How would you feel in a sexless marriage?

[ThumbingMyWay]

The irony, of course, is that the wives of honorable men like Moose know that their deprived husbands won't leave. Hence, LJ's Negotiation strategy is dead in the water because the only real leverage these husbands possess--threats of an affair, separation and divorce--is worthless because the sex-averse wives know that their miserable husbands aren't going anywhere given their husband's moral codes, commitment to family and religion.

 

Wives, in such circumstances, have no incentive to negotiate.

 

 

 

nice guys finish last...

 

 

 

I think women need 3 men in there lives:

 

Nice Guy: for an understanding friend who doesnt look at them sexually.

 

Moralistic and Honorable Guy: To act as faithful husband and father and also the person who takes half the burden of the daily routine of being in a family.

 

Badboy jerk: To service them in the bedroom

 

 

I am becoming more cynical everyday...and I dont like it.

 

I deserve a wife you desires me in all ways, even the bedroom. Us nice guys, "softies" so to speak, dont get the respect we deserve from our wives.

 

I need to know how to change this, without changing who I am as a person...which quite frankly...I am a pushover nice guy...and I am finding more and more as life goes on....we are the ones women NEED....but not necessarily WANT all the time....

[Ladyjane14]

I have no problem being sole initiator but my wife is gonna have to stand-down some of her current defense tactics:

• winter parka inside the house?
  
• taking a bite of snack just as I approach to kiss goodnite and signal my bedtime?

 

That ought to be part of her end of the agreement.

 

There's a neat little tool called POJA over at marriagebuilders. If you type into your browser "The Policy of Joint Agreemtment, marriagebuilders", you'll find an article.

 

This is a negotiation tool in which both parties must continue to discuss a situation until "Enthusiatic Agreement is reached. Give it a read-through and consider printing it off and sharing it with your wife before you begin the discussion.

[JamesM]

LJ, much as I respect your opinion..and you know I do, I could write a post in just that....I want to give a different take on the cheating. Actually it is not different....just from an experiential view.

 

Yes, I agree it is flat out wrong, but if Mrs Moose refuses to change and refuses to negotiate, she is basically delivering her own ultimatum...or rather challenge. "Sex is YOUR need, not mine, so if you need it, then it is because YOU are selfish. And if you are selfish regarding sex, then you are not giving as a husband should do in his marriage. Deal with it....but don't cheat." I remember well my wife saying similar words. And she actually had the gall to say to me that if I did cheat, "don't ever expect to have sex with me again." I almost laughed out loud.

 

Others have said it, but I have experienced it. Thankfully we are no longer at such a crossroads. If I had been in the position that a woman had put herself in my path, I know I would have fallen. And then I would have been the one breaking my vows rather than my wife?

 

From my observations, most men never take the time to sit down and really discover why they do not have the sex they desire. Some men have a desire that is not realistic, but then some who have sex less than once a month have never really tried to connect with their wives and find out why. It can be more than communication with the wife; it can become a research project. Men are goal oriented. they try to reach a goal...to conquer it. When they have conquered, they move on to new territories. In marriage, they can reach their goals, but those goals will always need to be chased. We must always maintain our territory and goal.

 

Here we have a goal....I need more sex. How do I get it with my wife? What are the problems? How can I solve them? How do I implement the solutions? And then what maintenance is necessary to keep these goals met?

 

As simple as that sounds, we cloud it over with emotions. If I sat back and interviewed Moose and his wife, then came up with a list of problems. We discussed the problems and solutions and how to implement them....I am guessing that we could make progress. And the reverse is true. Moose could sit down with my wife and I and have the same results. (I think professionals call that couples counseling. ) But for both of us, it is hard to sit down with our wives and produce the same results...due to emotions.

 

The challenge for the husband or wife who is in the sexless marriage is to treat your situation as a case study.

[Pink_Tulip]

LJ,

You're assuming #4 is always possible. It isn't always so. Not by a long shot. Take our friend Moose. You think his wife is in any mood to negotiate? Why would she? She likes things just the way they are and subconsciously or not, she knows he can't easily leave. She's much rather he take option #1.

 

And this right here is where your logic faulters. And I don't mean you personally, I mean men in general who have this belief.

 

With this statement, you are basically saying that Mrs. Moose will choose option 1 b/c she doesn't care about her husbands EN's. Do you see that? And the point LJ and I are making is that, she doesn't know this is an EN issue! Do you see the difference? You would be 100% correct to say that yes, some women are that mean and nasty and don't care. But I don't believe for one second this applies to most women.

 

In fact, most women I know are going insane trying to find ways to be emotionally CLOSER to their husbands! They buy all these books, cook nice dinners, keep the house clean, and wonder why they don't have the strong bond that they want. They wonder why thier husbands don't appreciate them. And it is b/c they don't get that their husbands want SEX and an enthusiastic partner, NOT a clean house. See what I mean? There is a famous quote by Stephen Covey that goes, 'people don't see the world as it is, they see it as they are.' Women think, gee, I'd really like a clean house. So thats what they give their husbands, assuming men think like them. And then get their panties in a bunch that hubby isn't falling all over himself with gratitude. Now, if that wife learned a spontanious BJ would not only fulfill her husband's EN's, but also give her the accolades she desires from him, it would be a win win situation.

 

That is what LJ are trying to tell you, your wife doesn't get it.

 

Moose, I used to be like your wife. My life was perfect, I loved my husband, I couldn't have asked for anything more. And if we only had sex a few times a year, so much the better! One of the most hurtful, painful things a woman can feel is being objectified by the man she loves. And I can pretty much guarentee every time you get that crossed arms, rolls the eyes reaction, that is how she is feeling. I know you feel like your communication is good, but there is a huge lapse. You are saying one thing, she is hearing another. She isn't getting it. And I am telling you now as someone who gets it, and has sex with her husband about 5x a week. when she gets it, things will change dramatically. She will not have sex with you out of obligation or fear of you leaving, as some have said. She will have sex with you b/c she finally gets that she is giving the man she loves exactly what he needs, and as a woman, that will make her immensly happy too.

[ThumbingMyWay]

And I am telling you now as someone who gets it, and has sex with her husband about 5x a week. when she gets it, things will change dramatically. She will not have sex with you out of obligation or fear of you leaving, as some have said. She will have sex with you b/c she finally gets that she is giving the man she loves exactly what he needs, and as a woman, that will make her immensly happy too.

 

 

SO TELL US.

 

how do we get our wives to GET IT?

[Scrivdog]

That's always the fear that keeps many men in line isn't it? What will you do when ..? What then?

 

it was Daddy who couldn't keep his pecker in his pants.

I'm sorry .. was I expected to?

 

Because afterall, their mother wasn't the one who ruined the family dynamic

Ah .. THIS is what I meant earlier about Church, society, and TV being against Moose. His wife has nobody to answer to concerning her reprehensible behavior, but the man in this situation sure does.

 

Sure I don't want my kids to be hurt. I also don't want my son to grow up living Moose's life. Not saying what I'm doing is great at all. But for me it's the less of all the evils at my disposal.

 

70 years from now, will there be somebody to put flowers on your marker?

I'll never know

[ThumbingMyWay]

I ask this because...

 

my wife and I have had the "talk" many times. We will have a good spell....then it dwindles down again.

 

its at those times I feel unwanted, undesired and just plan frustrated....and then my minds starts to wander to places i dont like it to.

 

My wife is smoking hot, mid 30's and i just dont understand why her sex drive is all over the board.

 

Cause when she IS ready...I better jump right in.....cause she HATES rejection. But why is it that I am just suppose to "understand" when she rejects me?

 

For instanst....if she comes home at midnight after being out and had a few drinks...she ALWAYS wakes me up for sex....and its great sex. But If i ever came home buzzed up and tried to wake her up for sex.....HOLY BALLS of fire batman....it aint happening....

 

its just not a fair game that is played...

[JackJack]

its just not a fair game that is played...

 

Thats exactly what it sounds like, a game. Maybe the main question is WHY? Why would someone feel the need to play a game like that, its ok for her but not for you kind of game.

 

She can't get passed something maybe? Is she harboring something she can't let go of? Is she secretly punishing you for something?

[Scrivdog]

I, and a few thousand other guys know exactly what you're saying. I'm having a drink to your honor right now.

 

 

I ask this because...

 

my wife and I have had the "talk" many times. We will have a good spell....then it dwindles down again.

 

its at those times I feel unwanted, undesired and just plan frustrated....and then my minds starts to wander to places i dont like it to.

 

My wife is smoking hot, mid 30's and i just dont understand why her sex drive is all over the board.

 

Cause when she IS ready...I better jump right in.....cause she HATES rejection. But why is it that I am just suppose to "understand" when she rejects me?

 

For instanst....if she comes home at midnight after being out and had a few drinks...she ALWAYS wakes me up for sex....and its great sex. But If i ever came home buzzed up and tried to wake her up for sex.....HOLY BALLS of fire batman....it aint happening....

 

its just not a fair game that is played...

[Ladyjane14]

she is basically delivering her own ultimatum...or rather challenge. "Sex is YOUR need, not mine....

 

There's the fly in the ointment... the point that couples FAIL to understand. If I have a problem... then my husband has a problem. If he has a problem then I have one. THAT's the difference between being two individuals and being a couple.

 

When you have two problems at loggerheads like that; he wants sex, she doesn't... the key seems to be in deciding whose problem is bigger.

 

What is wrong with you guys stepping up to the plate and saying... "My problem is bigger than yours... because ultimately if we fail to resolve it, the marriage will end." (????)

 

You guys are telling me that you have this big, huge problem in your lives... but you don't TREAT it like a big, huge problem. Why is that?

 

... she actually had the gall to say to me that if I did cheat, "don't ever expect to have sex with me again." I almost laughed out loud.

 

I've said the same thing to my husband.

And while I didn't really mean the part about him 'going out and getting some if that's what he felt like he needed to do', I most certainly DID mean the part about him never touching me again afterwards.

 

He might as well point a gun at my head as to expose me to some other woman's cooties. Since the advent of AIDS, I've considered unwanted exposure to STDs as a death threat.

 

If he hadn't resolved the problem, he'd have been wiser to divorce me than to cheat on me. I'd have been quite vindictive if faced with adultery.

And if I do say so myself... I'm clever enough to have been GOOD at it.

[Pink_Tulip]

SO TELL US.

 

how do we get our wives to GET IT?

 

My dear, if I knew the exact formula to that, I'd be a billionare sipping drinks in some tropical island.

 

I can only tell you how I got it, and LJ can do the same. As I said earlier in this thread, I was just like Moose's wife. Sex did not interest me. And to dispell some of the other myths I have seen on this forum, it was not b/c my H lacked any skills. He has always been the type who was willing to go above and beyond for me. I just didn't have any kind of sex drive. And I am ashamed to say I did just give him some pity f*cks here and there to keep him quiet. Like many women, since *I* did not have a sex drive, I ASSumed everyone, including men, were wired just like me. I couldn't figure out why he wanted sex so much. I told him to stop thinking about sex so much, and he wouldn't be so horny! LOL! How naive is that?

 

Anyway, some girlfriends and I were out having lunch one day, and we were all complaining about how our husbands always wanted sex. Then one of my friends says, 'Husbands who are happy at home don't go looking for women to screw.' It hit me like a ton of bricks. So I got on the newly invented internet and started reading mens magazines and mens forums, etc. And again, I must admit my motives were not pure. I wanted to prove that men were dogs who'd cheat on their wives for any reason. I don't know why, maybe so I could have some sort of superiority complex thing going on next time he asked for it? To my defense, I was in my early 20's and still pretty much a pain in the ass.

 

Anyway, I found the exact opposite of what I was looking for. I found men like the men on this thread, saying the same things. And I just had an 'Aha!' moment. I don't know how else to explain it. It is very humiliating when you think you know everything, to suddenly learn you weren't even close. So from that day on I made an effort to better understand my husband, even when what he was saying was the opposite of everything I had been told. I learned to trust him, I think that was a big thing for me. I had trust issues, so I never listened to anyone. But I had to make myself realize that he was telling me the truth, not saying things to further his selfish interests. That was hard and didn't happen overnight.

 

And now, years later, I see how much closer our marriage is with regular sex, giving him things he wants that before I believed men would only want to dominate or humiliate their wife with, etc. It is a different relationship we have now, very close, very loving, very secure. Exactly what most women are looking for with their husbands, which is why I keep saying, I honestly believe your wives just don't get it, b/c if they could have with you what I have with my H, they'd be naked in bed waiting for you right now. Hope all that makes sense.

[whichwayisup]

I'm not quite ready to open up and share what's been going on with my husband and I yet..Soon I will.

 

healthy wife who sexually abandons her husband in the middle of a marriage?

 

What about the flipside of this? When the husband isn't "into" his wife, he doesn't "desire her" or "look" at her with lust in his eyes anymore...

 

*I will say, this has nothing to do with love*, I'm talking about what Thumbs and Moose are saying, they desire and WANT their wives, yet their wives could live without sex and still be happy. What if the situation's reversed?

[Pink_Tulip]

I ask this because...

 

my wife and I have had the "talk" many times. We will have a good spell....then it dwindles down again.

 

For instanst....if she comes home at midnight after being out and had a few drinks...she ALWAYS wakes me up for sex....and its great sex. But If i ever came home buzzed up and tried to wake her up for sex.....HOLY BALLS of fire batman....it aint happening....

 

its just not a fair game that is played...

 

Two things that struck me here. When you are having a good spell, are you making sure to reinforce that behavior in her? Meaning, are you extra attentive, doing extra "I love you's," lots of nonsexual touching and cuddling? Are you sure that she sees the connection between her having more sex with you, and your being much more plugged into the relationship and happy?

 

Second, the drunk sex thing goes back to my point about women being objectified by the men they love being so painful. Women don't see sex the same way men do. Unfair? Yes. A double standard? NO. You need sex to connect emotionally, so when your wife jumps you in the middle of the night, you are happy. Your wife needs intimacy to want sex, so when you wake her and try to have sex without making an emotional connection first, she feels objectified.

[Scrivdog]

What if the situation's reversed?

No difference. Problem is the same.

[Ladyjane14]

And I just had an 'Aha!' moment. I don't know how else to explain it. It is very humiliating when you think you know everything, to suddenly learn you weren't even close. So from that day on I made an effort to better understand my husband, even when what he was saying was the opposite of everything I had been told. I learned to trust him, I think that was a big thing for me. I had trust issues, so I never listened to anyone. But I had to make myself realize that he was telling me the truth, not saying things to further his selfish interests. That was hard and didn't happen overnight.

 

 

EXACTLY!!!

[Scrivdog]

I wonder what she is doing to try and establish that connection. Other than the parkas with the cheeto crumbs, of course.

 

Two things that struck me here. When you are having a good spell, are you making sure to reinforce that behavior in her? Meaning, are you extra attentive, doing extra "I love you's," lots of nonsexual touching and cuddling? Are you sure that she sees the connection between her having more sex with you, and your being much more plugged into the relationship and happy?

 

Second, the drunk sex thing goes back to my point about women being objectified by the men they love being so painful. Women don't see sex the same way men do. Unfair? Yes. A double standard? NO. You need sex to connect emotionally, so when your wife jumps you in the middle of the night, you are happy. Your wife needs intimacy to want sex, so when you wake her and try to have sex without making an emotional connection first, she feels objectified.

[ThumbingMyWay]

My dear, if I knew the exact formula to that, I'd be a billionare sipping drinks in some tropical island.

 

I can only tell you how I got it, and LJ can do the same. As I said earlier in this thread, I was just like Moose's wife. Sex did not interest me. And to dispell some of the other myths I have seen on this forum, it was not b/c my H lacked any skills. He has always been the type who was willing to go above and beyond for me. I just didn't have any kind of sex drive. And I am ashamed to say I did just give him some pity f*cks here and there to keep him quiet. Like many women, since *I* did not have a sex drive, I ASSumed everyone, including men, were wired just like me. I couldn't figure out why he wanted sex so much. I told him to stop thinking about sex so much, and he wouldn't be so horny! LOL! How naive is that?

 

Anyway, some girlfriends and I were out having lunch one day, and we were all complaining about how our husbands always wanted sex. Then one of my friends says, 'Husbands who are happy at home don't go looking for women to screw.' It hit me like a ton of bricks. So I got on the newly invented internet and started reading mens magazines and mens forums, etc. And again, I must admit my motives were not pure. I wanted to prove that men were dogs who'd cheat on their wives for any reason. I don't know why, maybe so I could have some sort of superiority complex thing going on next time he asked for it? To my defense, I was in my early 20's and still pretty much a pain in the ass.

 

Anyway, I found the exact opposite of what I was looking for. I found men like the men on this thread, saying the same things. And I just had an 'Aha!' moment. I don't know how else to explain it. It is very humiliating when you think you know everything, to suddenly learn you weren't even close. So from that day on I made an effort to better understand my husband, even when what he was saying was the opposite of everything I had been told. I learned to trust him, I think that was a big thing for me. I had trust issues, so I never listened to anyone. But I had to make myself realize that he was telling me the truth, not saying things to further his selfish interests. That was hard and didn't happen overnight.

 

And now, years later, I see how much closer our marriage is with regular sex, giving him things he wants that before I believed men would only want to dominate or humiliate their wife with, etc. It is a different relationship we have now, very close, very loving, very secure. Exactly what most women are looking for with their husbands, which is why I keep saying, I honestly believe your wives just don't get it, b/c if they could have with you what I have with my H, they'd be naked in bed waiting for you right now. Hope all that makes sense.

 

hhhmmmm....mission: to get my wife to have the "AHA" momment....

 

If she only knew that if she gave more sexually, I woudl give more emotional.........

 

I give affection in hopes of getting some.......but it dont work and I dont get sex...I become withdrawn.....I dont get sex because of that....she finally comes around...and I feel its not genuine....I reject sex out of resentment.....she becomes withdrawn....and WE dont get sex.....

 

I am afraid that the pattern will continue to the point we cannot return from...

 

And I will be in Moose boat....stuck in a marriage where everything is going good except the bedroom....and when the bedroom doesnt fulfill my needs....it leads me to be unhappy in what looks like a happy marriage. But because of my convictions towards marriage....i aint going anywhere...

 

arrggg.

[cranium]

Why in hell would you guys sit around with your thumbs up your asses waiting for women who are NOT AROUSED to initiate sex with you?

 

B/C sitting around isn’t quite as difficult to handle as being rejected time and again. Plus I have this prostate gland and with the right pressure…oh my, I mean, never mind.

 

Yes, we've both read books. I seem to follow them almost to the letter, while I find her captivated for a week or 2, spreading the wisdom she's gained from it only to revert to the same old routine.

 

I’ve read and read. I’ve requested she read and set aside time when she feels comfortable to discuss. She stalls for weeks/months. Like Moose, what changes I do see are limited and then back to the status quo.

 

Ladyjane: And women need to understand that it's not just about the sexual ACT. It's about displaying PASSION for her mate. It's the passionate response that fulfills his need for admiration.

 

This is what I am talking about LJ. Initiating and participating are two different things. Yes, I would like her to reject my approaches less so I don’t have to rely solely on her signals every time, AND I want her to participate and take a more active role regardless of who initiated. It’s about being more active and engaged during the experience. Otherwise, the experience becomes just about HER and not about US.

 

Ladyjane: In the end, I think my advice to you guys would be to tailor your expectations to the woman you married.

 

That said, it's pointless to come to a partner with 'needs' that s/he has NO HOPE of fulfilling. If what you're asking of her is beyond her capability, then all that's left to do is just face the facts that you have married the WRONG person.

What I’m asking of her was not a problem before we were married; her sexual repertoire has changed. Our MC equated it to fraud - Like telling your partner you want children before you're married and then singing a different tune after the wedding.

 

MySugaree - excellent post once again.

 

Pink_TulipWith this statement, you are basically saying that Mrs. Moose will choose option 1 b/c she doesn't care about her husbands EN's. Do you see that? And the point LJ and I are making is that, she doesn't know this is an EN issue! ....That is what LJ are trying to tell you, your wife doesn't get it.

 

Pink, they know. They may not get it, but they know. And, I would love for my wife to objectify me on occasion. I don't like to leave it up to the hot waitress to speak to me only with her eyes.

[Pink_Tulip]

No difference. Problem is the same.

 

Hmm, I am going to have to disagree a bit. I think for a woman to be in WWIU's situation it is a bit more frustrating. First, her husband is a MAN, he of all people should understand. Plus, WWIU is a woman, so she has all those hormones that make you upset and cry to deal with, and when you have a situation, hormones just really seem to magnify it. I know that is a total sexist and stereotypical thing to say, but if I were in her shoes, that's how I'd feel.

[Ladyjane14]

Pink, they know. They may not get it, but they know. And, I would love for my wife to objectify me on occasion. I don't like to leave it up to the hot waitress to speak to me only with her eyes.

 

No baby.... they really don't. It's like a lightbulb going on floating over your head. It's a whole new concept in opposition to the one we've known from the cradle.

 

It's like describing a color to a blind person.

[ThumbingMyWay]

Two things that struck me here. When you are having a good spell, are you making sure to reinforce that behavior in her? Meaning, are you extra attentive, doing extra "I love you's," lots of nonsexual touching and cuddling? Are you sure that she sees the connection between her having more sex with you, and your being much more plugged into the relationship and happy?

 

YES I do. I do and I do....but when I get rejected the majority of the time...I lose motivation....and resentment sets in. Why should I have to keep trying....if all my efforts only yield a cup of sugar when it should yield the Sams Club 10 pound bag?

 

The fact is....we only have sex when she feels like....and I dont like that. I want her to now what you and LJ know about us. If she gave more...I will give more.

 

 

OK...you got me thinking....I will RE-intiate more affection in terms of what you said...I love yous, pat on the butt, compliments, etc....and I will see what happens in the next month. i will let you know the outcome..

[Pink_Tulip]

I wonder what she is doing to try and establish that connection. Other than the parkas with the cheeto crumbs, of course.

 

Ok, I know that wasn't meant to be funny, but I found it hysterical. See, you still have your sense of humor.

 

You know, you mentioned your wife had gained weight. It is very possible that your situation isn't going to fit in with the others here. It sounds like your wife is doing everything she can to push you away. And honestly, if your wife is having self esteem issues and such, nothing I say will make a difference. She is not going to be able to open herself up to you until she can accept herself. And I really have no advice off the top of my head on how to deal with that. But I can tell you I was there also, and had another 'aha' moment that snapped me out of it. But I will concede, it is much more difficult than the sex issue.

[Ladyjane14]

Hmm, I am going to have to disagree a bit. I think for a woman to be in WWIU's situation it is a bit more frustrating. First, her husband is a MAN, he of all people should understand. Plus, WWIU is a woman, so she has all those hormones that make you upset and cry to deal with, and when you have a situation, hormones just really seem to magnify it. I know that is a total sexist and stereotypical thing to say, but if I were in her shoes, that's how I'd feel.

 

There's also the modern media's conditioning that women must be attractive to have worth. If they can't feel sexy... they tend to lose self-esteem.

[MySugaree]

I returned to LS, after a long hiatus, and I'm glad I did. This particular Thread--especially the most recent posts by scrivdog, thumbingmyway,jamesM and the inestimable LJ have been intelligent, passionate and engaged.

 

Kudos to all of you, and Moose, too, who had the courage to tell us how he feels.

 

Great conversation.

[Pink_Tulip]

There's also the modern media's conditioning that women must be attractive to have worth. If they can't feel sexy... they tend to lose self-esteem.

 

As well as media's conditioning that all men are horn dogs that'll do anyone, anywhere, anytime. I can see that as a woman, if your man was not following you around with a constant erection, you could start to take it personally.