Advice appreciated

[Will am I]

Only you can answer the question. Efforts to save your marriage are doomed if you’re not motivated yourself.

[BrinnM]

5 hours ago, scorchio said:

For our son , for the life we had. finances , the hope that things could get better, fear of the unknown , fear that divorce may be the biggest mistake of my life etc, probably for all the wrong reasons 

Everybody who ever got divorced had these fears. You’re not the only one. Not wanting to be the bad guy, money, being judged by extended family, parenting schedules, the list goes on. But being stuck like you are is no way to live. Especially for your wife.  

[scorchio]

12 minutes ago, BrinnM said:

Everybody who ever got divorced had these fears. You’re not the only one. Not wanting to be the bad guy, money, being judged by extended family, parenting schedules, the list goes on. But being stuck like you are is no way to live. Especially for your wife.  

of course, doesn’t make it any easier though . 

[Will am I]

1 hour ago, scorchio said:

She herself has a long term partner and young child . in fact she is less likely to leave her relationship than me.

Her infidelity is on her. I advise you try and see the two sides separately.

Food for thought: should the fact that she doesn’t have her hands clean dictate that she’s not deserve a respectful treatment?

Like I write before: some affairs are clearly one person taking advantage of the other; others are gray areas. But generally, people with non-committed partners are cut short of what they should be getting. 

[scorchio]

14 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Her infidelity is on her. I advise you try and see the two sides separately.

Food for thought: should the fact that she doesn’t have her hands clean dictate that she’s not deserve a respectful treatment?

Like I write before: some affairs are clearly one person taking advantage of the other; others are gray areas. But generally, people with non-committed partners are cut short of what they should be getting. 

but what do you mean by respectful treatment ? sorry if i’m coming across thick here. 

and by non committed partner do you mean me towards her or towards my wife or something else ? 

Edited October 1, 2022 by scorchio

[BrinnM]

19 minutes ago, Will am I said:

But generally, people with non-committed partners are cut short of what they should be getting. 

[I mean, when I was a sOW, this never bothered me.]
 

wrt OP, I think his OW is just fine. More fine than OP, it seems. 
And my guess is that he’s just waiting for his OW to pull the plug and leave the father of her child, so he can follow suit. Then they can be together, and he will have less fears, because at least his next relationship will be lined up.

Which is even more horrible from his W’s perspective. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by BrinnM
Typo

[Will am I]

My xOW was also like that. She didn't mind coming in second place, she strongly reassured me about that.

In her case, I don't think she was capable of being in an intimate and committed relationship because of psychological damage caused by childhood abuse. Intimacy in a loose and uncommitted relationship was probably her way to experience some love and intimacy (basic human needs) despite the damage.

When I walked out of the EA, she was like "don't worry, I knew this was coming". No hard feelings, thanks for the fun while it lasted. But even though she never complained about the treatment I still believe it was sub standard for her or any woman to be living off crumbs.

 

35 minutes ago, BrinnM said:

his next relationship will be lined up.

I think this may be one of the things women resent most around the end of marriages, that men won't leave unless there's another lady in sight.

And I tend to agree with that POV.

Statistics tell that a large majority of divorces is instantiated by the wife.

There may be several partial explanations, but "men who will cheat but won't leave" seems to be a thing.

 

 

 

[scorchio]

6 minutes ago, Will am I said:

My xOW was also like that. She didn't mind coming in second place, she strongly reassured me about that.

In her case, I don't think she was capable of being in an intimate and committed relationship because of psychological damage caused by childhood abuse. Intimacy in a loose and uncommitted relationship was probably her way to experience some love and intimacy (basic human needs) despite the damage.

When I walked out of the EA, she was like "don't worry, I knew this was coming". No hard feelings, thanks for the fun while it lasted. But even though she never complained about the treatment I still believe it was sub standard for her or any woman to be living off crumbs.

 

I think this may be one of the things women resent most around the end of marriages, that men won't leave unless there's another lady in sight.

And I tend to agree with that POV.

Statistics tell that a large majority of divorces is instantiated by the wife.

There may be several partial explanations, but "men who will cheat but won't leave" seems to be a thing.

 

 

 

in my case OW is very clear that nothing can or will happen unless we both are out of our relationships, and like me she is very torn over hers . If i leave my marriage it will be be because things are so bad after what i did. for OW it will be because she has been in an unloving relationship for years . and yes i suppose if we both left then we would like to see how things could go with us  but neither of us will leave just for the other person . it’s still not easy to leave regardless 

[BrinnM]

13 minutes ago, Will am I said:

There may be several partial explanations, but "men who will cheat but won't leave" seems to be a thing.

Right, statistically speaking. Mine did though, but it didn’t last (it did, but just a few years). 

With OP being so unhappy, though, he might be a candidate for leaving at some point, but only if the OW leaves her current relationship first. Is my guess. He’s “blaming” it on the child, but I think it’s because of OW who’s staying put that he’s still in his M. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Edited October 1, 2022 by BrinnM

[Will am I]

2 minutes ago, scorchio said:

If i leave my marriage it will be be because things are so bad after what i did.

Please understand that this can feel terribly unfair to your wife. 

Her perspective would be something like this: "he cheated and now he wants to leave me???" It's so infuriating because she might feel that she should be the one on control of the stay/go decision.

But when we take the situation away from this frame of guilt and justice, I find it very understandable. The marriage had problems before the affair, and they became worse during/after the affair. Even if you were the guilty one, it can be a valid conclusion that the marriage has no future. And if your wife refuses to recognize that, you still may. It takes to to be in a marriage. If one wants out, it's done. 

2 minutes ago, scorchio said:

for OW it will be because she has been in an unloving relationship for years

It's so much easier to leave if your husband would beat you up one drunken night and everything is clear on that moment -- you need to leave right now. When a the pain is caused by a thousand small episodes, where do you draw the line? Fleeing into an (emotional) affair at work is a way to soothe the pain and loneliness and not have to face the facts. So I'm not too optimistic about her leaving. Her behaviour so far doesn't indicate that she is going that way.

12 minutes ago, BrinnM said:

Is my guess. He’s “blaming” it on the child, but I think it’s because of OW who’s staying put that he’s still in his M.

I feel the same way.

It's easy and socially acceptible to say you're staying with your wife because you don't want to be separated from your children. Is it true though? Or is it really about the availability of the next potential life partner.

 

[BrinnM]

@Will am I- No, it’s not true - Millions and billions of men have gone through the same exact thing and have not lost their children. The legal system in modern societies wouldn’t allow that anyways. So yes it’s an excuse. Most definitely

[Will am I]

Getting divorced does come with a very real risk of conflict, especially if there are still feelings, if there is anger that didn't find recognition and the spouse if vindicative.

And so many times, custody and visitation will be at the heart of the conflict. In traditional marriages and divorces, men hold the money and women hold the family. So it's no wonder what cards will be played when a divorce becomes a power struggle.

So I do feel that the fear of losing contact with the children is a very real fear. I've seen more than one case of nasty custody battles in my personal circle. Usually after a bunch of years it calms down and normalizes, but alienation is a steady process.

 

Nevertheless, it's also the socially acceptable answer when the real answer is the availability of a new partner. So an excluse. And in this case, I think your observation makes sense. 

[Wiseman2]

37 minutes ago, scorchio said:

in my case OW is very clear that nothing can or will happen unless we both are out of our relationships, and like me she is very torn over hers . If i leave my marriage it will be be because things are so bad after what i did. for OW it will be because she has been in an unloving relationship for years . and yes i suppose if we both left then we would like to see how things could go with us  but neither of us will leave just for the other person . it’s still not easy to leave regardless 

Yes. It sounds like you realize the "we'll leave our awful spouses and dead marriages and ride off into the sunset happily ever after" is the typical affair fantasy. It's just an escape no more valuable or useful than  being addicted too TV, video games or anything else. It's a Band-Aid on a cancer. That's all this affair is. Your malignant marriage will simply get worse and worse and your son will keep suffering more and more because you're stuck in a fantasy.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Wiseman2

[Despin]

You messed up by kissing a coworker- but her smashing a vacuum over your head is completely over the top.

I'm thinking there's nothing left to save here.

 

[glows]

40 minutes ago, scorchio said:

in my case OW is very clear that nothing can or will happen unless we both are out of our relationships, and like me she is very torn over hers . If i leave my marriage it will be be because things are so bad after what i did. for OW it will be because she has been in an unloving relationship for years . and yes i suppose if we both left then we would like to see how things could go with us  but neither of us will leave just for the other person . it’s still not easy to leave regardless 

Life could be a lot simpler - without accepting an affair or taking on burdens and problems of another woman removed from your family. Don’t keep avoiding what isn’t working(your marriage). It’s not accomplishing anything, least of all resolution and starting anew. Why keep paralyzed or immobilized with fear and accept an affair to complicate matters? This all seems radically counterproductive.

[RebeccaR]

OP, is it possible one reason you don’t want to divorce is it will change your relationship with the OW? You will be single and she will still be married. Right now the affair is continuing on an emotional level, but she may pull back once you are a single man. That’s a very real fear but not a fair reason to stay with your wife.

[BrinnM]

39 minutes ago, glows said:

Why keep paralyzed or immobilized with fear and accept an affair to complicate matters?

I agree, but this seems to be his “safe procrastination space”. He doesn’t have to deal with “immediate hardship”, if he keeps procrastinating by saying if I leave it will be because this and that, and if ow leaves it’s because she’s in an unloving relationship. And so forth. It’s frustrating if you look at the situation as an unbiased party/outsider, but for OP, it’s a way to postpone dealing with the inevitable. 

[scorchio]

1 hour ago, BrinnM said:

I agree, but this seems to be his “safe procrastination space”. He doesn’t have to deal with “immediate hardship”, if he keeps procrastinating by saying if I leave it will be because this and that, and if ow leaves it’s because she’s in an unloving relationship. And so forth. It’s frustrating if you look at the situation as an unbiased party/outsider, but for OP, it’s a way to postpone dealing with the inevitable. 

well of course this is a safe space, isn’t that the whole idea?? 

[scorchio]

2 hours ago, BrinnM said:

@Will am I- No, it’s not true - Millions and billions of men have gone through the same exact thing and have not lost their children. The legal system in modern societies wouldn’t allow that anyways. So yes it’s an excuse. Most definitely

i find this quite a strange reply . yep lots of people are divorced but is it so hard to believe that not getting to see my son every day would be very very hard. if and when divorce happens then i will have to deal with it and hopefully it will work out but to say it’s an excuse  i’d just plain wrong . 

[scorchio]

2 hours ago, Will am I said:

 

It's easy and socially acceptible to say you're staying with your wife because you don't want to be separated from your children. Is it true though? Or is it really about the availability of the next potential life partner.

 

it’s absolutely true. Anyway things have gotten no better and possibly even worse since my original post . Wife has massive anxiety by what i’ve done but it’s translated to ever more erratic behaviour. 

[scorchio]

2 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

OP, is it possible one reason you don’t want to divorce is it will change your relationship with the OW? You will be single and she will still be married. Right now the affair is continuing on an emotional level, but she may pull back once you are a single man. That’s a very real fear but not a fair reason to stay with your wife.

hmmm, not really , although she is the only one i can talk to about all of this (before coming on here) . Divorce feels like a step backward in my life sill as that may sound . 

[Acacia98]

1 hour ago, scorchio said:

hmmm, not really , although she is the only one i can talk to about all of this (before coming on here) . Divorce feels like a step backward in my life sill as that may sound . 

Sorry. But I can't remember this from the earlier posts: are you at least going for counselling? If not, you need to. You need the guidance of a professional. You're making some not so great choices right now (including continuing to talk to the OW) while your wife's mental health seems to be falling apart and your child is suffering grave emotional harm. Do you need help figuring out what resources exist at your location?

At least a professional will be qualified to give you the kind of guidance you need. That's something that neither we nor the OW can do. 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Will am I said:

Getting divorced does come with a very real risk of conflict, especially if there are still feelings, if there is anger that didn't find recognition and the spouse if vindicative.

I've seen more than one case of nasty custody battles in my personal circle. Usually after a bunch of years it calms down and normalizes, but alienation is a steady process.

Ditto here. Part of the "dynamic" here may be that you don't want to deal with how your wife might act after a divorce and/or you want "support" in place if you do leave.

Some places have court-ordered communication ONLY via monitored chat and only for co-parenting precisely because the x tends to use any communication as an opportunity to vent/attack.

[BrinnM]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

how your wife might act after a divorce and/or you want "support" in place if you do leave.

I mean, no offense, but if it’s that bad and so scary that as a full-grown man you have to be afraid of leaving your wife, and you need extra support, yeah, then it’s definitely time to leave. Like yesterday. But I don’t think he would still be there if it was that bad. He would’ve grabbed his kid and moved in with friends, extended fam, or parents, just to get out of there. And maybe he should have, after the Roomba incident. 

[mark clemson]

^^ you certainly have a point. I don't think it's a matter of "that bad" necessarily - I think some people just have a very high tolerance for a partner's abuse/"crazy" before they actually decide to leave a relationship. E.g. all the battered wormen out there who stay for years before leaving. (And sometimes men as well.) Not everyone will stick around, but some will for whatever reasons.

No doubt there are times when it really wasn't "that bad" but hitting someone with a roomba, sustained verbal abuse, and badmouthing someone to their child, IMO does qualify.  That said, OP must make his own decisions.

Edited October 1, 2022 by mark clemson