Are these early red flags, or am I overthinking isolated incidents in a relationship?

[Elune]

Hello everyone.

My boyfriend and I have been in a relationship for five months and we spend lots of time together. He is over 35 and I’m 28. We recently had an argument because I felt that some of my needs weren’t being met. I may have handled the original conversation poorly and probably overreacted to some extent, but I don’t remember saying anything that would have crossed the line.

My partner normally seems like a kind, empathetic, emotionally deep person. He is interested in psychology, is emotionally expressive, and has no problem showing tears or talking openly about his feelings. He has told me that I’m his soulmate, his best friend, and the love of his life and and we have a lot of fun together when we’re not in conflict. That’s part of why his behavior during conflict confuses me so much.

The next morning, however, he sent me a long series of messages saying that my behavior was “extremely immature,” “15-year-old bullshit drama,” “f***ing dumb,” and “pointless drama.” He said he has “zero patience for pointless drama,” that “I stressed him out and ruined the evening”, that he won’t “sugarcoat things when people are being unreasonable,”. He also made a comment that the longer I waited to “get off the wrong train,” the more expensive the return trip would be.

There has also been another incident that makes me wonder if there is a pattern. During a separate, very minor disagreement, he suddenly said, “Why are women so stupid?” It wasn’t a major argument, and the comment caught me off guard.

I understand that he was frustrated, and I’m not asking whether I was right or wrong about the original issue. I’m trying to understand something else:

Is this just blunt communication from a frustrated but otherwise emotionally sensitive partner, or is there something unhealthy or emotionally abusive about the way he speaks and acts during conflict?

I’m feeling confused because most of the time, things between us are genuinely beautiful. He is affectionate and emotionally open, and I feel very close to him. That’s why I’m having a hard time understanding how to interpret these incidents. I don’t know whether I’m seeing a concerning pattern or whether these are isolated moments of someone who becomes harsh and reactive when he is angry.

Edited Saturday at 11:56 PM by Elune

[ExpatInItaly]

5 hours ago, Elune said:

or is there something unhealthy or emotionally abusive about the way he speaks and acts during conflict?

It is very concerning that you aren't already sure about this. 

He is being emotionally and verablly abusive, yes. His comments are rude, disrespectful and incredibly condesending. It tells you everything you need to know about how he really sees you and how little he values your feelings. His comment about women is disgusting as well. 

5 hours ago, Elune said:

most of the time, things between us are genuinely beautiful. He is affectionate and emotionally open,

Right - when things are going his way and you keep your mouth shut about any concerns you have. You've seen what happens when conflict arises though. Abusers aren't abusve every moment of the day. You start noticing it in spurts, generally, which is what's happening now. These are serious red flags and they are very likely to get worse. I personally would have ended it with him by now. I don't involve myself with me who show such utter contempt and disregard not only for me, but for women in general. 

5 hours ago, Elune said:

I felt that some of my needs weren’t being met. I may have handled the original conversation poorly and probably overreacted to some extent

But what happened here? If this relationship is as beautiful as you describe, what needs aren't being met? How did you handle it?

[Elune]

12 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

It is very concerning that you aren't already sure about this. 

I understand why you say that. The reason I’m not already sure is that this has only happened twice, while most of the time he is very gentle, sensitive, and seems genuinely empathetic.

He is also extremely romantic. He plays guitar and wrote a song for me, and I could probably make an entire book out of his poetic declarations of love. When he talks about relationships in general, he sounds very reasonable and seems to understand, at least verbally, what healthy relationships should look like. He has read a lot about psychology and is interested in self-development topics such as Buddhism and meditation. We can talk for hours about deep subjects, and we understand each other very well.

He has also mentioned that he struggles with depression at times. That has never been something that pushed me away, because I have been through depression myself. But he also has mentioned me that he has a history of self-harm and substance use when he was 20 years old. However, all of this was a long time ago. Since then, he has made a lot of changes in his life and has clearly put a great deal of effort into working on himself. He quit drugs and smoking, started exercising regularly, reads extensively about psychology and self-development, and pays close attention to his diet. I met his story with understanding and compassion, and I was genuinely happy for him and proud of how far he had come.

So, given all of that, I think that’s exactly why these two incidents have made me feel so confused. Part of me, the part that is in love with him, really wants to write them off as isolated incidents because there have only been two over several months. .

But another part of me found the contrast genuinely frightening. When he sent that long series of messages, I froze. I was shocked and could only respond very briefly. I knew that my behavior the previous evening hadn’t been ideal and that perhaps I had behaved somewhat “like a teenager,” as he put it, but I absolutely did not expect that kind of reaction from him. 

12 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

But what happened here? If this relationship is as beautiful as you describe, what needs aren't being met? How did you handle it?

The original disagreement was actually about something quite small. I felt hurt because, during a visit, I was expecting a certain kind of emotional reassurance from him and didn’t get it when I expected it. I interpreted it more personally than I probably should have and became upset. I don’t think I handled it perfectly. I brought it up emotionally and probably gave the situation more weight than it deserved. 

Edited Sunday at 05:51 PM by Elune

[ExpatInItaly]

I don't doubt he has his positive qualities. Even the worst among us usually do. 

I am not suggesting he is the worst of the worst, to be clear. But you have only been dating 5 months. That is still the learning phase, when we evaluate if someone is reallty a good match for us as we get to truly know them. You are seeing a side of him he has kept concealed until now. I can almsot guarantee there is more to come.

34 minutes ago, Elune said:

I felt hurt because, during a visit, I was expecting a certain kind of emotional reassurance from him and didn’t get it when I expected it

What did not reassure you about? It's hard to frame his mindset and comments without more context. 

35 minutes ago, Elune said:

I brought it up emotionally

Meaning what, precisely? Were you crying? Yelling? 

[Elune]

36 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I can almsot guarantee there is more to come.

Meaning I'll be hearing "Why are women so stupid" and "Your behaviour is stupid bullshit drama, you're immature and your needs are unhealthy" more often?...

 

44 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

What did not reassure you about? It's hard to frame his mindset and comments without more context. 

We are normally very open about our feelings and say sweet things to each other every day. That day, though, he seemed to be in a somewhat cold or distant mood, and by the end of the evening I started feeling hurt because I felt like he hadn’t really noticed me or paid much attention to me.

I wasn’t crying or yelling, but I was visibly upset and, looking back, probably acted somewhat capriciously. During the evening, he actually seemed understanding about why I was upset, and the issue was almost resolved. We even agreed to see each other the next day.

In the middle of the night, however, he sent me a message: "I don't think I want to visit after all. This whole thing upset me and I don’t think I actually did anything wrong. It’s trouble for us both for no reason…it reminds me of high school drama. And it's a really immature thing to get upset about. An entire evening wasted which could have been full of laughter and joy and love. I think your time would be better spent looking at the things you appreciate and are thankful for between us instead of hunting for things to be upset about. I’m going to chill out and do some things that make me feel relaxed and happy when I wake up and I wish we were in a place to do that together but I can’t trust your moods right now. I really hope when I check for messages that the reasonable side of you will be visiting us…I miss her and I miss you " - I didn’t respond because, although the message wasn’t overtly aggressive in tone, something about it felt manipulative to me.

Next morning when he saw that I hadn’t replied, he immediately sent another series of messages, starting with: "You're gonna be needing a very long olive branch today. If you take the wrong train somewhere....the longer you wait to get off the more expensive the return trip will be." I told him not to threaten me... Instead, he continued: "That's reality. It all was extremely immature, not just a little immature, not even a medium amount of immature, that's like 15 year old bullshit drama, the things teenagers argue about, and to stress me out with it, and ruin our evening together is ridiculous. if that is your standard in relationships then the rest is at the same ridiculous standards. It's fine you felt some distress about it, i feel distress about irrational things as well, but to cause drama for us is stupid. Your needs are not healthy if they require IMMIDIATE ATTENTION to you 4567345629356267935 times a day. If the mood happens to be right on any given day...and there is lots of loving things between us then thats wonderful and we should enjoy it, but to REQUIRE that be the standard at all times or there is a crisis is f***ing dumb. I actually can't believe we are having to discuss this at all...it's very obvious. You took a perfectly good day and pushed it into a struggle for nothing. And the more time that goes on where you dont understand this, the more irritated im getting..." and so on.

I kept my replies short and agreed that he didn't do anything wrong. His descriptions of what happened don’t match my memory of the situation, though. He repeatedly talks as though I demanded constant attention or turned the situation into some kind of crisis. That isn’t how I remember it at all. And we even ended the evening on a nice note.

I hope this gives a clearer picture.

[lemonicetea]

Everyone is on their best behavior when you first meet them. Their true colors start to show later. It’s only going to be downhill from here, trust me.  I know I wouldn’t want to date someone who was talking to me like this and was making misogynistic comments like that. Since this is a pretty recent relationship, I would just call it off and move on. 

[Elune]

52 minutes ago, lemonicetea said:

Everyone is on their best behavior when you first meet them. Their true colors start to show later. It’s only going to be downhill from here, trust me.  I know I wouldn’t want to date someone who was talking to me like this and was making misogynistic comments like that. Since this is a pretty recent relationship, I would just call it off and move on.

Thank you for your reply. Wouldn’t you consider the possibility that this behavior was an exception, given how he normally is? Honestly, I'm really in love with this guy  

Edited Sunday at 11:02 PM by Elune

[Alpacalia]

@OP, I don't think this is just blunt communication. Bluntness is "I'm frustrated and I think you overreacted." What he sent was a string of insults, "15-year-old bullshit drama," "f***ing dumb," aimed at you as a person, not at the issue. And you didn't cross any line, so you don't need to defend how you raised it.

The comment that worries me most is "Why are women so stupid?" It came out of a minor disagreement, which suggests it's not only anger talking. People tend to say what they already think when they're irritated. It also fits with the insults the next morning, because both treat you as less capable than him.

Then there's the train line. Saying the longer you wait to "get off the wrong train," the more expensive the return trip gets, is a warning about what staying will cost you. That's a threat dressed up as advice. He also sent it the next morning, in writing, after time to cool off, so it can't be explained as something said in the heat of the moment.

I can't tell you whether he's emotionally abusive from a few incidents and one side of the story, and I wouldn't label him from here. But contempt, insults, a sexist remark and a veiled threat in five months is a pattern worth taking seriously. The affection and the tears don't cancel it out.

[Elune]

48 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Then there's the train line. Saying the longer you wait to "get off the wrong train," the more expensive the return trip gets, is a warning about what staying will cost you. That's a threat dressed up as advice. He also sent it the next morning, in writing, after time to cool off, so it can't be explained as something said in the heat of the moment.

You’re right. I actually noticed the train line earlier in his message, although at that point it was phrased much more softly: “I’m going to chill out and do some things that make me feel relaxed and happy when I wake up and I wish we were in a place to do that together but I can’t trust your moods right now. I really hope when I check for messages that the reasonable side of you will be visiting us… I miss her and I miss you.”

That was actually one of the reasons I didn’t reply to that late-night message. To me, it felt like: “Be the way I want you to be, or I’ll withdraw my affection.” I’m not saying that was necessarily his conscious intention, but that is how the message came across to me. 

48 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

It also fits with the insults the next morning, because both treat you as less capable than him.

That’s... an interesting observation. I honestly hadn’t thought about it that way  But....

................ There is one last piece of information I want to share that I came across one day. It isn’t about me, but about his previous relationship.

I once came across an old stream of a game he was playing, possibly with some friends, I’m not entirely sure and it was recorded around 18 months ago. At the time, his ex and he were still together, and their child was about two years old. The boy was crying, and his ex asked him for help. He said, “I’m coming, hold on,” but before he went to them, he added: “He drives me nuts when he doesn’t s*** (poop)... actually, it’s the pair of them, really. She doesn’t f***ing know how to deal with it.” 

When I put all these little pieces together, I’m starting to feel quite uncomfortable. It feels like I’m gradually seeing something about him that I really don’t want to see.

What makes this especially difficult for me is that he is SO good at talking about relationships. He can articulate healthy relationship principles incredibly well, and he seems to understand them. Sometimes he sounds like exactly the kind of person who would know how to handle difficult emotions with empathy and care.

And then I come across these moments, and I struggle to reconcile them with the person I know. It’s becoming difficult to understand how these can be the same person.

Edited yesterday at 12:33 AM by Elune

[Gebidozo]

A man who swears at you and makes misogynistic comments isn’t mature enough to be in a romantic relationship.

I agree with what others have said in this thread, so there isn’t much to add. Just wanted to point out that you appear to grant too much significance to his romantic gestures. Those are very easy to do and mean very little unless they are a bonus to solid core behavior.

In fact, many abusers feel the need to “compensate” for their aggressiveness with those romantic gestures. It could even be a subconscious effort to hide abusive traits under their guise. 

[Alpacalia]

30 minutes ago, Elune said:

You’re right. I actually noticed the train line earlier in his message, although at that point it was phrased much more softly: “I’m going to chill out and do some things that make me feel relaxed and happy when I wake up and I wish we were in a place to do that together but I can’t trust your moods right now. I really hope when I check for messages that the reasonable side of you will be visiting us… I miss her and I miss you.”

That was actually one of the reasons I didn’t reply to that late-night message. To me, it felt like: “Be the way I want you to be, or I’ll withdraw my affection.” I’m not saying that was necessarily his conscious intention, but that is how the message came across to me. 

That’s... an interesting observation. I honestly hadn’t thought about it that way  But....

................ There is one last piece of information I want to share that I came across one day. It isn’t about me, but about his previous relationship.

WriteLove Letters

 

I once came across an old stream of a game he was playing, possibly with some friends, I’m not entirely sure and it was recorded around 18 months ago. At the time, his ex and he were still together, and their child was about two years old. The boy was crying, and his ex asked him for help. He said, “I’m coming, hold on,” but before he went to them, he added: “He drives me nuts when he doesn’t s*** (poop)... actually, it’s the pair of them, really. She doesn’t f***ing know how to deal with it.” 

When I put all these little pieces together, I’m starting to feel quite uncomfortable. It feels like I’m gradually seeing something about him that I really don’t want to see.

What makes this especially difficult for me is that he is SO good at talking about relationships. He can articulate healthy relationship principles incredibly well, and he seems to understand them. Sometimes he sounds like exactly the kind of person who would know how to handle difficult emotions with empathy and care.

And then I come across these moments, and I struggle to reconcile them with the person I know. It’s becoming difficult to understand how these can be the same person.

There's a great song by Taylor Swift that explains these toxic relationships "Patient Zero."

@Elune, since you've found that stream of his ex, I'd listen to Taylor Swift's "Patient Zero." It's about the new girlfriend of an ex contacting you because she has started seeing the same troubling behaviour you experienced. The narrator calls herself "patient zero" because she was there first and can warn others of the signs. You don't need to be a fan to see why it fits. 

You're now in the position of the second woman. You came across that clip of him with his ex and their toddler, and what stood out to me is where the blame went. The ex "doesn't know how to deal with it." You "need" too much attention and have "unhealthy needs." Two different women, and the problem is always something wrong with her, never with how he reacts. One clip and one fight don't prove a pattern, but you noticed this yourself, and I think you should trust that.

The song also treats the relationship like an illness, and the lyrics describe how, once the toxins take hold, you'd rather die than let go. That's close to what you said about being really in love with him. Feeling that strongly doesn't mean he's good for you. It's part of why it's so hard to see him clearly. 

I'm not saying he's the man in the song, and I only know him through your posts. But if a woman who dated him before you were told about the "wrong train" message and the "women are stupid" comment, I don't think she'd be surprised. That's worth thinking about.

 

[lemonicetea]

2 hours ago, Elune said:

Thank you for your reply. Wouldn’t you consider the possibility that this behavior was an exception, given how he normally is? Honestly, I'm really in love with this guy  

I suppose anything is possible but I wouldn’t. Abusers aren’t abusive 24/7 and a lot of times they use romantic gestures to make up for their bad behavior. Plus you’ve only known him for five months, so how in love can you be? 

Edited yesterday at 01:53 AM by lemonicetea

[ShyViolet]

There's no way I would stay with someone who speaks to me this way.  I don't care if it was just a few isolated incidents and things have been great most of the time.  You've only been dating him 5 months, that's a very short time and people are on their best behavior in the early stages of a relationship.  There is another side to him, a dark and abusive side, that is starting to come out now.  You need to be very careful.

The way he spoke to you in those longer text messages was completely abusive, disrespectful, belittling, condescending, not to mention gaslighting.  It will almost certainly happen again, and more often as time goes on.  You shouldn't tolerate this.  I hope you end this now, but if you do decide to stay, I urge you to dump him immediately if he ever does this again.

[ExpatInItaly]

7 hours ago, Elune said:

Meaning I'll be hearing "Why are women so stupid" and "Your behaviour is stupid bullshit drama, you're immature and your needs are unhealthy" more often?...

Yes, exactly - and probably worse. For example: 

7 hours ago, Elune said:

ause drama for us is stupid. Your needs are not healthy if they require IMMIDIATE ATTENTION to you 4567345629356267935 times a day. If the mood happens to be right on any given day...and there is lots of loving things between us then thats wonderful and we should enjoy it, but to REQUIRE that be the standard at all times or there is a crisis is f***ing dumb

Yikes. Girl - YIKES. 

3 hours ago, Elune said:

he is SO good at talking about relationships. He can articulate healthy relationship principles incredibly well, and he seems to understand them.

OP, he has just showed you he talks the talk, but does not walk the walk. And what he wrote to you when he got upset is not "good" at talking about relaitonships. He turned into a jerk as soon as it wasn't just hypothetical talks about relationships. Pay attention to how he has now characterized you and your needs. He stomped all over that.

4 hours ago, Elune said:

Honestly, I'm really in love with this guy

It sounds like you fell in love with the love-bombing. The more you write, the clearer it is how strongly this guy came on - playing songs, sweet words all the time, and so on. Look how you reacted when he didn't say sweet things for one day - that tells me you are riding too high on the sparks and are going to have a hard time dealing with the reality of who he actually is. While all that flattery feels very good, it is not sustainable for months and months and needs to be taken with the perspective that a relationship needs more real substance than fluffy words.  It sounds like you both got carried away with the honeymoon and it's now clouding your judgement because you became hooked on it. Thus, seeing glimpses now of how this man truly operates is very destasbilizing. It doens't align with the guy you thought you knew. But make no mistakes, this is also very much part of who he is. 

3 hours ago, Elune said:

To me, it felt like: “Be the way I want you to be, or I’ll withdraw my affection.” I’m not saying that was necessarily his conscious intention

Oh, I think that was very much his intention. To warn you to behave. 

This would have disgusted me to the point of dumping him. He's not a great guy, OP. 

[Elune]

21 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

that tells me you are riding too high on the sparks and are going to have a hard time dealing with the reality of who he actually isю  It sounds like you both got carried away with the honeymoon and it's now clouding your judgement because you became hooked on it

This is very true.

21 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

It sounds like you fell in love with the love-bombing.

I just read up on this term. Apparently, it’s somehow connected to narcissists and people with avoidant attachment.

21 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Oh, I think that was very much his intention. To warn you to behave. 

You think it was conscious?...

Edited 3 hours ago by Elune

[Elune]

22 hours ago, ShyViolet said:

completely abusive, disrespectful, belittling, condescending, not to mention gaslighting.  It will almost certainly happen again, and more often as time goes on.  You shouldn't tolerate this.  I hope you end this now, but if you do decide to stay, I urge you to dump him immediately if he ever does this again.

Thank you. It’s scary to think that those messages might actually have been examples of those things. I don’t think I recognized the behavior myself at the time, but I’ve definitely heard those terms before in pop psychology.

[Elune]

21 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

he has just showed you he talks the talk, but does not walk the walk

This part is especially hard for me to understand. When I say something about what I believe or how I think people should treat each other, I genuinely mean it, and I expect my behavior to reflect those beliefs. I suppose I naively assumed that this was how everyone was, that if someone speaks so convincingly about healthy relationships, they must actually try to live by those principles too. Otherwise, what’s the point of talking about them in the first place?

[ExpatInItaly]

3 hours ago, Elune said:

You think it was conscious?...

There's no doubt in my mind. 

3 hours ago, Elune said:

Otherwise, what’s the point of talking about them in the first place?

Some people love thinking they sound smart or knowledgable. Some simply love the sound of their own voices. Some are indirectly trying to tell you how you should behave. Don't hang so muh weight on words when actions don't support it. 

3 hours ago, Elune said:

When I say something about what I believe or how I think people should treat each other, I genuinely mean it, and I expect my behavior to reflect those beliefs. I suppose I naively assumed that this was how everyone was

Let this be an important lesson - we simply cannot apply our own thoughts and mentality to everyone else. This man clearly does not operate or think the way you do. 

3 hours ago, Elune said:

I just read up on this term. Apparently, it’s somehow connected to narcissists and people with avoidant attachment.

Eh, sometimes. Try not to get hung up on pop psychology though. The most important take-away is that this guy is showing you serious red flags and is not who you thought he was.