Intergenerational Courtships

[basil67]

2 hours ago, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

Im gonna have to stop you there... 6 pages of this conversation and not one of you can make a coherent rebuttal on why old men dating young women is a problem...

Lets get some facts straight first: All of you arguing against this are older women. As much as we value all of your opinions, you have to understand you all have an inherent bias in this conversation... You want older men to date older women because you are all older women. 

Personally, I would prefer to hear a rebuttal from a party directly impacted by this: Young women or Old men... Not saying you shouldnt have a voice in this conversation, just saying that it sounds like y'all are a lil' too invested in this whole thing, its as if guys your own age are checking out younger women or something.

When I said "this is not feminine nonsense" I was referring to the OP not understanding social media.  Not sure why you partly quoted me on that and then said nothing about social media.

I don't care who older men date because I'm married, so don't make false assumptions as to why I object.  And don't go calling your assumptions "facts".    If there is a degree of over investment, I would say it's more likely due to the fact that we have daughters.  And/or we experienced being creeped on by old men when we were young.  Does our personal experience speak for nothing?   

On a more personal level, I object because of a desire to protect young women from the patronising attitudes which seem so prevalent in old men who want a young woman.   The OP  talks about how he wants to guide her using the wisdom he's gained throughout his life.  Blech.  This is the role of a father - not a husband.   And there's a fine line between guiding her with his "wisdom" and controlling her.    The OP also talks about it being important that the young bride stay at home and keep house.   This is a very risky proposition for a young woman - what happens if the marriage breaks down and she's got little in the way of work experience? The OP talks about the financial security an older can give, but just last week, I saw someone here group wives with sex workers.  I can only assume it was said because her husband pays for her.

Or there's the flipside where the older man isn't wise.  Instead, he's a Peter Pan.  She's attracted to his youth and then she outgrows him.   I've seen that more than once.   

Having a family is also an issue.  50yo guys semen is old.  Higher risk for birth defects.   And will he really want to start a family at age 50?  And is it even fair for a young child to have an old dad?   

Lastly, the OP says that this is nobody's business but the that of the two involved.  But surely if he wants a traditional marriage, he would ask for her parents blessing.  I can assure you, that blessing would not be forthcoming.   So it becomes the business of the older women when we are asked.  

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by basil67

[basil67]

To add a little more, I find the old/young thing less problematic if the relationship happens unexpectedly.   Or if both partners are already old. For example, when my father in law was 70, he had a relationship with a 50 year old woman.   At this age, the are on par in terms of life experience, so I see nothing wrong with it.   Even 35 and 52 is not so weird.  Then again, both of these examples pass the ‘half your age plus seven’ test.

My issue is when an older man is deliberately seeking a younger, less experienced woman.  A woman who has less knowledge and wisdom than him and as such, is more vulnerable.   There is a predatory feel to it.

And for the record, my views would be the same if genders were reversed.  

[awalns]

Of course another large group to consider (outside of those who hang out with the “bums” and have little to no sense of commitment) are those who are in college.  These girls have basically a one-track mind and that is study, study, study, so they can work, work, work (not thinking about marriage or family to any serious degree).  This is also a dead end by and large (I advised my son to avoid career women like the plague when it comes to relationships).  So I know that the pool of viable, special, traditional girls is very limited, but I also know that these are ones I (and countless other guys who see their value) that are worth the wait, trouble, and effort!

[basil67]

That's interesting....you give your son advice on avoiding career women.  But people shouldn't give advice to young women about avoiding old men where there's a mismatch of life experience.  Why can you give advice but others shouldn't?    Apparently you also don't value educating women.   

And you wonder why others would advise their daughters against such a match.

Edited January 22, 2020 by basil67

[sothereiwas]

My wife is more than 20 years my junior. We've known each other over a decade and have been together almost a decade. Seems to be OK. She's also under the impression I'm 'a good man' though so it's possible her judgement is a little off ....

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

4 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

My wife is more than 20 years my junior. We've known each other over a decade and have been together almost a decade. Seems to be OK. She's also under the impression I'm 'a good man' though so it's possible her judgement is a little off ....

Have you made sure she hasn't gotten an education or a career?

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

My wife is more than 20 years my junior. We've known each other over a decade and have been together almost a decade. Seems to be OK. She's also under the impression I'm 'a good man' though so it's possible her judgement is a little off ....

Well, if like the OP, you were actively seeking very young woman who you can mentor and teach, who is uneducated and should stay at home and only wear conservative clothes....then yes, perhaps her judgement is off.    

However, you've never written of these things, so I suspect that you view her as an equal.

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

Have you made sure she hasn't gotten an education or a career?

Of course, I stole her from grammar school, and kept her in the cellar until she reached the age of majority. Doesn't everyone?

Somehow she managed to have her own house and land before we met, her own life, career, and money, but sure, we can discount that. 

Also, I have to liquidate some assets from a Nigerian prince, can anyone help me?

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I suspect that you view her as an equal.

Nah, she's not my equal.

She's way too good for me.

[basil67]

Context is everything.  Good luck to you.

[VioletVelvet]

I'm late to the party but I did see a bunch of posts about how the older man (50s) is in a better position than a younger man to support a family with his young wife, but the math doesn't really add up. Allowing for a few years to get established and then produce children means he's going to be a senior citizen when his kids are barely past training wheels.  

Unless he saved enough for retirement AND enough to support children through high school/college then this age looks like a huge minus in the red column to me. The big expenses with kids don't come when they're little, they come once they hit puberty, and continue for quite awhile.

Earning potential is greatest in the early 50s, so that would be the time to have teenagers, not babies. Ergo the optimal financial time for a man to get married to and support a stay-at-home wife is in his early 30s and start having kids in his mid-30s, which, probably not coincidentally, is usually the time it happens. 

Also to some points above: I dated older men when I was young, but that meant their 30s to my 20s. The vast, vast majority of women in their 20s find men in their 40s and 50s creepy if they try to date them, and trust me it happens to every woman in her 20s. And trust me, they talk about how creepy it is. 

The exception is young women who choose to date older for a financial arrangement: youth/beauty for money, basically. I don't judge either side and in fact it irks me when people complain about a "gold digger" but not about the "beauty digger" -- it's an arrangement!

But that type of arrangement comes at a pretty hefty cost for the young woman unless she takes the opportunity to bolt early, especially when he gets truly old as she's still relatively young. As my mother used to say, women who marry for money work hard for their living. 

[some_username1]

On 1/20/2020 at 8:32 AM, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

Im gonna have to stop you there... 6 pages of this conversation and not one of you can make a coherent rebuttal on why old men dating young women is a problem...

Lets get some facts straight first: All of you arguing against this are older women. As much as we value all of your opinions, you have to understand you all have an inherent bias in this conversation... You want older men to date older women because you are all older women. 

Personally, I would prefer to hear a rebuttal from a party directly impacted by this: Young women or Old men... Not saying you shouldnt have a voice in this conversation, just saying that it sounds like y'all are a lil' too invested in this whole thing, its as if guys your own age are checking out younger women or something.

I think you would have had to be living under a rock to have not yet encountered the “anti-older men dating younger women“ sisterhood on LS. Exactly as you say, too invested and the arguments too predictable. It’s almost pointless trying to debate with such an audience because it becomes cyclical and goes round in circles ad nauseum and then it moves from thread to thread. It will all be re-hashed again a month from now. And again, as you say you can see where it stems from: older women on a sub-conscious level like to see older men put back in their place so they can continue to be orbiters for the older OLD-using female. Can’t be having any slaves escaping from the plantation now can’t we! 
 

Me personally I find it so annoying when all this hand wringing comes up. If two people are happy and breaking no laws, no matter the gender or age discrepancy we should see it as “not my circus, not my clowns” and trust that they know their own mind without trying to attach labels (mostly to the male!) of “predator” etc. Of course some of those relationships will turn out to be dysfunctional but hey, there are plenty of relationships between people of the same age that are like something out of a horror movie. The issue isn’t the age so much that everyone is different and some relationships work and some don’t. That’s life.

tl;dr: People are people.

Edited January 23, 2020 by some_username1

[sothereiwas]

On 1/20/2020 at 12:32 AM, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

Personally, I would prefer to hear a rebuttal from a party directly impacted by this: Young women or Old men.

I know of a situation where there was abuse in such a relationship, but I don't think that's much of a rebuttal; happens in all sorts of relationships unfortunately. 

[sothereiwas]

3 hours ago, VioletVelvet said:

I did see a bunch of posts about how the older man (50s) is in a better position than a younger man to support a family with his young wife, but the math doesn't really add up.

Have a look at the demographics of wealth and then let me know if you've reconsidered your position.

It almost sounded like "people who can't afford kids shouldn't have them", which I actually agree with, but not sure it applies in the specific case. 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by sothereiwas

[VioletVelvet]

2 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Have a look at the demographics of wealth and then let me know if you've reconsidered your position. 

Wealth vs income. (Let's assume we're not talking about outliers on either side of the bell curve) A 65-year-old's wealth has to sustain him, and in this case his family, for a considerable amount of time with no income. While supporting kids from the ages of somewhere around 10 - 22 through college? Two kids? IF he manages to live until his kids both reach the age of 22 (somewhere around 77/78 YO)

[CAPITAL CROOK]

26 minutes ago, some_username1 said:

I think you would have had to be living under a rock to have not yet encountered the “anti-older men dating younger women“ sisterhood on LS. Exactly as you say, too invested and the arguments too predictable. It’s almost pointless trying to debate with such an audience because it becomes cyclical and goes round in circles ad nauseum

tl;dr: People are people.

Yeah, well the mass reporting doesnt help either, but hey, we've all got our ways I suppose ;D

 

3 hours ago, VioletVelvet said:

I'm late to the party but I did see a bunch of posts about how the older man (50s) is in a better position than a younger man to support a family with his young wife, but the math doesn't really add up. Allowing for a few years to get established and then produce children means he's going to be a senior citizen when his kids are barely past training wheels.  

Unless he saved enough for retirement AND enough to support children through high school/college then this age looks like a huge minus in the red column to me. The big expenses with kids don't come when they're little, they come once they hit puberty, and continue for quite awhile.

Earning potential is greatest in the early 50s, so that would be the time to have teenagers, not babies. Ergo the optimal financial time for a man to get married to and support a stay-at-home wife is in his early 30s and start having kids in his mid-30s, which, probably not coincidentally, is usually the time it happens. 

Also to some points above: I dated older men when I was young, but that meant their 30s to my 20s. The vast, vast majority of women in their 20s find men in their 40s and 50s creepy if they try to date them, and trust me it happens to every woman in her 20s. And trust me, they talk about how creepy it is. 

The exception is young women who choose to date older for a financial arrangement: youth/beauty for money, basically. I don't judge either side and in fact it irks me when people complain about a "gold digger" but not about the "beauty digger" -- it's an arrangement!

But that type of arrangement comes at a pretty hefty cost for the young woman unless she takes the opportunity to bolt early, especially when he gets truly old as she's still relatively young. As my mother used to say, women who marry for money work hard for their living. 

Men who are 30 may not even be at their full earning potential or if they did, they have just arrived. Men who are 50+ are much more likely of hit their max earning potential and been at that place for a significant amount of time vs. the 30 year old. To suggest that a 30 year old man is in a better position to raise a child than a 50 year old man is a ridiculous notion... Wisdom wise, financially, socially... Hell, if the 50 year old takes care of himself, he may even be in better health than a 30 year old who does not.

Also, this idea of 'Creepy' changes nothing, men do not care how they are received by others, we care about your situation at hand... Yes, women are under a social contract to date men their own age, but all these social contracts that we all have with each other are slowly breaking down... Dudes are kissing dudes, women are kissing women... Its time to grow up a lil bit.

[VioletVelvet]

The "creepy" comment is not about perception by others. It's about perception by the younger women the older men are trying to date. But for argument's sake we'll assume the 50 YO has a willing participant. 

My comment about financial position was clearly not about the financial ability at 35 v 50; it's about the relative positions at 50-55 v 65-70, when the child is a teen/getting to college age. And that's assuming the young wife hasn't left for greener pastures, because if that's the case and she's a stay-at-home parent then you'll have to add in that support too. 

[sothereiwas]

23 minutes ago, VioletVelvet said:

Let's assume we're not talking about outliers on either side of the bell curve

In this discussion, I think lying outside the fat part of the bell curve is a bit of a given, don't you?

[VioletVelvet]

7 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

In this discussion, I think lying outside the fat part of the bell curve is a bit of a given, don't you?

If you say so. Then really what you (or whoever first made the argument) are saying isn't that men over 50 are in a financially better position, which is what the argument appeared to be from my perspective. It's that' wealthy men over 50 are in a financially better position. Which is a given. 

If you're talking clear out of the bell curve then that is very wealthy indeed.

In any case, best of luck. 

 

[sothereiwas]

3 minutes ago, VioletVelvet said:

If you're talking clear out of the bell curve then that is very wealthy indeed.

I think that by definition, no one is "clear out of" the bell curve. The distribution is made from the data, after all. Moving on,  while I never made that argument, I would expect that it's easier to see the trajectory of a person who's been going through life a little longer than it is to predict the outcome for someone who is just starting out. So taking a known good performer is maybe a better bet than essentially rolling the dice. 

As to whether a person should not have a kid due to financial concerns when one is older, I would say in general no one should have kids they expect other people to support, period. 

 

[awalns]

Another thing that really gets under my skin is how many in society can tolerate or at least respect a girl’s decision to do porn when she turns 18.  But if she were to date someone like me, many would view it as deranged, sick, or abhorrent.  They have little issue with her degrading herself to millions, a digital record that will last forever, yet they would see someone like me as a pervert or sugar daddy or desperate and would wonder to no end why she would “waste” any of her time on me; mind you this would be a platonic courtship, not some kind of sleazy affair.  For those of you who are interested Netflix has a documentary called “Hot Girls Wanted”.  Check it out and see for yourself.  The hypocrisy of the above is staggering and is a big reason why I started this thread!!!!

[chillii]

Same old same old. l get plenty of younger women interested in me and they ain't after my wallet l can promise ya that. Although l do pass for a helluva lot younger than l am l dunno if that has anything to do with it.  Funny how the cougar trends never come into all this stuff though and the completely opposite bs from the ladies when it's all vise verse , the tone , the excuses and explanations , laughable. And that women have spent centuries b@tching about men yet doing as usual the exact same thing. And the money thing , haaaaa, givme strength . Any older guy getting in the family way will  have things sorted l daresay and still have years of very good earning left to allow. lt wouldn't even be close to a biggie.

Edited February 22, 2020 by chillii

[Kitty Tantrum]

If I had my way, legal consent would be considered in context.

Consent to marry (uncontested by either family): lowered to puberty (minimum 12 years).

Consent to marry without approval, consent to fornicate: 18.

Consent to perform any and all sex work (porn, stripping, phone/chat stuff, classical prostitution, "sugar dating" etc.): raised to 30.

Call me some kinda weirdo, I'd rather see young people getting married, even if it's to older people who function in a somewhat parental role (as if that doesn't end up happening in one direction or another in most same-age relationships too??? Please), than hooking or doing porn or selling their bathwater or whatever.

If I'd had the option to marry a stable, secure adult man with a good reputation in my community when I hit puberty, instead of being shoved into the runaway train of "go to college and get a career or you'll end up a prostitute if you can't find a husband (p.s. men are bad and marriage is prostitution anyway)" - I'd have taken that in a heartbeat.

What a world we live in, where women who are barely adults can "exercise their freedom" to sell their sexuality for money, or just give it away for free, and be lauded as progressive and liberated... But those same young women are sternly warned against the dangers of falling in with predatory men who want to care for them and have children with them.

🤔

[Baman]

@awalns ''I don't plan on molding her; she will already be like that when we meet; we will want the same thing.  Those are those ones worth waiting for''!

It is commonly called a May/ December relationship. Spring and winter sort of thing.

I am in one. I married a 27 year old at 44 and she is now 40 and I am 57.

There was never any societal or peer or family reaction worth noting. Perhaps that I am a young for my age man who is in good shape had something to do with, that i don't know.

I never  pursued her nor her me, we had been work friends several years before and it just evolved over time. I was not looking for a relationship. She hates the patriarchy and would never stand for any of that bulls***. No daddy issues in the mix either. She is far from traditional. She aint no housewife type, far too independent for that.

We just clicked and fell in love. You cant make it happen with a younger woman and you are very misguided if you think you can find what you want because you want it. The only place I know of where you'll find that dynamic you seem to want is in a fundy religion that forces subjugation on women. Please don't go there.

That all said, age gap relationships like you want have a certain set of issues that often mean they last only about 10 years because the younger woman married when still a girl and when she grows up and matures into a woman so to speak, she will want to fly those wings. And you BOTH need to have a good game plan and relationship to enable it.

Be careful what you ask for!

[sothereiwas]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:32 AM, basil67 said:

But surely if he wants a traditional marriage, he would ask for her parents blessing.  I can assure you, that blessing would not be forthcoming.

Actually my wife's parents blessed our marriage.