Is trying to save my marriage the right thing?

[Jonttu]

OP, I am so sorry for what you are going through.

It feels like he has been given the power to choose, it is actually very degrading and humiliating that he does not make a strong stand. It is as if he genuinely believes, that he can bring his AP to your marriage and give you breadcrumbs. And you were never informed, nor were you consulted about any of this.

Now that you know who AP is, how about showing him the door and telling him to go after her. She can take care of him, his clothes, his bills, his chores, his children etc.

Could it be that some waywards harp about 'for the children's sake' because of knowing that, in case of a divorce they have to be with the children, they can't just let the wifey take care of the kids and pretend to the world that they are sooooo good dads and other bs?

It is very disturbing how he is so concerned about AP's feelings, goes to show that she gets the best of him, his family gets the rest.

Imagine if both you and AP were drowning and he could save only one of you.... who would he save?

He has given you the short stick and showing him the door and telling him to go to AP might actually get you into a place of strenght and power; this time it is you who tells him what to do.

[Allupinnit]

Is he still living at home with you? 

First thing I'd do is make him get a hotel room while he looks for an apartment.  Then consult your lawyer.  He probably had more affairs than you know about - but this was a love affair and you can bet they are still communicating on WhatsApp or some other app that you can't track.  

Affairs rarely end the first time, such is the addictive nature, and now you've got a lovesick H at home moping over his break up that YOU made him initiate.  That would make me sick to my stomach.

 

 

[stillafool]

On 6/1/2022 at 1:24 PM, lou65198 said:

Well I know they were NC after that because of her replies when I messaged her. 

You can't trust anything that comes out of her mouth either.  They have and are workiing together to deceive YOU!  Don't forget that.  She isn't going to bough down to your requests no matter what she's told you or how she sounds.  She's in love with your husband and isn't likely to just give him up because YOU said so. If she gave one crap about you and your marriage she wouldn't be having sex with him in the first place.

Edited June 15, 2022 by stillafool

[lou65198]

4 hours ago, stillafool said:

You can't trust anything that comes out of her mouth either.  They have and are workiing together to deceive YOU!  Don't forget that.  She isn't going to bough down to your requests no matter what she's told you or how she sounds.  She's in love with your husband and isn't likely to just give him up because YOU said so. If she gave one crap about you and your marriage she wouldn't be having sex with him in the first place.

I messaged her from my husband’s phone so she wouldn’t have known it was me. Maybe not the best thing to have done, but for that reason I know they are NC. 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, lou65198 said:

I messaged her from my husband’s phone so she wouldn’t have known it was me. Maybe not the best thing to have done, but for that reason I know they are NC. 

I wish I could tell you no worries but it's normal after D-day and the phone call with wife in tow that the new order is "if you ever get a text or call from this number, just know it is not me but her that is contacting you and act accordingly".    They set up a new way to contact each other, probably a burner phone somewhere.

[BrinnM]

1 hour ago, lou65198 said:

Maybe not the best thing to have done,

Meh, who cares at this point? You don’t owe him/them dignity or anything else. However, the whole thing is forced. He’s doing NC because you’ve found out about his shenanigans, and now he is placating you; and probably not out of love, but bc he wants to avoid to be inconvenienced further.
 

Personally, I wouldn’t be okay with a husband who’s there, but wants to be somewhere else. That would totally turn me off. Your life is short. You really don’t want to put up with this BS. There’s nothing to fight for. If anything, he’s the one who should fight, not you. This constant monitoring & guiding & hand-holding of a “wayward” partner usually leads to nothing. They want to do what they want to do. Just give him enough rope…….. seriously. That’s the advice I would give any friend, family member, and myself. 

[lou65198]

5 hours ago, stillafool said:

I wish I could tell you no worries but it's normal after D-day and the phone call with wife in tow that the new order is "if you ever get a text or call from this number, just know it is not me but her that is contacting you and act accordingly".    They set up a new way to contact each other, probably a burner phone somewhere.

I do think they are fully NC now but I know he did make it clear to her he had feelings for her, can’t say what he said but it was pretty definitive… but whether it was to placate her when it ended or it was true, who knows. 
 

he’s here for now. Trying to make it work. 

[Will am I]

Wow, that’s an unexpected twist. I admire your devotion to your marriage. 

For this to work, a lot needs to happen. The affair(s) need to end, your husband needs to fall out of love with OW, the mental and psychological traits that made him start these affairs in the first place need to be fixed, you need to forgive him and you need to receive a healing of your hurt feelings on a lot of levels.

If the recovery process would stall at any of these steps, this will be a divorce. Could be soon, could be years from now.

Saying this because I believe you should be  prepared that divorce is still a very probable outcome. You should be mentally ready and overcome the fear of divorce.

Only stay in the marriage if you actually want to be with your husband, not because divorce is scary or you dislike the financial or practical consequences.

 

[lou65198]

2 hours ago, Will am I said:

Wow, that’s an unexpected twist. I admire your devotion to your marriage. 

For this to work, a lot needs to happen. The affair(s) need to end, your husband needs to fall out of love with OW, the mental and psychological traits that made him start these affairs in the first place need to be fixed, you need to forgive him and you need to receive a healing of your hurt feelings on a lot of levels.

If the recovery process would stall at any of these steps, this will be a divorce. Could be soon, could be years from now.

Saying this because I believe you should be  prepared that divorce is still a very probable outcome. You should be mentally ready and overcome the fear of divorce.

Only stay in the marriage if you actually want to be with your husband, not because divorce is scary or you dislike the financial or practical consequences.

 

I largely agree with all this, except even if he does ‘fall out of love’ with the OW, which eventually he will due to not seeing her, it doesn’t necessarily mean he will fall back in love with me. And he can’t have been to do what he did. Or to fall or someone else. It doesn’t take away the fact he loves her in the first place. 
 

so I don’t hold out much hope but for now we’re trying to get to a place of relative stability so I can at least think straight once the shock has fully subsided. 

[Will am I]

How you are handling the situation with such strength and devotion, it's admirable.

 

Once you start getting over the initial shock, I think it would be good if you would write a plan for the recovery process. Not really a plan, more like a list. What has to change between the point where you are now and the point where you can be happy and confident in your marriage again? Write it for your eyes only (it's easier). 

The list will be like a mirror of your thoughts. What it will teach you:

* how realistic is the idea of staying in the marriage?

* what should be your contribution to the recovery process?

* what should you expect from your husband in the recovery process?

* if you see the plan failing, in which stage will that most likely fail?

 

I think this could provide clarity and guidance. Also, in case of a negative outcome it may reduce the emotions.

 

Here's one way to go into divorce:

"I'm so devastaed and you hurt me so much and I'm heartbroken and my future is gone and even my past I'm now unsure of and everything in my life turned to jello and I hate you and you're destroying me and you're destroying the kids too and I hate you even more for that"

Here's another:

"Your actions have devasted me, hurt our children and done severe damage to the marriage. I made my best effort to stop your actions, I committed to trying to make it work despite all that you did wrong and I actually drafted a plan of what it would take for us to get past this. Unfortunately the plan reveals to me very clearly that it's not viable. I have given it a lot of thought but I have lost faith. Therefore I see no other option than a divorce. It may have never been my choice to split up, but from our current situation it's my best remaining option."

 

I believe that person B will have a much less stressful experience through the divorce.

[stillafool]

8 hours ago, lou65198 said:

I do think they are fully NC now but I know he did make it clear to her he had feelings for her, can’t say what he said but it was pretty definitive… but whether it was to placate her when it ended or it was true, who knows. 

It was to try to fool you and he did a pretty good job.
 

he’s here for now. Trying to make it work. 

That's where he's always been but the question is why are you still with a man who has cheated on you (3) times that you know of in 10 years and now in love with another woman?  What are you getting out of having him by your side?

[Will am I]

8 minutes ago, stillafool said:

What are you getting out of having him by your side?

Frankly, I wonder about this as well. The history of infidelity is long and severe. The marriage seems damaged beyond repair and there's a big concencus on that.

 

But it's for OP to decide and she indicated that she's in the marital home and trying to make it work. I respect that. If she manages to save this marriage, it would be epic. 

But also if she doesn't. Maybe the extra time and the knowledge of giving it the absolute best effort can make transitioning easier.

 

[stillafool]

OP, did you have a chance to review the thread by "Edith"?  Your situation is almost identical to hers.

[lou65198]

9 minutes ago, stillafool said:

OP, did you have a chance to review the thread by "Edith"?  Your situation is almost identical to hers.

I’ve just read it now. Sounds wholly depressing. 
 

and I think there was a misunderstanding with my previous post. It was basically that I found out he contacted the OW to tell her what they had was real and she wasn’t imagining it. But he’s still staying in the marriage. For however long we continue to try anyway, like I said I don’t hold out much hope right now. 

he says it was just to placate her and end it in the right way. Seems ridiculous to me. Maybe he didn’t want her flying off the handle and revealing anything he didn’t want her to. 

[lou65198]

18 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Frankly, I wonder about this as well. The history of infidelity is long and severe. The marriage seems damaged beyond repair and there's a big concencus on that.

 

But it's for OP to decide and she indicated that she's in the marital home and trying to make it work. I respect that. If she manages to save this marriage, it would be epic. 

But also if she doesn't. Maybe the extra time and the knowledge of giving it the absolute best effort can make transitioning easier.

 

Thank you I appreciate the advice. Sometimes it all just feels like a lot of hard work and I’m losing the sight of the reward of there even is one. 

[Will am I]

25 minutes ago, lou65198 said:

Thank you I appreciate the advice. Sometimes it all just feels like a lot of hard work and I’m losing the sight of the reward of there even is one. 

Take your husband out of the equation. Because of his behaviour he's not entitled to a vote in this. In criminal cases we don't put the defendant on the jury either.

Whether or not you want to work on the marriage is your decision and yours only.

You should only be investing energy into the marriage if that is what you want to do.

 

I believe that is can be beneficial for you to work on the marriage. Apart from the long shot of saving the marriage, there's the considerations that your efforts can help you transition. I believe that taking a bit of time between the schock and the decision to leave can help you find balance. I believe that giving it your very best attempt can help you find peace. These are considerations aimed at your benefit, not your husband's.

But there must be a limit to your efforts. I do not believe that running in circles is beneficial for you. That's why I proposed structuring the process by mapping out the steps between where you are and where you want to be. It will prevent you from trying to fill a botommless pit and provide you with the clarity when you have done enough.

 

"losing the sight of the reward"

There can be two rewards. The less plausible (excuse me for being blunt) would be the healing of your marriage. The more plausible reward is that you would find peace, be able to close this chapter with confidence and tranquility and move on to a new life with your sanity and dignity intact.

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Will am I

[mark clemson]

The only thing that has to happen for a marriage to continue is that neither partner decides to leave it.

That's it. Nothing more or less needs to happen. They can move to different continents, screw everyone BUT their partner, give away each others' pets and cherished belongings, send nasty emails, backstab, scream at each other over the phone, etc, etc, etc.

So, IMO whether you actually want to be in the marriage would be the real question. It CAN continue via inertia alone and some marriages do exactly that.

[heartwhole2]

Lou, I'm just catching up on your story now. I'm so sorry you're in this awful position where you're trying to make a roadmap out of a pile of dirt to see if you have a clear path to reconciliation land.

My kids were 3 and 5 when I discovered my husband's affair, and I was/am a SAHM, so yeah, I've been in your shoes.

We HAVE made it to the other side, back to a deep and fulfilling relationship. I will share some details that I do think helped tip the scales.

I don't think we ever really lost our love for each other. Yes, my husband had feelings for the OW, and that was the basis of the affair. But the affair was not too long (five months) and was mostly long distance. The PA took place over one weekend.

My husband's affair was your classic "time of great stress and change" affair. To my knowledge it was his first and only affair. I developed health problems from pregnancy, and I went on an SSRI that killed my libido (I kept up sex at historical levels, but he complained that I didn't seem into it). We had young kids. He received a large promotion at work (research shows the more a man makes, the more likely he'll have an affair). He happened to meet a woman through friends; the friends left and he spent a few hours chatting with the woman. They kept in touch and then she told him she was falling in love with him. (Her sibling had met a separated person with kids and then gotten married, and she apparently imagined the same thing happening to her.)

Like you mentioned, during the affair I could just tell something was off. My husband really seemed to be trying to contrive situations to paint me as the villain. Now I like to think I'm pretty smart, so I just kept being like, "Huh? I don't get it. That's not what I'm doing. Let's find a compromise." For example, I overheard him on the phone telling someone else he might be traveling to (unbeknownst to me) OW's country in two weeks. I was like, "Hey, did I hear you right? You might go to [country far away]????" and then he was like, "FINE! If you're going to make a big deal about I JUST WON'T GO!" stomp stomp tantrum tantrum. And I was like, "What? You're the one being weird and making international travel plans without talking to your spouse. I'm just trying to find out the details. We can make this work if it's important to you." And he said, no, fine, he just wouldn't go. Obviously he was feeling guilty, and having the trip come under my scrutiny was too much for him. He wanted to go, for sure, but he would have had to sneak around behind our mutual friends' backs to be with the OW. And he wasn't completely able to justify and compartmentalize the affair to himself.

So I think in attempting reconciliation, it was some comfort to me to know that he was not super comfortable lying and cheating. After DDay, it took maybe a week or two of moping about "losing someone he'd grown close to" and after that he was a lovesick puppy wanting to be close to me again. He even said, "Wow! I can't believe I don't miss her more! It's like we're on our second honeymoon!" as though I would think this was a compliment and not super duper lame, lol.

I don't know if this is a rational response, but I think it's very natural . . . I really needed to be wooed. I needed certain things to be righted. He ruined our 10th anniversary trip, so I wanted a do-over. We pretty much immediately bought a vacation home, which I know is such a cliche, but it helped me feel like, ok, he's putting this money into this illiquid asset instead of into a divorce. He's committing to spending lots of time with me and the kids. He hemmed and hawed about therapy for the first 6-9 months, but when he finally started it, he really got a lot out of it, and he still goes today (7 years after DDay). He told me the other day, "I don't like to talk about what I say in therapy, but just know that I was singing your praises a lot." Yeah bud, of course you were.

While I would never ever say that an affair is a good thing, I think it was a "make or break" catalyst for us. It showed us we wanted to stay together. It required we bring our best selves to the table. The threat to our marriage cemented our desire to protect it. It made us desperate for each other - hence the "second honeymoon" comment.

I think we always had a pretty good marriage. We were always in love, always compatible. We hit a rough patch, and instead of turning inwards he turned outwards. And that's something I can either forgive, or not. I don't have to. I was struggling through no fault of my own and he just added to it. But I can understand the very human element of his affair . . . the flattery, the excitement, the escape.

So that's my story. In your case, I would wonder how you could reasonably trust he won't be "affair guy" going forward. He seemed to have no problem being affair guy before? You certainly didn't deserve to be cheated on, and the least he can do now is be desperate to keep you. You deserve to be cherished! Don't ever forget that. On DDay I looked my husband right in the eyes and I said, "Look, I could find someone else. I'm the whole package and lots of people would want to be with me. It sounds like you don't deserve me anymore . . . like you and OW deserve each other." I put it on him to prove to ME that he deserved me. It wasn't my fault he fancied himself at liberty to try out other partners for size. If he didn't want what he had at home, he was welcome to leave! I wasn't going to beg. I'm so glad for that protective rage that my psyche drew upon. I think it helped us skip a lot of fiddle faddle where he viewed himself as some prize with two women desperate to have him. No dude! You are welcome to be my life partner. That's why I married you. But I didn't sign up for the rest of this nonsense. That's not what marriage is! Are you in, or are you out?

It's OK if you're not at the rage stage yet. You are doing your very best in a tragedy of his making. But please remember what you deserve. If you want to stay for the kids, that's OK. But it's also OK to want someone to be lovesick for you. That's why you got married. If he changed the rules, you don't have to stay.

[ExpatInItaly]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:30 AM, lou65198 said:

it doesn’t necessarily mean he will fall back in love with me.

I hate to say it, but this man has cheated on you throughout your marriage, so I don't think he ever really has been in love with you. 

He might get back to maintaining the status quo with you, but he is just not invested in his heart. That isn't something the absence of this OW will fix. He will just find another in the future. 

[Will am I]

Two very different perspectives. 

I find it inspiring to read about a marriage surviving an affair. I think it's exceptional, but nevertheless a valuable perspective for people dealing with infidelity (whether as unfaithful spouse, betrayed spouse or affair partner). A lesson that slipping into infidelity does not automatically void the marriage of all its value. A lesson which I hope can make people reconsider their actions and turn back.

 

For OP, I agree with the post directly above, the situation is pretty dire. But nevertheless I think she should (for a while) pursue the path to reconciliation. Even if her marriage proves unsalvageable, it may make the transitioning less difficult. Stepping out of a marriage when you recovered somewhat from the shock, found your balance again and know that you give it your absolute best shot, I figure there's closure in that. Stepping out of a marriage when you're in the middle of a hurricane of pain, suffering, desperation and rage...not so much closure. 

 

7 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

killed my libido (I kept up sex at historical levels, but he complained that I didn't seem into it)

Male perspective: my wife and I have done that and in retrospect I think this was a bad idea. It has hurt my feelings in more than one way (not to mention it may have hurt her feelings too). First, it made me feel guilty for taking something that I shouldn't have taken; sex should be without feelings of guilt. Second, it made me feel like my wife wasn't into me. I guess it's OK if she's not into me all the time, but being physical really emphasized that feeling to me. Third, it made me feel like my wife had given something to me against her will and would need to be compensated. I prefer to stick to a strict "ladies first" policy now.

 

7 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

research shows the more a man makes, the more likely he'll have an affair

I'm a man, I slipped into an EA, and my income is around the 90th percentile in a wealthy country. So I totally recognize this.

I do wonder what causes it most. There must be several contributing factors but I haven't figured out where the biggest risk comes from. Am I most at risk because the money gives me more feelings of entitlement? Or is the bigger factor that it gives me more freedom and possibilities to spend something outside the marriage without my wife noticing? Or is it a factor that money makes people more attractive and hence provides me with more opportinity?

I would hate for #1 to be the biggest factor. I hate it when people behave entitled. I already feel like a jerk for what I did and that would only make it worse.

[ExpatInItaly]

5 hours ago, Will am I said:

I find it inspiring to read about a marriage surviving an affair.

I don't think the same can be said when it's not just one but multiple affairs, personallly. OP's husband is a serial cheater. In my mind, there is not much to admire about standing by someone who has repeatedly stomped all over that trust and commitment. 

5 hours ago, Will am I said:

A lesson that slipping into infidelity does not automatically void the marriage of all its value.

Not necessarily, but I certainly question how much value a serial cheater places on the marriage to begin with. This isn't a slip into infidelity. It's repeated decpetion and dishonesty, spanning years. It's a marriage built on a false premise. 

[lou65198]

Yes I wouldn’t necessarily call it a ‘slip’. Particularly given the progression. Started with ONS. Then predominantly sexual. Latest was the whole shebang. 
I think a one off during a difficult period might be easier to mentally deal with. 
but yes I do agree if anything can be resolved during an attempt at reconciliation it might be better for the children rather than a rash decision to divorce with a lot of hurt and anger involved. If that’s what is ultimately decided upon. 

[Will am I]

Not only your children, you too.

Even if it doesn’t work out in the end. More closure.

[lou65198]

37 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Not only your children, you too.

Even if it doesn’t work out in the end. More closure.

Yes agreed. He says that he loves me but I think it’s just the guilt talking, or he’s confusing the feelings of guilt and shame with love, but it’s just because he feels bad about what’s happened and having been caught… 

[BaileyB]

Ineed, when someone has cheated repeatedly during the entire marriage, I personally would say that is an abusive thing to do to their spouse. And, when one is in an abusive relationship the answer is to leave the relationship - not to try and change the abusive partner or “fix” the abusive relationship. Leave. One should not stay in a relationship where they are repeatedly respected and hurt by their partner. My humble opinion, the “admirable” thing in this situation is to find the courage and self respect to say - “I won’t allow you to disrespect or hurt me any more.”

Edited June 18, 2022 by BaileyB