Advice appreciated

[Will am I]

7 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

How to help your spouse heal from your Affair

I found a book by that title, author Linda J MacDonald. That the one you mean?

8 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

[...] he crushed and shattered it

I'm sorry to read about your traumatic experience.

8 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

If you really want to save your marriage, you have to start acting like it. Was it really important to you to tell this girl happy birthday?

@scorchioThis is essentially my point too. The OW has to go.

Whether you want to save your marriage or even in the case that you decide to leave, OW can't be around.

Not at anytime between today and the formal end of your marriage. Just by being in contact, she's pulling on your heart, distracting you, clouding your head, making it impossible for you to whole-heartedly take the steps that you need to take. This part of the road, you will walk alone. Maybe you and your wife will find eachother again down the path, maybe you won't. But right now you are alone and there can only be a select number of (male) friends on your path. Walking with OW (even if it's in a benign interaction) wil set you up for failure.

A word of sympathy: I had a hard time letting go of xOW too, even after I decided to end things. I truly cared for her. Not all feelings you may have for "your" OW are inappropriate by themselves. I remember how "my" xOW aced an exam in university and I was delighted and proud. Nothing inappropriate about those feelings, but the fact that they were targeting a woman with a romance connection made them inappropriate for me. So I needed to step down further and go no-contact.

And yes, sometimes those feelings still emerge. Accept that they will be there, just don't feed them by sustaining contact.

[Starswillshine]

2 hours ago, scorchio said:

thanks for sharing your story . Can i ask why you eventually left?

1- I didn't like who I was any longer with him. After 2 years of the madness, I just couldn't do it anymore. I knew there was no way I could ever trust him again. I knew my life would then consist of being my husband's babysitter. Making sure he was where he said he would be, who he said he would be with, etc. I was tired of it. I was also suicidal and not at all present in life. I couldn't live like that. 

2- Every time I felt like I could get back up, some new detail would emerge setting me right back to square one. So regardless of how hard I tried to heal and get passed it, I was allowed. He trickle truth to the very end. 

3- Though I did what I could to be his babysitter... he still continued to speak to her. Which was a HUGE no. He would call from his office phone. I had no one of seeing that. Not until she went psycho and started giving me details. Often in forms of unsolicited texts, screenshots, photos,etc from many different numbers over the years. And that kept on well after our divorce. 

[scorchio]

29 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

1- I didn't like who I was any longer with him. After 2 years of the madness, I just couldn't do it anymore. I knew there was no way I could ever trust him again. I knew my life would then consist of being my husband's babysitter. Making sure he was where he said he would be, who he said he would be with, etc. I was tired of it. I was also suicidal and not at all present in life. I couldn't live like that. 

2- Every time I felt like I could get back up, some new detail would emerge setting me right back to square one. So regardless of how hard I tried to heal and get passed it, I was allowed. He trickle truth to the very end. 

3- Though I did what I could to be his babysitter... he still continued to speak to her. Which was a HUGE no. He would call from his office phone. I had no one of seeing that. Not until she went psycho and started giving me details. Often in forms of unsolicited texts, screenshots, photos,etc from many different numbers over the years. And that kept on well after our divorce. 

okay , thanks . your much happier now it seems 

[scorchio]

3 hours ago, Will am I said:

I found a book by that title, author Linda J MacDonald. That the one you mean?

I'm sorry to read about your traumatic experience.

@scorchioThis is essentially my point too. The OW has to go.

Whether you want to save your marriage or even in the case that you decide to leave, OW can't be around.

Not at anytime between today and the formal end of your marriage. Just by being in contact, she's pulling on your heart, distracting you, clouding your head, making it impossible for you to whole-heartedly take the steps that you need to take. This part of the road, you will walk alone. Maybe you and your wife will find eachother again down the path, maybe you won't. But right now you are alone and there can only be a select number of (male) friends on your path. Walking with OW (even if it's in a benign interaction) wil set you up for failure.

A word of sympathy: I had a hard time letting go of xOW too, even after I decided to end things. I truly cared for her. Not all feelings you may have for "your" OW are inappropriate by themselves. I remember how "my" xOW aced an exam in university and I was delighted and proud. Nothing inappropriate about those feelings, but the fact that they were targeting a woman with a romance connection made them inappropriate for me. So I needed to step down further and go no-contact.

And yes, sometimes those feelings still emerge. Accept that they will be there, just don't feed them by sustaining contact.

thanks , i’ll have a look at that book

[Starswillshine]

3 hours ago, Will am I said:

I found a book by that title, author Linda J MacDonald. That the one you mean?

Yes, I believe so. It is a short read. 

I definitely feel like for you, specifically, it will be a good read. I think you completely understand and feel sympathy, etc. It may help with some small things for your marriage. You've come a long way!

[Starswillshine]

4 minutes ago, scorchio said:

okay , thanks . your much happier now it seems 

I am. I am getting married next year to a man who loves me and understands and respect boundaries. His prior longterm girlfriend cheated on his as well, so together, we make a great partnership of understanding and learning how things can get out of control. We never put ourselves in situations that could allow someone to develop feelings. Yes, he works with other women. Yes, I work with other men. But it is really easy to keep those walls up and jeep appropriate boundaries. 

 

 All my kids are happier. Unfortunately, only my son (who is the oldest and now an adult, wasn't at the time) has a relationship with him. Though he does work with them and they share in the same hobbies. My daughter, who is now an adult, barely speaks to him and sees him only on holidays. Some of it is because she is 90 minutes away in college, but she does not care for him. My 2 youngest still see him, but only every other weekend.  And they do not particularly enjoy going there. He has a live in girlfriend and yet still travels and goes to dinner with other women frequently. They do not approve. He does not understand how his personal life is affecting his relationships with his 3 daughters. 

 

[Will am I]

52 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

Yes, I believe so. It is a short read. 

I definitely feel like for you, specifically, it will be a good read.

Were you addressing me or Scorchio?

(if you recommend the book to me, i’ll put it on my kindle sttaight away)

[Starswillshine]

2 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Were you addressing me or Scorchio?

(if you recommend the book to me, i’ll put it on my kindle sttaight away)

I was addressing you. If you feel like your relationship still has some humps to recover, I think it may be able to help a little. (There was a free pdf version floating around the internet at some point). You probably have done many of the things listed. It may give you new ideas, or maybe not. 

Sincerely- you seem to be one of the few who truly gets it and really wants to do all he can to fix things. It may just be another tool in your tool belt. 

[mark clemson]

OP, I think it's important to point out that, while most people are indeed quite emotionally hurt, not everyone turns to screaming, venting, and physical abuse to "process" their hurt.

There are plenty of people who, while very upset, are able to remain calm and, given some time, take constructive steps either towards reconciliation or towards leaving the relationship.

There are people who murder their partner when they discover infidelity. Does the depth of their distress make murder "ok"? Of course not. IMO the fact they resorted to murder makes it quite clear that there is something deeply wrong with them insofar as that's how they process distress and betrayal.

It's important to not allow yourself to accept or normalize your wife's abusive behavior by letting the distress of infidelity become an excuse for it. Anger is normal, abuse is not. While I recognize that infidelity can sometimes bring out the worst in people, AND that you have some cleaning up of your act to do, certainly so does she.

Edited October 5, 2022 by mark clemson

[Starswillshine]

8 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Anger is normal, abuse is not.

100%. I need to make sure I am clear on this, as well. Physical abuse is NEVER OK. 

[mark clemson]

OP, neither physical, nor sustained emotional abuse should be accepted, tolerated, or normalized. Emotional abuse can be quite devastating without any physical component.

That said, it's also true that, while not normally intended as abuse, infidelity can be quite devastating as well and clearly was for your wife.

IMO your wife needs help (ie, therapy) AND your continued contact with your AP is risking a lot more hurt to her. If she finds out you continued contact (and there's a good chance she will) it's just going to cause further problems.

[scorchio]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

OP, neither physical, nor sustained emotional abuse should be accepted, tolerated, or normalized. Emotional abuse can be quite devastating without any physical component.

That said, it's also true that, while not normally intended as abuse, infidelity can be quite devastating as well and clearly was for your wife.

IMO your wife needs help (ie, therapy) AND your continued contact with your AP is risking a lot more hurt to her. If she finds out you continued contact (and there's a good chance she will) it's just going to cause further problems.

thanks Mark. i’m finding it difficult. 

i’ll need to change my mindset . it’s so miserable at home that the only sliver of joy i’m getting is when talking with AP and i know that’s wrong. stopping contact is the right thing to do.  but that’s not news at this point i suppose . 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by scorchio

[scorchio]

10 hours ago, Will am I said:

Were you addressing me or Scorchio?

(if you recommend the book to me, i’ll put it on my kindle sttaight away)

can i ask you a question please mate. When in your affair did you still love your wife? if not then did the love come back after you went no contact ? 

[Will am I]

I always did love her.

Maybe not in the right way, maybe not whole-heartedly, maybe I had checked out, but I was never completely gone.

I was more prone for the thought that my wife didn’t really love me than vice versa.

Being in an EA, my feelings for my wife diminished, coming out of the EA with the choice to invest in my marriage and give it my best shot, the feelings became gradually stronger.

Counseling is helping too, a lot. Part of the problem is that my wife did not learn to express her feelngs well when she grew up. Part of the problem is that I wasn’t too good at understanding her emotions either.

 

It seems you are still at the point where you are looking for direction in your stay/go decision.

If you can honestly (without anger, resentment or sadness) say that you do not love your wife anymore, and she’s gotten to the point that she’d rather punish you than choose to stay (and work with you to fix things) or go… then your decision should be clear. 

But are you really at that point?

[scorchio]

32 minutes ago, Will am I said:

 

I was more prone for the thought that my wife didn’t really 

Being in an EA, my feelings for my wife diminished, coming out of the EA with the choice to invest in my marriage and give it my best shot, the feelings became gradually stronger.

Counseling is helping too, a lot. Part of the problem is that my wife did not learn to express her feelngs well when she grew up. Part of the problem is that I wasn’t too good at understanding her emotions either.

 

It seems you are still at the point where you are looking for direction in your stay/go decision.

If you can honestly (without anger, resentment or sadness) say that you do not love your wife anymore, and she’s gotten to the point that she’d rather punish you than choose to stay (and work with you to fix things) or go… then your decision should be clear. 

But are you really at that point?

different for me as i’ve no doubt she loves me and it’s never been a concern . 

i don’t know how i feel about her anymore and of course the situation has muddied the waters .

the strength of feeling i have for AP has shook me to my core , honestly . and even if i never end up with her (which seems likely ) i don’t think i’ll have that  with wife (or have ever had ) 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by scorchio

[Will am I]

I think you are experiencing conflicting feelings: infatuation towards OW, fear of divorce etc.

Take some distance, get your head clear and approach this rationally.

 

What I sense is this: OW has shown you that you would have preferred to marry another partner. Essentially that equates to regret over getting married with your current wife. A very rational question: does that realization of regret also mean that you need to get a divorce? After all, we can't turn back time and the outcome of marriage+divorce is different than the outcome of not having married in the first place. Differences are years spent in the marriage, alimony payments, emotional and spiritual wounds, and of course having a child. But there is also commonality between the two scenarios, most notably the fact that both as a single or as a devorcee you are free to enter into a new relationship.

How strong is the regret? How appealing is the idea to start over?

 

My suggestion is that you could be brutally honest with OW: tell her that you would have preferred to be married to her. But you are not, and this affair isn't leading in that direction either, so you are ending the affair. No sense lingering in infatuation if there is no perspective, all it does is to steal your heart away from other options.

Then with the ongoing affair out of the way, you will experience increasing clarity. This is where you will make your choice about whether or not you will stay in the marriage or at which conditions you will. 

The scary part: you are taking a blind leap. Maybe OW realizes that she too wants to be with you forever. Maybe she won't. Maybe you realize that you will make the best of your current marriage. Maybe you or your wife will choose to end it. You are currently in two relationships, you will be in zero or one and there's no telling which one. That's why I wrote you need to walk this part of your journey alone. Your wife and affair partner are both not in a position to advise you.

[scorchio]

54 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I think you are experiencing conflicting feelings: infatuation towards OW, fear of divorce etc.

Take some distance, get your head clear and approach this rationally.

 

What I sense is this: OW has shown you that you would have preferred to marry another partner. Essentially that equates to regret over getting married with your current wife. A very rational question: does that realization of regret also mean that you need to get a divorce? After all, we can't turn back time and the outcome of marriage+divorce is different than the outcome of not having married in the first place. Differences are years spent in the marriage, alimony payments, emotional and spiritual wounds, and of course having a child. But there is also commonality between the two scenarios, most notably the fact that both as a single or as a devorcee you are free to enter into a new relationship.

How strong is the regret? How appealing is the idea to start over?

 

My suggestion is that you could be brutally honest with OW: tell her that you would have preferred to be married to her. But you are not, and this affair isn't leading in that direction either, so you are ending the affair. No sense lingering in infatuation if there is no perspective, all it does is to steal your heart away from other options.

Then with the ongoing affair out of the way, you will experience increasing clarity. This is where you will make your choice about whether or not you will stay in the marriage or at which conditions you will. 

The scary part: you are taking a blind leap. Maybe OW realizes that she too wants to be with you forever. Maybe she won't. Maybe you realize that you will make the best of your current marriage. Maybe you or your wife will choose to end it. You are currently in two relationships, you will be in zero or one and there's no telling which one. That's why I wrote you need to walk this part of your journey alone. Your wife and affair partner are both not in a position to advise you.

yes totally conflicted . thanks for the advice. it does make sense . 

[Starswillshine]

12 hours ago, scorchio said:

the strength of feeling i have for AP has shook me to my core , honestly . and even if i never end up with her (which seems likely ) i don’t think i’ll have that  with wife (or have ever had ) 

Truth is... you will never experience those feelings with anyone else unless it is another affair. Affairs are different, and by their nature, they cause extreme intensity in feelings. 

Also add in, pretty much all new relationships have an intense beginning. But that starts to fade over time as well. If I remember correctly, this affair has not been that long. So throw that into the mix of why you feel the way you do for her. 

All I am saying is your thoughts are clouded right now and are not based on reality. 

[Wiseman2]

Unfortunately as I read through this it's almost like a zen koan that has no answer because "how can I improve my marriage and stay iove with my coworker" seems unanswerable.

 

[scorchio]

1 hour ago, Starswillshine said:

If I remember correctly, this affair has not been that long. So throw that into the mix of why you feel the way you do for her.

EA started this time last year, but we had been friends for 5 years previously . then kiss and inappropriate messages in dec/jan. 

[Will am I]

3 minutes ago, scorchio said:

EA started this time last year, but we had been friends for 5 years previously . then kiss and inappropriate messages in dec/jan. 

That's close to a year. Is it fair to say that the affair hasn't blossomed into something more over the course of this time? That it's been kind of rippling along for months now?

You shared with us how deeply you're into OW. Force it to a pivot point. Confess your love, let OW know that you would marry her if she were available. But leave the affair as its not heading towards a marriage. 

 

 

 

[scorchio]

49 minutes ago, Will am I said:

That's close to a year. Is it fair to say that the affair hasn't blossomed into something more over the course of this time? That it's been kind of rippling along for months now?

You shared with us how deeply you're into OW. Force it to a pivot point. Confess your love, let OW know that you would marry her if she were available. But leave the affair as its not heading towards a marriage. 

 

 

 

it was caught quite early so that made it hard to “blossom “ hence the rippling along. as neither of us did the right think by going no contact . it just got more emotionally intense since. 

we have already spoken about being together , how our life might be , marriage etc. but it’s unlikely to ever happen i think . 

 

[Will am I]

Then unfortunately it's clear that you won't be in a oommitted LTR with your OW. 

Consider this: sustaining a relationship without a future is going to incrementally frustrate and hurt you more and more.  It may be hard to let go when you're in love, but it is in your own best interest.  

[scorchio]

9 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Then unfortunately it's clear that you won't be in a oommitted LTR with your OW. 

Consider this: sustaining a relationship without a future is going to incrementally frustrate and hurt you more and more.  It may be hard to let go when you're in love, but it is in your own best interest.  

you are correct 

[BrinnM]

25 minutes ago, scorchio said:

but it’s unlikely to ever happen i think

Says who? You or your OW? Either way, that’s sad, because it sounds like your wife is the mere backup plan here. I bet she would hate being in this position, if she knew. 
It’s like saying “we talked about being together officially, and we talked about how great a marriage would be between us, but it isn’t likely to happen (why though?), so I’ve gotta stay with my wife (for now, until something better comes along).” 
 

Is this what you choose? It’s certainly not what your wife would choose. It’s probably not what your son would choose, either, if he were older and able to understand all of this.