So many things....

[salparadise]

On 3/30/2020 at 12:21 PM, PinDrop said:

Cheating is obviously a deal-breaker. No doubt. I mean, I get a pass on bailing because of that alone, but then, if there's psychological damage that leads to the behavior... aren't we supposed to weather that? [...] I'm already checked out (I think?). It's a moral dilemma now!? This part is hard in a different way. Where before, it was visceral, emotional, it's now conceptual, or a question of ethics. 

 

First let me say that I'm sorry for the pain and suffering this has caused you. I won't go on about it, but I wouldn't wish this mess, or the way you discover it, on anyone. 

I was going to encourage you to leave the door open to potential reconciliation after an appropriate time to process, given her seemingly sincere remorse and being straight about owning it and all. But this new thing, Part II, of buying and using methamphetamine casts it in a much different light, esp. given that your career is in medicine. To address the questions you asked (quoted), no we are not ethically bound to give free passes if there is a psychological issue underlying extremely unacceptable behavior. If that were the case no one would ever be responsible for anything, because all behavior is an expression of psychological/neurological processes. 

In practice, many [probably most] people do stand by a spouse with certain types of mental disorders, such as depression, anxiety, perhaps even some more serious ones like schizophrenia. But there are other psychological disorders that are virtually never forgiven or tolerated, such as malignant narcissism, borderline (BPD), sociopathy, etc. But in your wife's case, it seems that she went off the rails for no discernible reason beyond nihilism and  recreational debauchery. Surely, any psychologist worth his fee would be able to come up with some sort of underlying maladjustment, but short of a brain tumor, that doesn't excuse such behaviors or imply that she should get a pass. And I seriously doubt that after a few uses she qualifies as an "addict" by the traditional definition. I do wonder though, if the drug played a role in her choosing to bang a stranger on your couch, in front of cameras that she was aware of. That was so irrational and self sabotaging that it's almost unbelievable. I also wonder how this female friend of hers factored into all of this.

Marriage is a contract with obligations on both sides, as opposed to the kind of unconditional commitment we have for our children. I don't think anyone would seriously question the decision to eject rather than flying this one into the ground. Both transgressions were serious betrayals that she consciously chose.

Again, I'm sorry for what you're having to endure. It's going to hurt for quite awhile, but eventually things will normalize as you learn to accept what happened as inexplicable, and to know yourself again as a single man. You have to grieve the loss, and that means feeling it fully in the now so that you can move on from it later. Take good care of yourself- and don't move on the PA until you've fully equilibrated.

 

[S2B]

I can tell you I’ve helped almost 200 people recover who wanted to.

of all the ones hooked on Meth only ONE has stayed sober/clean long term. Maybe two that were on heroin. Those three that succeeded really really were desperate to get clean and were completely willing to DO ANYTHING and everything to stay clean.

meth hasn’t had great odds from my first hand experience over the past 12 years.

if nothing else check out Al Anon - if you wish to help/seek support for yourself. 

[S2B]

If you haven’t, move money and cancel her credit cards. Leave her a tiny bit in an account she can access.

if you don’t protect yourself from her ability to spend you may find out she accessed every penny available to her. Do not think she won’t!

[Marc878]

If it were me I’d see an attorney first then secure all my financials.

Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving. Upfront a lot just want them back without thinking what they’d be getting back. Right now you only know the tip of the iceberg. You’ll never be able to trust her again. Plus you could get a repeat down the road. The capability certainly is there.

Id file and just let her go. She’s gone anyway.

[Marc878]

S2B is correct. There is a very low recovery rate for meth users.

Cut your losses now or you’ll be in for a long and painful road staying in this mess.

Shes just in self protection mode at the moment but that won’t last.

You can’t fix her. She’ll just drag you down with her.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Marc878

[PinDrop]

I haven't had the time to sit down and communicate. I have this thing about being as precise in my speech as I can, so blabbing on a phone is hard for me. I have to be sitting down and typing. 

I heard what all of you were saying over the last few days. I've gotten on board with the advice of providing treatment and then moving on. I wanted to quote each of you, but that's WAY too much, and everyone is helping. I did my very best to remember all the advice here as I went through the day. I may be going off the reservation somewhat, but here we are. Reality check.

Okay. I'm on a rescue mission. It's something that I know how to do, mentally. Everyone who knows about this train wreck is on board, well, because there's nothing to lose. People who I trust. I need to know from the people who really know. Am I crazy for what I'm about to do? 

We all know that meth rewires a person's brain pretty damn fast. You've got to catch them early because the recovery rate drops precipitously as days go by. We're talking about an almost instant psychological addiction with physical addiction following quickly afterwards with continued use. Even if you get people into treatment early, they're going to have to fight an uphill battle. Most treatments don't work long term. There are so many factors involved, and the will-power of the patient has to be strong and consistent for the rest of their lives, or they could relapse at any time... unless you can "fix" what meth has rewired. Basically, as S2B has attested to, you really can't "fix" that rewiring. They've got one foot in hell for the rest of their lives.

There's a medical facility in Europe that treats various psychological problems, including PTSD and severe addictions using certain psychoactive substances such as psilocybin. They may be able to "fix" what meth has rewired. There's something about psychoactive substances that can allow an experienced clinician to assist the patient in somehow "forgetting" their addiction. It's something like that. It's "experimental", but it's been "experimental" for decades. Psychedelics are politically incorrect, I suppose. I know a couple of brothers from the Corps who were successfully treated for PTSD, and spoke to one yesterday for quite some time. I then spoke to someone who spoke to someone and got my wife cleared for admission (after medical screening). They're optimistic, and they've treated such cases before, but not enough of them to be able to give a general prognosis. That's about the best that they can say, "optimistic", until they admit my wife. It's a shot in the dark.

It probably sounds like I'm leaving out her reactions to all of this, but she was hysterical a couple of days back, so her doctor (Not me. Never treat yourself or family) has her on anti-depressants now, so there's that. There's probably a little filtering going on in my noggin as well. I don't want her hysterics invading this place. It's just the same junk you all have seen and heard again and again. You're not missing anything but a bunch of triggers. She went from the initial chaotic refusal to acknowledge reality, to blaming people and things and whatever... Never me, though. Not directly. 

Hey... I've read a bunch here. You people aren't stupid, and as such, I'm well-educated as to what remorse is, as opposed to being sorry for being caught, etc... Over the last few days, I thought that I saw remorse. Not that it would have changed the course of things. Some things can't be unseen, but it would have helped soften the edges for both of us. The problem is, what "feelings" provoke the appearance of remorse in a meth head? What is her remorse right now? It's not something that I can trust, that's for damned sure.

Why do we try to work out such things on our way to "it doesn't matter anyway"?

Here's how I spelled it out for her. It's over. Her choices led to this. I told her that if I allowed my emotions, at this point, love and familiarity- already broken things, to dictate to me now what is right for future Me, it would be a disaster. Rationally speaking, I know that I will never, ever, get over this. Never. It will always be there, ready to spoil an intimate occasion, or distract me from some task at hand. Either betrayal, to a man or to a drug, is enough to make trust a fragile thing for the rest of our lives. Both? Nada. I'm not having that. It's over. She had best set herself to fixing herself, because she's going to need a fixed self to move out into the world without me. I think that I expressed the hopelessness of anything "us" ever happening again. Wow. That hurts to type worse than it hurt to say. Whatever. 

She's screwed up, fragile and hurting but I can't lie to her. Telling the truth is seldom the easiest of the options available, but seldom does telling the truth make things worse. An option was that I should play the loving, caring, forgiving husband until/if she gets fixed enough, and then dump her. What's the honor in that, to construct a false reality and yank it from her just as she thinks she's seeing the light at the end of the tunnel? No, I'm speaking the truth in love, whatever broken version of "love" is running in my punch-drunk brain at the moment. I would want to know what I was up against. She'd suspect anyway. I want her to face the future head on. I will be.

I believe that I have a duty to do my best to rescue my wife. That doesn't mean that what she did doesn't count. 

I've been involved in rescuing "allies" who were little more than cruel psychopaths hiding behind religious fanaticism. They loved killing but you could see that they like hurting people more. They world would have been a better place if we could have just ignored their calls. Yeah. Let's put our lives in danger for more of that. I would have been okay listening to their communications fade to silence... We went out there and did our duty because we made promises. We had obligations. I get it. "Look at the bigger picture". 

My wife betrayed me, but she isn't so bad that I should listen to her communications fade to silence. She will surely die without help. She has nobody. I have an obligation to rescue her. Who else would if not me and those who love me? I don't have to keep her. I just have to put forth the effort to save her as long as she's willing to save herself.

So that. I think there's a level of sacrifice that I need to make here, but that doesn't mean that I'm thinking "happily ever after" when she's miraculously "cured". I really want to believe "happily ever after" at times. We play so many mind games with ourselves. That's not possible. I'll never trust her enough to really love her again. 

This is all so totally screwed up. I feel detached in a way, at times. It's nothing new to you, right? Detached, because reality is too much too intense right now. Doom is in the air though. Some of you know what I'm talking about. I have a suspicion that all of this suppressed emotional baggage is going to hit me at precisely the wrong time, or there's something I haven't thought about, something I missed... I guess that a part of having your world upturned is that sense of impending doom. Everything is instantly more complicated, more emotional... you can't think of everything! 

I guess that I don't have to think of everything. I have you.

Is it weird that I'm not full of hate? I can't tell where I am in the grieving process. It's very disconcerting. 

[schlumpy]

You've made the best choice for her and for you. All that's left now is hope and prayer.

[Marc878]

You can’t fix her. Only she can do that.

[mark clemson]

It's good that you have a path forward that makes sense to you. FWIW, I agree with the suggestion to limit her access to money. Hopefully that won't backfire. Consider keeping court-admissible evidence of the meth addiction as it may make a difference during the divorce. Think both of those things (the money and the meth addiction evidence) would be things to discuss with your lawyer.

Hopefully you'll get some good luck and something will turn for the better soon. You've certainly had enough bad...

[mark clemson]

Sorry I meant meth use, not addiction. Apologies.

[Difficultstuff]

I've followed this thread since you began it and have admired your ability to write with such fortitude and searing emotional honesty.

But I've read your last post a few times and am very wary. You don't say if you've broached this treatment in Europe with her directly. The power dynamic that is occurring, with you feeling you have to 'save' her, worries me. Is it then your fault if you don't save her? What happens if you do? How and when will you know you have? In six months, a year, longer?

You say 'she has nobody'. Is that really true? In what sense? You're putting yourself (back?) in the role of primary caretaker here. Being this involved could keep you from attaining distance and finding your way to whatever your own future holds.

She's not a military ally or a strategic partner. I guess it will come down to you doing what you feel you have to do as your 'obligation', but please continue to protect yourself above everything else.

[S2B]

Place the plan in front of her - she will either do it or she won’t. I’m glad you provided her an option.

she will need to address her traumas - they are always there and need to be resolved.

its not your problem. Proceed with the divorce. Limit her access to any combined money. If she’s desperate enough she may have success. Do NOT rescue her in any way. This is only up to her.

you... you keep moving forward.

[Buffer]

PD,

11 hours ago, PinDrop said:

I believe that I have a duty to do my best to rescue my wife. That doesn't mean that what she did doesn't count...

I get it. "Look at the bigger picture". 

My wife betrayed me, but she isn't so bad that I should listen to her communications fade to silence. She will surely die without help. She has nobody. I have an obligation to rescue her. Who else would if not me and those who love me? I don't have to keep her. I just have to put forth the effort to save her as long as she's willing to save herself.

So that. I think there's a level of sacrifice that I need to make here, but that doesn't mean that I'm thinking "happily ever after" when she's miraculously "cured". I really want to believe "happily ever after" at times. We play so many mind games with ourselves. That's not possible. I'll never trust her enough to really love her again. 

This is all so totally screwed up.

Well thought out. You are supporting her, to get the best help you can, still making her accountable for her actions, and she knows the outcome. So there is no false hope, that would only hurt the recovery process.

I do have a couple of questions that you both may have discussed in private. Did she say if her toxic friend and the lobster give her the idea for the Meth, first as ‘Hey try it’ or ‘Best sex ever when tweaked?’ Also was she tweaking when she had sex with the lobster?  A bit of a coincidence she buys her first bag of meth, then in the same month, cheats. A lot of influencing factors here. Be good,  look after yourself, with WW one day at a time, but support her. You can’t help her if you aren’t looking after yourself. 
Buffer

[Honest_Interest]

Did her friend and the Chad use Meth ? was she introduced to it by them?  what would drive her to seek out and try it?

[salparadise]

14 hours ago, Difficultstuff said:

The power dynamic that is occurring, with you feeling you have to 'save' her, worries me. Is it then your fault if you don't save her? What happens if you do? How and when will you know you have? In six months, a year, longer?

I agree. Thinking in these terms leaves you responsible for outcomes. I understand that you feel an implied obligation to some degree, but I'd be careful with this "savior" mentality you've got going here. Your job is letting go and saving yourself. She needs to be in charge of her own outcomes. Throw her a life preserver, but don't jump in with her.

[DrGroovy88]

First off...I just want to say I am sorry. 
 

I wish I could say that I can’t relate to what you’ve just experienced, but I’m ten years OUT from where you are now. Did the whole rescue mission, supported multiple long-term treatment programs - and have had the exact same mentality that I can’t just leave him in this state. If my vows meant anything, then this is almost the worst sin - right? We are a military family also, and multiple deployments created increasing trauma - which of course then resulted in the kids and I having secondary trauma as he struggled to find his footing back home. (Infidelity, drug/alcohol abuse, physical abuse, violence, etc 😢). I loved him and couldn’t leave him in that state. This resulted in a nightmare over the last ten years that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. 
 

I am also an MD. I know the urge to save her is going to be strong, and I just want to warn you ahead of time how difficult it is going to be to heal if YOU remain her primary caretaker. You know the science and you know the probability of her being the same wife you knew before this happened are zero. That woman, that best friend, lover, cherished wife - she’s just gone. I’m so sorry. I think it’s very honorable that you want to get her into treatment. I think if it’s real, she will need to be the one who is the motivating factor with any program, or it becomes our continued hell when we inadvertently become the enablers...and the lies just go deeper underground.

In my case, I have found out that the man I adored has never even been real - the lies I’ve discovered, the secret life so debase - it predates any combat/PTSD. I wasted 20 years of my life trying to rescue. Your situation might be different - but your logical, scientific brain needs to be the one making these decisions for your safety right now, ok?

You will get through this. I promise in time you will. I’m so sorry 😢

Edited April 6, 2020 by DrGroovy88
Paragraphed

[DrGroovy88]

*10 years not 20. The marriage was 20 tho 😢

[S2B]

Step away and give consequences. 
she will either choose to do the work to get and stay clean or she won’t.

but if you stay during this recovery time you will surely get blamed for not doing things right for her.

if nothing else - file for divorce (even if you don’t finalize it) and have her move somewhere else.

she needs time and space to show you that she either intends to earn her way back or not. Her actions will show you if she is it she isn’t.

but you don’t need to hold her hand in order for her to get well. 

[pepperbird]

one of the hardest parts of watching someone you love cope with addiction/mental health is not being able to help them. if you;re not careful, you'll lose yourself too.

[S2B]

Help yourself... 

she will either do it or not.

you will need to wait at least a year to see if she is doing well with recovery or not.

step back and let HER do the work SHE needs to do.

[Robert2016]

Part of her rehabilitation is to become self reliant.  Living with you as your dependent (wife) is not in her best interest or yours.

Under the best of life circumstances, she made conscious decisions (repeatedly) with respect to drugs and adulterous behavior.  Every decision she made has consequences.

You have an obligation (not just to yourself but to those without good health/opportunity) to live the best version of your own life (and that's not with her).  At most, you owe her civility (not love and self sacrifice). 

Keep your distance physically & emotionally .... divorce asap .... consider hiring a home health care person to visit her house every day to check on her.     

Finally, seek IC to help you heal and also discuss how you can maybe ID and avoid women with corrupted core values; or if you're attracted to self-destructive/ 'needy' women, why?

 

 

[PinDrop]

On 4/2/2020 at 2:00 PM, Difficultstuff said:

I've followed this thread since you began it and have admired your ability to write with such fortitude and searing emotional honesty.

But I've read your last post a few times and am very wary. You don't say if you've broached this treatment in Europe with her directly. The power dynamic that is occurring, with you feeling you have to 'save' her, worries me. Is it then your fault if you don't save her? What happens if you do? How and when will you know you have? In six months, a year, longer?

You say 'she has nobody'. Is that really true? In what sense? You're putting yourself (back?) in the role of primary caretaker here. Being this involved could keep you from attaining distance and finding your way to whatever your own future holds.

She's not a military ally or a strategic partner. I guess it will come down to you doing what you feel you have to do as your 'obligation', but please continue to protect yourself above everything else.

Thank you so much. I have discussed it with her. Such a can of worms! I left out a bit of my thought processes before because I was already so wordy. Yeah, so the "power dynamic". It came down to a question of free will, her mental state (can she even make real decisions right now?), and my responsibilities as a husband. She agreed with treatment, but as I said, can she even make real decisions right now? Her "meth" brain is agreeing with treatment, but then, that's what I'm dealing with. 

So:

Meth brain agrees to treatment. Sober brain (as I knew it to be) would absolutely do a bit more research on the treatment and come to her own conclusion. Meth brain jumped right in with "yes". Sober brain would have asked many more questions. So the only sane person in the room took responsibility, and that was me. No, it isn't my fault if the treatment isn't a success. I don't expect it to be a success, between all of us, but I'm not a psychologist, so I'm only echoing the cynicism of those who know more than I. The fact is that she's addicted to something that most people never really break away from. This treatment, well, the worst thing one could take from it was a "bad trip", although they're talking about set and setting, or something like that, limiting the chances of something going wrong enough to make her worse than what she is now. 

There's 3 weeks of preparation once she arrives. Traditional psychological stuff. They'll get a feel for where she is in the noggin and let her know what to expect during the procedure. There's many more things to be done in those weeks, but that's the jist of it. After the procedure, they'll know within a week or so, but the physician that I spoke to said they pretty much know right away, because the patient almost always knows right away. They don't have that craving. They'll then observe, council, and deal with any physical addiction for 2-4 weeks. I don't know much more. I guess that I trust the people who trust this clinic. 

Yes, she has nobody. Her mother was killed by a drunk driver when she was 5, and her father, a somewhat rough Russian immigrant (who I admired), died from cancer a few years back. She never knew her mother's family and she doesn't know any relatives from Russia. 

I am certainly going to suffer setbacks because of all of this. Loving, apparently blind, husband to betrayed husband, to betrayed husband playing the role of "caretaker". It's an emotional mess. Figuring out the boundaries is a mess. I'm doing my best to educate myself through everyone's experiences here. I'm trying to protect myself. 

She's in a rehab facility right now. We fly out on Sunday. She'll go through infectious disease testing off-campus, and if she's cleared, they'll then go to admittance on-campus. That's how it stands now, with all of this pandemic stuff. The flight is booked. Who knows what it will look like later in the week? Everything is in flux. I'm taking a week off, but after that... my fields of expertise are kinda valuable right now, and there's nothing that I can do by staying there any longer with her. Besides, it's distance.

My emotions are all over the place. I'm supposed to be by her side, but hello? What a messed up thought after all of this. I keep having to remind myself that this pitiful human being was whole and clean just a couple of months back, and decided to go down a dark path. As far as I know, she made her choice with a sound mind, and the unsound mind that made all of the bad decisions is on her as well. It's hard to hold that course though. It goes from "run away, now" to "She'll be herself again and we'll forget all of this". Nuts. Emotions lying to my face. 

We'll try this thing. She may be cured, or put in a position to succeed. She may have a "bad trip". I don't know. It can't be any worse than the trip that we're on. 

On 4/2/2020 at 2:10 PM, S2B said:

Place the plan in front of her - she will either do it or she won’t. I’m glad you provided her an option.

she will need to address her traumas - they are always there and need to be resolved.

its not your problem. Proceed with the divorce. Limit her access to any combined money. If she’s desperate enough she may have success. Do NOT rescue her in any way. This is only up to her.

you... you keep moving forward.

She's on-board with the plan. Divorce is going forward. Finances are separated. I've provided her with a reloadable VISA. I haven't given it to her yet, because she has no need for it where she is. I can't see months out yet. Too complicated. Looking at weeks out. I guess the thing now is being vigilant when it comes to allowing emotions too deeply into the decision-making processes. There's this thing. It's called "trust". I don't have that. I can't picture a happily ever after without trust. I don't trust her. I can't picture ever trusting her... not under the circumstances. I'm not worried about backsliding. Certainly not now, but I'm here, and I'll be accountable, because I don't ever want to feel this way again. 

On 4/2/2020 at 9:08 PM, Buffer said:

I do have a couple of questions that you both may have discussed in private. Did she say if her toxic friend and the lobster give her the idea for the Meth, first as ‘Hey try it’ or ‘Best sex ever when tweaked?’ Also was she tweaking when she had sex with the lobster?  A bit of a coincidence she buys her first bag of meth, then in the same month, cheats. A lot of influencing factors here. Be good,  look after yourself, with WW one day at a time, but support her. You can’t help her if you aren’t looking after yourself. 
Buffer

Oh hell. Another thing that I haven't talked about because my posts are epic length already. Yes, she was on meth when they had sex. He didn't talk her into it. She talked him into it. I don't know if he was sober. Didn't really think to ask. Maybe she gave him some, as the meth came from outside that circle. My wife basically indicated that the dude just got wrapped up in it. I've not involved myself in asking the dude any questions. I mean really... how pitiful would that be? I'm left with all of this, coming from a meth-head, so... What I've been able to verify has shown her as being truthful after the first day or so of absolute chaos. Isn't the "truth" that I'm getting bad enough anyway?

I am curious, curious in a very masochistic way it seems, but I'm trying to box up that curiosity. Often, when my mind wandered to trying to investigate the whole raunchy story behind the episode, I realized that if I wanted to go on with my wife, I'd have to deal with the pain of the questions, and then the answers, and then questioning the answers because of my lack of trust in her. I don't have to deal with that pain if I'm moving on, so I won't. I'm boxing it up. 

On 4/3/2020 at 5:07 AM, salparadise said:

I agree. Thinking in these terms leaves you responsible for outcomes. I understand that you feel an implied obligation to some degree, but I'd be careful with this "savior" mentality you've got going here. Your job is letting go and saving yourself. She needs to be in charge of her own outcomes. Throw her a life preserver, but don't jump in with her.

Noted. I agree.  I'll work on the rescue mentality that I've stepped into. It's not the best solution at this moment, but it is the best solution that I can reasonably expect to maintain right now. This clinic is her life preserver. 

I have to go. Work calls. I've read everything, and I'll respond soon.

 

[Robert2016]

One of the most important things you'll ever do for your kids is 'who' you pick to be their mother.

 

[mark clemson]

20 minutes ago, PinDrop said:

Her mother was killed by a drunk driver when she was 5, and her father, a somewhat rough Russian immigrant (who I admired), died from cancer a few years back. She never knew her mother's family and she doesn't know any relatives from Russia.

FWIW, my guess is that this is where the problems she is creating in your lives ultimately stem from. Some stuff from back there. She has (had) a very nice situation but has self-sabotaged it. She can't actually allow herself to "win" in life, can't feel comfortable being "comfortable" - something along those lines.

 

20 minutes ago, PinDrop said:

Divorce is going forward.

While I make no recommendation, I suspect that is a wise choice on your part. I think there is stuff there that needs a specialist to address. Even if that was your skill set, you'd have to recuse yourself as a family member. And it may take years. If it was me, in a similar situation, I'm pretty sure I'd let go.

[Buffer]

Hey, brother 

thanks for the update, she talked him into doing her on Meth? Far out, what a nightmare you have found yourself in.

I in no way would expect you to ask anyone other than your WW, regarding any of this. If it was me I would not be able to have a civil conversation with Lobster Larry or his toxic gf. Total NC for life for them. I feel they played a lot more in the demise of your marriage.

Again strength to you and one day at a time, also you are in the equation so care fir yourself. You are doing lots more than most BS would.

Buffer

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Buffer
Wording