princessaurora Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 10 hours ago, Gebidozo said: Personally, I could never understand this weird insistence that oral sex is “not really sex”, or a less intimate act than PIV sex. Of course it is sex, and of course it is very intimate, in a different way than PIV intercourse perhaps, but extremely intimate nevertheless. I know people who feel that oral sex is MORE intimate than PIV sex. In any case, it’s complete and full cheating, no better and no worse than PIV cheating. I tend to agree that passionate kissing under those circumstances is cheating, too. Yes, I know people who think oral sex is more intimate, but they're much younger than me. I am from Generation X.and grew up in New Orleans. I was also a Catholic schoolgirl, so we had it instilled in us to remain virgins till marriage. But, oral was pretty typical for us to partake in. We considered it the loophole to being sexual, but still maintaining our virginity. Once you broke the cardinal rule and were no longer a virgin, the sexual acts still seemed to follow in order with oral preceding intercourse and generally did not occur the same night unless you were already having sex with the person. So, some people who are in 40-50 range especially, may have an easier time trying to process an affair if it didn't escalate to actual intercourse. Now just to be clear, I am not saying that it would not still be absolutely devastating , because it would, and total grounds for divorce, but when a partner has a complete physical union with someone outside the marriage, that is often the thing that truly brings them to their knees. Apparently. alot of people share this view which is why the wayward spouse will generally only admit to intercourse as a last resort. But I don't know what would be the most devastating to the OP. Maybe it's making out, maybe it's oral, maybe it's intercourse. It is a very subjective perspective and I am simply sharing my reasons for believing it is possible they did not have full blown intercourse. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
princessaurora Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 3 hours ago, happyhorizons said: I think that most interpersonal acts of affection would be crossing the LINE....it's cheating pure and simple I agree, and that includes kissing, other than a peck on the cheek. Seeking out someone other than your spouse for any kind of physical pleasure, is absolutely cheating. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daveamec Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 hour ago, princessaurora said: I agree, and that includes kissing, other than a peck on the cheek. Seeking out someone other than your spouse for any kind of physical pleasure, is absolutely cheating. I believe Oral is penetration for sure. The fact that no pregnancy would happen, is not something we can minimize the action and its consequences . Penetration happens but in other format and for me as a male, it would hurt even more by seeing that. I experienced that and this is my feeling. It may be different from women' perspective. When my wife cheated on me, the part of oral and their action was more hurtful and memorable than actual intercourse. One thing I have not been able to take off my mind is actually the oral and not the intercourse. That tells me the reality and its damage how that section would sit into memory than other stuff. Buy why?? That is why coming to OP's topic, I believe what she did is evern more damageable than actual intercourse if it has happened or not !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wiseman2 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) daveamec, betrayal is betrayal. Does splitting hairs about what went to where really matter at this point? Why bother feeding more hurt or less hurt if it was fellatio, anal or vaginal? It's all physical cheating. Why try to redefine what physical cheating is? Are you divorcing? in your own thread , you claim you have all sorts of spyware evidence with a man going to your place, but you don't want a divorce? Edited March 13 by Wiseman2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gebidozo Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 6 hours ago, daveamec said: I believe Oral is penetration for sure. The fact that no pregnancy would happen, is not something we can minimize the action and its consequences . Penetration happens but in other format and for me as a male, it would hurt even more by seeing that. I experienced that and this is my feeling. It may be different from women' perspective. When my wife cheated on me, the part of oral and their action was more hurtful and memorable than actual intercourse. One thing I have not been able to take off my mind is actually the oral and not the intercourse. That tells me the reality and its damage how that section would sit into memory than other stuff. Buy why?? That is why coming to OP's topic, I believe what she did is evern more damageable than actual intercourse if it has happened or not !! I understand your feelings. Oral sex is very intimate. And it really doesn’t matter at all whether someone cheated with PIV intercourse, oral intercourse, anal intercourse, handjob, fingering, mutual masturbation, making out, or even just passionate kissing. Those are all sexual acts, and in that context all of them constitute cheating. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gebidozo Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 6 hours ago, happyhorizons said: I think that most interpersonal acts of affection would be crossing the LINE....it's cheating pure and simple Absolutely. It’s really easy to test, too. You only need to ask yourself two questions, “Would I be ok if my SO does that?”, and “Would I do that with a relative or a friend?”. If both answers are “no”, then, whatever “that” is, it’s cheating. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gebidozo Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 3 hours ago, princessaurora said: Yes, I know people who think oral sex is more intimate, but they're much younger than me. I am from Generation X.and grew up in New Orleans. I was also a Catholic schoolgirl, so we had it instilled in us to remain virgins till marriage. But, oral was pretty typical for us to partake in. We considered it the loophole to being sexual, but still maintaining our virginity. Once you broke the cardinal rule and were no longer a virgin, the sexual acts still seemed to follow in order with oral preceding intercourse and generally did not occur the same night unless you were already having sex with the person. So, some people who are in 40-50 range especially, may have an easier time trying to process an affair if it didn't escalate to actual intercourse. Now just to be clear, I am not saying that it would not still be absolutely devastating , because it would, and total grounds for divorce, but when a partner has a complete physical union with someone outside the marriage, that is often the thing that truly brings them to their knees. Apparently. alot of people share this view which is why the wayward spouse will generally only admit to intercourse as a last resort. But I don't know what would be the most devastating to the OP. Maybe it's making out, maybe it's oral, maybe it's intercourse. It is a very subjective perspective and I am simply sharing my reasons for believing it is possible they did not have full blown intercourse. I’m Catholic too, but I really loathe this hypocritical approach to sex. I don’t mean you, of course, but the false indoctrination that “virginity” only constitutes vaginal virginity, and that oral sex is somehow “less of a sin” than vaginal sex. The ironic thing is that the actual Catholic doctrine is just the opposite. PIV sex is ok within context of marriage, but oral sex is only ok as foreplay, when being followed by PIV intercourse. The problem is not whether we agree with this particular doctrine or not, but that the supposed “mildness” of oral sex is not what the Catholic Church teaches at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daveamec Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 18 hours ago, Gebidozo said: I understand your feelings. Oral sex is very intimate. And it really doesn’t matter at all whether someone cheated with PIV intercourse, oral intercourse, anal intercourse, handjob, fingering, mutual masturbation, making out, or even just passionate kissing. Those are all sexual acts, and in that context all of them constitute cheating. Thank you That is my point about OPs. Having oral sex with a 3rd party is even more hurtful than other stuff including even full intercourse. I am not sure about women, but I did not find anything more painful than seeing you wife giving oral sex to a guy and cheating. You would want to rewind and see the oral than anything else. The chemistry is high and painful more than otehr stauff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeanderCat Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 I'm so sorry to hear this but I'm gonna be honest with you. No matter how much you want to forget this, even if you can forgive it, you are never going to look at her the same way from now on. You will always know she is capable of this - and possibly more because now you know more than you did 9 years ago, and maybe there is still more to know. You're always going to wonder, because...it is natural to wonder and I would too. Anyone who says they wouldn't is lying. Personally I would separate for a while and give yourself - YOU - YOU YOURSELF - time to get over this truly shocking revelation (and for you it IS like it happened yesterday because you just found out about it) - and take some time to get over this, if you can, and decide WHAT YOU WANT IN A RELATIONSHIP and if this is it going forward. It doesn't sound like you two have married and I have to ask why? Have you always had some doubts in your mind about committing permanently to this woman despite having children, or is it marriage itself you object to? I really, strongly recommend you separate for a few months. You need to recover from this with some space between you and decide what you want and maybe try to find out if there is MORE to her life story than just this one or 2 events, because again, I'll be honest, there usually is, and you'll suspect that anyway, and also to give her a sense of what life would be like without you. I don't think you can continue with this heartache and just try to cover it up and pretend....as you see....9 years later this came back up and you discovered it was even worse. If you cover this up now and keep going on like you are.....it WILL come up again because it hasn't be resolved and you probably don't trust her anymore, and you might discover that more happened or happened with someone else. Right now, you don't know who this person really is. That's the truth of it no matter how much people tell you the forgive and forget BS, it's easy to say until you realize what your partner/spouse is capable of hiding from you and then you wonder - who IS this person. Separate for a while, go back to the beginning, try to find out who this person IS and what YOU really want in a relationship. It's hard, but if you don't do it, you'll be back here again (or somewhere else) but you won't forget about this. It has to be processed in some manner. Individual therapy may help but beware of people who just keep trying to get you to forgive and forget - it doesn't work like that, the hurt just goes deeper and erupts later, as you've seen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeanderCat Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 I'll tell you - I discovered my partner was cheating on my online - not even physical stuff - but just doing the online dating/sexting BS - nearly 10 years ago. I was furious, it was difficult to recover but there was no physical infidelity so we overcame it and kept going. Still together, no other incidents in that time. BUT....last year I was wondering where he was, why he was staying outside in the yard so long and discovered him talking to the pretty neighbor lady for quite a while - like half an hour (which is unusual for him). I was so angry, jealous, hurt - it all came back. IT ALL CAME BACK 10 YEARS LATER. And we didn't even have physical infidelity. And I know he's not cheating with her, even if he wanted to, she wouldn't be interested (I know this). It didn't stop my feelings though, it all came rushing back like it just happened, and it made me realize that in some ways, I just don't trust him anymore and I know he is capable of doing underhanded things. This is kind of what you're experiencing but worse. It doesn't go away so don't just try to make it go away. Separate for a while and work on it. You have to get to know this woman again, from the bottom up, and know what else she may have been doing (maybe nothing) before you can fully trust her again and put this to rest. Just covering it up doesn't work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeanderCat Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 (edited) Why do I particularly recommend separation? Because you need physical/emotional distance to be able to see your partner objectively and objectively assess your relationship. When you're with someone all the time, esp with kids, you're busy, you don't look at things, you try to get along. Keep the peace, enjoy the company, etc. If you are by yourself, you can think about your partner and relationship more calmly, more objectively and you may remember red flags you've ignored or forgotten about over the years. SOMETHING BROUGHT THIS BACK TO YOU 9 YEARS LATER. You may not remember what it is or you're burying it, but SOMETHING brought this back. If you separate for a while, you may find red flags that you had not considered when you were living together. While we all want to save relationships....they have to be based on honesty and mutual respect and TRUST. On some level you don't trust this woman or you wouldn't have asked. And I wouldn't trust her either. Separate for a while, assess your relationship, try to get some distance about what she's really like, see what others say about her - like who are her friends and how do they behave? If you can't rebuild trust - this is only going to come up again. Edited March 30 by NeanderCat removing stuff posted previously Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daveamec Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 On 3/31/2024 at 4:28 AM, NeanderCat said: I'm so sorry to hear this but I'm gonna be honest with you. No matter how much you want to forget this, even if you can forgive it, you are never going to look at her the same way from now on. You will always know she is capable of this - and possibly more because now you know more than you did 9 years ago, and maybe there is still more to know. You're always going to wonder, because...it is natural to wonder and I would too. Anyone who says they wouldn't is lying. Personally I would separate for a while and give yourself - YOU - YOU YOURSELF - time to get over this truly shocking revelation (and for you it IS like it happened yesterday because you just found out about it) - and take some time to get over this, if you can, and decide WHAT YOU WANT IN A RELATIONSHIP and if this is it going forward. It doesn't sound like you two have married and I have to ask why? Have you always had some doubts in your mind about committing permanently to this woman despite having children, or is it marriage itself you object to? I really, strongly recommend you separate for a few months. You need to recover from this with some space between you and decide what you want and maybe try to find out if there is MORE to her life story than just this one or 2 events, because again, I'll be honest, there usually is, and you'll suspect that anyway, and also to give her a sense of what life would be like without you. I don't think you can continue with this heartache and just try to cover it up and pretend....as you see....9 years later this came back up and you discovered it was even worse. If you cover this up now and keep going on like you are.....it WILL come up again because it hasn't be resolved and you probably don't trust her anymore, and you might discover that more happened or happened with someone else. Right now, you don't know who this person really is. That's the truth of it no matter how much people tell you the forgive and forget BS, it's easy to say until you realize what your partner/spouse is capable of hiding from you and then you wonder - who IS this person. Separate for a while, go back to the beginning, try to find out who this person IS and what YOU really want in a relationship. It's hard, but if you don't do it, you'll be back here again (or somewhere else) but you won't forget about this. It has to be processed in some manner. Individual therapy may help but beware of people who just keep trying to get you to forgive and forget - it doesn't work like that, the hurt just goes deeper and erupts later, as you've seen. It is not easy for separation with children . Very difficult I have found it. I have the same situation with chidden involved. Based on my wife cheating, And I could not easy go into separation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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