do you just eventually give up?

[Cookiesandough]

Kk I see... ty. I’m not one for trivialities or pop culture  either, but to me there are ways to be interesting and talk about deeper subjects.  Some people can have real passion for it  and make it interesting. Some people are just so detached from their own body it seems like, so when they’re discussing it, the convo seems very dry/wooden. In addition, although we can’t easily change our interests,   we can be interested in others interest(s) and try to engage them too... even act interested to an extent. Maybe think about it 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[ZA Dater]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2020 at 8:24 PM, Emilie Jolie said:

That's how you make friends 🥴 You need to see a clinical sexologist, I think. Yeah I know, I said that a few times, but I've had no come back from you on it. FYI, a sexologist is NOT a therapist; it's a trained practitioner who specialises in human sexual behaviour, or lack thereof. Google what they do and give it some thought. What do you have to lose? They've heard  it all already.

Is there anything wrong with wanting friends? Its perhaps a more realistic outcome for me than anything else. You forget the only decent experiences I have had were friend zone ones.

 

[ZA Dater]

18 hours ago, basil67 said:

The vibe could also be called chemistry.  But I guess you also find that term nauseating 😬.  Is feels like an invisible cable drawing the two of you physically closer together...and you're both a bit sexually aroused with it.   Without chemistry, a meeting will, at best, only ever result in a friendship.  If no ladies have said anything about wanting a second date with you, then they didn't feel chemistry with you.  

You say that you're not a mind/vibe reader.  Can you tell if a friend is sad even if they aren't overtly showing emotion?   Can you walk into a room and feel tension even though you may not have heard what was being said?    Likewise, can you walk into a party and feel a buzz in the air?  That's the vibe.  If you feel these things, what term would you use instead?

Which once again brings me back to looks....it all just boils down to looks....seemingly.

I don't overly show emotion, lots of reasons for it but I can pick it up in people I know well. I generally dislike parties but I am always the outlier there, the guy who never has a date and consequently never fits in and even if there are single ladies, there are always other guys who win that race so I don't really bother because I guess they have more "chemistry" and you are right for me its BS term which is polite way of saying the person is ugly.

When I sit on a date and the person leans in, smiles, laughs, talks freely am I suppose to think its a good date, sure I do but the outcome....never ever positive.

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Is there anything wrong with wanting friends? Its perhaps a more realistic outcome for me than anything else. You forget the only decent experiences I have had were friend zone ones.

 

You have agonized for 36 pages now about not being able to land a thin pretty girlfriend and now you're wondering why we don't seem to think it's okay for you to just want women as friends?

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

From what ZA has written over the years his interests are Supercars, politics and history and current events, he has no interest in small talk and trivia.
He doesn't drink or party or go to clubs so I guess he has no interest in drinking stories or tales about wild nights out at a club or how high everyone got at a party one night.

Quite true on most counts.  I absolutely detest the bold part. I have had to sit through hours of this with friends and to me its irrelevant nonsense, I couldn't care less who hooked up with and who so and so is seeing. However the one advantage of this nonsense is it gave me a good window on what dating really is and how it seemingly works in that environment.

Everyone is free to do what they want and its not me to judge but I can choose not to partake. Heck, I have even been to some of these supposed wild nights at the club and the appeal just isn't there, not even the slightest. Perhaps the only interesting part is the myriad of attractive ladies in various minimal outfits and the long line of "jocks" or those carrying large wallets with expensive watches to match. Its amazing to me how easy those to subsets have it but even more amazing is how successful they are, well I hear the stories afterwards.

I have been to the parties and the boozy lunches but not matter how many times I attend these they never seem to appeal to me much more. So logic would say someone who likes that probably wouldn't be a match for me so I am forced to find people who don't do this too often but even when I do and it takes a LOOONG time to find them, it still doesn't work.

So really what I am doing is simply browsing.

[CaliforniaGirl]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Which once again brings me back to looks....it all just boils down to looks....seemingly.

I don't overly show emotion, lots of reasons for it but I can pick it up in people I know well. I generally dislike parties but I am always the outlier there, the guy who never has a date and consequently never fits in and even if there are single ladies, there are always other guys who win that race so I don't really bother because I guess they have more "chemistry" and you are right for me its BS term which is polite way of saying the person is ugly.

When I sit on a date and the person leans in, smiles, laughs, talks freely am I suppose to think its a good date, sure I do but the outcome....never ever positive.

 

If she was leaning in and showing enthusiasm and being positive and it was obviously a date then it's unlikely she was horrified all that time by your looks. If somehow it didn't end well, as you say, then this scenario was not based on looks, unless your skin suddenly began to melt off in the middle of the date or something.

Edited May 28, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

You have agonized for 36 pages now about not being able to land a thin pretty girlfriend and now you're wondering why we don't seem to think it's okay for you to just want women as friends?

Well I'd rather have a slim attractive friend than a GF I don't find attractive, you might not see the logic of that. Would I like someone I find desirable, yes but lets be frank and honest, that's a remote possibility at best. The telling thing is I cant ever pull off the friend thing so how am I supposed to get more than that?

There is a reason I shy away from what the poster makes reference to, it just shows me up to be even more inexperienced and awkward so if I am going to go there then it MUST be someone I like overall.

[CaliforniaGirl]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

Well I'd rather have a slim attractive friend than a GF I don't find attractive, you might not see the logic of that. Would I like someone I find desirable, yes but lets be frank and honest, that's a remote possibility at best. The telling thing is I cant ever pull off the friend thing so how am I supposed to get more than that?

There is a reason I shy away from what the poster makes reference to, it just shows me up to be even more inexperienced and awkward so if I am going to go there then it MUST be someone I like overall.

Okay, so you have your answer. No more dating, and just have friends.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

If she was leaning in and showing enthusiasm and being positive and it was obviously a date then it's unlikely she was horrified all that time by your looks. If somehow it didn't end well, as you say, then this scenario was not based on looks, unless your skin suddenly began to melt off in the middle of the date or something.

It was based I believe on the simple: well I am sure I can find someone else better. I keep harking on this particular date because it was one of the VERY few times I thought "wow this could really work, I really enjoy her company and this is going well".

I suppose the warning should have been two days before when she hinted at coming over even though she hadn't met me yet, she also seemed to like my looks, which is a first.

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

It was based I believe on the simple: well I am sure I can find someone else better. I keep harking on this particular date because it was one of the VERY few times I thought "wow this could really work, I really enjoy her company and this is going well".

I suppose the warning should have been two days before when she hinted at coming over even though she hadn't met me yet, she also seemed to like my looks, which is a first.

It has been 36 pages of this. You refuse to consider therapy to address any of this. Literally every aspect of all of this has been combed over by dozens of people for weeks now. 

Yes, stop dating.

Find a great therapist. 

 

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Okay, so you have your answer. No more dating, and just have friends.

Which is about as impossible so the two are basically the same. I have never been able to make many friends so my comment to you is I think this is why I struggle so much with dating. There is a lot of truth I suppose in the dreaded vibe BS because I have sort of seen it with friends of mine,  they do get that sort of attention whereas I tend to get more utilitarian sort of attention from the same ladies. Telling but I just tell myself its, ok, keep my head high and don't let it get to me. Thankfully I have managed over the last year to remove myself from these situations for the most part.

I don't blame ladies for picking these guys over me, I simply accept it which is why when I am asked to go to lunch with two of them and 4 ladies I know its a pointless because I can never compare to the other two and ostensibly these ladies will just compete between them for the two guys. It must be great to have that sort of value but the jaded part of me pretty much says they get that for being fun, whereas I am not.

I am ok with introspection, I'd rather see things as they are than see a sugar coated version of a fantasy.

 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl0 said:

I don't understand why you wouldn't do the arrangement thing, tbh. From what I've read, you're mainly looking for the experience of dating someone conventionally attractive who can carry a conversation and bring you out of your shell,  not even real connection with another person or anything. Maybe I'm mixed up about this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The struggle with wanting what we don't have will always be, but I once read an interesting perspective on it. This person said that when you struggle with what you can't have/acheive, it's because deep down you know it is achievable, but you're not changing things to make it so. Maybe you can see yourself actualized into this person who can be what a woman you want would want, but you haven't tried to change to reach it. Just an idea. All you can do is keep searching and try to stay positive. Wishing you the best.

I have had a few arrangement dates but the fact is they are very false and ultimately pointless. However the experiences are far better, these ladies are far more confident, for the most far more interesting. Dinner is where I draw the line though.

Sure, I have been trying to change things for years and have been throwing the book at this but the results aren't really any better. Oh well can just keep going, thanks for the wishes.

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Which is about as impossible so the two are basically the same. I have never been able to make many friends so my comment to you is I think this is why I struggle so much with dating. There is a lot of truth I suppose in the dreaded vibe BS because I have sort of seen it with friends of mine,  they do get that sort of attention whereas I tend to get more utilitarian sort of attention from the same ladies. Telling but I just tell myself its, ok, keep my head high and don't let it get to me. Thankfully I have managed over the last year to remove myself from these situations for the most part.

I don't blame ladies for picking these guys over me, I simply accept it which is why when I am asked to go to lunch with two of them and 4 ladies I know its a pointless because I can never compare to the other two and ostensibly these ladies will just compete between them for the two guys. It must be great to have that sort of value but the jaded part of me pretty much says they get that for being fun, whereas I am not.

I am ok with introspection, I'd rather see things as they are than see a sugar coated version of a fantasy.

 

introspection has not helped. Dozens of pages of it right here...you're no closer to happiness. I don't want to harp so I'll say it one last time because I just can't see you ever climbing out of all this otherwise. You need help from a professional, a trained, impartial party who sees you, listens to you, is right there. Not a dating coach, not people on the internet, not more going on circles. You need REAL help. Not dozens of more pages of the same stuff in a forum. If you want to start living, if you actually want to fix all this, that is your hope. Please consider it.

[MeadowFlower]

I haven't read this entire thread, but it seems like ZA, that you have these high expectations on what a woman you date should be. Most people have things they want in a soulmate, but perhaps, just perhaps, you have expectations that don't allow for people to just be human. 

[Emilie Jolie]

56 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Is there anything wrong with wanting friends? Its perhaps a more realistic outcome for me than anything else. You forget the only decent experiences I have had were friend zone ones.

 

Nope, nothing wrong. That's not what online dating apps (operative words in bold) are for though, but you know what, you do you. 👌🤞

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Which once again brings me back to looks....it all just boils down to looks....seemingly.......<snip> and you are right for me its BS term which is polite way of saying the person is ugly.

You're projecting.  Although YOU need looks to feel chemistry, it doesn't mean that everyone does.

And what you've conveniently forgotten is that they've already seen your photo when they accept the date.  So, your looks aren't the issue here.   Emotional connection, flirting, laughter are all very much part of the equation for building chemistry.  So while you may have interesting conversation with the woman, if those other three elements aren't there, it's not going to get off the ground.

[Foxhall]

Im just curious, Za Dater,  I have not seen you post on any other thread here other than your own dating issues ones (perhaps I am wrong),

(of what relevance is that one may wonder!)

there may be posters who are interested in hearing your thoughts on Covid 19 or whatever other random topic that comes up here,

what it suggests possibly is that you are quite one dimensional in your thoughts, tunnel vision almost that you are focused on one particular thing, very much in your own bubble

you clearly are a smart guy but you are unwilling to converse or share your knowledge unless there is some definite benefit in it for yourself.

I suspect you may carry this over into real life and I question how engaging you are in your daily interactions and particularly how engaging are you with the women you date,

do you lose interest in the date very quickly if they do not tick all your boxes,  I imagine there is an amount of frustration too at past disappointments and you probably have a shield up not to get too close to a woman for fear of being let down again.

I think being prepared to share your knowledge whenever you are on dates or just general conversation, by being more friendly and having an attitude of enjoying and been happy to talk to people, being happy to open up more, be happy to hear the other person stories and be a good listener in that sense.

I imagine it is more a problem of you being too guarded than being unfriendly, so maybe try to loosen up on that a bit,

not everyone is necessarily going to make it easy for you, plenty of other people and some of your dates are shy too, so you have to take the initiative and be friendly/cheerful outlook yourself.

 

 

 

[Emilie Jolie]

3 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

introspection has not helped. Dozens of pages of it right here...you're no closer to happiness. I don't want to harp so I'll say it one last time because I just can't see you ever climbing out of all this otherwise. You need help from a professional, a trained, impartial party who sees you, listens to you, is right there. Not a dating coach, not people on the internet, not more going on circles. You need REAL help. Not dozens of more pages of the same stuff in a forum. If you want to start living, if you actually want to fix all this, that is your hope. Please consider it.

I literally wrote the same thing 15 pages / 11 days ago. I suspect plenty other posters have too.

Personally, I feel I've come full circle. I've obviously been softening as I've settled into my 40s reading back some of the comments I made. I'm cringing myself out, but whatever (quite a humbling exercise to read back some of your posts, actually).  In real life, I'd have dragged ZA's ass to a specialist but on here, I don't know how useful these circular arguments and avalanches of contradictions actually are.

ZA, I wish you well on your quest to find mutual attraction / a friend / whatever you're looking for.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I literally wrote the same thing 15 pages / 11 days ago. I suspect plenty other posters have too.

Personally, I feel I've come full circle. I've obviously been softening as I've settled into my 40s reading back some of the comments I made. I'm cringing myself out, but whatever (quite a humbling exercise to read back some of your posts, actually).  In real life, I'd have dragged ZA's ass to a specialist but on here, I don't know how useful these circular arguments and avalanches of contradictions actually are.

ZA, I wish you well on your quest to find mutual attraction / a friend / whatever you're looking for.

 

 

 

 

This was both sensible and sensitive. In life, sometimes we need both. ❤️

[basil67]

7 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Im just curious, Za Dater,  I have not seen you post on any other thread here other than your own dating issues ones (perhaps I am wrong),

(of what relevance is that one may wonder!)

there may be posters who are interested in hearing your thoughts on Covid 19 or whatever other random topic that comes up here,

I would love to see ZA post on some of the random topics.  

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater looks aren’t the only thing that matters. Ugly people find love and relationships all the time! And we know plenty of good looking people that struggle:..

[ZA Dater]

15 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Im just curious, Za Dater,  I have not seen you post on any other thread here other than your own dating issues ones (perhaps I am wrong),

(of what relevance is that one may wonder!)

there may be posters who are interested in hearing your thoughts on Covid 19 or whatever other random topic that comes up here,

what it suggests possibly is that you are quite one dimensional in your thoughts, tunnel vision almost that you are focused on one particular thing, very much in your own bubble

you clearly are a smart guy but you are unwilling to converse or share your knowledge unless there is some definite benefit in it for yourself.

I suspect you may carry this over into real life and I question how engaging you are in your daily interactions and particularly how engaging are you with the women you date,

do you lose interest in the date very quickly if they do not tick all your boxes,  I imagine there is an amount of frustration too at past disappointments and you probably have a shield up not to get too close to a woman for fear of being let down again.

I think being prepared to share your knowledge whenever you are on dates or just general conversation, by being more friendly and having an attitude of enjoying and been happy to talk to people, being happy to open up more, be happy to hear the other person stories and be a good listener in that sense.

I imagine it is more a problem of you being too guarded than being unfriendly, so maybe try to loosen up on that a bit,

not everyone is necessarily going to make it easy for you, plenty of other people and some of your dates are shy too, so you have to take the initiative and be friendly/cheerful outlook yourself.

I don't think I am smarter than anyone at all. The problem I find in general is sure I am only to happy to listen to someone tell me about their favourite things and past times, I once sat a date with an au pair and she spent an hour telling me about the kids she looks after, I asked questions, she told me about the animal shelter she volunteers at. I took an interest in what she said but you know how many questions she asked about me: none. This happens often in fact I went through a stage where I just only talked about whatever the date wanted to talk about which I guess is fine but if she isn't interest in me then why bother.

Happy to share knowledge but in the dating scenario and in life in general I have just become tired of doing so because who really cares what I think about US politics or COVID or the world economy. I am busy reading a really interesting book on Nelson Mandela at the moment, well try bring that up in a date conversation, just finished another on Chernobyl again try talking about that on a date. From a young age the world interested me, leaders interested me, how they think, their experiences and the adversities they faced. Try being up FD Roosevelt on a date and see what that goes. That's the problem really I find myself with knowledge but useless knowledge, Joe big muscle over there can mix a drink, tell you about different drinks and generally goof around, he gets the ladies laughing and smiling...me not so much.

What can do is make Joe look very apathetic but that's irrelevant because she is going home with him because he is fun and sure I might find Miss whoever 5 years later, now a single mom, Joe having run away for his next conquest and then suddenly, well then suddenly I perhaps get a hello or a match on OLD perhaps. Not interested sorry.

I always TRY to be friendly on dates and in general, always try make them smile and laugh, even if I need to sometimes pretend to be the happy go lucky type guy. If I could say ok cool this I what I am going to do on this date, this has worked before so I will use it again then at least I would be able to say well ok I tried something positive but it didn't work. I don't have that positive, its like trying to fry an egg without a pan.

Somewhere along the line I decided the people I might work with and those I simply wouldn't work with, so I usually try find outliers like me, people who don't really fit into the mould too much and this is difficult to find, very actually or I will try with anyone who gives me the time of day on OLD in the name of trying to find some way of actually feeling like I am making progress.

The problem too is that I don't really know what I actually want. The only good thing I know is friend zone but then I wonder well maybe what would more than that be like. Then I look around me and every friend I know barring one has endless relationship issues and then I ask, do I really want that? I wont lie the guys who can go and pick up a lady for a night of fun, I wouldn't mind being a guy like that but again morally could I? Probably not. Just they get that attention I really want.

Often I walk back dates and look at what I did, try work on where I think I made mistakes, try see where I can improve but sometimes I am left with the sense I couldn't read the person so had no idea what they wanted to begin with.

One date I went on with a Swedish tourist, she wanted Sushi, I don't really like it and she teased me and this turned into a fun afternoon of us ordering lots of it and me trying all of it, was just a great time for me and she was really nice and I could be really honest. For me that was a nice way to spend a few hours, that's really my point if I am going to date I must actually enjoy spending time with the person and yes that's a two way street I realise but believe it or not I don't lack date ideas and activity ideas.

In still believe nice begets nice in the way we interact with others and that's pretty much my approach even when I am not treated well. I do sometimes think ladies want super assertive guys, honestly I spent most working days having to be assertive and fixing things that when I am away from work I just want to relax. Good example the one day I met someone and I cant recall how and we spent some time together and I had an work issue and had to be very assertive on the phone "oh I love it when you talk like that".

Irrespective of my ultimate dating fortune I guess there is one thing which remains true, I can keep looking.

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The problem too is that I don't really know what I actually want.

Irrespective of my ultimate dating fortune I guess there is one thing which remains true, I can keep looking.

One of the problems is you don’t know what you want, although I don’t think that’s actually true. Deep down you do know what you want, but you’re afraid to admit it. You want to be loved just for who you are.

 

But I think you have such low self worth, or put another way, you don’t think you’re worth being loved just the way you are, you just choose to be ambivalent instead of going after something concrete like a long term relationship.

 

Until you resolve this - and I agree with others that it probably will need a professional - you will continue cycling around and around as you have been. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

Everyone, this won't end until we stop giving suggestions. They've all been given. Not telling anyone what to do, just stating the obvious.

[basil67]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Happy to share knowledge but in the dating scenario and in life in general I have just become tired of doing so because who really cares what I think about US politics or COVID or the world economy. 

ZA we asked if you would join us in our random off topic chats.  Yet you turned the invite into a rant about dating.  What just happened?