Are more women content on remaining unattached?

[Ruby Slippers]

^ Wow, I've never experienced anything like that on a dating site. Sounds like they're ordering a piece of furniture 🙄

The man might give me a compliment on some aspect of my looks (eyes, hair, whatever), then we move on to a conversation. 

[OatsAndHall]

13 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

^ Wow, I've never experienced anything like that on a dating site. Sounds like they're ordering a piece of furniture 🙄

The man might give me a compliment on some aspect of my looks (eyes, hair, whatever), then we move on to a conversation. 

If I got a "thanks but not thanks" message, it was typically when I asked them to meet or if we'd been chatting for a bit. Chances are they were interested in me when they first responded but met someone else they were more into. No muss, no fuss; just the nature of OLD. To be honest, I only got irritated by it once and that was because I had a lot in common with the woman I was chatting with. We had several good, long conversations but she told me she wasn't into "my look" when I asked her to meet. I asked her what she meant:

"Oh, you know, the long hair, the goatee... It just gives off a grunge vibe that I don't like. You're really good at the conversation side of things but physical attraction is important and I'm not into you in that way."

It would've been nice if she'd mentioned that before I spent three hours chatting with her..

[CaliforniaGirl]

9 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I think the problem is that men who are not too successful or who are not attracting the women they want or feel they deserve are messaging a likely candidate and getting rejected. They then find a week/month/year later she is still on the dating site....
Logic then kicks in and says she must want to remain unattached.
BUT she is on a dating site, so I guess she has just not met anyone she is truly interested in or a suitable guy who is interested in her.
I doubt that women who want to remain unattached are setting up profiles on dating sites.

 

The weird thing about men or women (this stands for both) saying (let's say in this case it's a guy), "She's STILL on this dating site? She must be a serial dater, or else she aims too high, or else nobody wants her..."

...but here's the thing...the person saying this...

...is also still on that dating site.

If he weren't, he wouldn't know she was.

So.... ????

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, OatsAndHall said:

 

Studies have shown that neither gender is self-aware when it comes to their physical appearance; both sides view themselves as more attractive than "society" does. That certainly plays into all of it, especially on the dating websites. I've met my fair share of men and women who try to bat way outside of their league on those sites and get angry when it doesn't pan out for them.

And, IMO, men tend to be more whiny about the dating sites because a) they view themselves as more attractive than they are and b) they haven't figured out the numbers game yet. When I used the sites, I messaged many women all across the spectrum, in terms of "attractiveness" . Sometimes I figured I was batting out of my league, sometimes I felt like I was batting below it. But, either way, I got responses and dates, simply because of the volume of messages I was sending out.

I also hear a lot of men say "but men aren't supposed to have to be physically attractive the way women are. Men are visual. It's just biology. So of course we want a beautiful woman but a woman is shallow if she wants a handsome man because that's against biology. Women aren't supposed to go for looks."

I mean that's truncated but it's pretty much a common theme.

[Ruby Slippers]

It's a total myth that women "don't care" about looks and attraction. Women are just as aware. But women tend to rely on men for material support, especially mothers, so other factors are just as important - financial stability, responsibility, reliability.

[regine_phalange]

45 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I also hear a lot of men say "but men aren't supposed to have to be physically attractive the way women are. Men are visual. It's just biology. So of course we want a beautiful woman but a woman is shallow if she wants a handsome man because that's against biology. Women aren't supposed to go for looks."

Of course we are! How is he going to beat off the bears if he's not rugged and strong?  And if he has a good bone structure, that means the kids will have good genes.  It's all practical!

[SumGuy]

3 hours ago, Roswell91 said:

My point is not that there arent women who arent picky about looks there are. But pretty much all  men take it to the next level. 

For them its mostly about looks and nothing else. 

That and a lot of men seem to think the range of looks women are into is narrow, when it is pretty broad...which always comes to mind when someone mentions a movie star or sports idol, mention anyone and have likely met a woman who didn't care for the guys look at all.  Not everyone is buying what the media is selling.

[Roswell91]

2 hours ago, OatsAndHall said:

If I got a "thanks but not thanks" message, it was typically when I asked them to meet or if we'd been chatting for a bit. Chances are they were interested in me when they first responded but met someone else they were more into. No muss, no fuss; just the nature of OLD. To be honest, I only got irritated by it once and that was because I had a lot in common with the woman I was chatting with. We had several good, long conversations but she told me she wasn't into "my look" when I asked her to meet. I asked her what she meant:

"Oh, you know, the long hair, the goatee... It just gives off a grunge vibe that I don't like. You're really good at the conversation side of things but physical attraction is important and I'm not into you in that way."

It would've been nice if she'd mentioned that before I spent three hours chatting with her..

OLD can be brutal at times. But dont think women don't  go through the same stuff.

Im sure if you read all the threads you'll see how they also get ghosted by men who seemed interested in them. 

Theres competition and plenty of options for both men and for women.

[CaliforniaGirl]

21 minutes ago, regine_phalange said:

Of course we are! How is he going to beat off the bears if he's not rugged and strong?  And if he has a good bone structure, that means the kids will have good genes.  It's all practical!

I do worry about bears bursting into my living room. Okay, I concede that you have a point.

And I DO like the idea of a gorgeous chiseled guy fighting a bear. A dude throwing his pocket protector at it just doesn't have the same impact.

[Roswell91]

1 minute ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I do worry about bears bursting into my living room. Okay, I concede that you have a point.

And I DO like the idea of a gorgeous chiseled guy fighting a bear. A dude throwing his pocket protector at it just doesn't have the same impact.

I wish the "haha" emoji was still there. 😢

[CaliforniaGirl]

12 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

That and a lot of men seem to think the range of looks women are into is narrow, when it is pretty broad...which always comes to mind when someone mentions a movie star or sports idol, mention anyone and have likely met a woman who didn't care for the guys look at all.  Not everyone is buying what the media is selling.

I think in general, the reason women are supposedly "flooded" with messages in their inbox (although that famous OKC study showed it was a pretty small percentage who had that many messages) is that guys on OLD are usually advised to use the spaghetti-at-the-wall method. So even if they're only mildly interested, or perhaps not at all but "she'll do in a pinch," they'll throw out a "hey" at like...a zillion women. (And then it's "how come only the ugly obese smoking crackhead single mothers answer me?" - well...'cause you approached them? ** )

In general more women are picky from the outset. They won't give a guy a try unless they're pretty sure they can at least stand to sit across the table from them for a whole cup of coffee's worth of time.

I hear complaints all the time about how women must have inflated egos because they get so many messages. Okay...so be more selective from the start and stop the spaghetti-throwing method and maybe that'll stop, eh? ( ** ETA: the general "you," not SumGuy, who AFAIK is happily hooked up. )

But that just never seems to change so it is what it is.

Edited July 1, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[SumGuy]

7 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

( ** ETA: the general "you," not SumGuy, who AFAIK is happily hooked up. )

Even before never threw spaghetti at the wall, sounds desperate and like one doesn't really know what they want or have to offer.

 All one needs to do is actually talk (and more importantly listen) to women who are doing OLD to know most don't have inflated egos about the whole thing.  They have a whole slew of their own OLD woes, guys with chips on their shoulder are top of the list. 

Granted met a few where it was more like a job interview, would have not been surprised if she had said "dance monkey dance"...but that was usually fun in it's own way...I can be pretty mischievous.  Not certain if that behavior was from inflated ego, I think in some cases yes, or just how they interact and are following some script about making sure he is x, y and z...and they can get kind of judgey if you don't do the same.   

Now if she said she was just trying to see if I was t, i, j and k, as commutation can not be assured and people are so multidimensional,...would have begged her to take me home..does that make me a quantarian? 

Yes pretty happily hooked up is an understatement, but it took several years of OLD before met her, and we happily broke so many "internet rules," life is ours, we live it our way.  

[Ellener]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:41 PM, Zona said:

I think to a large degree, red-pill is just the male version of feminism.

I had to look it up, and read this:

 A common viewpoint on this Reddit is that women want to be dominated by men: “Girls love being dominated by an attractive man. An unattractive man being aggressive is attempted rape.”

That doesn't sound like men's rights or anything healthy in a relationship. Embittered anger in a man is very unattractive to me.

 

[Ellener]

What's a quantarian @SumGuy?

[Fresh_Start]

2 hours ago, Ellener said:

What's a quantarian @SumGuy?

I'm guessing he meant quaternion since he listed a subset of 4 attributes [t, i, j, k].

Just a hunch like Quasimodo.

[SumGuy]

12 hours ago, Fresh_Start said:

I'm guessing he meant quaternion since he listed a subset of 4 attributes [t, i, j, k].

Just a hunch like Quasimodo.

Exactly, a esoteric math/physics reference, except quantarian was a play on words with contrarian....

 

[Weezy1973]

What I’ve noticed (and it may be selective noticing) is that women tend to stay single with the belief that there aren’t any, or enough, quality men.

Whereas men tend to blame themselves for not being attractive enough to attract quality women.

If that’s actually the case, you can see why women could be happier being single. After all it’s the world that’s the problem. Men would not be happy because the problem is themselves, and they would (falsely) think that getting into a relationship would cure their pain (self loathing etc.).

[Fresh_Start]

32 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Exactly, a esoteric math/physics reference, except quantarian was a play on words with contrarian....

What's really funny about that is that I almost told Ellener that you either meant quaternion or contrarian since context clues made either one applicable, but then I thought, "Nah, this guy couldn't have butchered the spelling of contrarian that badly." 😁  

It was too close to my bedtime for that fancy bit of wordplay to have registered as more than a typo, but I was on the right track.  Nice one. 👍

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

. Men would not be happy because the problem is themselves, and they would (falsely) think that getting into a relationship would cure their pain (self loathing etc.).

I would not want to be someone's therapist or 'whipping boy' these days, for sure, but it works the other way too, the men I've met who are perfectly happy with themselves are content without big relationships either.

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

What I’ve noticed (and it may be selective noticing) is that women tend to stay single with the belief that there aren’t any, or enough, quality men.

Whereas men tend to blame themselves for not being attractive enough to attract quality women.

If that’s actually the case, you can see why women could be happier being single. After all it’s the world that’s the problem. Men would not be happy because the problem is themselves, and they would (falsely) think that getting into a relationship would cure their pain (self loathing etc.).

From the woman's perspective, I'm going to disagree. There are shelves and shelves full of books in any self-help section about making ourselves more amazing and worthwhile and fixing our every problem, even ones we never knew we had...but oh, we DO have them, so watch out...

Anyway, there are thousands and thousands of books and seminars and YouTube "gurus" and so on, not to mention family members, who are ready all the time to explain why we're not loved because, well, we're not good enough. Or...just not enough. Even if it's not said in those words, it's implied...all the time...all around us. So I disagree with you, Zona. Now...

Let me say that the following obviously does not apply to all women, but there are some generalities I've noticed over my decades on this planet.

Women pull out all the stops to be "pretty enough." By contrast, men are judged on what they can do...what they choose to do. Being a little ugly is no drawback for a guy (and we ALL know this, please don't start with women wanting Brad Pitt,  look around you...we all know that segment is the "but I want a 10" category...but I digress...)

But back to women. We can work and work and work and work, we can volunteer, be sweet, be intelligent but...uh-oh...If we're not "pretty enough" what good are we? In past generations this was not as huge as it is today in Instagram culture, but it was always there. Today, it's times a hundred. The beauty industry is a multi-billion dollar affair and it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Because we're constantly told, or shown, that we're never enough, we're not pretty enough, we're not young enough, our hair and skin don't look healthy enough, our waists aren't small enough. When you take a group of people and spend loads of money on how to make them feel more insecure, that group is at your disposal and it usually has its wallet open. And its heart, but whatever. Business is business.....

QUICK BREAK HERE to say: Life can be beautiful too, I'm not saying women, or anyone, lives a life of hell, I'm just explaining the elements that make it so not true that women who want relationships, but are alone, can be happy because of how secure we are in ourselves and how we're "better than."

So, carrying on...if you've read this far...

Both males and females suffer from anorexia nervosa but females, exponentially more than males. There are theories that there can be a hormonal tie-in, but we really can't deny that the constant yelling at us from all corners to be more, be better, be worthy - of LOVE, usually (that's the bottom line) - has its effect, to the detriment and sometimes death of millions of women and girls.

We're supposed to also have challenging careers, be self-sufficient, but also be "feminine," be feminist but just the right kind (the specific "wave" is even outlined for us), we are supposed to not be shallow and look for the good in everyone else, even as we're judged before we've spoken a single word to the person across the room watching us walk in.

"There are no great men" (which IS a constant refrain, because for many women, they seem to find men who keep wanting to "date up" and "score" a gorgeous, young, ideal woman - finding a guy who doesn't want this, but is also solid, and at least nominally our match can be a challenge) - anyway, "there are no men good enough" is no consolation to a lonely woman. In fact, suicide or attempted suicide is significantly more often due to relationships in a woman than in a man (that's not saying no men attempt suicide due to relationship problems, but for women, they're "central"...that's drummed into us from birth).

We are taught and told that relationships are our everything and if we don't have them we're supposed to be depressed and be failures. We're shown that every single place we look. Movies, books. Our friends. Everywhere, everybody. Even if we wouldn't have felt that way, we're "supposed" to. So then we feel like a failure at that, too, for "not trying hard enough" or being "just a cold fish."

You're wrong in your assessment that women think we're all that and a bag of chips and therefore it's all good if we never marry. Message boards are filled to overflowing with women in despair over not having a relationship where they feel loved AND where they can love. We want both, perhaps because we're expected to give both. All the time. 

But also we're supposed to look like 9s...that's okay, we don't HAVE to be 10s...some very average guys would even give us a shot if we're only a solid 7+ or 8-. You see this stuff all the time...

A percentage of women, like a percentage of men, just don't feel like going through the work anymore. We just want to have the FUN now, after decades of trying to be the best we can be, all the time, because that's expected. What if we want to just have fun?

That's not okay, though...we must be full of ourselves...too confident...

Yeah, nah, dude.

AGAIN. This is not ALL women. But these messages ARE sent to ALL women, by society, our families, everybody. Many of us just do want relationships; that's a natural thing for both sexes. But for a few...just...nah. And it may be because the woman thinks nobody is good enough for her. But be real, that's usually the reason men have too, once you peel back the layers. It always seems to come down to, "but the women who like me are fat..." It's *almost always* deep down because the guy thinks women, society, and other external things are the problem.

****

As for men thinking they did something wrong...

Yeah. So do women. 

There's a self-help or "empowerment" book for our every failing, even those we didn't know we had until some author said we did.

So...that's my essay. The TL:DR is...as someone who has experience being a woman, you're wrong. Women suffer thinking we're not good enough, just like men do. Outwardly we hear "no, you're beautiful!" and "You are an AMAZING catch!" but when you see that being told to every single woman in every single family and on every single media outlet, including the most unappealing, are also "beautiful" come on...it's not like we're going to believe that's the reason we can't find a relationship...because we're too beautiful. I see women say this and I know it's false bravado.

Who SAYS they're great all the time, except for a person who is afraid he or she isn't great?

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Weezy1973]

@CaliforniaGirl no doubt women feel more pressure to look good than men do. I suspect it’s more of a biological imperative than cultural, seeing as every culture now and historically has valued women’s beauty. 
 

But the common refrain that I hear from a lot of single women, on this site and anecdotally, is that there aren’t any good guys. Or at least guys that are good enough. And keep in mind, being single is an exception. Most women and men are in relationships. Most single men fully acknowledge that there are plenty of quality women, it’s just they can’t attract them. That’s the difference.

Read through the struggling threads on here. Rare is the case where a woman complains that she can’t get the guy she wants because she’s not good enough or attractive enough. In fact there’s a common thread that pops up with women saying they can’t get a guy because they’re too good and guys are intimidated! You don’t see that from guys...

[CaliforniaGirl]

19 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

@CaliforniaGirl no doubt women feel more pressure to look good than men do. I suspect it’s more of a biological imperative than cultural, seeing as every culture now and historically has valued women’s beauty. 
 

But the common refrain that I hear from a lot of single women, on this site and anecdotally, is that there aren’t any good guys. Or at least guys that are good enough. And keep in mind, being single is an exception. Most women and men are in relationships. Most single men fully acknowledge that there are plenty of quality women, it’s just they can’t attract them. That’s the difference.

Read through the struggling threads on here. Rare is the case where a woman complains that she can’t get the guy she wants because she’s not good enough or attractive enough. In fact there’s a common thread that pops up with women saying they can’t get a guy because they’re too good and guys are intimidated! You don’t see that from guys...

Oh, I know. I've seen it. I believe you.

But...when women want a man who's a "great guy," sure, they want to be sexually attracted (who doesn't?) but it often includes a guy who will respect them...love them...and that is very, very lacking for a whole lot of women. Because don't fool yourself, the men are thinking the same thing. "I have a good job, I'm no more than 20 pounds overweight, why don't I deserve a 10? Who sees who I am on the inside?" And we're supposed to be somehow better than, well, an average woman. Otherwise we're the ones being complained about. "How come the athletic runners who are 25 never go for me?" Many women wind up with these men by default...it happens...and...wow...how that feels...just...yikes. (I always ran from guys who had that aura but I've seen this so many times...oh, he won't commit...he says mean things...he doesn't want sex...then people just boldly ask the woman, "Well, did you gain weight?")

For us (not all of us, okay...but many  ), "great guy" also means how he feels about us. Not "what can he do for me? While I sit here being the better half?"

And you would be absolutely flabbergasted how difficult that can be for some women to find. Or not, if you read threads around here...

A segement will chase that perfect-10 guy but it's easy to see, just looking around you, but the majority of women who want a "great guy" - just want a guy who's like them: cares about career/work (well, usually...or often), wants the same things in life, treats them really well/respectfully/in-love-ish. But on equal footing, not: I am not attracted to him, but he just keeps chasing me....And THAT'S what's so amazingly and staggeringly elusive. It would seem like that would be the easiest thing in the world to find. It isn't. Just look at how men talk about women around here. How we're all fat and our market value is only good for X amount of years and on and on. 

We don't really, actually think we're better than really, actually great guys (good job, sexually appealing at least in some way, caring, fun, wants the same things in life). We're not stupid. We know that while we're being flooded with "but you're beautiful, you're amazing!" messages on social media, or from friends, they're saying exactly the same things to that one jobless friend who is incredibly boring, eats Doritos day in and day out and is never nice to anybody and is kind of a chore. She's "beautiful and amazing!" too. Come on. It's not like we don't realize we're more or less being given a participation medal even if we're the kid who got hit with the dodgeball a hundred times and was the last one picked for the team... 😛

Women can SAY "I'm amazing and I know it!" but...why do you think people do that? Especiallly if it's excessive...

Who do you know who says they're amazing all the time?

Secure people?

I'm guessing not.

Edited July 2, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Weezy1973]

@CaliforniaGirl I agree with most of what you’re saying, but what it comes down to, in context is this thread, is that one of the reasons some women may be happier staying single then men is because they attribute that to a lack of quality men, rather than something lacking in themselves. 
 

Just re-read your post above. You mention how “elusive” and “lacking” those types of guys are. It doesn’t really matter how you define the guys.

 

Just think in general, are people happier living without something they know is plentiful, but they’re not good enough to get? Or would people be happier believing that that thing is rare and hard to find for most people? 

[CaliforniaGirl]

Just now, Weezy1973 said:

@CaliforniaGirl I agree with most of what you’re saying, but what it comes down to, in context is this thread, is that one of the reasons some women may be happier staying single then men is because they attribute that to a lack of quality men, rather than something lacking in themselves. 
 

Just re-read your post above. You mention how “elusive” and “lacking” those types of guys are. It doesn’t really matter how you define the guys.

 

Just think in general, are people happier living without something they know is plentiful, but they’re not good enough to get? Or would people be happier believing that that thing is rare and hard to find for most people? 

Well...what I'm trying to say is that what is elusive and lacking for some women is the relationship as a whole, feeling wanted, respected...not just "he makes X at his job..." I don't know if that's clear...sometimes I babble.

In general I never found connections elusive but I know that at the same time, I was probably automatically discounting the guys I wasn't going to have that with and just dating the ones I had a feeling I could go the distance with. 

I think the "rare gem" phenomenon is more a guy thing than a woman thing...  But I hear what you're saying.

I do agree that a percentage of women really do have extraordinarily ridiculous "requirements" and are therefore alone and I say to them the same thing I say to their male counterparts, who are also out there. The most likely thing for both groups isn't that they actually want, or even believe in a guy who's out-of-this-world extraordinary because that's who's "good enough" for them. Rather, the feeling I have ALWAYS gotten deep down in these cases is that the person really did not want a relationship...not deep down...so they were putting up every possible stumbling block.

I'm not denying that women and men who want ridiculous attributes in their SOs exist. I mean I agree with you there.

BUT the thread was about women as a whole (but small) category who are not longer looking...I said way back when, many divorces just want the fun without the excessive responsibility...but that was of course shouted down  and hyperbole stepped in. And now here we are.

[CaliforniaGirl]

^ But...either way...the intimation was that women who are alone because they think they can't find that great guy, are still happy because they (the women) think they're awesome. And that's why some women are content to be alone.

From my experience - just mine - no, women in this situation who do want a partner are NOT happy. I've seen the despair. It's awful.

But then there are women who really do want to be alone. (Or...not married, anyway. Some committed-to-not marrying people do date, after all...)

And they're happy being alone. Well, unmarried. (Is it interesting to anyone else that a woman who isn't married is automatically said to be "alone"?)

Apparently this really is such a weird concept that it's taken up 21 pages of arguments so far.