Is trying to save my marriage the right thing?

[BrinnM]

8 hours ago, Will am I said:

I do wonder what causes it most. There must be several contributing factors but I haven't figured out where the biggest risk comes from. Am I most at risk because the money gives me more feelings of entitlement? Or is the bigger factor that it gives me more freedom and possibilities to spend something outside the marriage without my wife noticing? Or is it a factor that money makes people more attractive and hence provides me with more opportinity?

Only you can answer these questions, especially the one that addresses a possible sense of entitlement. You don't strike me as someone who feels entitled, though. Are you? (Because to me, you sound more introspective, if anything) ....... For most, yes, I would stay it plays a role. Men feel more confident if they don't struggle with money, and if they have extra $$ available to spend. This, in turn, attracts the attention of (certain) women. Not only because they see the money, but also because they sense confidence. And that's attractive. And yes, being able to spend (on your lover, if you're so inclined) without your partner noticing definitely helps, for practical reasons.  

[ExpatInItaly]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

when someone has cheated repeatedly during the entire marriage, I personally would say that is an abusive thing to do to their spouse

I agree. 

This isn't love. Quite the opposite. 

[Will am I]

1 hour ago, BrinnM said:

Only you can answer these questions, especially the one that addresses a possible sense of entitlement. You don't strike me as someone who feels entitled, though. Are you? (Because to me, you sound more introspective, if anything) ....... For most, yes, I would stay it plays a role. Men feel more confident if they don't struggle with money, and if they have extra $$ available to spend. This, in turn, attracts the attention of (certain) women. Not only because they see the money, but also because they sense confidence. And that's attractive. And yes, being able to spend (on your lover, if you're so inclined) without your partner noticing definitely helps, for practical reasons.  

I generally dislike entitlement, very strongly even. But I believe it has played at least a little bit of a role. “I can afford to do this”. Which is of course a false reason. I may be the breadwinner but family law is on my wife’s side. She has every possibility to walk out, so my risk of losing is as great as anyone’s. 
 

[heartwhole2]

7 hours ago, lou65198 said:

Yes agreed. He says that he loves me but I think it’s just the guilt talking, or he’s confusing the feelings of guilt and shame with love, but it’s just because he feels bad about what’s happened and having been caught… 

I mean, sure, he believes he loves you on some level, but that doesn't mean much if his definition of love is "have lots of affairs but keep you around." It really sounds like he loves  himself first and foremost.

The most basic form of love is transactional. A deeper, richer love is transformational. It's its own self-reinforcing cycle. It not only loves you for who you are, but inspires you to be the best version of yourself. It's when the sum is greater than the individual parts added together could make. I am doubtful that any kind of deep love is on offer with your husband. He's not even trying very hard to convince you to stay. As I shared, it's hard enough to move through/past infidelity when you do see your partner trying desperately to make amends because it's not something you could ever "make up for." But certainly, the attempt to do the impossible says a lot to the wounded heart.

4 hours ago, Will am I said:

I generally dislike entitlement, very strongly even. But I believe it has played at least a little bit of a role. “I can afford to do this”. Which is of course a false reason. I may be the breadwinner but family law is on my wife’s side. She has every possibility to walk out, so my risk of losing is as great as anyone’s. 
 

I'm not getting the sense that Lou's husband dislikes entitlement. And I'm not sensing a lot of empathy from him. To be fair, that was a big failing of my husband's too. The marriage counselor that we rushed to after DDay said he was "low on empathy" and "self-absorbed." Now he has always been a very giving and generous person, but if you are only generous when it makes you feel good, then maybe it's more based on the pay-off than true concern for the other person. I think that's what his later individual counseling was very useful for. I don't believe that you are just born grateful and empathetic and humble. I think you have to cultivate these traits -- practice them. You have to say, I want to be this kind of person, so I am going to set myself up to succeed.

And Will, to answer your questions about the cause of entitlement, I think it's the default setting in our culture which idolizes wealth and status. You don't even have to try to be entitled if you're wealthy; you just have to go along with the current. If you want to stay grounded and full of empathy, then you need to step outside of the bubble of wealth and look at what the world is like for most people on this planet. You need to practice being grateful - regularly call to mind what you have to be grateful for. If you don't, then inertia will drag you along into feeling superior, entitled, not too concerned about others' feelings, focused on what you can get, etc.

 

 

[Oscar555]

I am 44(m) and have been with my wife for 18 years. We have 3 kids. 

Not usually one to consult the internet generally but could do with objective viewpoints to get my head straight. 

Over a year ago I started an affair with another woman. It’s not the first time I’ve been unfaithful  (my wife never found out about the others although I have confessed everything now) though it was the first full-blown emotional and physical affair. 

I never saw myself as someone who would cheat, but my marriage has been unhealthy for a long time. There has been no physical intimacy for years. There is just no attraction there. I would say at best we co-parent well and used to get along fine in the day to day, but that’s about it. I have a very demanding job but nothing I do is ever good enough for my wife who can be very critical, and sometimes downright demeaning, including swearing at me, often withholds any kind of affection, opts for the silent treatment as punishment… I earn quite well and she is a SAHM and we have a lot of home help as I’m so busy with work, but still it is not enough and she frequently complains about how unhappy she is and how I should be doing more to help. She’s quite often contemptuous towards me, we don’t do a huge amount together as a couple. I would say things have been bad for several years. I have tried to improve things and talk about it but nothing seems to work. 

She doesn’t seem to care about me other than the fact I provide well for her and the kids. 

I know being unfaithful is never the answer, and I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I felt so trapped at home. I never considered myself to be desperately unhappy but I think I was in denial, frequently looking for ways to avoid going home… burying myself in work. My children are young and I would never want to leave them, I thought seeking some sort of outlet outside of the marriage would enable it, in a strange way, to continue and there would be stability for the kids. 

The problem is in the latest affair I completely fell for the OW, it wasn’t intended. We just clicked and I think it was so seductive in light of the fact the emotional and physical element of my marriage had all but disappeared and I was craving that sense of connection. My wife suspected, I guess it must have been obvious and went looking for evidence, I thought I’d been careful but she found out. 

Since then my life has been a living hell. I confessed everything. I feel absolutely terrible about what I’ve done and have committed to trying to make the marriage work, which is what my wife wants. I think I want this too, but I don’t know if it’s just because I’m feeling guilty and want the pain to stop… and to do what is best for the kids. Despite everything I do love her as we have a lot of shared history, she is the mother of my children, but it is in an entirely different way to how I felt with my AP. If I’d met them both at the same time, my AP would have been the one. 

I miss her immensely, and I also feel like I’ve hurt her because we weren’t able to have the life together I know we would have had otherwise, but I also never wanted to leave my kids or disrupt their lives. 

My wife has also behaved in ways that make me question whether or not this is the right thing. She has threatened to commit suicide if I leave. To take the kids abroad. To ‘clean me out’ if we were to divorce. She controls and has sight of all the finances and communication, I know this might be justified in the aftermath of an affair, but this was happening before only now it is more extreme. She is not happy about me going to work and I am now working mainly from home again. I understand she feels hurt, betrayed and terrified, but given there were unhealthy behaviours beforehand, it feels like it is now even more extreme and the situation even more untenable. 

I don’t know if the reaction is because she actually loves me and is scared of losing me, or if she doesn’t want to uproot her life in any way and is enraged at being humiliated. She’s furious at me, understandably, but given there was so little love in the marriage beforehand I don’t know if this is coming from a place of genuine hurt and love for me. I’m surprised in a way she was even this upset and was sure she would just want a divorce. 

I ended the affair at my wife’s insistence but to be honest given the way she was behaving I almost felt like I had no choice. At that point I hadn’t had time to truly reflect on what I felt was best or what I wanted. I think under other circumstances I would, in my heart of hearts, want to be with my AP, and I know she felt the same. But the situation felt so out of control I am just trying to get things at home back to place of stability. 

I don’t know if this is normal. If it’s all my fault. I’m conflicted about my feelings for my AP which I am trying to ignore, but I still think of her a lot although we are NC now and have been for months. My wife and I fight all the time, there are no signs of true reconciliation yet although I don’t know if it’s too early, and I feel guilty because of what I’ve done and the hurt I’ve caused, but also exasperated and terrified that this is the life I’m now looking at just so I don’t lose access to my kids or she does something stupid. 

I don’t know if the relationship is toxic and unsalvageable or if this is all my fault and I should be doing my utmost to help my wife heal and accept that fact I must have problems I need to work on myself, in that I allowed this to happen. I don’t know sometimes what we are even fighting so hard to get back to, as things haven’t been good for a long time, but also feel like owe it to my wife now to at least try, and to repair the damage I’ve caused as I know I shouldn’t have been unfaithful. 

Any thoughts or advice appreciated. 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, Oscar555 said:

  My wife and I fight all the time, there are no signs of true reconciliation.

Why not consult an attorney and discuss your options in the event of divorce? For example many of your wife's threats. 

How old are your 3 children? Discuss that with an attorney as well including child support and custody/visitation.

You're not doing yourself, your wife and especially your children any favors living in a warzone like this while daydreaming about and running to mistresses.

It may be a relief for everyone involved if you talk to an attorney and start with a legal separation.

[BaileyB]

If you haven’t already, I would say the single best thing you could do for yourself is get yourself to a counsellor. Individual counselling first, then marriage counselling if you decide to stay together. 

There is always two sides to any story so I’m hesitant because we obviously don’t have your wife’s experience of your marriage and subsequent affair(s), but if everything you say is true then it’s time to stop the charade and file for divorce. This is not. Healthy home in which you should be raising children - I would think they would do better with two parents living separately rather than locked in a loveless marriage full of conflict and disrespect. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by BaileyB

[Will am I]

This is a LOT of information and emotion in a single post. 

I do not oversee the full picture rationally, but I can respond intuitively.

My intuition tells me that your marriage seems unsalvageable. Your wife has been cold, hostile, checked out not very respectful for years, even before she knew about your infidelity.

6 hours ago, Oscar555 said:

There has been no physical intimacy for years.

6 hours ago, Oscar555 said:

She doesn’t seem to care about me other than the fact I provide well for her and the kids. 

As a man, I would guess that these two connect. Your statement in the second quote probably reflects how men feel when their wife checked out of the marriage.

Now you confessed a history of multiple affairs on top of it, which would be enough to make even a good marriage shake on its foundations. My feeling: it's too much.

Then I read:

6 hours ago, Oscar555 said:

I feel absolutely terrible about what I’ve done and have committed to trying to make the marriage work, which is what my wife wants.

Let's be totally honest. Do you really want to make a marriage work if you were already so unhappy for a long time? 

And your wife? First she's already checked out for years and doesn't seem to want to do anything to please you. Then you hurt her tremendously on top of that. And now she wants to fix the marriage? It doesn't make sense. I don't know her motivations, maybe it's convenience, social status, the marital home, whatever. Maybe it's religious beliefs or not wanting to deal with the reality that she'd ever be a divorced woman. But it does not seem like she would be motivated to making it a pleasing experience for you.

 

If you choose to go down this path, set a deadline. Not as a means to threaten your wife, but as a way to limit your hurt and keep a light at the end of the tunnel. Get your goals, priorities and deal breakers straight for yourself first.

Then: communication is essential. I found it *very* hard to tell my wife that I did not want to continue on the old path. That I would love more than anything to be happy with her in a better version of our marriage, but that I was not happy in out current relationship and that I would prefer divorce over a continuation of that. I phrased it in the most loving way I could, but I needed to repeat the message a number of times during a tear-filled conversation of two hours. Just to make sure that she understood this was not going to just go away.

 

Then in your case there's another complication: you would prefer to be with your AP. Which puts an enormous strain on the integrity of your message. Basically your message to your wife would be something like "I love you, I want to be with you, I want to work on myself and on our relationship (but I will divorce you if we don't succeed at improving things)". But would that really be an honest message in your case?

In my case this was simpler. My affair was shorter and neither I nor AP had any intentions of developing the affair into a new permanent relationship to replace my marriage. But the picture you paint in OP is that you'd rather divorce and remarry your AP. Day one, start over again. 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Will am I

[heartwhole2]

Oscar, two things can be true at the same time: It wasn't right to have an affair. The marriage is not salvageable.

My husband cheated on me and I'm certainly the first to defend a woman's right not to be cheated on. But what's done is done. You can't undo that now. You can only make a decision based on the potential of your marriage today.

In the aftermath of my husband's affair, we experienced "hysterical bonding." We were desperate for each other. Those feelings aren't enough to rebuild a marriage - it takes work and commitment - but they are certainly a good indication that a fulfilling partnership was an attainable goal. In addition to her raging and controlling, has your wife shown ANY increase in affection since DDay?

6 hours ago, Oscar555 said:

I’m surprised in a way she was even this upset and was sure she would just want a divorce. 

I imagine that your subconscious was aware of this, and you figured it would go one of two ways. Either your affair would be a massive SOS and would inspire her to give the marriage her all - that sex and affection would come back when she realized she could lose you. Or, this would be an exit affair. Your wife would be like, you cheated on me, goodbye! and you'd be asked to leave. You saw it as a win/win, but your wife has gone for option C, neither releasing you nor loving you.

I do think you need to tread carefully because her mental health sounds frail, and I think she needs good supports in place. Does she have friends and family to lean on? I know her feelings are coming out as rage, but remember that that's just a shield that her fears are hiding behind.

For your part, this situation could have been avoided if you had been honest with yourself and your wife. You didn't need to launch a grenade at your marriage to make a change . . . you just had to say some hard words. Again, you can't undo what you've done, but you need to figure out how you allowed yourself to get into this situation so that you don't keep repeating the same mistakes. It's always been true that you don't need to make your wife want a divorce before you're allowed to have one.

[stillafool]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:58 AM, lou65198 said:

Yes I wouldn’t necessarily call it a ‘slip’. Particularly given the progression. Started with ONS. Then predominantly sexual. Latest was the whole shebang. 
I think a one off during a difficult period might be easier to mentally deal with. 
but yes I do agree if anything can be resolved during an attempt at reconciliation it might be better for the children rather than a rash decision to divorce with a lot of hurt and anger involved. If that’s what is ultimately decided upon. 

What about you lou? Don't you deserve better than to live out the years your children are still home being angry and hurt?  I don't know how old they are but there is a very good chance that once they leave the nest and go off to school he will divorce you and be with a woman he loves.  Where will that leave you?  To consider a divorce is not a rash decision when you've been repeatly slapped in the face by his affairs.  He probably does love you because you take care of his kids, home and put up with his mess free of charge.  Again, I'm asking what are you getting out of this marriage?

[stillafool]

Oscar needs to start his own thread and not hijack Lou65198's thread.

[Will am I]

11 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

sex and affection would come back when she realized she could lose you. Or, this would be an exit affair. Your wife would be like, you cheated on me, goodbye! and you'd be asked to leave. You saw it as a win/win, but your wife has gone for option C, neither releasing you nor loving you

That seems to have happened and the status quo must be terrible to be in. It's up to @Oscar555 to force the situation into one of the two outcomes, restoration of the marriage or divorce. Clearly his wife isn't taking the initiative.

5 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Oscar needs to start his own thread and not hijack Lou65198's thread.

I reported the post for moderator attention, split off into a new topic.

[Starswillshine]

3 hours ago, stillafool said:

Oscar needs to start his own thread and not hijack Lou65198's thread.

I believe it was once its own thread and then combined into this one?

[Wiseman2]

20 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

I believe it was once its own thread and then combined into this one?

On 5/28/2022 at 11:56 AM, lou65198 said:

I am 38(f) and husband is 42(m). Been married 10 years. Have two children aged 3 and 6. 

Confusing.

11 hours ago, Oscar555 said:

I am 44(m) and have been with my wife for 18 years. We have 3 kids. 

 

 

[6ix]

13 hours ago, stillafool said:

Oscar needs to start his own thread and not hijack Lou65198's thread.

They are the same person.