In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

June 5, 2019

Well it’s his choice whether to file for separation from his wife - not mine.

June 5, 2019

It's his decision whether or not to file. It's your decision whether or not to stay with him.

You don't control him, you only control you.

It's important to think hard about what you really want, what your expectations are, and to lay them out in writing so you can refer back to them later as times change. Both your MM and the forum will try to sway you, confuse you, make you think that your thoughts and beliefs are wrong. It can be hard to hold onto yourself under that level of psychological pressure, especially since people in affairs are usually emotionally vulnerable to begin with.

People do leave sometimes. It's not as simple as "if he hasn't, then he never will". Sometimes it takes a stupidly long time. (On lawyer's advice I don't talk much about the ongoing divorce battle we've been in, but it's been going on for over a year now, it's a nightmare.)

On the other hand, if he keeps making promises and breaking them, if you're keeping notes and you can see a PATTERN of him making promises and breaking them, then you can use your own intelligence to see what that means. Seeing it for yourself is much more powerful than listening to his excuses or our well-meaning warnings.

June 5, 2019

It’s not coincidence that he is pulling back at the same time that her school is done and the original “deadline” approaches...

You decide what is acceptable to you. And, if it’s acceptable to you to have an emotional affair with another woman’s husband that becomes sexual if/when he decides he wants sex from you... then proceed in the way you have been.

June 5, 2019

It's his decision whether or not to file. It's your decision whether or not to stay with him.

On the other hand, if he keeps making promises and breaking them, if you're keeping notes and you can see a PATTERN of him making promises and breaking them, then you can use your own intelligence to see what that means. Seeing it for yourself is much more powerful than listening to his excuses or our well-meaning warnings.

Yes- we were on track with no missteps until three weeks ago. So he has balked once, and has since retreated from that decision some. So there is not a pattern per se- I’m taking my time to see how it shakes out, which I know is making people here nuts - all well-meaning of course.

June 5, 2019

You have softened a "break-up" into "balking" and "missteps." We just want you to take a step back and view this with the perspective of someone who isn't dead set on it working out.

I suggest you go through the different scenarios that might arise when you have that conversation and figure out how you will respond.

1. He says it's for sure over between you two.

1a. He follows this up with no contact.

1b. He repeats the cycle of the last three weeks.

2. He says he doesn't know what he wants and suggests (or allows you to believe he's suggesting) you wait until [fill in the blank with something to do with his wife being ready to move on]. He thinks he'll have more clarity then.

3. He tells you it's for sure you, he's filing for divorce and telling his wife about you.

3a. He actually means he's doing this now.

3b. He's not doing this now. The time isn't right. The time will be right when [insert the blank with something to do with his wife being ready to move on].

Would any of these induce action on your part? If so, what?

June 5, 2019

His original rationale for waiting until she finished her program is reasonable. The fact he backtracks a few short weeks before the good reason ceases to exist should give you major cause for concern. Since that valid reason no longer exists, he should be continuing planning and your relationship, not pulling back. This should tell you something is holding him back and/or he isn't nearly as committed as he made out. He had a valid excuse and he used it to buy time. Any future reasons will be lamer and lamer.

I may just bow out of this thread. It's painful to watch this unfold to someone else just after I finally walked away because of the very same behaviour. Good luck to you asaysno. Or is that asaysya ...

June 5, 2019

Yes- we were on track with no missteps until three weeks ago. So he has balked once, and has since retreated from that decision some. So there is not a pattern per se- I’m taking my time to see how it shakes out, which I know is making people here nuts - all well-meaning of course.

People here are only going "nuts" because they know the script all too well and are trying to spare you massive heartache and disruption to your, and your son's, lives. It's like Julie Andrews reviewing the script for Sound of Music with her understudy. A word to to wise is being excellent in some areas of life does not makeone a master of all. The moments when MM appears to be "back on course" are actually the breadcrumbs to keep you in line. It's all part of the push pull dynamic. Pull when OW is in line and soak up the A benefits, push when she asks questions/expresses her needs/has expectations/makes demands. It is all soooo predictable once one has lived through it and come out the other side. Strangely, it seems to take most to go all the way through the entire painful nightmare to get it. Still, you have gotten some amazing support and insight from very generous people here who are trying to spare you. I believe a lot of good has come from this thread for a lot of people.

June 5, 2019

What HadMe said ... THIS exactly. When he pulls back then rethinks, you are relieved that he just had cold feet but he actually meant it. All goes back to normal. Then you have discussions about the future and he starts getting uncomfortable and ultimately backtracks. The times in between get shorter and shorter and you get more and more frustrated, upset and hurt with each cycle. Wash, rinse, repeat until someone finally puts an end to it. Not to say he doesn't have some genuine feelings for you or wouldn't prefer you. Just not enough to pull the trigger. But here's the thing - I prefer handmade rocky road ice cream but it's expensive. I already have chocolate in the freezer and I like it too so I just eat that. It's the difference between nice to have and must have. The OW is generally the "nice to have" and rarely the "must have"

PS when mine pulled back, it was primarily with words, telling me he felt guilty or didn't know how or if he could follow through. We broke up for like 24 hours twice and for almost a month towards the end but we never saw each other as friends the way you did. He always wanted to spend as much time with me as possible. Yours actually told you he was working on his marriage the FIRST time. It's not likely to get better from here.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he's maintaining distance so he won't feel so guilty when his wife comes to celebrate their anniversary. Once she leaves he will go back to the same old seduction mode as before. He's already priming for it. He will probably say something like the celebration felt hollow and all he could think about was you. He realized it was you he really wanted. This time with her gave him clarity. And you will rejoice ... until the next excuse.

Edited June 5, 2019 by LilKatKat

June 5, 2019

What drives people “nuts” is the stubborn insistence that this will have the ending you want - despite all evidence to the contrary and all the wisdom that has been shared...

It’s hard to watch someone run head first into a wall when they are looking back over their shoulder yelling “don’t worry, I’ll be fine...”

June 5, 2019

I do want to give asaysno some credit for coming here all of three days ago. I don't think there's a person on this board who let go of a dream that they had invested heavily in within three days. She hasn't heard much of what she wanted to hear, but she's returned and been open to outside perspectives.

June 5, 2019

op,

whatever you choose to do or not do, don't hand over all your power to him. Do not allow him to treat you in a way that is disrespectful or unkind just because he's married.

In short, do not accept treatment form him that you wouldn't if he were single. This is especially true of you think your relationship with him could be long term. You are teaching him what you will and will not tolerate, and one you give your power away, it can be very hard to get it back.

June 5, 2019

After next week when I may have a few days with MM, then his family joins... then after that we are both doing separate long-planned vacations with our respective families... until the middle of July. The time apart will be very telling I think. After that he and I have the potential for the better part of 5 - 6 weeks together for work, although could be as little as 2-3 depending on scheduling.

I don’t know what the outcome will be during our time apart... could be mostly NC, or could be some checking in... at this point I think that will be the time when I really get some perspective on the situation... I may not be in the right headspace until then... but really that starts about ten days from now so it’s not too far off.

There are some thing that I need to straight up ask him in person that I will not do over text, and I will feel more comfortable making these decisions once we have talked.

As far as how today went- we worked in separate locations and texted every once in a while... some of it was again fairly intimate but we did not talk about feelings. He called me on his drive home to vent about work stuff that I am familiar with- that was about 30 minutes. After that he has had family/kid obligations so I haven’t heard much.

One telling thing I think is that this is the first phone call he did not say “love you” at the end- nor did I... so while it will likely come as no surprise to you all that he is willing to talk in detail about what he loves about me and things he loves to do with me... but did not say he loves me. It’s not unexpected but still a big paradigm shift for me and something to think about.

June 5, 2019

OP, I caution you not to bet a lot that time apart will be telling. While you are together, or even in limbo, he knows you are still hooked in. I thought the same about time apart and in the end, I was wrong.

May of last year I was away for 20 days. He called me 5 and 6 times a day and messaged incessantly. When I returned, he realized he loved me and wanted a future with me and that’s when the future planning aka faking, began. Mid September he tells BS he wants a separation (6 months into the affair, just like you) , she freaks out, he tells me he’s having guilt about his duty to her and feels he needs to let her down gently so he’s going to make a show of talking and trying to get her to see the marriage is over. This goes on for months and mid November I book another 18 days away over New Year. Again, multiple calls every day and constant messaging. When I return, he maintains he’s leaving after a trip they have planned. During the trip messaging daily and calls every other day. He returns and takes me, not her, out for Valentine’s Day. Shortly after, we break up, which lasts for about a month. He comes back in tears, adamant that he can’t walk away from us and he has a plan. We reconcile. 6 weeks later we broke up for the last time. His plan timeline started to shift and I was having none of it.

Here is the big difference between your situation and mine: we did not have lengthy periods of unfettered access to play house with one another as you do on your trips. Mine actually had to find ways to spend hours (and overnights) at a time, 3-5 times a week with me and he did it, right to the end. Your MM has no excuses to make to his wife. He is away from home and travelling with you. Then he goes home. The two worlds are totally separate for him. Even easier to compartmentalize. Much less risk of discovery than in my case.

If I had it to do over again, aside from not entering an affair to begin with, when this whole drama began to unfold mid to end of September last year, I would have said “please take a month, two, three or whatever you think you need and sort your marriage out. When you have done that, then we can talk about us. If you decide you can’t leave, for whatever reason, I get it. We had our time but it wasn’t meant to be a lifetime.” The reason for that is very simple. We would not be together, nor would we be in limbo with me still on the hook. That would have allowed him to really gain clarity in what he wanted. He may have realized it was me or his marriage. Instead, he knew I wasn’t going anywhere. Slowly but surely he became complacent because BS wasn’t tossing him out when it was obvious he was having an affair and I wasn’t going anywhere either.

By not being clear it’s all or nothing, you are telling him you aren’t going anywhere (nor is his BS) so he has no incentive to do right by either of you. He will drag it out as long as he can because it’s comfortable and the path of least resistance. Do yourself a favour and tell him that until he makes a visible move to end his marriage the only thing you can be is work colleagues. No discussions of ‘us’, no planning, no stringing along. It’s what people tried to tell me but I didn’t listen. Please don’t be me … for your own sake. Had I left him to figure it out last fall, I would be so much better off. We would either be together now, properly, OR I would have been 7 months out from a break up and not one month. In any case, I would be in a better state of mind.

While you indulge their indecision, they will drag it out because they can; it’s the path of least resistance and it gets comfortable – for them.

Edited June 5, 2019 by LilKatKat

June 5, 2019

This description seems to describe your situation, except it's written for the BS who is hanging on to an indecisive cheater. This is from an article called "Why Can't My Cheater Choose?" on Infidelity Help Group, which is a secular, non-profit site with articles challenging common thinking traps in affairs.

-----------------------------------------------

If you’re imagining your cheater wringing their hands in anxiety, pacing and muttering to themselves, “Oh which ONE? Marriage or new relationship? Oh woe, oh confusion, oh my,” that probably needs a rethink. Your cheater’s apparent indecision is not fog, and it’s not necessarily evidence of complexity, confusion, or angst – it has a much simpler explanation.

Projecting your own monogamous thinking onto a cheater makes it easy to incorrectly translate the cheater’s behavior as a struggle between which one to choose, the steady spouse or the love muffin. Your monogamous-thinking is ignoring that cheaters cheat for a reason and that reason explains why the poor confused soul ‘can’t choose’: Choosing would wreck their jollies, because they don’t want either/or, they want both....

It’s clear that if someone wanted their spouse and only their spouse, an affair would not be in the mix. Similarly, if someone wanted to leave their marriage so that they could ethically explore new relationships, they would simply do so, in that order.

Cheaters choose to cheat because they want both the illicit excitement of their love muffin and all the comforts and benefits of their married life, and they want them concurrently. (And don’t underestimate the power and draw of the illicit. Legitimizing the affair relationship by choosing it as the primary relationship might rob the cheater of some of the excitement and sparkles that affair gives them.)

Most affairs do lead the cheater to making a choice (though the long-term secret affair does happen), but before they do they have deliberately taken advantage of both relationships, trying on the affair partner for size, measuring them against their spouse, and weighing their options.....

There is a reason that cheaters aren’t racing to choose their affair partner when you unexpectedly uncover their affair and it’s this: They know that while the affair relationship is exciting, it isn’t robust. They have no medium or long term assurance or security about that relationship, and they are not prepared to take the risk of losing what they have without a reasonable guarantee that they will get something better.

Cheaters want to continue their affair without having to choose their spouse or their affair partner, until the time frame suits them. They are trying the affair partner on for size, enjoying the thrill, and possibly harboring notions that it will turn into something that is concrete and has longevity. But it’s all such a risk – they risk significant losses if they choose the affair partner prematurely and it all goes tits up (which it probably will). Taking their time to evaluate the potential is the cheater’s risk management strategy. Meanwhile, they continue to enjoy the advantages of their spouse and marriage.

-----------------------------------------------

June 5, 2019

After next week when I may have a few days with MM, then his family joins... then after that we are both doing separate long-planned vacations with our respective families... until the middle of July. The time apart will be very telling I think. After that he and I have the potential for the better part of 5 - 6 weeks together for work, although could be as little as 2-3 depending on scheduling.

I don’t know what the outcome will be during our time apart... could be mostly NC, or could be some checking in... at this point I think that will be the time when I really get some perspective on the situation... I may not be in the right headspace until then... but really that starts about ten days from now so it’s not too far off.

This post breaks my heart because you sound so much like me. I guarantee you he is not counting the minutes like you are.

He keeps dangling the hook and you keep gulping down the worms he's offering.

I know you don't want to hear all of the things you're hearing on this site, but as another poster above said, I applaud you for continuing to return anyway. I haven't been here long but from what I've seen, there's a fairly supportive community here..I hope it helps when your heart is broken.

Edited June 6, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

June 5, 2019

Heartwhole - Exactly my point. They are complacent when they don’t have to choose because they have the best or both. The OW can’t compete with the history, family, friends, finances etc. If you get them to leave at the height before the Push pull sets in and the OW starts behaving like the wife, they might leave. Why i said I should have pulled out at the outset. That was the time he might have done it, IF he was ever going to. Before I stopped being fun by actually trying to hold him accountable and trying to have him face how he was being cruel to everyone. And if he didn’t leave I’d be 6 months ahead on the recovery curve.

June 5, 2019

This is true. So never leave yourself waiting for any man to decide your future.

He will use you for as long as you keep letting him...

Because he really wants both women - but he’s not gonna tell you that.

Yes!!!! He wants both. While his wife is in the dark, and you are waiting around, he will keep you both using whatever means he can. He will promise the moon and the stars. Promise it is real this time. And never follow through.

This same advice is giving to BSs, too. I had a DDay. I came to these boards. I have the same discussions. He swore he was done, he was a change man. The people insisted the signs were still there. I knew better. I knew him. This is different. Nope, they were all right. He wanted both of us and he was going to continue.

Now he has neither of us. I left him, and he hates his OW (allegedly, who knows what he is doing now, and she has no problems being a side piece).

June 5, 2019

It’s interesting you think of it as a timing issue to a certain extent. I think that’s true in this case as well- if the wife school thing were not a factor I think there is a good chance MM would have left several months ago. It’s interesting though because the communication we are having now is starting to feel like we are back in December at the beginning of our relationship - discussing things that allow us to get to know each other better/deeper as well as vulnerabilities- both platonic and non-platonic.

At that time he was not yet professing his love, although certainly his affection. That’s ramping back up in the same manner now and I’ll be interested to see where it goes in the next few days. I will call him on it directly if it doesn’t come out in discussion otherwise. I want to find out if this is just a different kind of compartmentalization or if he is behaving cyclically with all the caveats that come with that.

June 5, 2019

Well, it sounds like he has made his decision and he has been pulling back. But, it also sounds like he is testing the waters with you - to see if you will be amenable to your new role. So far, you have given him no indication that you will not be accepting of the role of OW... which means, he is likely to “ramp it back up,” assuming that you are aware that he has chosen to stay with his family and agreeable to the new terms.

June 5, 2019

It’s interesting you think of it as a timing issue to a certain extent. I think that’s true in this case as well- if the wife school thing were not a factor I think there is a good chance MM would have left several months ago. It’s interesting though because the communication we are having now is starting to feel like we are back in December at the beginning of our relationship - discussing things that allow us to get to know each other better/deeper as well as vulnerabilities- both platonic and non-platonic

If he would have left but for the school, he would do so now but he’s back pedalling. You miss my point about timing. It isn’t about him and his circumstances. It’s about how and when you take control.

June 5, 2019

If he would have left but for the school, he would do so now but he’s back pedalling. You miss my point about timing. It isn’t about him and his circumstances. It’s about how and when you take control.

Indeed. There will always be something - his wife needs to finish school, they have a holiday planned, his son is having a difficult time in school, and then Christmas... weeks turn into months, and months turn into years...

And if he does actually leave and set up house with you, you will live with the fear that he could go back to his family each and every day...

June 5, 2019

It's easy to imagine that you will have the momentum or money or courage to do something six months from now. That doesn't mean you will actually have any of those things. I'm sure he thought he would want to follow through once the circumstances were different, but then he decided he didn't.

I give him some credit for telling you outright that he was breaking up with you and focusing on his marriage. Most MM just keep moving the goal posts.

Imagine that you are setting a six month deadline for seeing where this affair goes. In six months if he's still not separated, you'll end it. That's all well and good to say now, but six months from now you might be even more invested, not less. In fact, you'll probably be a victim of the sunk cost fallacy by that point, and you will think, at this point I've spent over a year, what if I'm this close to him choosing me?

June 5, 2019

@ Bailey & SB2 - did you ever think that you would be quoting me and agreeing with me? I'm thinking no lol.

Asaysno, you are me a few months ago. Despite what anyone says, you find another rationalization for him, a different interpretation from the common wisdom, and there is a lot of it here. Just know, you didn't come to this forum because you think it will all work out honky dory. At the very least, subconsciously, you know it won't.

June 5, 2019

@ Bailey & SB2 - did you ever think that you would be quoting me and agreeing with me? I'm thinking no lol.

Lol. No.

Kat, for the record I always thought you were a smart, strong woman. That was why it was unbelievably frustrating to watch you dismiss advice, make excuses for your MM, and attempt to justify the unjustifiable. You have come a long way, and now you are paying it forward and attempting to help other woman which is AMAZING to see!! You are the voice of experience, the voice of wisdom. Your voice is important here and I’m glad you stayed.

Edited June 5, 2019 by BaileyB

June 5, 2019

Thank you for your kind words Bailey, now and your many words of wisdom previously.

They say that weaknesses are often no more than overdone strengths. One of my strengths is that I never give up and am loyal to a fault. That's also my greatest weakness because I think if I'm just a little stronger, a little more understanding and remain loyal, I will prevail. I did it with xH and most recently with xMM. I fought long after I should have been strong enough to walk away.

Asaysno, don't let your strengths become your weakness. Just think of what you are gaining: a man who has proven he can lie, cheat and manipulate. He avoids conflict and doesn't communicate. That was my xMM's problem in his marriage but he was always open and communicative with me, until he wasn't. For him to be different in a new relationship he would have to make a conscious effort to change his avoidance of conflict and learn to address his issues in a mature adult manner. That takes work and most likely therapy. Is he going to do it for you if he didn't for the woman he married? Not likely.

Yes, some men leave. I'd be willing to bet they aren't nearly as conflict avoidant and closed as ours are. Those that are conflict avoidant drag this out until one of the OW or BS finally have enough. Do you really want him by default?

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In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

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