Coffee Date

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

I honestly can't imagine how a discussion of anything could last for two hours.   Either this is a massive exaggeration or you kept engaging on the topic.   If it was the latter, the date was probably horrific for both of you.  

Do you know how to segue into a new topic?

No exaggeration she did ALL the talking I just nodded and tried to move onto another topic and that did not work oh and to end the date she wanted to know what I was buying her for her birthday which was the following week.

[MeadowFlower]

9 hours ago, enigma32 said:

All of these things are good traits to have but no female ever is looking at a guy and thinking about how she wants to have sex with him because he's so honest. 

There are some women though who fall for the guy for who he is, not for what he looks like. 

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Unless you pay for Tinder Gold to see how many women have swiped right on you, how does one even know they match with big girls who talk about themselves?

I had Tinder Gold for one month and yeah, the right-swipes I received that I hadn't already right-swiped myself were not worth swiping right to.  A lot of big girls indeed.

I did have a lot of big girls message me on PoF because that doesn't require swiping.  Most of them I told straight out I wasn't interested.  Some just wanted to talk anyway, but they did stop quickly if I didn't reciprocate.

At the end of the day, I struggle to believe that all of the 52 women that have swiped right on @ZA Dater were all overweight.  Surely There were a few that were half decent looking prospects, OP?

None whatsoever. 

[chillii]

l don't know about this swiping business l was only on a regular date site back in the day . But can't you so called swipe on whom you like , why do you expect someone to swipe on you first when your the guy ?

l did hear from women on that date site first too and yeah some big girls too and some much older . But that means nothing and exactly what l'd expect . l found anyone l'd be interested in myself and messaged them .

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, enigma32 said:

All of these things are good traits to have but no female ever is looking at a guy and thinking about how she wants to have sex with him because he's so honest. 

So you admit none of your good traits make you a good partner. Why not develop other more useful traits?

Your opinion on what man is better or worse is irrelevant, it's the ladies' opinions that matter here. Are you a better dating prospect from their perspective? Obviously not. So why don't you work on your shortcomings instead of just arguing with people on Loveshack all day? 

Almost every guy ever would do it. 

There is nothing useful I can do but be a better version of the things I already am, maybe one day they will actually have some sort of value. That is pretty much the route I think I am going to go. 

Lets say I one day discover how to be charming and flirt, what use will that be because the boat already sailed. I appreciate this advice but try apply to it someone 37 with no experience in a world that values experience fairly heavily. I try to see how this fight is winnable and frankly I just do not see anyway to win it. 

I keep coming back to the fact I seem better suited to be a friend than a boyfriend, maybe I just need to accept this once and for all and make the best of this? Even then I am a useful friend rather than one to socialize with. Maybe I am really trying to do something I simply not capable of doing?

Things I can do

: Get fitter, not sure this helps but ok I do this anyway

: New clothes, again I do this seasonally anyway

There is really not much else I can do, I am not meeting any really dateable people so I have to rely on OLD and that is beyond useless and never really get me matched to the sort of people I find interesting.

In short I truly do not know anymore.

[SumGuy]

14 hours ago, enigma32 said:

All of these things are good traits to have but no female ever is looking at a guy and thinking about how she wants to have sex with him because he's so honest. ...

The backward way to think about it and implies dishonesty is fine.   It is more how many women want to have sex with a man they feel is dishonest.

Being honest is a baseline, it is not something you can rely on alone nor something you can ignore.

[SumGuy]

40 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

...Lets say I one day discover how to be charming and flirt, what use will that be because the boat already sailed. I appreciate this advice but try apply to it someone 37 with no experience in a world that values experience fairly heavily. 

I'm 50+ , let's just say the boat ahs not sailed...plenty of good times to be had.  On the expereince, I cannot think of a woman ever met who was impressed by how many partners a man had, usually there is an inverse correlation...if that is the expereince you are talking about.  Thinking people look at you for your actions and how you treat them...not if you have x years expereince in a relationship...this isn't a job application (to most, and avoid those who approach a relationship with them like you are applying for a job)

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Things I can do

: Get fitter, not sure this helps but ok I do this anyway

: New clothes, again I do this seasonally anyway

 

So looks and looks.   More of the same.  Frankly if you are going to go that "status" route money would produce much better returns.

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There is really not much else I can do,

That is not so, you can work on your communication and engagement.  Now if you know how to do this or not is another story.

Personally I believe this is the secret to my success in OLD and dating in general, communication and engagement.  Not looks or money, and certainly not by conforming to other's expectations you seem to believe in or the media and internet would have you believe are what hot women want, etc.   

[dramafreezone]

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

There is nothing useful I can do but be a better version of the things I already am, maybe one day they will actually have some sort of value. That is pretty much the route I think I am going to go. 

Lets say I one day discover how to be charming and flirt, what use will that be because the boat already sailed. I appreciate this advice but try apply to it someone 37 with no experience in a world that values experience fairly heavily. I try to see how this fight is winnable and frankly I just do not see anyway to win it. 

I keep coming back to the fact I seem better suited to be a friend than a boyfriend, maybe I just need to accept this once and for all and make the best of this? Even then I am a useful friend rather than one to socialize with. Maybe I am really trying to do something I simply not capable of doing?

Things I can do

: Get fitter, not sure this helps but ok I do this anyway

: New clothes, again I do this seasonally anyway

There is really not much else I can do, I am not meeting any really dateable people so I have to rely on OLD and that is beyond useless and never really get me matched to the sort of people I find interesting.

In short I truly do not know anymore.

The thing is I don't think you're really who you say you are.  I think a lot of what you do is out of what you think will gain you favor with others.

I know because I used to be like you in a sense, say that I'm a nice guy.  I'm not really a nice guy, in reality while I'm a good listener, I've got a lot of intellectual vanity.  Vanity is not a quality of a nice guy, so that's something I used to hide.   I thought that being a nice guy was my strength, so I bought into this same flawed thinking that women would appreciate that.  I think it was an unconcious decision to go the "nice guy" route because my brother was always really good with women and I always positioned myself to be the opposite of him.  So if he was doing that corny charming stuff, I would be more honest and genuine, or so I thought.

The thing is, it doesn't work if that not really who you are.  I believe women are very intuitive when it comes to social interactions, and they can see someone that's at conflict with themselves.  They don't trust it.

I have a friend that's actually a nice guy, and he does well with women.  For the life of me I couldn't figure out why he did so well, why what I thought was a corny act worked so well.  Over the years I figured out it's because it wasn't an act, he was that guy all the time, without effort.  He is a really happy person, always seeing the positive in a situation, and people just want to be around that genuine positivity.

You say you're such a good guy and you're dependable and you offer all of these intangible traits, but that's in direct conflict with your cynical view of the world.  So I say just be a cynic outwardly and might do better, because at least people will know what they're getting with you.

Edited June 3, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

 

The thing is I don't think you're really who you say you are.  I think a lot of what you do is out of what you think will gain you favor with others.

I know because I used to be like you in a sense, say that I'm a nice guy.  I'm not really a nice guy, in reality while I'm a good listener, I've got a lot of intellectual vanity.  Vanity is not a quality of a nice guy, so that's something I used to hide.   I thought that being a nice guy was my strength, so I bought into this same flawed thinking that women would appreciate that.  I think it was an unconcious decision to go the "nice guy" route because my brother was always really good with women and I always positioned myself to be the opposite of him.  So if he was doing that corny charming stuff, I would be more honest and genuine, or so I thought.

The thing is, it doesn't work if that not really who you are.  I believe women are very intuitive when it comes to social interactions, and they can see someone that's at conflict with themselves.  They don't trust it.

I have a friend that's actually a nice guy, and he does well with women.  For the life of me I couldn't figure out why he did so well, why what I thought was a corny act worked so well.  Over the years I figured out it's because it wasn't an act, he was that guy all the time, without effort.  He is a really happy person, always seeing the positive in a situation, and people just want to be around that genuine positivity.

You say you're such a good guy and you're dependable and you offer all of these intangible traits, but that's in direct conflict with your cynical view of the world.  So I say just be a cynic outwardly and might do better, because at least people will know what they're getting with you.

I have become quite good at show and mirrors, I do not bother showing my caring side much anymore because its a one way ticket to being used so its easier to just be neutral. Besides caring counts for nothing anyway. My view is a direct result of what I see around me and the experiences I have had. I get your thinking to a degree because to some extent I was there until I made a decision to be the person I wanted to be, yes I am cynical but that is largely hidden and in truth, people will hate this but there have only been around 5 or so dates where I have thought "Ok you are really great" so for the rest of the time I am just going out to enjoy the persons company or try to. 

I used to get very irritated by rejection because the dates I did like were like high stakes poker games, I always lost but I always tried to win but eventually I realized I was not going to win so I might as go along anyway and expect nothing  and see what happens even though I knew the outcome.

You are right some people just seem naturally better at this than others, I have a friend who does very well but tells me he struggles. 

I never do things to curry favor with others, I look around me and I see the deception used and decided not to do that, I look around me and see the lies told and decided not to do that. My challenge to myself is to be a better version of me tomorrow than I was today. In time we all learn and I just think what I have learnt are skills which frankly have no use at dating, I am ice cool under immense stress, I handle conflict very well and am a good mediator and I never decide things based on emotions but objective facts.  That last one is a problem for women because it means I am largely unemotional a lot of the time,  I try to take the edge off this  a bit by trying to do light hearted conversation.

Step one for me seems to be finding a way to meet people and then having some quality which makes me attractive to them, hope is fading fast on this though. 

[SumGuy]

8 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

...I have a friend that's actually a nice guy, and he does well with women.  For the life of me I couldn't figure out why he did so well, why what I thought was a corny act worked so well.  Over the years I figured out it's because it wasn't an act, he was that guy all the time, without effort.  He is a really happy person, always seeing the positive in a situation, and people just want to be around that genuine positivity...

So true.  It is because it is not an act. 

[SumGuy]

  

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have become quite good at show and mirrors, I do not bother showing my caring side much anymore because its a one way ticket to being used so its easier to just be neutral.

 Few want that.  That is a good way to have women lose interest in you as a potential romantic partner.  They don't want show and mirrors (I know you think that is what they are keying on when you see guys succeed but it's not) and being neutral (i.e. dull) not a good strategy for getting interest.

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Besides caring counts for nothing anyway.

BS.  Complete and utter BS.  Just because some succeed without it does not mean it counts for nothing.  Actually what you likely see are people faking the caring.

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My view is a direct result of what I see around me and the experiences I have had.

Of course it is.  I do not doubt what you "see" led you to believe this, I seriously doubt that you see the whole picture even in public (i.e. confirmation bias) let alone what goes on outside your site.   Second, I really doubt you are interpreting correctly what you see, you have a pet theory of human interactions and all your observations are viewed through that lens, and it is both a very limited one, generally wrong and even wrong for those situations where money and looks are very important. 

Your intellect is your own worse enemy here, it is strong at rationalization which is great in almost all cases except for ones like this.  I suspect to that you being a highly logical and rational person you underestimate how the emotional need to have your theory be right and how that skews you views.

In my view you really do not convey caring or nice guy to those you date.  You may think you do but how you describe it is not the way a person who really does care or really is a nice guy (in the good sense) would in my expereince.  I think dramafreezone is on to something in that regard.  I do think you have the potential in your core, there is just a lot of nice guy (in the bad sense) wrapped around it.

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I get your thinking to a degree because to some extent I was there until I made a decision to be the person I wanted to be, yes I am cynical but that is largely hidden

I'm am pretty sure that the women you are attracted to pick up on your cynicism and nice guy (in the bad sense) right away...the may think you are generally OK in the friend zone but make it clear that is where you are because of this nice guy (in the bad sense) vibe.  

I also seriously doubt you have the social skills or acting skills to hide you cynicism etc.   It is far more than words, or tone, body language, posture, facial expressions, etc. are key and keeping them rigidly neutral (to the degree you even can) is horrible...you come off like an android, if you never slip and if you slip you come off as just off.

Those guys you see spinning lies to get the girl, there is a reason being loud, animated, gregarious, interjecting jokes, and alcohol are involved...they are classic covers for the tells of lying.  Then again, a lot of women will know these are just tall tales/lies, and do not care because there is value/attraction in being a good story teller.

Of course if you can be animated, gregarious, and interject jokes while telling a genuine tale, you are near golden.

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and in truth, people will hate this but there have only been around 5 or so dates where I have thought "Ok you are really great" so for the rest of the time I am just going out to enjoy the persons company or try to. 

I used to get very irritated by rejection because the dates I did like were like high stakes poker games, I always lost but I always tried to win but eventually I realized I was not going to win so I might as go along anyway and expect nothing  and see what happens even though I knew the outcome.

Nothing wrong with either of those.  In fact expecting nothing for the outcome is good, as long as you don't stop hoping/trying and make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.   But not trying, not putting yourself out there isn't the answer if wish to increase your odds of success.

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You are right some people just seem naturally better at this than others, I have a friend who does very well but tells me he struggles. 

Yes as in all things.  I am sure your profession, which I believe is in the financial world comes naturally for you, that kind of stuff just have to push myself to do and dislike every minute.  Yet again, even if it comes naturally for you doesn't mean it is easy or you don't have to put in work (struggle) on it.

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I never do things to curry favor with others, I look around me and I see the deception used and decided not to do that, I look around me and see the lies told and decided not to do that.

Good.  Don't curry favor, don't lie.  But stop implicitly equating caring about her and wanting to engage with her and actively seek connection and actively speak in her "language" as currying favor or deception.  Genuinely wanting to get to know her, to see her (not what you think a woman who looks like j and does k is like), to build a bridge is called establishing a human connection.  You have to want that, to like doing it if you want to be genuine.  Then being a virgin etc. isn't going to matter.

On the deception you see used, that is through your lens, I am not convinced that it is even deception because you may think that women are keying on x (and the guy is completely not x so he must be deceiving them) when women really are keying off of y (and you may not even see y because of your theory of people and lack of expereince).  If anything I would think your experience and lack of success would logically lead you to question your theories and interpretations of your observations.  Or if nothing else to stop doubling down on them, what do you have to lose?

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... and I never decide things based on emotions but objective facts.  That last one is a problem for women because it means I am largely unemotional a lot of the time,  I try to take the edge off this  a bit by trying to do light hearted conversation.

Not deciding things based on emotions is a good thing, women actually like that.  Where a lot of people will write you off is your "objective facts" may not be as objective and factual as you think.  However, being this way doesn't mean you have to be largely unemotional, that is generally a turn off.  There are plenty of good emotions people like to see and feel from us.

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Step one for me seems to be finding a way to meet people and then having some quality which makes me attractive to them, hope is fading fast on this though. 

Agree on step one, on the next I fear you are still seeing this as some item like on a resume...that you have some look, resource, status, hobby, etc. that will make them do all the work and show sufficient interest for you to then show interest in them.   Really think you need a 12 step program to get over the addiction to your theory of human interaction which leads to what you think all the women you want, want, that in turn leads to your largely unemotional and nice guy (in the bas sense) vibe.  I see the theory-what women want-vibe circle to be intertwined and your threads follow that pattern.  When we have gone too many times around that circle you bring in your observations, coupled with some vanity about your infallible powers of observation and interpretation.  Your experience, in my view, are directly a result of this theory-what women want-vibe circle.

I think there is hope for you though, hence why I spend way to much time responding. 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, enigma32 said:

Basically, you are saying that instead of working on the things that you really need to work on, you won't bother with those things, you'll just do something else that you know doesn't work. You're 37, not 87. You still have time to learn new tricks and adapt. I think you lack the courage to do so. You'd rather just accept defeat and complain online than make changes that would improve your life. If you refuse to step out of your comfort zone, you will always be a failure.

I think its not so much changes me seeing any sort of benefit of those changes, which I realize sounds pretty stupid to say. My belief is if you feel good about yourself you can project in a better way to other people and heck I might be wrong about that but its just a sense I get from my business dealings which admittedly is not dating.

For me change needs to be accompanied by a purpose or a goal, for example when I did these makeovers I did so on the basis that I might feel good about the new look and I might then become more appealing for feeling good and looking different but the reality was this never really was the case, I had the one but not the other. 

I read through the advice here many times and the conclusion for me mostly the same, I either do not think that way or I do not have those attributes. More than that I simply lack any sort of belief either because when you try and try and well the result is no different and no better eventually you get tired of trying, I am really at that point. Its not like I have countless opportunities so there is the next problem I simply do no have anyone I actually want to date.

Could I learn those attributes, sure but honestly who wants someone who does not know those things and has to learn them? I sometimes think the fact that this is so obvious is more of a deal killer than any attraction issues are.

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, SumGuy said:

  

 

  I suspect to that you being a highly logical and rational person you underestimate how the emotional need to have your theory be right and how that skews you views.

I  Then again, a lot of women will know these are just tall tales/lies, and do not care because there is value/attraction in being a good story teller.

Of course if you can be animated, gregarious, and interject jokes while telling a genuine tale, you are near golden.

Nothing wrong with either of those.  In fact expecting nothing for the outcome is good, as long as you don't stop hoping/trying and make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.   But not trying, not putting yourself out there isn't the answer if wish to increase your odds of success.

Yes as in all things.  I am sure your profession, which I believe is in the financial world comes naturally for you, that kind of stuff just have to push myself to do and dislike every minute.  Yet again, even if it comes naturally for you doesn't mean it is easy or you don't have to put in work (struggle) on it.

Good.  Don't curry favor, don't lie.  But stop implicitly equating caring about her and wanting to engage with her and actively seek connection and actively speak in her "language" as currying favor or deception.  Genuinely wanting to get to know her, to see her (not what you think a woman who looks like j and does k is like), to build a bridge is called establishing a human connection.  You have to want that, to like doing it if you want to be genuine.  Then being a virgin etc. isn't going to matter.

O Your experience, in my view, are directly a result of this theory-what women want-vibe circle.

I think there is hope for you though, hence why I spend way to much time responding. 

I would love my theory to be wrong, I'd love to be proven totally wrong, however every time I try this thing called dating the same theory proves to be totally true. I agree some like story telling, even I can do this from time to time and it does work well if it can get some conversation going but this is not always the case. 

Truthfully and I have been lambasted here before for saying this, there is a very specific type of person who interests me on an overall level, its difficult to say exactly what sort of person this is but I usually know very quickly of they are or if they are not.

As for what they want, well I tend to take a very cold view on this, sure reject me or friendzone me but I usually find it interesting to see who these people land up with and then try work out why I lost out which is where this point of view comes from. It is also true to day most of the time I am beaten so comprehensively I was never in the running to begin with. 

There is also something else I know, IF I could MAYBE do some of the stuff right I have no idea how to do the outcomes might be different but even the I am not sure they would be radically different. Do/did you ever feel like your friends wanted you to succeed at dating? The growing sense I have is people around me actually do not really support me beyond the point of making a project out of me. A good example and this irritates me totally, when once in a blue moon I do find someone I like, there is never "you can do it" its always "well she ABC reason she is not for you" but suddenly XYZ who I really do not like it perfect, is this normal or are my friends abnormal?

For me its almost become a situation of "well I like spending time with her, she is not attracted to me but some great time spent is a lot better than sitting on OLD". Me adopting a defeatist approach will not help but I measure what I term to be success very carefully too. When I am around people I enjoy spending time with I can just be me, I can come out of my shell, be the person I am and its great" so in some respects that for me at the moment is the one good experience I get from time to time.

[Prudence V]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

is this normal or are my friends abnormal?

I’m not sure they’re really friends, TBH. They don’t seem to have your best interests at heart, from what you describe, and nor do they share your core values. 

[Prudence V]

On 6/3/2021 at 3:30 PM, ZA Dater said:

I am not meeting any really dateable people

Get off OLD and meet people F2F. If your professional environment doesn’t expose you to any rateable people, meet them in theirs - as a customer / client, as a collaborator, as a visitor. Or, join a group around one of your interests, or something you can develop an interest in - a hiking group, a book club, a meet-up related to a fandom, etc. Take a summer school / winter school course at a university, or go to (or Zoom into) a public lecture on a topic that interests you. There are loads of opportunities to meet like-minded people, especially in a buzzing place like Cape Town. 

[normal person]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Could I learn those attributes, sure but honestly who wants someone who does not know those things and has to learn them?

Your excuses know no limits. Aren't you tired of never having the success you want? Don't you want to be happy? It feels like so often when you're presented with solutions, you have an excuse not to try. You're in a hole and the way out isn't going to be pretty, or easy, or comfortable. 

Look, you have to start somewhere. Part of dating involves someone taking a risk on you and dealing with whatever you may be lacking. Anyone who dates you accepts that. So it's no reason not to start the process of learning and adapting. 

14 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Few want that.  That is a good way to have women lose interest in you as a potential romantic partner.  They don't want show and mirrors (I know you think that is what they are keying on when you see guys succeed but it's not) and being neutral (i.e. dull) not a good strategy for getting interest. [...]

This whole post was one of the best I've read in a "ZA" thread. Very insightful. 

[SumGuy]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I would love my theory to be wrong, I'd love to be proven totally wrong, however every time I try this thing called dating the same theory proves to be totally true.

I guess a start.  You keep running the same experiment though and keep fitting all your observations into this theory.  My view is you are acting out the textbook definition of confirmation bias.   

By analogy, your theory doesn't even allow for the kind of experiments that could prove it wrong, like assuming light things fall slower than heavy things.   Sure all observation confirms that, especially if one doesn't realize the importance or even existence of air resistance.  Here you see looks and money and lies, you discount or miss the social interaction and connection aspects (the air resistance) so you cannot even begin to fathom an experiment or recognize the data that shows its existence.

Not trying to be harsh, confirmation bias is the bed rock of most peoples self confidence it seems and how they make sense of the world.

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Truthfully and I have been lambasted here before for saying this, there is a very specific type of person who interests me on an overall level, its difficult to say exactly what sort of person this is but I usually know very quickly of they are or if they are not.

I'm not lambasting you for that, nor even suggest you go after more "average" women.    

I am as "picky" as they come, I want cute, sexy, adventurous, in-shape, smart, insightful, funny, well read, intellectual, understanding, easy going, can do, successful, spiritual, geeky (very geeky), non-materialistic and into the same music, books, movies and politics as me, plus other things.  Plus I am looking for a relationship not just sex.  

Luckily I have some broad tastes in entertainment and looks...and on the latter from some of the examples of what you have given for the looks you like are the too skinny model look for me, but to each their own.  It is important to know what the core of what attracts you is.

All trying to say, I set a high bar some may say, and focus on what those women want.  As non-materialistic is a big part of it, a lot of transactional dating type advice is useless to me.  Even though my taste in women may be different, have dated several in the actual "model" category as recognized by their profession etc. so don't think my views are inapposite to what you are after.  I will say my views are not designed to get transactional and materialistic women, I actually try to filter them out.  I can and have, so know the difference, I too once took sips of the "cultural norm" Kool-aid.

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As for what they want, well I tend to take a very cold view on this, sure reject me or friendzone me but I usually find it interesting to see who these people land up with and then try work out why I lost out which is where this point of view comes from. It is also true to day most of the time I am beaten so comprehensively I was never in the running to begin with. 

I get why one does this, but it is a waste of time to wonder...you will have advanced in your inner state when who she ends up with is of no concern to you and never give it a thought.  

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..., is this normal or are my friends abnormal?

Like others have said, not very sure how good of friends these friends are.  They certainly are not really helpful in your dating, they think they know what you like or should and their only advice seems to be to be like them.  I'm not sure, but the help you need dating wise is a tall order and beyond the skill set of many even if their intentions are good.

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When I am around people I enjoy spending time with I can just be me, I can come out of my shell, be the person I am and its great" so in some respects that for me at the moment is the one good experience I get from time to time.

That is a good in and of itself.  Perhaps if you get enough time being out of your shell in these circumstances you can get better at it in others.  Also at least these people are getting a glimpse of the attractive (personality wise) you.  That could turn into them setting you up at some point; but that is a long term thing and iron in the fire for a while moving at its own pace while you can be out trying other things.

Edited June 4, 2021 by SumGuy

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

I guess a start.  You keep running the same experiment though and keep fitting all your observations into this theory.  My view is you are acting out the textbook definition of confirmation bias.   

By analogy, your theory doesn't even allow for the kind of experiments that could prove it wrong, like assuming light things fall slower than heavy things.   Sure all observation confirms that, especially if one doesn't realize the importance or even existence of air resistance.  Here you see looks and money and lies, you discount or miss the social interaction and connection aspects (the air resistance) so you cannot even begin to fathom an experiment or recognize the data that shows its existence.

 

I fully recognize the huge importance and again I might be wrong but surely this is pretty much vital to have any real chance of dating someone? For me I look at all the dates as a way to try and learn something I can take forward hence I went out with a LOT of people I really was not interested in because I wanted to advance the conversational aspect and connecting in that way and the best way I thought was to go out with people and take them all at their own merits rather than have a pre conceived idea about them from a conversational point of view.

Do  you think there are really any really common likes? I am not so sure about this BUT I will concede this is due to the circumstances I found myself in. You are right you can tell oneself many things and then confirm those things with perhaps not seeing the full picture.

What I can tell you is when I have found people I like, its like things just do not fit together in the dating sense, they work reasonably well in the friend sense but there just is never anything to really glue everything together. This is why I believed that for me the key was to go the friend route, which would allow me to be me and show the best version of me over an extended period of time but I get this does not work but do you see the logic I had here with that idea?

As for being set up, there are many stories where I got passed on as some project and "oh I can fix him and set him up" this never happened really and when it did there was zero mutual attraction. 

To give you an example there were maybe three occasions I did try with people I met randomly, BUT the proviso here was these were places I felt really comfortable and unfortunately not places you will find lots of women. Each time they had bf's but I did try over an extended period of time and got to the point where they told me they had bf's. These were mostly better experiences than OLD.

My view with OLD is I am competing with tons of other matches so have maybe 30min to do my best sell and that is never going to work....

Its really difficult for me to sit here and know where the destination is but have zero idea how to get there but I also know that in terms of what I am looking for there are other ideas which tick many of the boxes so its a tough call all round.

Edited June 4, 2021 by ZA Dater

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Get off OLD and meet people F2F. If your professional environment doesn’t expose you to any rateable people, meet them in theirs - as a customer / client, as a collaborator, as a visitor. Or, join a group around one of your interests, or something you can develop an interest in - a hiking group, a book club, a meet-up related to a fandom, etc. Take a summer school / winter school course at a university, or go to (or Zoom into) a public lecture on a topic that interests you. There are loads of opportunities to meet like-minded people, especially in a buzzing place like Cape Town. 

No potential there either and too much of my life runs off work related things, I once tried to date a co worker which seemed like a great idea, except she went on one date with me and went back to her ex bf the following week. 

I suppose the elephant in the room is my life tends to revolve around work almost 24/7, if I am not doing it I am thinking about it, call it the space I feel most comfortable barring my hobbies. Unfortunately my hobbies really are not conducive to meeting people but there is an allure to them which might interest others so its not a total dead end. It would be nice to share a great dinner with someone at a beautiful venue, I am arranging one for one of my hobby groups but I am going to take K as a friend, they all know her there as she often comes along with me and she fits in well. 

See while not conventional taking her at least makes me fit in a bit and if you want to go there I get a benefit of sharing the dinner with someone. 

I will look around and see if there is anything not too time consuming which interests me but the meet up I went too was so contrived to the point of being unpleasant, in my mind people get friend between 15-25 and they tend to retain those friends, its harder to make friends when people are married, have kids, the single guy does not fit in well at that dynamic in my experience.

If all fails I can sit at home with my favorite spreadsheet.