Women initiates the Divorce first

[emprosnet7]

2 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

This is primarily what I said. Women are more emotional, have higher emotional needs, and when those needs are inevitably under-serviced during the rut of a marriage, are more prone to marital dissatisfaction. 

The secondary point is that human sexuality offers women the ability to more easily and quickly make a lateral transition into another relationship -- which may have been a factor per se contributing to her marital dissatisfaction. 

The financial implication of divorce was actually my tertiary point, which I fleshed out when it was addressed by other posters. Financial setback is less of a divorce deterrent for women, and financial gain may even be an incentive in some cases. 

On the contrast, men have higher sexual needs and if the woman does not attend to those needs, then the man at best will become distant or look elsewhere. 

[Ruby Slippers]

Studies have shown that, in general, men benefit more from marriage than women do. If you add up all the benefits that each person gets - not just money but free labor in the form of housekeeping, child care, etc. - and consider how hard it would be/how long it would take/how much it would cost to replace those benefits, men get a better deal in marriage. Add to this that women generally fare better single than men and it makes sense.

[rjc149]

3 minutes ago, emprosnet7 said:

On the contrast, men have higher sexual needs and if the woman does not attend to those needs, then the man at best will become distant or look elsewhere. 

Would probably make him want to cheat rather than file for divorce. 

[notbroken]

Men are taught almost from birth to 'suck it up', 'act like a man', 'don't cry', etc and are more likely to suffer in silence and go about 'their duty'.  It is just how they are raised.  Women are not encouraged to suffer in silence as much.   Men also aren't as indoctrinated in the "Disney Dream" and maybe don't have as many "Prince Charming" ideas where things are perfect so don't get as disillusioned when they are not.   Men are often poor communicators and women want to communicate.   Combine all this with the increasing earning power / good jobs of modern women that mean they are no longer as financially dependent and you get to where we are with women initiating most divorces.  Guys will suffer more and longer before leaving.   

[JRabbit]

I think women are overall braver when it comes to starting over.

[basil67]

6 hours ago, rjc149 said:

Typically, men earn more than women, so that would fit the narrative that women benefit financially from divorces more than men do, generally speaking. 

Yes, men typically do earn more than women.  This is because 75% of caring duties are done by women.  Caring for kids, elderly parents etc.  Women typically work less hours so that all this can be achieved.  And the time taken off work when raising small children dramatically impacts their future earning ability.    (Source - Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men.  Book by Caroline Criado Perez) 

However, I would argue that the 25% of men who work less because they do the caring while the woman continues in her career would get a good divorce settlement.   What people contribute to a marriage is measured on more data just than financial contributions.

[rjc149]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

What people contribute to a marriage is measured on more data just than financial contributions.

Very true, but who pays monetary compensation in a divorce settlement is measured by who made more money. Which is typically men.

The near-50% likelihood of a marriage ending in divorce, with a 70% likelihood of the woman initiating it, with the 75% likelihood of life-changing financial setback for the man, are risks men need to consider very carefully when marrying a woman with significantly less money or earning potential. I would argue this must be considered just as carefully as attraction, emotional compatibility, similar viewpoints on children, religion, lifestyle etc. 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, rjc149 said:

Very true, but who pays monetary compensation in a divorce settlement is measured by who made more money. Which is typically men.

The near-50% likelihood of a marriage ending in divorce, with a 70% likelihood of the woman initiating it, with the 75% likelihood of life-changing financial setback for the man, are risks men need to consider very carefully when marrying a woman with significantly less money or earning potential. I would argue this must be considered just as carefully as attraction, emotional compatibility, similar viewpoints on children, religion, lifestyle etc. 

If men did half the caring which needs to be done during business hours, including taking paternity leave for half of the time each young child stays at home, this would allow the women to work equal hours to them, the pay gap would close further and we wouldn't see the disparity of financial settlements.

Or, the guy could work less hours in the type of lower paid job which has this flexibility, and do all the caring and while his wife works full time in her career.  Then she would have to give him a settlement upon divorce.  

In short, a guy is safe from this issue if he shares the caring load or takes on more caring than the woman.   There's no need for a man to run scared from settlement if he works with his wife to ensure her career isn't sidelined by her caring duties.   

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by basil67

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, rjc149 said:

Very true, but who pays monetary compensation in a divorce settlement is measured by who made more money. Which is typically men.

The near-50% likelihood of a marriage ending in divorce, with a 70% likelihood of the woman initiating it, with the 75% likelihood of life-changing financial setback for the man, are risks men need to consider very carefully when marrying a woman with significantly less money or earning potential. I would argue this must be considered just as carefully as attraction, emotional compatibility, similar viewpoints on children, religion, lifestyle etc. 

Are you, or have you been married?

I have.  I also have been divorced.  It was initiated by my ex wife.  No, there was nothing that would be considered "buyer's remorse"  (spare me) or "lateral moves" involved.  

We arrived at the terms of our divorce settlement via mediation.  Our daughter was less than a year from legal adulthood and in her first year at university.  My ex and I agreed to each share in the expenses of her higher education.   

IMO if a man thinks of women as generally transactional,  he's probably so himself.  In that case, I agree that he should only marry a woman who earns the same or significantly more than he does, and not have children.  Much of the "life changing financial setback" you're concerned about stems from custodial issues.  

[basil67]

Yes @NuevoYorko.   I too am divorced.  I initiated it.   We had no kids, so I took out the same percentage which I brought in.   I didn't need a settlement because my earnings hadn't been impacted by caring for children.

I think this whole thing about the high cost of settlement highlights the low value some men place on women's unpaid work.    We take time off work to raise kids, we work lower paid jobs which give us that required flexibility.  Even when it comes to caring for elderly parents, 75% of caring is done by women.   Even in my husband's family, his sisters look after his elderly dad but hubby doesn't do unpaid work because he's busy with his paid work.  

Meanwhile, I'm giving a big high five to the 25% of men who pull their weight in terms of unpaid caring.

Edited August 26, 2020 by basil67

[DKT3]

There seems to be this idea forming that women file more often because they are more unhappy.  That is NOT TRUE.  I think men tend to quit on the marriage but fears what divorce will mean, the behavior goes south thus forcing the woman to ultimately make the move. 

My guess  is an equal amount of men are unhappy with marriage as women 

The thing I don't get is all this talk of unpaid labor...is that really a thing? This idea that women are doing men a favor by caring for thier children is asinine. 

 

[basil67]

The women aren’t doing men a favour by raising children, they are doing what needs to be done when the couple chooses to have a family.   Children need love, care and time.  It’s teamwork.  But the problem with this teamwork is that whoever does the unpaid work will walk away from the marriage with less retirement funds and frequently less earning potential

DKT3 do you think many men would happily take equal time off work to care for their children?

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by basil67

[Zona]

Almost all married women develop a lot of resentment towards their husbands as time goes by. Being a slob, golfing too much, not doing household chores, being insensitive, poor communication skills, etc., starts to eat away at them. Also, the romance that a lot of women crave dries up, leaving them bored and unfulfilled. Women tend to get bored of marital sex much faster then men, especially if it is quick and dirty with no foreplay. More and more women are earning more than their husbands now, and this leads to a ton of resentment. I don't know if I've seen a marriage last under these circumstances.

I would sum it up by saying that women want to get married, they just don't like being married, because it is nothing like they envisioned.

I also think that a lot of women dissolve their marriages because they have a romantic interest outside the marriage. I believe this happens much more often than people realize because women are really good at hiding it. The new guy just seems to magically pop out of nowhere once the ink is dry on the divorce papers.

 

 

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, DKT3 said:

There seems to be this idea forming that women file more often because they are more unhappy.  That is NOT TRUE.  I think men tend to quit on the marriage but fears what divorce will mean, the behavior goes south thus forcing the woman to ultimately make the move. 

My guess  is an equal amount of men are unhappy with marriage as women 

The thing I don't get is all this talk of unpaid labor...is that really a thing? This idea that women are doing men a favor by caring for thier children is asinine. 

 

No, it's not asinine.  Why don't more men just leave the money earning to women so they can stay home all day housekeeping and taking care of children's needs?  

I don't believe that women are more unhappy in bad marriages, but I do think that they get less out of the bad marriages than men do, in general, and also that they are less likely to hang around when unhappy.

In my particular case, the marriage was very damaged but I felt ok with just letting it slide.  I didn't realize that it needed work, though my then wife was regularly trying to get me to counseling, to talk, etc.  I was not "happy" but I was definitely doing OK.  She finally had enough of it and moved on.  I have regrets.  We are still "family" but she is remarried.  I'm single.  

[DKT3]

Women taking care of children is not asinine,  the idea that they do so for the men and somehow deserve payment is asinine.  

Taking care of my children was never difficult for me, its never felt like work or like I deserve payment.  

Why don't more men stay home and take care of kids? Honestly,  until the late 80's early 90's it was socially unacceptable and those men where looked down on. It has become far more common over the past 20 years.  

 

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Women taking care of children is not asinine,  the idea that they do so for the men and somehow deserve payment is asinine.  

Taking care of my children was never difficult for me, its never felt like work or like I deserve payment.  

Why don't more men stay home and take care of kids? Honestly,  until the late 80's early 90's it was socially unacceptable and those men where looked down on. It has become far more common over the past 20 years.  

 

I don't see any women wanting payment for caring for their kids.   However, if divorce happens, the settlement is based on all contributions made to the marriage - not just the financial ones.

If both partners are working and both partners are doing a 50/50 split of childcare and taking equivalent time off work, then the divorce settlement should recognise that both parties have contributed equally.

[Acacia98]

3 hours ago, DKT3 said:

The thing I don't get is all this talk of unpaid labor...is that really a thing? This idea that women are doing men a favor by caring for thier children is asinine. 

Of course it really is a thing. We live in a world in which you need money to transact with people and entities outside your family. So you are automatically at a disadvantage if you are not paid for your labor and if you don't have access to the money your spouse brings home. 

The homemaker may not be "working for her husband," but he sure benefits from her labor. If you have a spouse who is hardworking and responsible and looks after the home and children well, that frees you up more to pursue your career to the fullest of your potential. That can translate into greater earnings. If, on the other hand, your spouse is also pursuing a career outside the home, then the labor in the home has to be divided between you, which takes up your time and energy. Alternatively, you have to pay someone to cook, clean, and keep an eye on the kids.

[basil67]

@enigma32 for the record, I haven't seen any posts about women wanting to be paid for labour at home.  Perhaps we could have been clearer?

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

If a man is out working hard to support his family, I do think he can do better when he has a wife that is home taking care of the house and children for him. It's really nice to know that you have someone you can depend on back at home taking care of things there while you are out working.

But that is exactly where the resentment comes from.
He has a support system that allows him to do what he wants to do.
Face it many men love their jobs, they love working and being a success.
They also love doing the fun stuff with their kids, they often love being out of the house, they love beer, sport, hobbies, games and relaxing...
He is working all week after all...
Whereas she is left with the domestic chores and the kids, and  the responsibility 24/7...
Boring, repetitive and unfulfilling for any woman with a brain.
Yes she may get a job but it is often low paid and part time to fit in with the kids  or lower status full time, due to being out of the workplace having kids for years. 
More unfulfilling work to add to the things she already does...
After years of this, she goes "Stuff it" and files.

[amerikajin]

19 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Studies have shown that, in general, men benefit more from marriage than women do. If you add up all the benefits that each person gets - not just money but free labor in the form of housekeeping, child care, etc. - and consider how hard it would be/how long it would take/how much it would cost to replace those benefits, men get a better deal in marriage. Add to this that women generally fare better single than men and it makes sense.

Men also fare much more poorly after divorce than women, and I don't mean just financially, either. Their mental and physical health nosedive. How much of that is the loss of the relationship with the wife and how much of the depression is attributable to other things like feeling ashamed, losing daily proximity to children, and so forth, I don't know. But men suffer in a divorce more than women do, so there's that.

[Zona]

6 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

...she is remarried.  I'm single.  

She will likely find the same dynamics in her new marriage because most men are pretty similar to each other, and she will eventually start to feel exactly the same way she did when she decided to divorce you. If you need other people to make you happy, then you will likely never be happy.

Second marriages have a sky high divorce rate for a reason.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Zona

[amerikajin]

18 hours ago, notbroken said:

Men are taught almost from birth to 'suck it up', 'act like a man', 'don't cry', etc and are more likely to suffer in silence and go about 'their duty'.  It is just how they are raised.  Women are not encouraged to suffer in silence as much.   Men also aren't as indoctrinated in the "Disney Dream" and maybe don't have as many "Prince Charming" ideas where things are perfect so don't get as disillusioned when they are not.   Men are often poor communicators and women want to communicate.   Combine all this with the increasing earning power / good jobs of modern women that mean they are no longer as financially dependent and you get to where we are with women initiating most divorces.  Guys will suffer more and longer before leaving.   

I think that this is mostly true. The only thing I'd push back on is the idea that women want a "Disney" marriage. Chances are, more women than men realize how hard committed relationships are (speaking as a guy, and no, I'm not p-whipped). It took me a long time to get it, but I realize now that men - myself included - really have no idea what's going on at the emotional level in relationships.

I blame "civilization." In tribal societies, and historically speaking, the role of the woman was much more elevated than it has been the past 10,000 years or so. Women had clearly important roles in managing the politics of the tribe. When we started settling down and developed the ability to stockpile grains and trade them for other goods, transactions and commerce became the way we lived, and having more of it gave some tribal members more power. And we needed physical strength to defend those assets, which gave rise to the male warrior class. We've lived the last 10,000 years with men having the power in and out of the home, but our brains evolved to serve different purposes. We've merely adapted them to live in this context. Now that women have gained a lot of that freedom back over the last 50-75 years, we guys are losing our place and identity, and we're freaking out.

The way I look at it, our divorce statistics reflect this friction between what our male and female brains evolved to do, and what we're trying to force them to do through modern matrimony. And it hurts both women and men.

 

[5x5]

13 minutes ago, amerikajin said:

Men also fare much more poorly after divorce than women, and I don't mean just financially, either. Their mental and physical health nosedive. How much of that is the loss of the relationship with the wife and how much of the depression is attributable to other things like feeling ashamed, losing daily proximity to children, and so forth, I don't know. But men suffer in a divorce more than women do, so there's that.

Damn I must have missed that memo.

Since my health got better with more exercise, while I had a great time sexually with different women up to and including being with my now second wife.

One thing for sure, I dusted myself off and got out into the world and enjoyed myself without hesitation along the way

9 minutes ago, Zona said:

Second marriages have a sky high divorce rate for a reason.

And it seems I missed this memo as well.

Since my first marriage ended in divorce circa 2½ years after "I do".  While my second marriage is still happily going strong at a bit over 21¼ years in.

[Zona]

18 minutes ago, amerikajin said:

The way I look at it, our divorce statistics reflect this friction between what our male and female brains evolved to do, and what we're trying to force them to do through modern matrimony. And it hurts both women and men.

I was thinking about this the other day, and came to the same conclusion. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has made us who we are, and a lot of those traits and instincts are not transitioning well into modern western culture, to the point where if we didn't have immigration and child births from people from more traditional cultures we would be dying out.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Zona

[Woggle]

I talk to men who have had their marriages go south and from their point of view they try and try to make her happy and do whatever emotional work their wives say they should do and it doesn't matter one bit. No matter what he does she has it in he mind that he is the cause of her problems. If you ask me men need to stop twisting themselves into pretzels trying to please a resentful woman. The true cavemen alpha types are thriving these days.

I also thrived after my first marriage ended and she is a trainwreck. I am remarried and my wife is certainly a good one who is worth every bit of effort but if for some reason this ends I will thrive as well.