Author InaPanic Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 I have always attempted to be honest with what i am feeling & experiencing on this thread even tho i know it may bring me contempt or a few stones tossed my way. I think the only way i can get honest advice is to tell it like it is. In my last post that is what i was doing. I know how it makes me sound, bad & uncaring. But here is what i am thinking/feeling.... I feel like i have hurt him horribly as it is. I think if i am saying to him how much i love him & how much i want us to work out when inside my head & heart I am full of doubt & questions then that has the potential to hurt him even worse down the road. I promised him i would be honest about my feelings when i told him & he promised me the same. I am still in a place where i am questioning our relationship & why I did what i did. I am not sure if i have only be 'comfortable' all these years, if i did marry too young, etc. Do i think i am full of **** sometimes? Absolutely! But that doesn't stop me from thinking & feeling these things. I've honestly never been so confused in all my life. Now a little about my family & my history. I believe i have expressed some but not all of this before but here goes. My father was a complete womanizer & was married & divorced 3 times by the time he died. He was a total run-around & that fact was never hidden from me as a child. My mother had a long affair with a married man after she & dad split. I mean like maybe 8 years or more. This was also never hidden from me. From an early age i knew what she was doing, i knew it was socially inacceptible but she was doing it anyway. My sister married at 18, she had 2 affairs that i know of (one resulted in a pregnancy & an abortion - this happened when i was 18 & I knew all about it). She is now divorced from husband #3. I had been in a relationship with a married man before i married. It was an intense relationship where he actually did leave his wife but then left me to go back to her. Then i married my current H & for 18 years lead a very normal, moral life. Was this brewing inside of me all these years & maybe it took my weight loss to come out? Am i dwelling too much on these facts & now thinking it's in my blood & i'm just a bad seed? Idk. My next honesty comes in the fact that i have to admit that i did enjoy the feelings i got from the affair. Feelings i hadn't had in many years. I miss them so much that i really feel like THAT is what i miss more than the OM. I'm afraid now that i have experienced this that i will want it again. Hell, i want it now & that is why i still miss OM i suppose. So yes, to be boldly honest, i do have a fear that if i did this once i will be capable of doing it again. I know that's not what i SHOULD be feeling but i am trying to be very open with you all. Ok, please don't throw big stones at me, make it little ones Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 I promised him i would be honest about my feelings when i told him & he promised me the same. I am still in a place where i am questioning our relationship & why I did what i did. I am not sure if i have only be 'comfortable' all these years, if i did marry too young, etc. Do i think i am full of **** sometimes? Absolutely! But that doesn't stop me from thinking & feeling these things. I've honestly never been so confused in all my life. Then make sure you tell him this. Even if it hurts, he must hear the honesty. Was this brewing inside of me all these years & maybe it took my weight loss to come out? Am i dwelling too much on these facts & now thinking it's in my blood & i'm just a bad seed? Idk. Honey, this is why you have to find a therapist, even one that's cheap or maybe one that does pro-bono (or whatever it's called) you have issues from your childhood, parents and it very well could be affecting you now. Maybe the affair you had has NOW opened up all wounds. Before your affair you probably didn't have any of this stuff on your mind? Like the A triggered something in you? My next honesty comes in the fact that i have to admit that i did enjoy the feelings i got from the affair. Feelings i hadn't had in many years. I miss them so much that i really feel like THAT is what i miss more than the OM. I'm afraid now that i have experienced this that i will want it again. Hell, i want it now & that is why i still miss OM i suppose. So yes, to be boldly honest, i do have a fear that if i did this once i will be capable of doing it again. I know that's not what i SHOULD be feeling but i am trying to be very open with you all. Ofcourse you did, otherwise you wouldn't have had it. The feelings I'm sure made you feel special, desired, wanted and good! It's addictive and you're not getting that anymore, all that excitement and rush of intense feelings. You can't replace that with the love you have with your husband - That you won't get from him because sadly, those really good crush like feelings go away in time as the relationship goes on and people get married. It settles down into a slow burning love that lasts... I really believe once you let go of the OM completely and heal, those intense feelings that you felt will be forgotten and you won't 'feel' it and miss it like you do now. You do have the power to decide and the strength not to let an affair happen in the future. If you ever feel that way again, then you know to talk to your husband - 1) because if you cheat on him again, the marriage is for sure over. 2) You can't predict the future at all, I mean you never pictured yourself having an A to begin with, right? So just because you had one, doesn't mean you'll have another. You'll be smarter and wiser and also knowing FULL well what pain you caused your husband, I doubt you'll cheat on him again after seeing him the way he is now. You're being really hard on yourself, so lighten up abit. Maybe both you and your husband need to go out and have FUN! Giggle and laugh, just lighten up the mood at home. Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Did you tell your husband that you like/liked these feeling from the affair? Sounds like a generational curse to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author InaPanic Posted September 27, 2006 Author Share Posted September 27, 2006 Sounds like a generational curse to me. That's one of the things that concerns me Sup but i'm trying not to get so caught up in it anymore, in the fact that my family is all a bunch of cheaters i suppose, that i decide that's its predestined that i am to be one too. I mean, my father was an alcoholic & my brother was a drug addict. I have never had a taste for alcohol & never touched drugs. So people do not have to be what they are exposed to & that is what I am trying to convince myself of now. The hard part is that I DO still crave that excitement & those feelings. Maybe it's because i hadn't felt them in so long that i had forgotten what it felt like. I do feel like now that i have experienced them that there is an emptiness inside of me. It's not as intense as it was even a month ago so i hope given more time that i will forget it all over again. My husband & I are still taking it day by day. We talk some about the affair but he really hasn't asked many questions lately. He does still talk about splitting up but he did say he wanted to stay thru Christmas at least. I honestly don't think he wants to split but i could be wrong. He is still being extremely nice & kind to me which surprises me in a way but knowing the man he is & his character doesn't surprise me either. Worries about money & business are still on us. He seems to be able to put it aside better than i am. IT has only made me slip back a little into being sad more often. It also makes all the other problems seem more intense to me & i'm not sure why. At this point if we wanted to seperate/split we could not because there is no money for a second living quarters, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 I also worry if i end up single again, how will i ever tell a date or boyfriend why my first marriage broke up? If i am honest then they are going to think bad of me, if i am dishonest, well, there's a way to start a relationship. I guess you just be vague & don't go into details until you know if this person needs to know the facts. Ya know.. I read most all of this thread.. Took a few hours too.. Not trying to be offensive but I'd have never have guessed that you were somebody who doesn't like drama... The one thing that bothered me throughout reading this is that you never seem want to commit to anything... Everything ends in either what if or but.. I love my husband but I'm not sure... I want NC with the OM but let me IM him. I want my marriage to work, but what if I were single.. What if I have an affair again how can I control myself.. You have a whole pocket full of excuses.. Make up your mind already.. Put your energy into making what you want and then work for it. If you want to stay married then put the effort in there and stop being so wishy washy about it. Also stop thinking about what everyone else may think.. It's not important.. Link to post Share on other sites
Author InaPanic Posted September 30, 2006 Author Share Posted September 30, 2006 wow, 2long, that quote had me written all over it. The excitement totally took over my life and in place of my comfort & nesting natural tendencies. Also, i never felt like i was unhappy with my marriage before the affair. But i am now. And in a way i think i am still harbouring a secret & maybe that's why. It seems i feel further drawn away from him as each day passes. Especially in sexual ways. I wonder if that book, Anatomy of Love, would be a good read for me? I did go to Borders tonight & looked in the family/marriage section at books on infidelity. Most seemed to be geared toward the betrayed spouse rather than one on why & how to get past. There was one, & now i cannot remember the name of it, but it was about women who have affairs. I read the first few pages & it did hit home. Talked about interviewing women who had abusive husbands, uncaring husbands, husbands who don't meet their needs. But then it went on to say the author met a certain woman who had no issues with her husband. That he did everything she wanted & expected. I was like 'this is me!'. It stated that sometimes women have affairs for no other reason than boredom & the excitement. I wish now i had bought it but i had my kids with me (they were in the childrens section) & i knew they would want to know what i was buying. Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 You could go back and buy it on your own, if you want to. Just make sure your hubby KNOWS where you are going, if that's what he's having you to do. By the way hows everything going? Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 I was wondering also, the other bussiness that you 2 are considering closing, do you own the building, if so you could possibly rent, or lease it out to bring in revenue. Or you could close whatever of the bussinesses is doing worse, and rent out that building. Link to post Share on other sites
Author InaPanic Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share Posted October 1, 2006 Hey sup, thanks for being concerned. We don't own the building on either business. Actually this is the reason we may have to close down is because the mall got bought out & so far everyone's rent has been raised. We figure our time is coming. We are barely making it on what we pay now. So far so good tho, keeping fingers crossed. We are doing alright i suppose. Not really much to update. Today we went out to get halloween pumpkins with the kids. After we loaded them up he was driving & i could tell he was crying lightly. Later i asked if he was ok & he said it's hard on him when we do family stuff. And said this might be the last time we do this together. I told him no it wouldn't be & for him to try not to think that way. I know he's hurting so bad. The past couple days have been slightly better i suppose. We had company this weekend & had a good time but it was awkward because i know they know. Not much else to update. Wish there were, but thanks for your concern. Link to post Share on other sites
KnowHowLoveFeels Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Am i dwelling too much on these facts & now thinking it's in my blood & i'm just a bad seed? Idk. Ok, please don't throw big stones at me, make it little ones Hi! I will not cast any stones, I promise. Your family history really doesn't give you alot to learn from. Nonetheless, the feelings that one get from an affair is universal. I know exactly what kind of feelings you are talking about - I have felt them too. The key - if you want to save your marriage - is to focus on your children's future. Whatever love you have for the OM, give it to your H and children. That's what i'm doing. Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 So, what is your husband doing for counseling? I hate to say it IaP, your times almost up, UNLESS hubby gets counseling, finds this site, or whatever. He's STILL bottling it ALL up right now. Hmmmm..... Sounds like he still hasn't hit the anger stage. VERY strange............ Link to post Share on other sites
Author InaPanic Posted October 7, 2006 Author Share Posted October 7, 2006 Hi everyone...it's been a few days since i posted. It seems like i feel like a new person or maybe i should say more like the old person i was. I had been fighting these desires to perhaps be single again, that maybe i wasn't meant to be married now, etc. etc. For the past week I have been concentrating on my kids more & doing so much around the house. I have cleaned & straightened & decorated. Things i had no desire & couldn't force myself to do only a short month ago. I feel stronger than ever that i do want to make my marriage work & be the person i used to be. I know i cannot go back in time & i will never be the same but i'm finally seeing that i can be happy again. I am finally seeing that losing OM was the BEST thing that ever happened to me. Had i gone to be with him if he'd wanted me to, i would have been miserable, truly miserable. My husband still has moments. We have begun walking together nearly every night in our neighborhood. Sometimes it's wonderful & sometimes it's painful. It is the time he uses to talk to me about things. I have been as honest as i can with him about my feelings & any questions he has. Only once, this past week, did it sort of escalate. I have come to the firm conclusion (esp. after hearing Dr. Phil say it ) that he knows about the affair, he knows the important details of the affair but the gory details are of no use to him. This is what we had a debate about. I gave him the gory details but told him that i didn't think it was of any use in him healing. As Dr. Phil had said that the details only give the BS a much more vivid mental image of things & that it's not good for them. So, i know some will disagree but this is the conclusion i have come to. i will have to see if it works out. He doesn't really ask many questions anymore anyway. I have asked if he cries everyday & he says some days are worse than others but he does cry every day at least a little. I told him i hoped that would get better & easier with time. Last night he lit candles in the bedroom & we had sex. It was better & he really seemed to enjoy it...but i think more the intimacy more than the act. He said something to the affect that it's feeling more like normal or something. Something positive. And then this morning he gave me a hug & said 'i think we're going to be ok'. I don't know. He may decide he cannot live with it. He may not have hit his anger stage yet. He may be bottling it up inside. I hope none of these are true but i am trying to not deceive myself or him into false hopes. I know what may come & that i brought it all on. I called a therapist. actually an LPC (licensed professional counseler). Any opinions on these?? She was about 1/2 the price of the therapists i called. still not in our price range but i've decided i'll do it anyway & we'll come up with the $$. She wants to see us both together the first time & then me for 3 sessions & then both of us individually after that before we start MC. What do you think of this? Her reason for seeing us both the first time was because she said the spouse can sometimes feel like she has already taken sides or developed a relationship with the ohter spouse when there are many sessions before they are brought into the picture. I'm nervous about us going together. I know i will probably not be as open as i would be alone. Is this normal? Ok, enough. this is a huge long post. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 ... .... My friends keep advising me against it. They know what a great guy he is & they don't want to see my marriage ruined. Or him hurt. I know he loves me dearly, I'm afraid this will kill him. You husband deserves someone much better than you. And if you were not so selfish, if you really loved him you'd let him find that person. He may love you, but you sure don't love him. Why don't you spare him all the pain and just stab him in the heart with knife. Link to post Share on other sites
Author InaPanic Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 You husband deserves someone much better than you. And if you were not so selfish, if you really loved him you'd let him find that person. He may love you, but you sure don't love him. Why don't you spare him all the pain and just stab him in the heart with knife. Nice, thanks FiC's. Glad to know people can come here for support & advice. I hope someday you need it & you get just what you gave me Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I disagree with F*C. And yes, this Board is for advice and feedback not blatant disrespect. It does not mean that the behavior must be condoned. We who have followed your story from the beginning know that you are sorry for what you did. And now you have a painful road to follow. And from I still read, things are better but certainly not over. Hang in there. Your husband does deserve better, but so does my wife. Unfortunately, both have chosen whom to love and I for one am extremely thankful...most of the time. And I think she would say that I deserve better...and I would say that she is wrong. No, you have done very wrong. He didn't deserve it, and he has a choice. So far he has chosen you. Keep at it. I can only imagine what pain he is going through...and the pain you also must carry. Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Nice, thanks FiC's. Glad to know people can come here for support & advice. I hope someday you need it & you get just what you gave me IaP, remember what I told you before, about betrayed people coming on here and hurling BIG stones around, I have reason to believe this may be one of them. I know it is hard to feel for them concerning their betrayl, however, this expression may very well be a possible reflection of what your husband IS going through, although he hasn't expressed it much, or at all, yet. I have seen one of FiC's threads, or posts, I just thought you should know. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I'm glad to hear that things are on an upswing! That's really positive, for both of you. I'm nervous about us going together. I know i will probably not be as open as i would be alone. Is this normal? I think if you weren't nervous, I'd be wondering why. Don't worry, I'm sure the first session will go well and remember, the goal is to fix things so speak from your heart, even if it hurts you and your husband...The MC will help guide you both through this, so have faith in that. Link to post Share on other sites
Author InaPanic Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 well, tomorrow both my husband & I go for our first meeting with the counselor. I've gone from flat out dreading it to now feeling something like excitement. I mean, i guess you can't be excited about having to do somthing like this, i wish we never needed a reason to go in the first place. But i feel like it's a positive step, especially on my part to my h, to do this. My lack of getting the ball rolling said to him i didn't want help. It's really just been hard for me to admit i need help. Like i'm a crazy person or something. So tomorrow we both see the counselor & then i start IC for a few visits before he starts IC. I hope it helps us & doesn't hurt us. He's been in such good spirits the past week or so i don't want to say anything during the therapy that will bring him down. I can't imagine being completely honest with the counselor until i am one on one with her. Maybe once we start the MC phase i will be able to be more open in front of him. If she were to ask me in front of him 'do you ever think about the OM' i would have to lie & say no because if i said, yeah occasionally i do, it would hurt him so bad. Well, wish us luck because i hope this is a step in the right direction. Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 NO, DON'T LIE! That would just set everything back, YOU have to come clean with everything the counselor asks, even in front of your husband. Lying more now will prevent both of your healing and drag this on much longer! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 If she were to ask me in front of him 'do you ever think about the OM' i would have to lie & say no because if i said, yeah occasionally i do, it would hurt him so bad. When a BS discovers they have been lied to about anything affair related after dday, it can undo everything that you have done to make things better since then. If you want to save your marriage you really should tell the truth, no matter how unpleasant. For many continued lying makes them walk away from the M, not the betrayal itself. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I would like to comment on two things I noticed in this thread. First of all, I would like to point out that it appears that everyone that posted comments about 'having an affair', whether it be the cheater or the cheated upon that everyone has shown a great level of sincerity and have not been mean or cruel with words and have tried their best to examine the 'big picture' - that is a good thing. Second, those who cheated on others appear to truly understand why they did so in a fair way. It is nice to see that when someone has an affair, that they don't blame the other for their actions. See, in life there will always be ups and downs, but, the decision to have an affair rests soley with the person that does so. There is no-one forcing them to do this - it is/was their decision, no-one elses. I truly believe that people have affairs for many valid reasons but the important lesson learned is that the person 'discover' the truth within themself as to why they did so. If that person examines every part of the picture and 'sees' things in themself that is honest and true - then the ability to fogive yourself is half done. Yes, its hard admitting that you are 'not the person you thought you were' but that is part of the battle. "The issue isn't whether you'll hurt your H by telling him. The fact is that you HAVE hurt him, by having the affair. And you're continuing 2 hurt him by keeping secrets from him." This comment is bang on. The only thing I would add is the person you are hurting the most by not fully disclosing is yourself. "Telling him removes some guilt from me" I believe that 'telling someone about an affair' isn't about removing guilt because it is guilt that is keeping someone from telling the truth. I believe that being honest actually builds up your respect and self-esteem. Think about this, if you had an affair, whether it is over or continues, and you told your husband, or boyfriend, or wife, or girlfriend not just about it, but with who, why, how, etc. the strength you get from 'stopping living a lie' is massive and actually helps you make better decisions in the future. If someone i was with had an affair, I would expect them to simply be honest with me. That would be healing, not hurting. When I was 19, the girl I was dating [1 1/2 years] had a 'fling' [one-nite stand - 6 months in] with someone and she didn't tell me until 3 months afterwards. And the day she did that, she grew up and took responsibility for her actions. At first she tried to 'downplay' what she had done until she realized thru us talking that its never about the 'act', its about the intension - that's a leap from highschool thinking to adult reasoning and helped her understand the 'value' of relationships and partners. Now, we spilt up and never dated again but we are still friends today and care about each other because what happened all those years ago - made us 'both grow up' - and that was special. Link to post Share on other sites
shakenandstirred Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 IAP, I posted as a guest way back in the beginning, telling you to be honest with your husband. You should be, to the very end. I applaud your courage in handling this the way you have. I know it has not been easy, but I really admire your willingness to repair the damage done. I wish you nothing but good wishes in the future. Just be what you promised your husband you would be in your marriage vows. He loves you, you love him. Good luck in making it work. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 NO, DON'T LIE! That would just set everything back, YOU have to come clean with everything the counselor asks, even in front of your husband. Lying more now will prevent both of your healing and drag this on much longer! You've gone this far, so don't stop. You tell your husband all your fears, even the ones that you're scared to tell him things because you don't wanna hurt him anymore than he is now. He'll atleast be hurt, but see that you are being honest and that is what is going to gain his trust and faith back... I do feel for you and all that you're going through, you've owned up to all of it...So, keep being strong and speak from your heart, no matter what. Link to post Share on other sites
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Nice, thanks FiC's. Glad to know people can come here for support & advice. I hope someday you need it & you get just what you gave me Well since I won't cheat on my wife... I doubt I'll be in your shoes. That said I was trying to give you the support and advice I could. And to JamesM I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. It was my honest feelings about things like this. I haven't read your whole thread, - yet - haven't had the time... geez... so I don't know the whole details of the sad affair nor unraveled who all the cheaters were in your family tree. (It's taken hours to get up to page 12 out of 28.... with skimming a few of the later pages.) However I think you said it best yourself... I broke NC with OM. In no way resuming any affair but I did talk to him. Yes, I hate myself. Yes, I feel incredibly weak & f**ked up & stupid. I feel for my H too. He's too good of a guy to have had this done to him. I have a lump in my throat right now thinking of what i have done to him & how i have changed him. i don't deserve him at all. And he doesn't deserve someone like me.I agree totally. He's too good a guy for you. But wait, he cheated on his first wife. OK, he's not all that pure. But he sure didn't deserve this. If he does take you back you better worship the ground he walks on - every single day. But you have done something which is going to torment your husband until he dies. At least it would me. How does he get images out of his head? Forget the pink elephant. Every time there is a hickup in your relationship how does it not come back to this? I know for me, if my wife cheated on me, the emotional impact would be the same as rape. Worse in fact. With rape, I'd have been forced. It was beyond my control. What you did was similarly beyond your husband's control, but worse because he'll blame himself for what happened. And unlike rape what you did was done by someone he trusted and loved. That makes it all the worse. He wasn't good enough. Every time you have sex he'll wonder was he good enough this time. Don't be surprised if he can't get it up. Maybe years from now. Maybe tomorrow. For me, stabbing me in the heart would be far kinder than having my wife cheat on me. And I mean that literally. I don't know InaPanic. IMO, you are trying to fix something that just isn't fixable. Maybe you can survive it, but you can't fix it. It's like someone that has third degree burns over most of their body. They may live, but they won't ever be the same. I know for me the ONLY way I would even consider staying with my wife if she had an affair is if I had a similar affair (actually several similar affairs, don't get even, get ahead). I wouldn't even consider it if she felt that was unfair or was a deal breaker. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. You said your OM was 26, your H 47. I'm sure H would appreciate the charms of a 26 OW, and for all the same reasons you did with the OM. Doesn't he deserve that? For all the pain you put him through? And no, two "wrongs" won't make it right. Nothing will make it right. But it might dull his pain a little. But maybe no 26 year old woman would want your man. Maybe he's stuck with you. Maybe you are the best he can do. See those are all things would run through my mind. My wife can get a 26 year old stud. Gee, can I get a 26 year old hottie? If she were to ask me in front of him 'do you ever think about the OM' i would have to lie & say no because if i said, yeah occasionally i do, it would hurt him so bad.sigh.... still trying to protect him from you and your misdeed? Come on, let him go. Be fair to him. You owe him that much. You've reduced the man to crying all the time. How much more of his pride do you want to take? ... We who have followed your story from the beginning know that you are sorry for what you did.Being sorry doesn't fix it. I can only imagine what pain he is going through...and the pain you also must carry.Exactly why keep putting each other through that pain? It's like hitting the burn victim with a blow torch, over and over and over... I have some other comments on the thread... but I'm not posting them for now... maybe tomorrow if I can finish the whole thing thru page 28. Or maybe not. Anyway good luck. I hope you can work it out. But at best you and Mr. H are in for a whole lot of pain. Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 sigh.... still trying to protect him from you and your misdeed? Come on, let him go. Be fair to him. You owe him that much. You've reduced the man to crying all the time. How much more of his pride do you want to take? So far, this is the ONLY statement I agree with, from this poster, IaP. However, FiC, what's YOUR story, were you betrayed in another relationship, by a parent? Was someone close to you betrayed? Please post your own Thread on your subject. Somehow, these kinds of post/Threads seem to strike a nerve with you, that IS apparent. Link to post Share on other sites
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