused and not knowing for sure exactly how he likes me, or if he likes me at all.. or he's just nice and flirty out of pity or something.

[blueberry1]

DarkBlue...is this MM your boss? Just wondering, because I (married)have somewhat the same problem as you, with the hot/cold type reactions from my married boss, although he has alot on his mind lately re. the business he runs, and that takes precedence of course. I find that a small part of my attraction to him is because he is the boss and I like that "take charge" type. The only problem is I want him to "take charge" of me, if you get my drift, lol! I just have to try and keep somewhat of a sense of humour about all this. What has made this more weird is that one of my family members has formed a friendship with one of his family members (don't want to say who for fear someone I know reads this). Kind of like what Uplooker was planning to do with his limerant interest, bring the two families together. But in my case, it wasn't my idea to do it and I have no control over the situation.

[Mary3]

What you don't seem to get Mary (and a few others), is that a man can love a woman and not have sex with her. You are hopelessly stuck on the notion that this is all about sex and infidelity, and being able to execute rational decisions. If I was able to think and act like a robot, I wouldn't have posted here in the first place.

 

This has all gotten way off topic, and I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but here I go again.

 

This thread has obviously become entertaining to everyone, because I am plainly too stupid to do the right thing.

 

There is no help for me, I will have to crash and burn on my own.

 

Mary, this is just not as simple as you make it out to be.

 

Now I'm quoting myself:

 

 

 

The above statement is truly the only way I can give any insight into what this is like.

 

Well, when I love someone I want to have sex with him .

 

Call me crazy ....but its part of all the package

 

Okay, I gotcha now. You love her. You don't want to have sex with her. You won't commit infidelity. You won't leave your wife for her.

 

You said I had no idea of what limerant behavior really meant but you are wrong. I once had it very strong for someone and lost everything I own. I persued it. I breathed it. I lived it and then I ended it. Sort of a crash and burn of my life....

 

I never said this was simple . This is incredibly difficult for you. I don't think any hard decisions in life are * simple *

 

I did my best here.

 

I am compelled to try to help people in whatever way I can. I am sorry that you felt your post was joisted about and meant for clown entertainment purposes. .....

[DarkBlue]

DarkBlue...is this MM your boss? Just wondering, because I (married)have somewhat the same problem as you, with the hot/cold type reactions from my married boss, although he has alot on his mind lately re. the business he runs, and that takes precedence of course. I find that a small part of my attraction to him is because he is the boss and I like that "take charge" type. The only problem is I want him to "take charge" of me, if you get my drift, lol! I just have to try and keep somewhat of a sense of humour about all this. What has made this more weird is that one of my family members has formed a friendship with one of his family members (don't want to say who for fear someone I know reads this). Kind of like what Uplooker was planning to do with his limerant interest, bring the two families together. But in my case, it wasn't my idea to do it and I have no control over the situation.

 

I think....Sometimes he is. I'm still trying to figuire that out. We both do a variety of different things as entertainers at the same place. Most of the time he is an actor like anyone else, but every once in awhile he takes on the role as a director or performance coach and at those times he is kind of pseudo in charge. I thought this was problematic at first but from what I've gathered asking aorund discretley they don't care about people having relationships at work with their superiors unless it's something like the person didn't work for the company..they are known to be dating one of the superiors and 'THEN they suddenly magically get hired. Blueberry, I think we have a similar enough situation to relate to each other though. For me what it is about him is he is so motivated and accomplishes so much. He inspires me and I feel protected under his wing.. like I can do anything as long as he believes in me and keeps encouraging me like he has been. It just feels so good to know someone as talented and accomplished as he is thinks that I'm talented and sees potential in me. (and thinks I'm cute)

[crazy_grl]

I don't know anymore why I am posting here so I'm going to stop.

 

Sorry that you don't feel like we're helping you, Uplooker.

 

Maybe it's me being paranoid, but I get the feeling that you consider me as one of the unhelpful people, because you think I don't understand what you're going through. That's not at all the case.

 

The fact that you don't get my point about sex and love(or limerence) is why you will never be able to understand what I am thinking.

 

This thread has turned into an infidelity discussion, and that's fine with me, but it's not what this is about.

 

Whether this is about sex or not, it is about infidelity.

 

The fact that this isn't just about sex almost makes it worse. You don't have many posts, so I'm not sure if you've read much of the forum, but are you familiar with the term "emotional affair"? If not, read some of the threads on it and how EAs can be just as devastating, if not more so, than meaningless physical affairs.

 

You love another woman and focus a lot of energy on her. That's taking away energy that should be spent on your wife, and unless I'm recalling something another poster said, I think it was you who said your wife would be devastated to know you had these kinds of feelings for another woman.

 

Like it or not, the relationship you have with this OW (though seemingly one-sided) is very much an EA.

 

is that a man can love a woman and not have sex with her.

 

If you haven't read some of infidelity or OW/OM threads, please do. Maybe you understand this, but it seems to me like you're not getting the idea that the feelings you have for this woman plus having her in close proximity has the potential to easily lead to physical things happening.

 

While you may not be looking for sex, can you honestly say that there is not even a small possibility that you'd want her physically, not even in a moment of weakness? (You don't have to answer. That's just something for you think about yourself.)

 

It may not be your intention to sleep with her, but imagine one night you, your W, and the OW are having drinks at your place. Your W is tired, so she goes to bed. You haven't drank as much as the OW and you're a gentleman, so you offer to drive her home (or ride with her in a taxi to make sure she gets home ok). Your wife doesn't mind, because she trusts you with the OW (her friend). The OW's husband is working late that night, so he's not home. You walk her to her door. Both of your judgements are impaired by the alcohol. It's just you and her (a woman you love and find very attractive) all alone at her house. Can you see how that can be dangerous?

 

Not only that, but being friends with her could be painful for you. Imagine that jealousy you have toward her boss? What would that feel like amplified toward her husband? Is it going to kill you inside to watch him holding her hand, kissing her, etc?

 

If you want to be friends with this woman, I hope for your sake that I'm wrong. I think it'd be great if that solved everything for you. You just need to be prepared for what you could be getting yourself into.

 

CrossRhodes is the only one who really gets what you are going through re. this limerance thing.

 

From what I read about limerance, I've had many limerent experiences. I must be a person prone to limerence. I just don't think it should be used as an excuse for behavior... and I don't really like the term. It sounds trivial to me. Makes me think of some kind of frolicking leprechauns or something.

 

Anyway, I've got a great deal of experience getting over these types of feelings. And I learned that I had to do a lot of 'tricking' myself to get my feelings and thoughts to match up with what the logical part of my brain wanted me to be thinking and feeling.

 

The main problem is that those "limerent" thoughts and feelings are addictive and hard to part with.

 

The highs that other person gives you are amazing, but the lows are devastating. I remember hearing that one of the guys I was "limerent" about had a new gf. I didn't know if it was true, and I really didn't even want to date the guy myself. Even though he brought me all these great feelings, I knew dating him wasn't a good choice. But the thought that he might have a new gf kept me up all night. It was aweful. All for someone that I didn't really want, but couldn't shut off those whacked-out feelings for. (And it turns out he didn't even have a gf anyway. )

 

Once I really set my mind to it, it took me a couple months to get rid of those feelings. But I had to pretty much stop talking to him, even though I work with him and his office is right next to mine. I even asked my boss if I could move my office. (I didn't tell him why, so he didn't let me.) One of the simpliest but most effective things for me has been to not make eye contact. I know people don't like to stop talking to the person, because they think they're being rude and it'll hurt the other person's feelings, but realistically, it's probably not that big of a deal and they'll get over it. It's been over 6 months and I don't have those feelings anymore. I do think they could possibly come back if I let them, but I know they ultimately do me more harm than good, which is all the more reason not to have him in my life any more than necessary. I do talk to him now and spend some time with him outside work when we're in a group, but I know I have to be conscious of this potential problem.

 

As I've said before, Uplooker, I hope you'll do what's best for you. We clearly disagree on what would be best, but since you've chosen you coarse of action, I hope for your sake that you prove me wrong.

[Mary3]

Sorry that you don't feel like we're helping you, Uplooker.

 

Maybe it's me being paranoid, but I get the feeling that you consider me as one of the unhelpful people, because you think I don't understand what you're going through. That's not at all the case.

 

 

 

Whether this is about sex or not, it is about infidelity.

 

The fact that this isn't just about sex almost makes it worse. You don't have many posts, so I'm not sure if you've read much of the forum, but are you familiar with the term "emotional affair"? If not, read some of the threads on it and how EAs can be just as devastating, if not more so, than meaningless physical affairs.

 

You love another woman and focus a lot of energy on her. That's taking away energy that should be spent on your wife, and unless I'm recalling something another poster said, I think it was you who said your wife would be devastated to know you had these kinds of feelings for another woman.

 

Like it or not, the relationship you have with this OW (though seemingly one-sided) is very much an EA.

 

 

 

If you haven't read some of infidelity or OW/OM threads, please do. Maybe you understand this, but it seems to me like you're not getting the idea that the feelings you have for this woman plus having her in close proximity has the potential to easily lead to physical things happening.

 

While you may not be looking for sex, can you honestly say that there is not even a small possibility that you'd want her physically, not even in a moment of weakness? (You don't have to answer. That's just something for you think about yourself.)

 

It may not be your intention to sleep with her, but imagine one night you, your W, and the OW are having drinks at your place. Your W is tired, so she goes to bed. You haven't drank as much as the OW and you're a gentleman, so you offer to drive her home (or ride with her in a taxi to make sure she gets home ok). Your wife doesn't mind, because she trusts you with the OW (her friend). The OW's husband is working late that night, so he's not home. You walk her to her door. Both of your judgements are impaired by the alcohol. It's just you and her (a woman you love and find very attractive) all alone at her house. Can you see how that can be dangerous?

 

Not only that, but being friends with her could be painful for you. Imagine that jealousy you have toward her boss? What would that feel like amplified toward her husband? Is it going to kill you inside to watch him holding her hand, kissing her, etc?

 

If you want to be friends with this woman, I hope for your sake that I'm wrong. I think it'd be great if that solved everything for you. You just need to be prepared for what you could be getting yourself into.

 

 

 

From what I read about limerance, I've had many limerent experiences. I must be a person prone to limerence. I just don't think it should be used as an excuse for behavior... and I don't really like the term. It sounds trivial to me. Makes me think of some kind of frolicking leprechauns or something.

 

Anyway, I've got a great deal of experience getting over these types of feelings. And I learned that I had to do a lot of 'tricking' myself to get my feelings and thoughts to match up with what the logical part of my brain wanted me to be thinking and feeling.

 

The main problem is that those "limerent" thoughts and feelings are addictive and hard to part with.

 

The highs that other person gives you are amazing, but the lows are devastating. I remember hearing that one of the guys I was "limerent" about had a new gf. I didn't know if it was true, and I really didn't even want to date the guy myself. Even though he brought me all these great feelings, I knew dating him wasn't a good choice. But the thought that he might have a new gf kept me up all night. It was aweful. All for someone that I didn't really want, but couldn't shut off those whacked-out feelings for. (And it turns out he didn't even have a gf anyway. )

 

Once I really set my mind to it, it took me a couple months to get rid of those feelings. But I had to pretty much stop talking to him, even though I work with him and his office is right next to mine. I even asked my boss if I could move my office. (I didn't tell him why, so he didn't let me.) One of the simpliest but most effective things for me has been to not make eye contact. I know people don't like to stop talking to the person, because they think they're being rude and it'll hurt the other person's feelings, but realistically, it's probably not that big of a deal and they'll get over it. It's been over 6 months and I don't have those feelings anymore. I do think they could possibly come back if I let them, but I know they ultimately do me more harm than good, which is all the more reason not to have him in my life any more than necessary. I do talk to him now and spend some time with him outside work when we're in a group, but I know I have to be conscious of this potential problem.

 

As I've said before, Uplooker, I hope you'll do what's best for you. We clearly disagree on what would be best, but since you've chosen you coarse of action, I hope for your sake that you prove me wrong.

 

You are 100% correct that when your SO is emotionally involved with another woman then he is taking away from his wife...

 

I once had this situation where a boyfriend was having feelings for another girl he had known from his past and was now in contact with her.

My bf should have given all his attentions to me but was busy with someone else.

 

I know how unfair this is the the OP's wife in this situation. Its just very, very unfair.

[Ariadne]

Hi you,

 

Well, I know exactly what you are going through.

 

I didn't read all the posts and I'm late catching up with this thread, but I read most of your posts.

 

Anyway, my feeling is that you want to posses her in every way shape or form that you can.

 

If you can't have her as a mistress, because you don't want to cross the line, and even best, because she is so amazing and wouldn't do a thing to her husband...

 

You want to go to "her house", "see what her house looks like", "see where she spends her evenings", "see how she decorated it", "know her husband" (what did she see in him, he must be super, my hero, and he gets to have her), "get your wife to be her friend" (so that she can talk to you about her and tell you more things about her), "have her come to your house", etc etc.

 

Warning. Next thing you know, you'll be going through her garbage.

 

I think all of this is going to make you even more crazy than you already are, and eventually will blow the top. And God knows what will happen then.

 

But I know the desire to own every part of her that you can is going to be too overwhelming to even try and stopping it.

 

Best of luck to you, I've been there too (couldn't sleep all night listening to music, couldn't eat, lost tons of weight, exercised like a maniac, and it didn't work).

 

Ariadne

[uplooker80]

Alright, you have managed to pin a negative outcome to my thoughts/actions….the “emotional affair”.

 

Mary3, you’ve relentlessly made me defend myself on the sexual misconduct front, and now this. Fair enough. I can’t argue about this one. You are correct.

 

You and others have set up a Dr. Phil “master of the obvious” intervention where I will see the light because I now understand the potential consequences. I’m not arguing that you are wrong about me hurting someone or that I’m not being fair to my wife, or my coworker.

 

I’m afraid that at least in my case, pointing out the pitfalls of my situation doesn’t work for me.

 

It looks like I’m not willing or able to accept help, and I suppose that is true to a certain extent.

 

In this sense, this must be an addiction, because consequences don’t affect my thinking.

 

Here’s the real question, or set of questions. Is limerance bona fide, or just a convenient excuse for bad behavior?

 

If limerance is real, how do you deal with it? Is it controllable?

 

Is limerance a natural, healthy human emotion that actually has a use in today’s society if controlled, or a primitive instinct that is no longer useful, or a mental illness?

 

Are there degrees of severity of limerance?

 

Has everyone been affected by limerance at one time or another, or are only some susceptible?

 

Do males experience limerence differently than females?

 

Or maybe I am simply a male, happily married for over 20 years, who has never even thought about another woman as a love interest, who then literally overnight has fallen in an obsessive way for a coworker he has known for several years, who prior to this has had absolutely no feelings for whatsoever. I am not saying this sarcastically.

 

I suppose it could all be that simple and I’m making a big deal out of something totally ordinary.

 

This thread has become too long to follow logically anymore, and I think my story is now lost.

 

I do feel a little better about all of this, because some of you have been able to identify with the desperate feeling of having little or no control over your mind and heart. Mary3, you used an interesting phrase to describe my self admitted ridiculous jealousy of my boss; “off the hook”. I couldn’t have put it better myself. This whole thing is “off the hook”. I really should get a grip.

 

It’s been an interesting discussion. I am no longer looking for help, (at least here). I have confided the situation in my best friend. This has helped me air it out a bit more.

 

To be fair, I think every poster has added valuable third party perspective.

 

The friendship die has been cast; I will see where it takes me.

[blueberry1]

Uplooker80. It's weird, I was just going to ask if you have a friend you can talk to about this, and now I read that you did confide in your best friend! What is his (or her,lol, just joking) take on the whole thing? I have to be honest and say that after reading about this limerance think a bit, it was just that one psychologist who came up with this, doing surveys, etc. and from what it also says, limerance isn't a generally recognized thing. (at the risk of annoying CrossRhodes). I think what you have is a form of what others of us deal with, undying love of some kind. Have your two families gotten together yet?Let us know what happens if you can! By the way, I didn't tell you this before, but I too confided in someone about my situation, and without going into details (because I'm paranoid enough about someone picking up on this that I know!) the "cat got out of the bag" to the MM's W so to speak, and I had to go into denial mode which thankfully worked. That's all I can say.

[Mary3]

Alright, you have managed to pin a negative outcome to my thoughts/actions….the “emotional affair”.

 

Mary3, you’ve relentlessly made me defend myself on the sexual misconduct front, and now this. Fair enough. I can’t argue about this one. You are correct.

 

You and others have set up a Dr. Phil “master of the obvious” intervention where I will see the light because I now understand the potential consequences. I’m not arguing that you are wrong about me hurting someone or that I’m not being fair to my wife, or my coworker.

 

I’m afraid that at least in my case, pointing out the pitfalls of my situation doesn’t work for me.

 

It looks like I’m not willing or able to accept help, and I suppose that is true to a certain extent.

 

In this sense, this must be an addiction, because consequences don’t affect my thinking.

 

Here’s the real question, or set of questions. Is limerance bona fide, or just a convenient excuse for bad behavior?

 

If limerance is real, how do you deal with it? Is it controllable?

 

Is limerance a natural, healthy human emotion that actually has a use in today’s society if controlled, or a primitive instinct that is no longer useful, or a mental illness?

 

Are there degrees of severity of limerance?

 

Has everyone been affected by limerance at one time or another, or are only some susceptible?

 

Do males experience limerence differently than females?

 

Or maybe I am simply a male, happily married for over 20 years, who has never even thought about another woman as a love interest, who then literally overnight has fallen in an obsessive way for a coworker he has known for several years, who prior to this has had absolutely no feelings for whatsoever. I am not saying this sarcastically.

 

I suppose it could all be that simple and I’m making a big deal out of something totally ordinary.

 

This thread has become too long to follow logically anymore, and I think my story is now lost.

 

I do feel a little better about all of this, because some of you have been able to identify with the desperate feeling of having little or no control over your mind and heart. Mary3, you used an interesting phrase to describe my self admitted ridiculous jealousy of my boss; “off the hook”. I couldn’t have put it better myself. This whole thing is “off the hook”. I really should get a grip.

 

It’s been an interesting discussion. I am no longer looking for help, (at least here). I have confided the situation in my best friend. This has helped me air it out a bit more.

 

To be fair, I think every poster has added valuable third party perspective.

 

The friendship die has been cast; I will see where it takes me.

 

Addiction :Strong emotional and /or psychological dependence on a substance such as alcohol or drugs that has progressed beyond voluntary control. "

I was thinking the addiction in your case is the feeling of how she makes you feel and you are having a hard time letting go of that.

 

Uncontrollable craving, seeking, and use of a substance such as a drug or alcohol.

Maybe you * crave * her.

 

A term referring to compulsive drug use, psychological dependence, and continuing use despite harm. Addiction is frequently and incorrectly equated with physical dependence and withdrawal. Physical dependence, not addiction, is an expected result of opioid use.

 

 

compulsion or overpowering urge to use a substance, regardless of potential or actual harm.

" Or a person "

 

Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

 

 

an emotional need for pain medication because of the feeling that is received from the medicine

 

More later Uplooker since you asked multiple questions. We ARE trying to help you along with your friend. Geez, who goes to these lengths ?? and we dont know you , so I hope that proves we do care about our Posters !

[Mary3]

Limerance is the psychological state of deep infatuation. It feels good but rarely lasts. Limerance is that first stage of mad attraction whereby all the hormones are flowing and things feel so right. Limerance lasts, on average, six months. It can progress to love. Most love in fact starts out as limerance, but most limerance never evolves into love.

 

Limerance:A powerful and constantly distracting and obsessive infatuation.

 

Another interesting article :

So... think back on the love(s?) of your life - did they not start out this way? When it's just crazy crazy, you just can't stop thinking about the person you're with, even when you really need to be concentrating on something else (like driving, perhaps, or work). But then little by little it subsides into that warm comfortable feeling that is, yes, always there, but never distracting, just sort of a happy baseline. And of course not all limerance ends up this way. Sometimes you just wake up one morning and *poof* it's gone, and you say to youself "what was I thinking?".