In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[HadMeOverABarrel]

There have been quite a few instances when he has done something for me that was out of his comfort zone and potentially at a cost as well.

 

What has he done for you lately since, he gave you the "I'm working on my family" talk?

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language; truncate quote ~W

[BaileyB]

I’m sure that felt very nice, but I think anyone would do something similar for someone they care for... I have certainly made personal sacrifices for a friend when we were travelling together. And clearly, he cares for you and gets something back too...

 

When it comes to the sacrifices that really matter, he is all talk and no action.

 

Unfortunately, you don’t see it. You are so wanting of love and affection... anything he offers feels like undying love and commitment to you.

Edited July 2, 2019 by BaileyB

[anika99]

That's a pretty lame example of him doing something for you and just goes to show how low you have set the bar. First of all I think most women would expect their boyfriend to sit with her on the plane even if it meant the poor dear had to give up his seat in first class.

 

Secondly one can still say he did that for himself because he knew it would impress you and make you swoon for him, thereby feeding his ego and securing you as his mistress.

 

Lastly, none of those little things he does for you amounts to a hill of beans if he's not leaving his wife. Talk about tunnel vision. You gush about his smallest acts of kindness while ignoring the fact that he is a liar and a cheater who is using 2 women and doesn't care who gets hurt so long as it isn't him.

[finna]

To answer the question about which of these happened after he said he was going to focus on his family, two of the travel examples did.

 

For those that are disparaging my examples - that’s your prerogative and I do appreciate the perspective and feedback. Keep in mind please that coming back at me with “that’s not a real sacrifice” or “anyone would have done that” or “you’re avoiding ” makes it seem like you want to have it both ways as well and some credibility is lost.

 

When you go from saying “MM is completely selfish and will never do anything that doesn’t completely benefit him” to responding with contempt to my examples it also makes it seem like you are looking for certain answers and when my story doesn’t fit your expected narrative that’s quite uncomfortable for you.

 

How many people do you really know that would give up a cushy business class seat with a bed for a hellish flight in economy if they only ever think about themselves? There was no reward for MM in this example- we were parting ways for over a month after that flight. These are the things that make me love him and make it so difficult to give him up.

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
discussing moderation

[finna]

You’ve trained him to treat you terribly... all the while you think it’s great... which just makes it 10 times more disgusting.

 

Show up on his doorstep at home and demand he tells his wife the truth! That would show what he’s willing to sacrifice for you.

 

Even if you say this just to make a point why would I want to do that? That would be traumatic for everyone and sounds like a good way to get in a lot of trouble. I would rather the three of us sit down together and discuss - with BS free to ask or say anything she wants. Probably not realistic either but seems far more mature.

[finna]

I have been devouring as much research and other information as I can find on all this... Many moons ago I was in the medical profession with a fair amount of psychology study and practice, so these concepts are familiar to me. Besides trying to utilize the info for myself I often wonder how the same chemicals and processes affect MM... does he text me several times a day to get his fix as well even when he says he is focusing elsewhere? Yes I know thinking about those things is not the focus you are so kindly recommending, but I find the overall picture as a collection of biological processes quite fascinating.

 

 

You are an intelligent woman, so please don't take my word for it. Do your own independent research.

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

[BaileyB]

That's a pretty lame example of him doing something for you and just goes to show how low you have set the bar.

 

None of those little things he does for you amounts to a hill of beans if he's not leaving his wife. Talk about tunnel vision. You gush about his smallest acts of kindness while ignoring the fact that he is a liar and a cheater who is using 2 women and doesn't care who gets hurt so long as it isn't him.

 

Exactly. His sacrifice to decline first class and sit with you may have felt good but it is rather meaningless - when he gets off the plane and goes home to his wife.

 

I know that you take pride in the fact that this relationship has grown “organically,” but at the end of the day he is just like every other married man, lying to his wife and sneaking around with another woman. He is no different.

 

You have totally confused kindness and affection for love and commitment. And to be fair, he has lead you on this wild goose chase by allowing you to believe that he was offering love and commitment. And yet, when he goes home to his wife you are left clinging to memories of small kindnesses, and tender moments... as a lifeline, to keep you emotionally afloat. You are trying to convince yourself that it is enough when you know in your mind - it amounts to little more than a hill of beans when the woman he has chosen is his wife.

[darkbloom]

It’s not that MM doesn’t care for you. It’s that he cares about himself more.

 

You are in deep. While you feel good while you’re with him, the highs are extra high and the lows are extra low. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

You believe MM is honest with you about everything but the one truth he has given to you. He has already given you the truth that he isn’t leaving, you just aren’t listening.

[Amethyst68]

I'm curious if he cared so much for your comfort why he didn't just swap seats with you? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, that's what my other half would have done in an instant. Without even thinking about it, especially on a long haul flight. He would be appalled that any man would give up his comfortable seat to a stranger and leave someone he loved in cramped conditions for 12hrs. That's love and caring for someone. You seem focused on the superficial romantic, almost teenage aspects of love.

 

I suspect nothing will change, after this holiday your level of contact will increase back to the level it was before but with less future faking. There will still be some to keep you interested enough to synch you travel calendar for next year but as he needs to be in your city so much that won't really matter. It will continue until there's a DDay or his wife forces him to get a job with less travel. Something, to be honest, that I for one would have been pushing for a long time ago but now the son is in school it would become a necessity.

[pepperbird]

op,

Maybe it's just me, but there is a certain undertone in your posts. It's almost as if you are trying to convince yourself he's a great guy and worth the sacrifices you make in terms of time and an emotional investment.

 

Do you believe he is? Is the relationship ( if it continues) worth your time, effort and bruised conscience?

 

I know I'm not seeing him through your eyes, but I just don't understand the pull he has. You are a smart, capable strong woman with an excellent career and you sound very driven and lots of fun to be with. There are so many men out there who would give their eye teeth to be with a woman like you who could be a great relationship partner and tick all their boxes and then some. They also would be free of the baggage mm is carrying, and you would never find yourself at home wondering what they are doing with their wife while you're alone.

 

It's like you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

[Turning point]

I don't think anyone is going to convince the OP that she's on the losing end of the stick. We all know how this ends - she just has to find herself there before she finally gets it.

 

OP, you don't end up with the man. You get older, and he moves onto a younger model - just like getting a new car. Maybe three years, maybe ten years who knows how much time you will lose - but you will lose. His wife is the classic, the model he keeps and shelters. If she dumps him he may run to you until he finds a replacement. Yes - replacement, because you are the recreational vehicle not his classic.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Turning point

[Jhm42]

To answer the question about which of these happened after he said he was going to focus on his family, two of the travel examples did....

 

I think you’re working with a different definition of sacrifice than most of the other posters here. All of the examples you give cost him something, but each time it was something relatively easy to give and got him something else he valued. The flight was uncomfortable, but it was very temporary, and it reinforced his image as a good guy in his own mind and yours. You said he loves work, so going all out to take a day off also isn’t that big a deal. And so on. When you asked him to make a real sacrifice, he backed off.

 

You’re also seeing this in black and white. If he does nice things, they must mean that he’s a good man who’s really prioritizing you. But the same behavior means different things coming from different people. From the way you’ve described him, these nice things he’s doing fit into his workaholic/people pleaser personality. It isn’t they’re not nice (they are!) or that they don’t mean anything (they do!); it’s just that they don’t mean as much as you seem to think. This goes back to the first responses I gave you about how he won’t make a real sacrifice for his wife. He’ll make small ones (such as not spending the night of their anniversary with you) that make him feel better about himself, but he won’t give up things that are important to him to benefit someone he claims to love.

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[heartwhole2]

Humans are complicated and the vast majority of us have good qualities. I've never subscribed to the idea that your MM has been orchestrating all of this with a Machiavellian intent or that he doesn't genuinely care for you.

 

But whether he's good or bad or selfless or selfish doesn't change the fact that the situation is bad and wrong, and as such can only end badly in one way or another.

 

Have you scheduled IC? Have you read up on affairs? I'd suggest Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass.

[Beentheretoooften]

@heartwhole2....

 

This is right on. Everyone makes every MM out as evil. I believe that it’s possible he genuinely loves her. It’s only been 6 months, but it is possible. The feelings are so good. OP is in deep. So many things going on. However, the advice being given here is also correct. You have to end it, you’ll always have doubts as to what could have been, what if etc. but the longer it goes on the harder the fall you will take. You can’t afford to put yourself in that position. Nobody can. Have you actually asked him point blank if he is divorcing? Yes or no? I’m curious if he would deflect. I do hope everyone involved ends up ok.

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

I talked about some of this stuff yesterday with a good guy friend who knows the situation. I do believe MM is a great guy - with a lot of faults like anyone. I would (still) love nothing better than if we could do life together in a legit relationship. I know itÂ’s not particularly likely at this point and IÂ’m not even sure what our status is going to be after his holiday... I will find out in ten days at the latest.

 

At some point if MM is not worth my time or efforts it is going to be tough and painful to completely move on. I have been trying to take the mindset that it is already over - at least for the foreseeable future - but that has been very difficult to get to, even with LC and him being on holiday and focusing on the family. I can only take it day by day and make the best decisions I can with the information that I have.

 

 

Do you believe he is? Is the relationship ( if it continues) worth your time, effort and bruised conscience?

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

I wanted him to spend the time next to me- we were to part the next day for over a month.

 

I don’t know if our level of contact will resume or not- in some ways I desperately hope that it does, in other ways of course that is a reset to moving on so is not ideal. I also don’t know if he will be interested in synching travel- if he is serious about his family he will likely not... of course that may change over time (either direction) as well.

 

I'm curious if he cared so much for your comfort why he didn't just swap seats with you?

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[What_Did_I_Do]

I think what the other posters are referring to when asking if he's done something out of his comfort zone for you is:

 

- being able to call him during his Sunday dinner with the W and family and ask that he come over because there's a burst pipe under your kitchen sink (I know logistics are an issue here but you'll get the idea...). Heck, or even just being able to call him at 3:00am when he's sleeping next to his W just to say you love him (or whatever)

 

- he give up a family vacation/outing/Christmas for you because you'd like to attend your grandmother's 90th birthday and it would be wonderful to show off your 'boyfriend' to family

 

- require that he leave his W if he ever wants to be with you again

 

Those previous acts of kindness were nothing more than an effort to make HIM come across as a good guy. That's all.

[Beentheretoooften]

@What_Did_I_Do....

 

The only realistic one here if the last one. He obviously can’t do the others at the moment. Lol. But, if he were to address the last one, then the others would be more reasonable

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

@Beentheretoooften....

 

I’m working up to that. It’s a balancing act for me to take all factors into consideration as well as to stay true to my needs and responsibilities. I suspect people have similar considerations when trying to make a serious decision about any relationship. No decision or action is also a decision and I can’t decide (lol) if it is better for me to allow events to unfold or take a stand right now in a way that I may regret. I’ve made so many mistakes since navigating all of this is new to me... my confidence in doing what is 100% right for me is a bit lacking as I’m sure folks have observed.

Edited July 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[BaileyB]

I tend to agree that there is an undertone to your writing. I see three basic themes that are guiding your decision making...

 

1. You have decided that this man is a good man and this relationship is one that you want.

2. You are desperately lonely and because you are lonely and lack the self esteem to believe you are worthy of more than a part-time relationship with a married man, you are willing to accept things that others would not.

3. You seem completely reluctant to consider the fact that what you are doing is hurtful and wrong. You briefly acknowledge these discussions, but basically shut them down and avoid accepting responsibility for your part in this affair - choosing to focus on the man and how he makes you feel. You do seem like an intelligent and kind person. I believe you have to compartmentalize this relationship because if you actually sat for a moment and considered what you are doing from an ethical or outside perspective, I don’t know that you could accept it and live with this decision.

Edited July 2, 2019 by BaileyB

[elaine567]

I would rather the three of us sit down together and discuss - with BS free to ask or say anything she wants. Probably not realistic either but seems far more mature.

 

Yes, because that would give you importance and a seat at "their" table.

I guess she would not want you there and I guess neither would he.

[finna]

1. No doubt - I do believe he is a very good man... he has made some bad decisions certainly.

 

2. I am actually quite a happy person. There are times I do experience loneliness of course but I would say most of the time I have a fulfilling life experience.

 

My issue is that I know I can be happy without MM, but at this point I’d rather be happy with him because of the synergy... it is the difference between happy contentment and incredible joy.

 

3. I take responsibility for my part of the relationship. I feel that I have done what I can to eliminate any duplicity or deception for the relationships I can control- exH, friends, family, etc.

 

The choice for MM to take similar action is just that - his choice. I expect him to own it as well as deal with the consequences for his relationships. I know this will not necessarily be a popular approach here, but beyond me encouraging him to be truthful and go legit - it is ultimately his decision and I then have to make my decisions accordingly.

[finna]

He likely would not want to be in that type of discussion - she may or may not. There is something to be said for the opportunity for truth and transparency- for all of us. Certainly I would have no place in deciding what they will do with their relationship post such an encounter.

[BaileyB]

I would rather the three of us sit down together and discuss - with BS free to ask or say anything she wants. Probably not realistic either but seems far more mature.

 

Say whaaaaat?

 

Well, this just shows how delusional you have become. First things first, this conversation has not occurred because your lover has not invited you to have a seat at the table. He would rather keep you hidden away. He has not given you any indication that a relationship with him is a viable option at this point, which means this discussion is moot.

 

Second, you have no right to sit at a table and have a mature discussion with his wife. Consider the roles are reversed, would you welcome the woman who is sleeping with your husband and wants to break your family up to your table to engage in a “mature discussion” about the potential breakup of your marriage. If you say yes - you are living in Lala land... no woman would ever want to do this. And, a man who would put his wife in this position is not a man worth having. Men tend to want to protect the people they love - their wives, their children, their families...

 

When you say “we would invite the BS to ask questions or say whatever she wants” you are making a huge assumption that somehow, he has chosen you and you are graciously allowing her to “ask questions and share how she feels.” That’s an incorrect assumption to make - he has made his decision and he has chosen his wife. If you sit down across the table from her now she is going to tell you want she thinks alright - she’s going to tell you to leave her husband alone and get the hell away from her family.

 

The mature thing to do would be for you to respect the boundary of their marriage...

[Beentheretoooften]

The relationship is setting her back. But, she has a child, probably won’t have anymore, so this could be looked as a temporary fix in her life. If she were single and 27, then I feel she would be “wasting” more of her life. As long as she realizes this is what it is and won’t go further. There is a very small % that it works out, but i wouldn’t count on it.