elaine567 Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 13 hours ago, ZA Dater said: I am slim and athletic, that is he bare minimum looks requirement which I do not feel is unreasonable. You are apparently on a continuous loop, you think because you are "slim and athletic" then you are entitled to a slim and athletic woman... Wrong! The market says otherwise, these slim and athletic women have their own ideas of who they want to be with... Unfortunately few slim and athletic women have decided to choose you... You know and we know that reality, yet you keep harping on about it, as if it is a surprise to you... Slim and athletic only ticks one box, these women obviously want more than just slim and athletic... 12 hours ago, dramafreezone said: If you can't deliver what your clientele wants, that's a you problem, and your responsibility to remedy. It's not the client's problem, it's not the problem of those that can give them what they want. ^^^ this. 2
basil67 Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 14 hours ago, ZA Dater said: Am I being unrealistic to expect a date to take some sort of interest in me? Sometimes, one can arrive on a date and immediately do a mental calculation as to how long it's reasonable to stick around till they can escape. The people who feel this way aren't going to make an effort to get to know their date. 1
chillii Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, ZA Dater said: Yeah sure. I admire your honesty and I admire you belief. However, the reality is yes I suppose if one enjoys going out drinking and that apparent "fun'" then I am sure that experience is readily available. At least you and I agree dating is purely transactional. Irrespective what I had to offer I am not sexy and there is always someone more FUN nearby which means well I just nowhere. cancel Edited May 23, 2021 by chillii
dramafreezone Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, ZA Dater said: Your optimism is amazing. I am not being optimistic nor am I an optimist. I'm practical. I strive for pragmaticism. I wouldn't ever compromise what I believe to be the truth for the sake of being optimistic. I do have the reinforcing experience of having had girlfriends and interested women. The thing is I used to be like you somewhat, I never saw any positive experiences that I had in the past, which were evidence that I was desirable. Instead I focused on what I didn't have, and when you do that you're bound to be discouraged. There's always someone with more, doesn't matter how much you accrue of anything, be it more muscles, more friends, more women, more money. If you focus on the people that have more you will never be satisfied. Also, no one has it as good as you think they do. Most of us want for something. Dan Bilzerian looks like he's always having a blast with all of his money and women right? He has bad days, ok? He has days where he just doesn't want to deal with it. He has days where he feels inadequate. You think he doesn't know that all of those women wouldn't have anything to do with him if he didn't have that money? That no doubt eats at him from time to time. All of us have insecurities. So you're not special in that regard. What you don't think about is that there are men out there who are shorter, fatter with less money than you have, and somewhere in the world one of them has an incredibly beautiful woman that by some weird circumstance finds him attractive. You never look at a couple and wonder "how did he do it?" You work in this strict framework where you think women only go for the rich, the tallest, the strongest, the most charismatic, yet if you look hard enough, you can find a couple that bucks all of those trends. So how did THAT guy do it? That's who gives me confidence to do it, if he can do it, I dang sure can too. Focus on your past positive experiences. If you've had dates, you've had opportunities, you've had attraction from women. If you've had one date with an attractive woman you can no longer say that you are not attractive to anyone. And this doesn't even include women that maybe had an interest in you that you didn't even know about. Yes, that's a thing, every woman that finds you attractive is not going to let you know it. There may be a number of reasons why they don't pursue something with you, either they're already with someone, they're fearful of you rejecting them if they put themselves out there, or they just got a feel for your negative vibe and decided against it. You think oh if I just had this one girlfriend that would fix me. It wouldn't. One woman cannot undo 20+ years of damage. Doesn't work like that. Additionally, you would not be able to keep her, because those old reinforcing beliefs of you being inadequate would eventually drive her away.. Edited May 23, 2021 by dramafreezone
Author ZA Dater Posted May 23, 2021 Author Posted May 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, dramafreezone said: I am not being optimistic nor am I an optimist. I'm practical. I strive for pragmaticism. I wouldn't ever compromise what I believe to be the truth for the sake of being optimistic. I do have the reinforcing experience of having had girlfriends and interested women. The thing is I used to be like you somewhat, I never saw any positive experiences that I had in the past, which were evidence that I was desirable. Instead I focused on what I didn't have, and when you do that you're bound to be discouraged. There's always someone with more, doesn't matter how much you accrue of anything, be it more muscles, more friends, more women, more money. If you focus on the people that have more you will never be satisfied. Also, no one has it as good as you think they do. Most of us want for something. Dan Bilzerian looks like he's always having a blast with all of his money and women right? He has bad days, ok? He has days where he just doesn't want to deal with it. He has days where he feels inadequate. You think he doesn't know that all of those women wouldn't have anything to do with him if he didn't have that money? That no doubt eats at him from time to time. All of us have insecurities. So you're not special in that regard. What you don't think about is that there are men out there who are shorter, fatter with less money than you have, and somewhere in the world one of them has an incredibly beautiful woman that by some weird circumstance finds him attractive. You never look at a couple and wonder "how did he do it?" You work in this strict framework where you think women only go for the rich, the tallest, the strongest, the most charismatic, yet if you look hard enough, you can find a couple that bucks all of those trends. So how did THAT guy do it? That's who gives me confidence to do it, if he can do it, I dang sure can too. Focus on your past positive experiences. If you've had dates, you've had opportunities, you've had attraction from women. If you've had one date with an attractive woman you can no longer say that you are not attractive to anyone. And this doesn't even include women that maybe had an interest in you that you didn't even know about. Yes, that's a thing, every woman that finds you attractive is not going to let you know it. There may be a number of reasons why they don't pursue something with you, either they're already with someone, they're fearful of you rejecting them if they put themselves out there, or they just got a feel for your negative vibe and decided against it. You think oh if I just had this one girlfriend that would fix me. It wouldn't. One woman cannot undo 20+ years of damage. Doesn't work like that. Additionally, you would not be able to keep her, because those old reinforcing beliefs of you being inadequate would eventually drive her away.. In % terms we are talking tiny percentages. Sure, I have seen this and every single time I have worked out how they did it, I need just go through my checklist and sooner or later one of those points is ticked. These trends are very difficult to buck, other posters here have said as much many times. Sure, I used to love to believe "if he can I can too" until I realised what folly this actually is. It was exactly this which kept me going with the one lady I really did find attractive overall, guess what...I lost out for exactly one of the reasons on my checklist. Its great to believe in things, really it is, I have seen first hand how its possible to massively improve people by simply encouraging them and believing in them, offer some guidance and they can do much to improve, unfortunately dating never works like that for me because nobody invests anything when they can get instant returns with someone else. If it did being inexperience would not matter, which based on Elaine's opinion it does matter a lot. The best past experiences for me have ALL been friend zone experiences, ever single one of them so while I get slammed for this here, is it not normal to rather go where you are likely to get the most positive experience? I am not particularly worried about going up against the super successful guy IF I am actually in with a tiny chance but most of the time this is not worth it as the odds never favour me so no I do not see myself as inferior I just know what I offer is not attractive.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 23, 2021 Author Posted May 23, 2021 6 hours ago, elaine567 said: You are apparently on a continuous loop, you think because you are "slim and athletic" then you are entitled to a slim and athletic woman... Wrong! The market says otherwise, these slim and athletic women have their own ideas of who they want to be with... Unfortunately few slim and athletic women have decided to choose you... You know and we know that reality, yet you keep harping on about it, as if it is a surprise to you... Slim and athletic only ticks one box, these women obviously want more than just slim and athletic... ^^^ this. Well that's fine then. But to suddenly expect me to find people attractive I do not is a stretch too far. Friend of mine moans he has 3 or 4 different dates a week, all with people he finds attractive.....point being there are some people who really do very well at dating for all the predictable reasons so yes the market is very clear in what it wants.
dramafreezone Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: In % terms we are talking tiny percentages. Sure, I have seen this and every single time I have worked out how they did it, I need just go through my checklist and sooner or later one of those points is ticked. These trends are very difficult to buck, other posters here have said as much many times. Sure, I used to love to believe "if he can I can too" until I realised what folly this actually is. It was exactly this which kept me going with the one lady I really did find attractive overall, guess what...I lost out for exactly one of the reasons on my checklist. Its great to believe in things, really it is, I have seen first hand how its possible to massively improve people by simply encouraging them and believing in them, offer some guidance and they can do much to improve, unfortunately dating never works like that for me because nobody invests anything when they can get instant returns with someone else. If it did being inexperience would not matter, which based on Elaine's opinion it does matter a lot. The best past experiences for me have ALL been friend zone experiences, ever single one of them so while I get slammed for this here, is it not normal to rather go where you are likely to get the most positive experience? I am not particularly worried about going up against the super successful guy IF I am actually in with a tiny chance but most of the time this is not worth it as the odds never favour me so no I do not see myself as inferior I just know what I offer is not attractive. Ah, so we've gone from impossible to very difficult. We're making progress at least. You can call it folly but it's observable fact. There are men with less money that have pretty women. There are men with worse looks that have pretty women. Sure you have to make up the difference somewhere else, that's how anything works in this world. You want the best but you don't feel you have to offer anything but minimal effort. Honestly I see a real lack of respect of women from you. You lost out because you're weren't willing to improve. The issue is not a lack of attraction. Attraction just gets you an opportunity, you have to bring it home from there. You don't have a dang thing in the bag just because you've attracted her. I vividly remember a woman during my speed dating days that gave me screw-me eyes right off the bat. For me that's rare but I'll never forget it. I proceeded to talk about politics for some weird reason and that was like dumping cold water on the whole thing. That was my fault, because I could see her attraction in a way that's not normally apparent, and I talked myself right out of her liking me. And she was fairly attractive, I kick myself thinking about it sometimes. You don't take any responsibilty for the actions that you take when you're out on these dates. You think she went on the date and then decided that you don't have enough money for her, or you're not good looking enough. That's BS and doesn't make any sense. You failed to make it a fun and light conversation. That's why you got friendzoned. The friendzone is where you got when you had a shot, and then you get demoted because of something you did. It's not because of what she saw initially. If she saw nothing but friend potential from the beginning most likely you wouldn't have even gotten the date. And it's not up to women to "invest" in you. Holy crap dude, why don't you "invest" in women you don't like because they're overweight? Give in the gym with them so that they lose some weight, then you'll have someone you're attracted to. That's what you're asking from women, to give you a chance so that you can prove to them that you're worthy. See how unfair you're being in this whole thing? You feel entitiled to special treatment that you don't afford to women. The more and more I hear from you, the more entitlement I hear. None of us deserves a chance, or understanding from other people. We get what we earn.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 23, 2021 Author Posted May 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, dramafreezone said: Ah, so we've gone from impossible to very difficult. We're making progress at least. You can call it folly but it's observable fact. There are men with less money that have pretty women. There are men with worse looks that have pretty women. Sure you have to make up the difference somewhere else, that's how anything works in this world. You want the best but you don't feel you have to offer anything but minimal effort. Honestly I see a real lack of respect of women from you. You lost out because you're weren't willing to improve. The issue is not a lack of attraction. Attraction just gets you an opportunity, you have to bring it home from there. You don't have a dang thing in the bag just because you've attracted her. I vividly remember a woman during my speed dating days that gave me screw-me eyes right off the bat. For me that's rare but I'll never forget it. I proceeded to talk about politics for some weird reason and that was like dumping cold water on the whole thing. That was my fault, because I could see her attraction in a way that's not normally apparent, and I talked myself right out of her liking me. And she was fairly attractive, I kick myself thinking about it sometimes. You don't take any responsibilty for the actions that you take when you're out on these dates. You think she went on the date and then decided that you don't have enough money for her, or you're not good looking enough. That's BS and doesn't make any sense. You failed to make it a fun and light conversation. That's why you got friendzoned. The friendzone is where you got when you had a shot, and then you get demoted because of something you did. It's not because of what she saw initially. If she saw nothing but friend potential from the beginning most likely you wouldn't have even gotten the date. And it's not up to women to "invest" in you. Holy crap dude, why don't you "invest" in women you don't like because they're overweight? Give in the gym with them so that they lose some weight, then you'll have someone you're attracted to. That's what you're asking from women, to give you a chance so that you can prove to them that you're worthy. See how unfair you're being in this whole thing? You feel entitiled to special treatment that you don't afford to women. The more and more I hear from you, the more entitlement I hear. None of us deserves a chance, or understanding from other people. We get what we earn. All very good and well. Thanks. Sorry I must help them improve, oh sorry I forgot this entire thing is totally one sided, ladies need to improve at nothing, men must beg and grovel and line up like cattle at an auction. Sorry that has zero appeal for me. I must be willing to improve but women can be static? Am I getting that right? Improve, improve what, I did everything I knew with the lady I spent a lot of time with, guess what it counted for NOTHING. K, I did everything I knew there too, heck I then went on a multi year improvement drive and guess what, my odds are exactly the same. You can accuse me all you want of not improving but that is simply not the case. Sorry but I find it truly pathetic that someone will dislike you because of a point of discussion, that is beyond petty so for what its worth I think you missed out on nothing there. Let me give you some advice, you cannot look back, you made the best decision at the time and yes I can go back 20+ years and wish I had done tons of things differently, if I had I would not be a 37yo date less virgin with no real prospects.Cant cry over split milk. No, women offer me no special treatment but I am also not going to beg at their feet either. I have a massive problem with the underlined, because its patently not true, unlike some I know I do no go out there to screw anyone and do whatever it takes to accomplish that and once that's done throw them aside like yesterdays news. I hear about this a lot to the point where I actually do not spend time with those people anymore and for what its worth, this tactic seems to work really well for them, guess everyone likes a good time hey or maybe this is what is meant by being "fun". One of the things I do pride myself on is having manners and being a gentleman. Really I love this make up for this with that......fact remains why, why would anyone want that when they can can have all of it? I certainly would not be interested in someone I did not find attractive irrespective how smart they were and yes, once again I had someone like this besotted with me. There is the thing, you are lucky and most are I think that you get to experience mutual attraction, ME, the only way I can derive that is going the friend zone because at least then I am attractive as a friend.
dramafreezone Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 Quote I must be willing to improve but women can be static? Am I getting that right? Same thing applies to women. Women have difficulties. Just go on the dating pages and you can see the hundreds of threads of women with their struggles with men. They are not the same struggles that men have because guess what, men and women are different. You may hear women say that a guy just uses them for sex and you think they have it made. But you know how you say that women should want you for more than your money? Well that's how women feel about sex, you should want them for more than that. So how do you think they feel when a guy dates them, has sex with them and then just discards them? They're incredibly hurt, like you would be if a woman dated you, you took her shopping and then she ghosted you afterward. All of this to day, women have a lot of struggles with men, even if they're incredibly beautiful, they always have to worry about men that just use them for what they look like. So yes women have to improve too. Quote Improve, improve what, I did everything I knew with the lady I spent a lot of time with, guess what it counted for NOTHING. K, I did everything I knew there too, heck I then went on a multi year improvement drive and guess what, my odds are exactly the same. You can accuse me all you want of not improving but that is simply not the case. Whatever you did is not enough. That means you have to learn more. There shouldn't ever be a point where you think there's nothing more to learn. Quote Sorry but I find it truly pathetic that someone will dislike you because of a point of discussion, that is beyond petty so for what its worth I think you missed out on nothing there. Let me give you some advice, you cannot look back, you made the best decision at the time and yes I can go back 20+ years and wish I had done tons of things differently, if I had I would not be a 37yo date less virgin with no real prospects.Cant cry over split milk. She didn't dislike me. She just no longer wanted to have sex with me. It's because I failed to do what I was supposed to do on a date, which is make the date fun. She didn't come on the date to learn about politics, she could've just tuned into C-Span for that or stayed at home searching the internet. I didn't make the best decision at the time, I made a poor one. Making a poor decision because you don't know any better doesn't make it a good decision or excuse the decision. It's not her job to understand that I may have been underexperienced at the time. People could get out of a lot of prison time if that rationale held any weight. Looking back helps you make better decisions, and reinforces that you had opportunities and that you will in the future. If you don't learn from mistakes you'll repeat them. Quote I have a massive problem with the underlined, because its patently not true, unlike some I know I do no go out there to screw anyone and do whatever it takes to accomplish that and once that's done throw them aside like yesterdays news. I hear about this a lot to the point where I actually do not spend time with those people anymore and for what its worth, this tactic seems to work really well for them, guess everyone likes a good time hey or maybe this is what is meant by being "fun". One of the things I do pride myself on is having manners and being a gentleman. Just my opinion but I think the manners and being a gentleman is because you think these things should curry you favor with people. If this is just truly in your nature you don't seek reward or credit for it. Quote Really I love this make up for this with that......fact remains why, why would anyone want that when they can can have all of it? I certainly would not be interested in someone I did not find attractive irrespective how smart they were and yes, once again I had someone like this besotted with me. There is the thing, you are lucky and most are I think that you get to experience mutual attraction, ME, the only way I can derive that is going the friend zone because at least then I am attractive as a friend. Very few people "get it all" and anyone that does is almost certainly not in your orbit. You just look at people and you see the appearances and see them as having everything. It only takes one amazing quality to garner attraction from women. Outside of that, if you're not great at any single thing, you have to get better at a bunch of different things. We all have gifts and weaknesses, we have to do the best with what we have. Those that do well don't look at what others have and just give up, we hone what we do have to the best of our abilities and let the chips fall where they may. And for us, we realize that this is a never ending goal, self-improvement doesn't have a finish line.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 23, 2021 Author Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, dramafreezone said: Same thing applies to women. Women have difficulties. Just go on the dating pages and you can see the hundreds of threads of women with their struggles with men. They are not the same struggles that men have because guess what, men and women are different. You may hear women say that a guy just uses them for sex and you think they have it made. But you know how you say that women should want you for more than your money? Well that's how women feel about sex, you should want them for more than that. So how do you think they feel when a guy dates them, has sex with them and then just discards them? They're incredibly hurt, like you would be if a woman dated you, you took her shopping and then she ghosted you afterward. All of this to day, women have a lot of struggles with men, even if they're incredibly beautiful, they always have to worry about men that just use them for what they look like. So yes women have to improve too. Whatever you did is not enough. That means you have to learn more. There shouldn't ever be a point where you think there's nothing more to learn. She didn't dislike me. She just no longer wanted to have sex with me. It's because I failed to do what I was supposed to do on a date, which is make the date fun. She didn't come on the date to learn about politics, she could've just tuned into C-Span for that or stayed at home searching the internet. I didn't make the best decision at the time, I made a poor one. Making a poor decision because you don't know any better doesn't make it a good decision or excuse the decision. It's not her job to understand that I may have been underexperienced at the time. People could get out of a lot of prison time if that rationale held any weight. Looking back helps you make better decisions, and reinforces that you had opportunities and that you will in the future. If you don't learn from mistakes you'll repeat them. Just my opinion but I think the manners and being a gentleman is because you think these things should curry you favor with people. If this is just truly in your nature you don't seek reward or credit for it. Very few people "get it all" and anyone that does is almost certainly not in your orbit. You just look at people and you see the appearances and see them as having everything. It only takes one amazing quality to garner attraction from women. Outside of that, if you're not great at any single thing, you have to get better at a bunch of different things. We all have gifts and weaknesses, we have to do the best with what we have. Those that do well don't look at what others have and just give up, we hone what we do have to the best of our abilities and let the chips fall where they may. And for us, we realize that this is a never ending goal, self-improvement doesn't have a finish line. Oh well, guess the game really is not for me then because the improvements made clearly are pretty pointless. Oh well there is always the friend zone where I get most of what I want some of the time without the need to think about each and every word I say lest she may not like one particular phrase and find that off putting. With respect I'd rather think about other things, if women are so fickle them yea this is not for me. Give me someone really attractive who I can have a good chat with and that is just about enough. As for learning, there I believe you are totally wrong, there is nothing to learn as not critique is given so you can then spend days guessing why this happened and why that did not happen while miss just gets on with meeting the next date for dinner leaving you none the wiser. I can honestly say I learnt nothing on dates as to how to improve, why would any women help a guy, when there are endless guys who do not need help. I feel for ladies who get used by men and discarded but perhaps just like I apparently need to learn perhaps they too need to learn but you know they fun happy go lucky guy, with the cheesy smile and the fun is me, well I mean he is a winner, that quiet thoughtful guy, no he is not fun, well I can tell you this if I ever was lucky enough to date someone I really liked I'd do my best to hang onto them. Nothing I do is designed to curry favour with people, its totally pointless do that, not to mention fake. Lastly, few people ever really hurt me, few comments really bother me and even fewer people get under my skin, simply because I when it comes to dating I just expect the worst and mostly I am never ever surprised. No, based on what you say I think I am better off with an arms length friend, at least then I do not need to jump through hoop after hoop in vain that perhaps I might get picked over someone else. A friend has a use at least. What can I improve, I really do not know, I wake up each day and frankly I am happy with the person I am, the only going being to be the best version of that rather than re invent the wheel. I know lots of people who date exactly the sort of the people they find attractive, oddly I know NOBODY who dates people they do no find attractive, strange that. I'd rather aspire to be that even if I never get there. Edited May 23, 2021 by ZA Dater
dramafreezone Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: Oh well, guess the game really is not for me then because the improvements made clearly are pretty pointless. Oh well there is always the friend zone where I get most of what I want some of the time without the need to think about each and every word I say lest she may not like one particular phrase and find that off putting. With respect I'd rather think about other things, if women are so fickle them yea this is not for me. Give me someone really attractive who I can have a good chat with and that is just about enough. As for learning, there I believe you are totally wrong, there is nothing to learn as not critique is given so you can then spend days guessing why this happened and why that did not happen while miss just gets on with meeting the next date for dinner leaving you none the wiser. I can honestly say I learnt nothing on dates as to how to improve, why would any women help a guy, when there are endless guys who do not need help. I feel for ladies who get used by men and discarded but perhaps just like I apparently need to learn perhaps they too need to learn but you know they fun happy go lucky guy, with the cheesy smile and the fun is me, well I mean he is a winner, that quiet thoughtful guy, no he is not fun, well I can tell you this if I ever was lucky enough to date someone I really liked I'd do my best to hang onto them. Nothing I do is designed to curry favour with people, its totally pointless do that, not to mention fake. Lastly, few people ever really hurt me, few comments really bother me and even fewer people get under my skin, simply because I when it comes to dating I just expect the worst and mostly I am never ever surprised. No, based on what you say I think I am better off with an arms length friend, at least then I do not need to jump through hoop after hoop in vain that perhaps I might get picked over someone else. A friend has a use at least. What can I improve, I really do not know, I wake up each day and frankly I am happy with the person I am, the only going being to be the best version of that rather than re invent the wheel. I know lots of people who date exactly the sort of the people they find attractive, oddly I know NOBODY who dates people they do no find attractive, strange that. I'd rather aspire to be that even if I never get there. This is just a lot of unwillingness to improve, learn, or accept that what you believe is fundamentally flawed. You have a belief system that you stick to unflinchingly, even when it's not working out for you. For you it's more comforting for you to be right than to realize that you have just believed the wrong things for so long. 1
Author ZA Dater Posted May 23, 2021 Author Posted May 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, dramafreezone said: This is just a lot of unwillingness to improve, learn, or accept that what you believe is fundamentally flawed. You have a belief system that you stick to unflinchingly, even when it's not working out for you. For you it's more comforting for you to be right than to realize that you have just believed the wrong things for so long. That is fine because I am yet to be proven comprehensively wrong. I am happy to be proven wrong but guess what its never happened, it does not matter how many dating apps I go on, how many different pictures, how many different bios I simply attract the SAME people. From this I have learnt I am ugly, so I suppose it was not a complete waste after all. People will believe what they experience, if someone experiences only bad they will believe in that I have seen this countless times in life, countless times with people who have nothing, think they can accomplish nothing, people who get kicked around berated, mocked and made to feel like dirt. Guess what those people can do things, they can rise up, they can improve BUT they need better OUTCOMES to believe that can succeed, one good experience can change many a life for the better. For whatever reason I have never experienced good dating experience BUT I have experienced MORE value to me in being helpful to others and being that "useful" person they confide it. I do not feel attractive, why because there is never mutual attraction, I can do whatever I like clothes and look wise, it makes no difference, I'd rather walk around in what I feel good in than what I think women will like. Oh no I did believe wrong, I believed that there was value in being oneself and not acting like some show pony desperately trying to impress. I believed there was merit in forging ones own path and not walking with the crowd, I believed there was value in being true to ones own beliefs and I mostly believed in the an inherent good in ever single person but stupidly this was also accompanied by the belief I would not be disadvantaged due to inexperience, how stupid that was to believe. There is no dating manual, there is is no assurance of success, there is no do this to get that. Sure somehow bend over backward to make up for that but what do you use to make up for, I cant make up for 20 years of no success. All I want is to experience something good and if the only good is friend zone then well so be it because that's all I useful for.
elaine567 Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: I can honestly say I learnt nothing on dates as to how to improve So on this coffee date for instance, did you not ask yourself exactly why did she friend zone you? Asked yourself what you could have done to avoid it? Did a bit of a post mortem on the things you said, the topics raised, her reactions, your reactions. Considered how you could have done things a bit better... No?
SumGuy Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 2 hours ago, ZA Dater said: ....People will believe what they experience,... To an extent, but much more powerful is the psychology is people experience what they believe. All is filtered through belief, things that don't fit are avoided, minimized, denied, or turn on their head; things that fit are never missed and each is elevated to the greatest evidentiary weight. Assumptions and supposition that fit with the belief are never questioned, and there is but on lens. And this is the tame version...let alone out right fabrication to support ones belief...such fabrication must be right because to believe otherwise means to question the belief. Some disciplines teach you otherwise, some disciplines reinforce such cognitive bias. Let alone...“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” 2
Weezy1973 Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 39 minutes ago, SumGuy said: To an extent, but much more powerful is the psychology is people experience what they believe. This is it exactly. You’re seeing the world through the filter of your beliefs. And everybody in these threads, who has had differing levels of success is pointing out that your beliefs at minimum are keeping you from achieving any success and in many ways are wrong. Yet you continue to cling onto them for dear life. Even if your experiences did lead to your beliefs, they are still extremely detrimental in you moving forward in this realm. Therapy is essentially a ways to challenge our own limiting beliefs. I suspect that’s why you dismiss it so handily as you do most of the advice here.
dramafreezone Posted May 23, 2021 Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SumGuy said: 3 hours ago, ZA Dater said: ....People will believe what they experience,... Those with anorexia believe that they weigh too much despite all evidence to the contrary. We've seen grown adults starve themselves to below 100 lbs and they cannot shake this inner belief that they have to lose more, even if they've never been overweight a day in their life. Is that due to their experience? We don't have to look any further than that to see how profoundly maladaptive thinking plays on a person's psyche. And @SumGuy I know that was ZA's quote but didn't want to go back and quote him directly. Edited May 23, 2021 by dramafreezone
elaine567 Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, ZA Dater said: Improve, improve what, I did everything I knew with the lady I spent a lot of time with, guess what it counted for NOTHING. K, I did everything I knew there too, heck I then went on a multi year improvement drive and guess what, my odds are exactly the same. You can accuse me all you want of not improving but that is simply not the case. What exactly did you improve? Your flirting, your kissing, your seduction technique...? I think not. I guess you maybe improved your ability to be a friend, but not your ability to be a lover. That is the fundamental problem. Until you can act like a potential lover then even the most desperate woman will turn you down. Women who are actively dating have enough friends, they don't go on dating apps to acquire any more. We get posts all the time from women on this forum, "He doesn't touch me, he hasn't tried to kiss me, is he interested in me at all?" Answer - likely no. Unless you indicate clear and positive romantic interest via flirting and some appropriate physical contact, then you head straight into the friendzone. Few woman looking for a bf really want to waste time with a guy who shows no signs of wanting to be her lover. K had a bf, the yoga teacher had a crush on another guy, and the widow was way out of your league, so all essentially unavailable and not interested in you. You set yourself up to fail from day one. (Had we not intervened, you were about to add the coffee date girl to that list...) Your "improvement" was completely lost on these women as they were never interested in seeing you in that way. A very experienced guy could maybe have enticed K away from her bf, turned the yoga teacher around and attracted the widow, but you had essentially no hope. With some elementary skiing skills learned on the nursery slopes, you keep tackling black runs, with the inevitable disastrous results... Edited May 24, 2021 by elaine567 1
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 15 hours ago, elaine567 said: So on this coffee date for instance, did you not ask yourself exactly why did she friend zone you? Asked yourself what you could have done to avoid it? Did a bit of a post mortem on the things you said, the topics raised, her reactions, your reactions. Considered how you could have done things a bit better... No? I did actually do all of that and to be honest I was happy with the topics, happy with the way the date went, I left awkwardness mostly at home this time and it was actually quite an eays going, light coffee date with lots of laughing from her. Just zero attraction I guess and well when I look at her social media I still do not understand why she even bothered to meet me.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 12 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: This is it exactly. You’re seeing the world through the filter of your beliefs. And everybody in these threads, who has had differing levels of success is pointing out that your beliefs at minimum are keeping you from achieving any success and in many ways are wrong. Yet you continue to cling onto them for dear life. Even if your experiences did lead to your beliefs, they are still extremely detrimental in you moving forward in this realm. Therapy is essentially a ways to challenge our own limiting beliefs. I suspect that’s why you dismiss it so handily as you do most of the advice here. I dismiss it much the same way I dismiss people who spit the contents of text books out of their mouth when conversing. Real, actual experience trumps theory in every single way, nearly every single time. I have recounted my experience with therapists before, absolutely no value to be had because, well the theory is this but well the reality is that. Much the same applies to dating coaches, both hold out their hand without providing to me at least any tangible benefit whatsoever. My beliefs are what they are because of the experiences I have had, you know good experiences change my beliefs too, time spent with this lady was really, really nice and I know how nice it can be so my belief was changed there to some extent, positive experiences leads to positive points of view. The way for me to fix this is to conjure up positive experiences because every positive one gives me belief as to what is possible. I should also mention these beliefs are only what they are because of OLD and because when I go out this is exactly what I see around me.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 1 hour ago, elaine567 said: What exactly did you improve? Your flirting, your kissing, your seduction technique...? I think not. I guess you maybe improved your ability to be a friend, but not your ability to be a lover. That is the fundamental problem. Until you can act like a potential lover then even the most desperate woman will turn you down. Women who are actively dating have enough friends, they don't go on dating apps to acquire any more. We get posts all the time from women on this forum, "He doesn't touch me, he hasn't tried to kiss me, is he interested in me at all?" Answer - likely no. Unless you indicate clear and positive romantic interest via flirting and some appropriate physical contact, then you head straight into the friendzone. Few woman looking for a bf really want to waste time with a guy who shows no signs of wanting to be her lover. K had a bf, the yoga teacher had a crush on another guy, and the widow was way out of your league, so all essentially unavailable and not interested in you. You set yourself up to fail from day one. (Had we not intervened, you were about to add the coffee date girl to that list...) Your "improvement" was completely lost on these women as they were never interested in seeing you in that way. A very experienced guy could maybe have enticed K away from her bf, turned the yoga teacher around and attracted the widow, but you had essentially no hope. With some elementary skiing skills learned on the nursery slopes, you keep tackling black runs, with the inevitable disastrous results... Again so be it really. The idea of using people for practice has no appeal to me and never will have any appeal either. I improved at conversation, less awkwardness, more confidence and just generally calmer. I openly admit I cannot flirt, I have watched countless videos, I simply do not think like that, I openly admit I cant seduce anyone. It is what it is, if all that women value are seduction and sex, well then its hardly surprising I get nowhere, here I thought there was more to this, I guess not. Nobody is interested barring people I find totally unattractive and you know what many of them fall all over me because I am their ticket out of the poverty many find themselves in, its got nothing to do with me or whatever, its got to do with the fact I have a lifestyle, which to them at least is more appealing than their own. The one thing I regret, perhaps more than any other is that nobody I am interested in is ever interested in me. Just yesterday a friend and I were discussing this "Yeah the window is not for you, for xyz reasons" to which I turned around "Well nobody is ever for me are they" and that was the end of that.
elaine567 Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 35 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: It is what it is, if all that women value are seduction and sex, well then its hardly surprising I get nowhere, here I thought there was more to this, I guess not. ALL that women value is NOT seduction and sex, but dating is not dating without romance, seduction and sex, surely? Hanging out with a platonic friend or a "roommate" is not dating. What differentiates friends from dates is romantic interest and sexual attraction leading to sex...
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 39 minutes ago, elaine567 said: ALL that women value is NOT seduction and sex, but dating is not dating without romance, seduction and sex, surely? Hanging out with a platonic friend or a "roommate" is not dating. What differentiates friends from dates is romantic interest and sexual attraction leading to sex... Well that is good to know at least, here I was thinking why players do so well....but there is probably some truth in that too I suppose. Romance for me is defined by the guy who can offer her more than any other, that is the guy who is going to get the romantic interest or the one who can sweet talk for hours. There is a reason I do not sell things for a living because I lack any sort of selling ability at all which I guess is why romance is not really something I can do. Attraction, well OLD helped me here hugely so at least I know why the look alike Kate Upton I saw yesterday would never be interested in me.
SumGuy Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 44 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: ...Attraction, well OLD helped me here hugely so at least I know why the look alike Kate Upton I saw yesterday would never be interested in me. As long as you persist in reducing what women want, or even what the women you want want, to simple transactional/materialism you will never have interest...unless you go full on that route and just become a sugar daddy. If one can't see the problem there is little hope for a solution. I can't recall, have you thought of just going the sugar daddy route, basically another way of women who are just looking for gold and men that have that to offer. I understand it can be more than that emotionally, just gets your foot in the door so to speak especially when you have a hard time making a good first impression in the dating realm. 1
Weezy1973 Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 2 hours ago, ZA Dater said: The one thing I regret, perhaps more than any other is that nobody I am interested in is ever interested in me. And as most people have pointed out, if you want to find an actual relationship this means you have to lower your expectations (particularly in the purely physical looks department of a woman) or raise your appeal. But I suspect you’ll refuse. Because deep down you actually don’t want to succeed. Your fear of being hurt is so great, that creating a world where it’s impossible for you to find a match works to prevent that. You are unequivocally against taking any risk. And without risk there is no reward. So the cycle continues.
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