Coffee Date

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

Why don't you take something positive out of this?  This attractive woman went out with you, so you likely met her minimum attraction level.  That means if all went well she could see herself having sex with you.

That means you can't use this idea that you need to be some chiseled statue-esque guy to attract women.  You're good enough, you have to work on raising her attraction level, and that takes a very specific set of skills that are severely underdeveloped in you right now.

The positive is the absolute indifference I feel, that is the major positive, the help here has been tremendous in the sense I wont or will try very hard not to go down the rejected but be my friend road. Very valuable advice there for me. Again this is not the usual person I attract and I have no idea why she even matched with me. 

I do not really have those skills and am very unlikely to ever have them, its about being realistic and living with rather than metaphorically crying about it. Still today a friend tells me I must try befriend this lady, for no purpose really. The best control we all have is controlling how we choose to react to a situation. 

The world wont help me so I'll have to either help myself or simply just move on because no attractive lady wants a basket case which is frankly what I am and I am going to market myself as such from now on, it serves the purpose of me being honest and well I get the predictable result I know I will get anyway so why bother prolonging the inevitable. Again we can all control the emotions we feel and our reactions.

[chillii]

Nah , just let it fizzle away.

But once again we have the games of her just out of a relationship , well wtf is she even doing on there in the first place then if she's really feeling that way. Damn these people get on my nerves.  l know it was partly an excuse to but none the less.

Anyway op , you did well , even if it goes no where that's ok it happens to everyone , that's what meeting is all about. You know lately now though that you can meet women and you certainly get to meet a few that's for sure, and that you can have a nice time and can talk with the right ones. You've made some real progress lately , even though your feeling same old. Not true.

[dramafreezone]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The positive is the absolute indifference I feel, that is the major positive, the help here has been tremendous in the sense I wont or will try very hard not to go down the rejected but be my friend road. Very valuable advice there for me. Again this is not the usual person I attract and I have no idea why she even matched with me. 

I do not really have those skills and am very unlikely to ever have them, its about being realistic and living with rather than metaphorically crying about it. Still today a friend tells me I must try befriend this lady, for no purpose really. The best control we all have is controlling how we choose to react to a situation. 

The world wont help me so I'll have to either help myself or simply just move on because no attractive lady wants a basket case which is frankly what I am and I am going to market myself as such from now on, it serves the purpose of me being honest and well I get the predictable result I know I will get anyway so why bother prolonging the inevitable. Again we can all control the emotions we feel and our reactions.

Have you ever considered joining a site such as Seeking Arrangements?

[peach302]

On 5/9/2021 at 8:48 PM, ZA Dater said:

After much encouragement and help from users here, against my better judgement I went on this date. Perhaps the one attractive match I had from Tinder in 5 odd years.

Things looked good, she does not drink, she is into healthy living, is a life coach, models. We did not chat a lot before meeting up which I think helped  and the location was great , small cafe near the ocean.

My objective here was to try and do better bearing in mind the encouragement I received but I was also cautious because well I know these never end up with great outcomes. The date itself went well, for once I was complimented, asked questions and we chatted well. The downside is I realised I was never going to measure up to what she actually wanted, this is typical though so I took it on the chin. We got along well and the conversation went well, we have a few things in common,  some beliefs in common and I did find her attractive which for me is rather rare.

And so it was with a text this morning "I have come out of a relationship and not looking for anything and it was good meeting you and if you are OK with friends we could be friends". For me this basically just means there were not attraction, nobody goes onto Tinder to find friends, they go to find partners so this is just a nice way of rejecting me. Do I once again go down the useless friend road or do I just walk away?

 

Walk away. She was trying to be polite. 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Have you ever considered joining a site such as Seeking Arrangements?

Been there. Totally not what I want.

[ZA Dater]

Yeah and the social media side is interesting, fancy helicopter trip with some guy today so yeah its another case of "well I can get more". Make no mistake the benefits here were immense for me.

 

[IntBrowser]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Been there. Totally not what I want.

That sounds a lot better than dating to be honest

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, IntBrowser said:

That sounds a lot better than dating to be honest

Trust me it is not. Its totally fake and a complete waste of time and resources.

[IntBrowser]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Trust me it is not. Its totally fake and a complete waste of time and resources.

even if she is HOT and OPEN MINDED?

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, IntBrowser said:

even if she is HOT and OPEN MINDED?

Depends what you want out of it, for me its never offered the companionship I want, its rather like a jute box, need to keep offering money for no real return.

[dramafreezone]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Trust me it is not. Its totally fake and a complete waste of time and resources.

Seems exactly what you should want?  Could you explain why it doesn't work for you?

The reality is you have to pay a price somewhere.  The way I see it is you want companionship but don't want to pay a price for it, literally or figuratively.  You want something for nothing basically.  Companionship, love, sex, none of it is free, for any guy.  You are paying for all of it in some form or fashion.

Edited May 11, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

14 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Seems exactly what you should want?  Could you explain why it doesn't work for you?

The reality is you have to pay a price somewhere.  The way I see it is you want companionship but don't want to pay a price for it, literally or figuratively.  You want something for nothing basically.  Companionship, love, sex, none of it is free, for any guy.  You are paying for all of it in some form or fashion.

Sure but when I am having to physically pay by the hour and I know she is only there because I am paying, that idea has zero interest at all for me more so when she has zero interest in me either and is simply using me like an ATM. 

I am indifferent to the entire dating idea now, there is not a lot that entices me to actually bother beyond window shopping. Sex, sure that would be nice but I have already long established I need to find the person attractive overall and I'd want to be pretty comfortable around them which means spending lots of time with them and that is not going to happen. 

All seeking is, its totally transactional and the value is heavily weighted in favor of the ladies. Having coffee with me I must pay $200, why I can sit on my own and have coffee. There is just zero value to be had, for me at least.

As for the subject of this thread, its once again based on social media, expensive dinners, helicopter rides and its a case of the most once again wins. As I say I just feel indifferent to the entire idea.

[basil67]

Of course, this reflects the lives of those elites you choose to hang out with. The rest of us have an expensive dinner for special occasions, $4 coffee, look like regular people and only dream of helicopter rides.  

If you’re going to hang out with the beautiful, wealthy elite, you’ve got to expect they want someone who lives the same lifestyle as them.   

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Of course, this reflects the lives of those elites you choose to hang out with. The rest of us have an expensive dinner for special occasions, $4 coffee, look like regular people and only dream of helicopter rides.  

If you’re going to hang out with the beautiful, wealthy elite, you’ve got to expect they want someone who lives the same lifestyle as them.   

Incorrect. I was talking about Seeking Arrangement whereby you need to pay the person to spend time with you, i.e. an hourly rate and that is before you buy dinner or anything else, its purely transactional dating nothing more and nothing less.

You know the so called elites I apparently hang out with also like a waffle from a food truck......just saying

[SumGuy]

16 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Seems exactly what you should want?  Could you explain why it doesn't work for you?

The reality is you have to pay a price somewhere.  The way I see it is you want companionship but don't want to pay a price for it, literally or figuratively.  You want something for nothing basically.  Companionship, love, sex, none of it is free, for any guy.  You are paying for all of it in some form or fashion.

Agreed if one form in paying the price to expand and improve yourself, it is paying yourself...and it provides many dividends.

[ZA Dater]

18 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Agreed if one form in paying the price to expand and improve yourself, it is paying yourself...and it provides many dividends.

I am very surprised you would advocate this, a purely transactional arrangement. I have tried this a few times before and got zero benefit from it. I can sit and have a very nice dinner on my own rather than pay someone to sit there and pretend to be interested in me. Its about a fake as being made a fuss of at a strip club.

[SumGuy]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

I am very surprised you would advocate this, a purely transactional arrangement. I have tried this a few times before and got zero benefit from it. I can sit and have a very nice dinner on my own rather than pay someone to sit there and pretend to be interested in me. Its about a fake as being made a fuss of at a strip club.

I'm not advocating a pure transactional relationship by any means, but then again not going to judge what two consenting adults want to do even if it is not for me.

Read a bit more closely, I am saying if "paying the price" means improving yourself, e.g. improving your outlook, social circle, body, mind, social skills etc. (which is certainly work and thus entail a price in time and focus) then I agree.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am indifferent to the entire dating idea now, there is not a lot that entices me to actually bother beyond window shopping.

You don’t honestly think this is some new development in your thinking do you? This is part of your cycle, as predictable as the sun rising and setting. 
 

Basically you want to find a relationship with no risk or investment, but then you realize it isn’t possible so you claim indifference, until the loneliness sets in and you seek a relationship with no risk or investment. And so on, and so on, and so on. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Weezy1973

[elaine567]

ZA Dater like a lot of us, needs and wants someone to actually care about him.
Yes we can all be self reliant, but when our lives are devoid of anyone who actually cares, it is not a good place to be.
Most of us have friends, colleagues or at least some family members who care. 
Without that, life can be desolate and empty.
As a woman, I can easily see why ZA does not want to pay for a date. 
i can never imagine paying anyone to speak to me or listen to me or pretend they cared for me... and if I gave them enough money, they would have sex with me...

Many guys are hungry for sex and some guys really don't care if the woman actually likes him or not. Sex is the only goal.
They pay because they can.
ZA Dater is looking for a woman who truly cares and I guess that is a rare commodity on Seeking Arrangements.
That can really only be acquired by dating. 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You don’t honestly think this is some new development in your thinking do you? This is part of your cycle, as predictable as the sun rising and setting. 
 

Basically you want to find a relationship with no risk or investment, but then you realize it isn’t possible so you claim indifference, until the loneliness sets in and you seek a relationship with no risk or investment. And so on, and so on, and so on. 

I think I am about done making investments with no real return, the way I see it the best investment I can make is in myself. I am  enjoying my new fitness routine, enjoying working even more and the challenges I have there. Quite frankly enjoying not being on dating sites.

Maybe going on this date and more of the same old was helpful because its set my mind free, I always wondered a lot of things but a LOT of the advice in this thread makes a lot of sense to me, especially my default method of "well she rejected me so lets be friends because well I have nothing else", breaking that cycle I think is important for me to NOT have to endure anymore of the same sort of outcomes. 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

ZA Dater like a lot of us, needs and wants someone to actually care about him.
Yes we can all be self reliant, but when our lives are devoid of anyone who actually cares, it is not a good place to be.
Most of us have friends, colleagues or at least some family members who care. 
Without that, life can be desolate and empty.
As a woman, I can easily see why ZA does not want to pay for a date. 
i can never imagine paying anyone to speak to me or listen to me or pretend they cared for me... and if I gave them enough money, they would have sex with me...

Many guys are hungry for sex and some guys really don't care if the woman actually likes him or not. Sex is the only goal.
They pay because they can.
ZA Dater is looking for a woman who truly cares and I guess that is a rare commodity on Seeking Arrangements.
That can really only be acquired by dating. 

Its actually impossible on there because the dozen or so times i have tried this the outcome is never anything I really want and why should I really pay for what everyone else really finds on their own by some way or other. If nobody cares, well then nobody cares, I care a lot but maybe I need to not care at all. 

With everything I do I try and gain understanding, if I do something wrong I want to understand why and yes I wanted to gain some understanding of dating and to be honest this lady as attractive as she was and she was VERY attractive and the common things like no drinking, I really was not that interested really because well I think I have understood enough in 20 odd years about dating to have some of the picture but not all of it, perhaps I will see the whole picture in time but what I see so far really does have limited appeal at best.

A lot of you are trying to make me believe in something better than the reality I have and I appreciate that. It is however liberating to not be on any dating sites at all, someone I know well told me the most stupid thing the other day while involved in a business debate  "just go meet people, any people, ugly ones, fits ones, anyone" its stupid because he knows full well I do not fit in. If I accept that, sitting at home working on spreadsheets working on agreements is actually alright because I know I CANNOT do anything more than that so I might as well be useful at something. Sitting trying to make conversation with people I have nothing in common with serves me no purpose other than making me feel more like a misfit and consequently miserable. 

I have had many great times so its not like I do not know how good it can be but maybe those are not meant for me. 

[elaine567]

The reason I am seeing you are unsuccessful is that you do not ooze sex, like so many men do.
No-one wants to date their brother or their bank manager, they want a guy who makes their heart flutter.
All kinds of guys can do that, it is not all down to film star good looks.

Get in touch with your own sexuality, start feeling sexy, start thinking cool, start thinking of bridging that gap.
Start thinking of taking things to different levels and get yourself out of the friendzone.

Practice, practice, practice. will get you there.

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The reason I am seeing you are unsuccessful is that you do not ooze sex, like so many men do.
No-one wants to date their brother or their bank manager, they want a guy who makes their heart flutter.
All kinds of guys can do that, it is not all down to film star good looks.

Get in touch with your own sexuality, start feeling sexy, start thinking cool, start thinking of bridging that gap.
Start thinking of taking things to different levels and get yourself out of the friendzone.

Practice, practice, practice. will get you there.

Nobody to practice on is problem number one and part of the reason I tried this arrangement idea. I do believe you are right though, add in low confidence, very poor dating success and what do I really have to win by risking even more and potentially looking even more stupid.

What you touch on here is valid because this is EXACTLY why I have gone to extreme lengths to try and understand what women actually want and when I see its the wealthy or the fun or the good looking of the charming, or the "I have cool friends" I just realise that I am have no chance at all so why expose myself to more potential humiliation and rejection. It was hard enough growing up being teased and mocked for not doing what everyone else does, can you imagine how the dating world would eat me up? This the crux as to why I approached from the friend zone angle because at no point do I believe I am that sexy guy she is going to want to take her to bed. But I might be that guy she asks for advice about life and leans on when times are tough. I somehow did until now believe I could if I proved myself to be a good enough guy bridge that gap which I now realise was misguided and dumb.

Just like any guy I want that athletic brunette who sits at the coffee bar but unlike most others I know I have neither the skill nor the sex appeal to actually get anywhere, what I do have is the potential to be useful, that is about it. Almost ALL of the times I have attempted to date I have had to go from this angle as I have nothing else. Its always telling to me when some women greet all other men with a hug and greet me with a handshake. That tells me all I need to know really.  This is also probably the bare fact I should have posted up here long ago but there is a lot of shame and tons more disappointment which goes with it.

What does not help all of this either is a situation like this, playboy friend, window and me. 

Friend: Window you just need a F. 

Window: Oh just stop it , laughing

Friend: maybe you can find someone to go down on M(being me)

The level of awkward I show is off the charts here, just makes me feel worse, should I feel worse? Not sure to be honest. 

Again you are right, just not a lot I can do about it, working out, nice clothes, neither really does anything because I just know that everything is wrong with me so its easier to instead of feeling like a total failure recognise what I do have and just embrace that, even if its those very things which will result in me never finding any success. In short people just find me unattractive at every single level.

[dramafreezone]

6 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Agreed if one form in paying the price to expand and improve yourself, it is paying yourself...and it provides many dividends.

 Of course.  Paying a price comes in many forms, but it usually boils down to time, money or both.

Improving yourself though becoming more personable, more comfortable around women comes at the cost of time for instance.  If you're trying to get a better career, it comes at the expense of time.  Getting a great body costs time and money.

All those men that OP says he despises paid a price to hone their game.  Most of them weren't born with their game, they learned it, and endured rejection, embarassment to get there.  Wealthy people (unless they inherited their wealth) paid a price to get where they are.  Celebrities, entertainers, most paid a price.  Does anyone think Brad Pitt would still be considered a sex symbol if he worked at a gas station?  There are plenty of men that only have great success with women because of their status, which they had to earn.

Really, whether it's charisma, status, wealth, physical prowess, those are all things you had to earn.  And here's the thing, none of that has to do with you as an actual person.

Good looks offer validation for the other person.

Physical prowess offers safety/security/validation for the other person.

Wealth offers a lifestyle/security/validation.

Both good and bad people can possess all of these traits.  So I don't see where using one to attract the opposite sex is somehow more or less virtuous than any other.  You have to know what you have to offer and lean into it, not try to measure yourself against others.  If you're not that attractive and try to measure your success against people who are, you're just setting yourself up for failure and misery.

Edited May 12, 2021 by dramafreezone

[dramafreezone]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure but when I am having to physically pay by the hour and I know she is only there because I am paying, that idea has zero interest at all for me more so when she has zero interest in me either and is simply using me like an ATM. 

I am indifferent to the entire dating idea now, there is not a lot that entices me to actually bother beyond window shopping. Sex, sure that would be nice but I have already long established I need to find the person attractive overall and I'd want to be pretty comfortable around them which means spending lots of time with them and that is not going to happen. 

All seeking is, its totally transactional and the value is heavily weighted in favor of the ladies. Having coffee with me I must pay $200, why I can sit on my own and have coffee. There is just zero value to be had, for me at least.

As for the subject of this thread, its once again based on social media, expensive dinners, helicopter rides and its a case of the most once again wins. As I say I just feel indifferent to the entire idea.

You don't have to do that.  Full disclosure, I opened an account on SA a couple of weeks ago.

I haven't paid for any membership or messaged anyone, but it is really cool (and a bit of an ego boost) to see the dating dynamic flipped on its head.  I have a much better idea of what women experience on traditional OLD.  I get 5-10 favorites a day.

I don't believe in paying for meetups or paying an allowance, but all of them aren't looking for that.  Some just want to spend time with someone that they get along with, can take them on nice dinners, go to events around the city, go on vacations.  I do all of that anyway, so f I found one that was looking for that and I was attracted to, I'd definitely message her.  Would I ever marry someone off of this site?  Hell no, I could never marry someone that placed that high of an emphasis on money.  But date but someone that's fun and pretty, sure?

But I don't get your hangup on "she wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the money."  You wouldn't have gone out with her if she wasn't physically attractive. 

And you're not alone.  You think Mick Jagger would've been a sex symbol if he wasn't a famous rock star?  If he worked at a McDonalds he'd be just another below average looking guy.

Seeking is transactional.  All dating is transactional.  A woman is going out with a guy to use something he has to benefit herself (and same for guys with women).  If he has charisma and makes her feel sexy, she's using him for that feeling.  But that feeling he can give her is not a reflection of his true character.

Same with you.  Do you look at a pretty woman and say "oh wow she's has such a great personality."  Hell no, you know nothing about her.  You're attracted to something that has little to nothing to do with her character.  You feel if you could get her, that would reflect positively on your sexual value.

Edited May 12, 2021 by dramafreezone