Am I being overly sensitive or is my marriage in trouble?

[Beentheretoooften]

Trust but Verify

 

RONALD REAGAN.

It’s still play, but cut the cards.

I love it!

[spiritedaway2003]

I'm glad to read that you approached your wife. It actually sounded like good progress and productive conversation (and the fact that she didn't meet up with the other person seemed like she was being honest with you). Communication is important, and as I've learned, the breakdown of it is what often leads to breakdown of marriage.

 

I'm just curious, can you let the past go (whatever text that happened a year ago while you both were in your rocky relationship) and build from where you are now? Or is this something you can't let go and you'd want to pursue it still?

 

(I'm not at all saying it justifies it, but have you never flirted with any other women or found other women attraction during your marriage? If nothing happened, would you want your wife to question you on those?)

 

Or, were the issues that had led you both to think that (at one point) your marriage was on the rocks never resolved? Can those be worked through in therapy sessions, and are you willing to?

[warwick]

Yes, I can let these things go. I just want to have a basic understanding of boundaries and expectations so that when life gets a little hard it's not an excuse for checking out.

 

I'm in a crazy line of work that can be very lucrative but it can also go through tough periods. There's a sign that when things get stressful she tends to internalize it and take it personally. I just want this trend causal relationship understood, so it's less likely to be repeated.

[Marc878]

You should both get and read "Not Just Friends" by Glass

[warwick]

Yes, good suggestion. Someone else made this suggestion (maybe it was) the last time I went through something like this with my wife and I downloaded the book and didn’t read it. I’m reading it now. It’s very good.

 

There was no infidelity here as my wife has pointed out. This is an issue of boundaries, so she can live her life and I can live mine and we have clear expectations regarding boundaries and to avoid behavior that raises the perception of issues.

 

I just need to get her onboard with this.

 

Thank you!

[S2B]

Exactly. Unfortunately I think your assessment is an accurate one. I'm not trying to kid myself here. There's clearly a problem here. I'm just trying to balance myself a little bit so I stay reasonably positive and don't fly off the handle to give us the best chance to consider potential solutions. This doesn't mean that I won't ultimately fly off the handle or come to the decision that the marriage is too broken to save.

 

It looks like there was a year there where they weren't texting, but who knows what else was going on.

 

I do think that she reached a point around Feb of 2018 when she thought our marriage was over. Actually, I don't think this, she told me this. We had an argument after dinner and a few drinks and she, "**** you, i'm done with you." It was shocking to me at the time but quite clear. She later said that she didn't mean it, then later tried to change what she said, but I heard her clearly.

 

There's a good chance that she simply started acting as if the marriage was over. It certainly looks like most of this texting activity took place a year ago.

 

But one way or the either I need to address this. It's no way to live.

 

You keep saying the marriage was in a rough spot and she did these things.

 

What if the marriage was in a rough spot BECAUSE she was doing these things?

 

 

Did you do marriage counseling yet? How many sessions?

 

Your wife enjoys the company of men outside your marriage while keeping them a secret from you... WHY? And why don’t you get flaming mad that she does that?

 

Stop trying to woo her when she’s acting like a cheating wife!

 

We told you to look at that phone bill last April - why did you wait several months to look at important clues (free clues)?

 

You seem to want to close your eyes and think your wife is innocent. She’s not!

 

She pursues time with men who pay attention to her and hides things from you. She accuses you of cheating when she is being innappropriate. That’s mean!

 

Stop being nice when she’s been horrible.

 

And stop believing her when she’s been lying to you. Leaving out her truth is still lying.

 

She has no boundary - you can’t fix that for her and if she has no serious reason to change - she won’t!

 

But you’ve been a doormat. Stop that. Being a better husband doesn’t make a spouse cheat less.

 

Require that she become decent, honest, kind and loving to you - or just call it quits knowing she will never be capable.

 

I find it offensive she doesn’t stop to consider your feelings when she takes action with other men. She knows exactly what she’s doing. I think she had an affair with the guy she used to travel with. I also don’t believe her when she says she didn’t know that guy got divorced. It may not have been a glass of wine - people use code words, ya know?

 

Look for a burner phone too. You need to become more proactive. Consider a voice activated recorder too. You need more follow up to see if she is believable. Too many “innocent” holes in her stories/lies.

 

You do realize you can’t “make her” have a boundary, right? Some people never establish a healthy boundary - especially when there’s no consequences for their bad behavior.

 

You’ve been rewarding her bad behavior. Stop doing that. She needs to be knocked off that pedestal you have her on.

Edited July 12, 2019 by S2B

[warwick]

I've been more proactive than I've communicated, in some ways not in others.

 

I did look at her phone records last June/July when this issue first became apparent. I did not see any calls or texts with the former coworker that she met for drinks. I did check a tracking tool that we use for our kids and saw that she went to the place that they designated and was there for roughly 75 min, which was a public restaurant. I did not see any communication, email, text, phone calls, facebook messenger, ... after.

 

I did tell her she was lying about saying that she only learned that he was going through a divorce when she met him. She knew this beforehand b/c she told me at the time that she mentioned that he had been terminated.

 

I did confront her on the texts this past sunday with the other coworker from years ago, who I know had become a friend. She pulled out her ipad and read through the texts. I pointed out that she texted with him 9 times a year ago after 12:30am and she said she didn't recall what that was about and tried to pull up the texts but they were gone. I had already checked this and knew that the current ones were the only texts with this guy on her ipad and they were mostly about work ...a few about family, kids, but nothing intimate. He even stated in the text that it had been over a year since they had "chatted".

 

We are going to MC today and meeting with two different counselors. This is new for us ....or new this time around.

 

The situation is not good but we are at least discussing it. She's either clueless, self-centered and/or uncaring --- or some strange mix of the three. I'm sure that this will be a focus for our MC sessions.

 

I have brought up separation/divorce before and it rattles her.

 

Now we have to deal with this boundary issue. I didn't think it would be a problem. I thought it would be pretty cut and dry. Damn, i'm sorry, i understand how you would have felt about this. But this didn't really happen.

 

So, there are three options.

1. A big old lightning bolt of awareness and course correction, including clear rules of engagement going forward regarding boundaries.

2. No movement and we adopt the rules that she's defined and we are free to meet with former coworkers that are divorced, single, married, etc.

3. Separation and divorce.

 

I'm pretty clear about this. Now she needs to become aware of this.

 

Thanks for your comments and insights.

[warwick]

But to be clear, I agree that the situation sucks and is untenable and needs to be addressed - PERIOD!!

 

And I'm amazed and stunned that she hasn't been more responsive and understanding but this is why we're in this situation.

[TobyBoy]

Who initiated the texts? Were they legit work questions or “opening the door, let’s see where this leads” questions?

[S2B]

I think you need to establish what your healthy boundary is going to be moving forward.

 

For example... if you (and the counselor) need to constantly lead her by the nose to understand what is appropriate/inappropriate within the marriage to gain trust then it may be more useful to end it.

 

If she’s willing to change her approach by understanding that she has caused harm and mistrust to you and the marriage while proving she’s making changes for you to feel more comfortable about the way she participates - then that’s worth considering a great sign.

 

When she accused you of having an affair - that’s not cool - and a total offensive move by many cheaters - designed to put YOU on the defensive!

 

I’d want to look into why she did that cruel thing to you!

 

Let us know how the counseling goes.

 

Consider a voice activated recorder and that she may have a burner phone... she’s done some shady things for sure - and she’s not quick to own her behavior.

 

More than anything quit treating her like a princess. I think she got caught on some level and thinks she fooled you.

 

Why did you wait several months to start counseling?

[warwick]

I didn’t really wait to get MC, I was just crazy busy with work and getting the first sessions scheduled for both of us was challenging.

 

The first session was good. I think it made her stop and think about what she did - maybe for the first time. She changed a few of the facts when she told the story to suit her side. I don’t know why it’s taking me this long to realize that she’s a very capable liar. She’s just trying to twist the story a little bit, but I have the facts burned into my head and captured in images.

 

She kept saying that there was “no infertility” but she’s being forced to deal with the intentions and boundary issues. We’ll see how it plays out, but believe that we’re on the right track. Time will tell.

[S2B]

When is the next counseling appt? How often will you see the therapist?

 

No infertility... hmm, is that her not being capable of saying infidelity or does that mean she got pregnant by the OM?

 

Does she think you’re stupid? Did you correct her?

[warwick]

I meant to write “infidelity” ...she said “there was no infidlity”...that’s funny...Freudian typo.. I need to stop using google Swype on my phone.

 

Next session is tomorrow. 3 days after the first. Her choice. I didn’t want to go back so quickly but she really liked it. The counselor is sharp.

[S2B]

Have you asked her what her definition is of infidelity?

 

It’s possible she thinks being emotionally close to other men is fine while married.

 

It’s possible she thinks have sex is infidelity.

 

Have you explained to her in detail why you consider her actions inappropriate?

 

It can be exhausting trying to spoon feed anyone to realize they have hurt you.

 

Does she understand why she created conflict and mistrust?

[warwick]

We are getting into the issues of boundaries and emotional affairs now.

 

Regarding the comments of waiting to get into MC and treating her like a princess, these are valid points during this past year+. As I mentioned, I went through a bad period for a year or so with two accidents (biking and auto) that resulted in two separate concussions within six months and the recovery was tough. I was concerned that our marriage was over but just didn’t want it to end then. I was in a bad spot and I wasn’t that easy to get along with. My wife was very supportive and helpful for the most part, except for this incident or period of incidents.

 

There’s an indication that she thought our marriage was over also during this time. So during this period I let a number of things go.

 

Things have changed and I’m calling BS on stuff more than I did during this period. MC is really about reassessing and recalibration and working on communication and figuring out what we are going to do with our marriage.

[S2B]

While I agree somewhat with your description of marriage counseling I also believe it’s a place to resolve issues.

 

It’s usually about compromises and allowing a partner to understand why certain things aren’t working - and finding reaolutions to those issues.

 

But a partner needs to completely understand - at times - that the way they are participating harms the relationship.

 

And IF they don’t understand/admit those things - then nothing is likely to change.

 

Without change - things remain the same.

 

What did she agree to change?

[warwick]

She has agreed to go to counseling and appears very committed to the process. She was the one that committed us to return tomorrow, which is only 3 days after the first session.

 

Now she needs to agree to tell the truth in these sessions.

[S2B]

Call her out on her untruths/half truths every single time.

 

If she’s not willing to be honest then you have nothing to work with!

[warwick]

We're making good progress together. MC is already helping to open up the dialogue between us and talk through more of our issues.

 

Loveshack.org is a great forum, but you all hear my side of the story, which is biased by my own perspective. I'm not without fault here and I can be a bit of a dickhead sometimes in how I communicate, which my wife is pointing out.

 

...upward and onward !

[S2B]

While it’s useful you are becoming aware of being more kind - being a jerk doesn’t justify a spouse cheating (or at minimum acting as if she is intimately close to someone outside the marriage).

 

IF she wanted you to be less of a jerk she could have stated that... or maybe she did and you didn’t consider changing that?

[S2B]

What’s the counseling update? Any progress?

[warwick]

We've had two sessions with the MC so far. The first one we did together and discussed a range of issues and our marriage in general.

 

The second session we each had separate one-on-ones with the MC. I went second. The MC described an "abyss" between us, which didn't sound good. I explained this issue with the two different guys, one divorced and one married. I walked the MC through it and what I did and explained that there my wife explained that there is no relationship of any substance with either of these men and that I don't believe there was any sort of sexual relationship, but that the optics aren't good.

 

The MC gave me kudos for my "vigilance" and explained that there doesn't have to be a sexual relationship for it to be a problem and this is something that we should be talking exhaustively about outside of counseling. My wife clearly doesn't see these past issues as a real problem, which is part of the problem.

 

The third session is planned for next week in which the MC provides us an assessment of our marriage based on what she's learned and survey that we each take separately regarding our marriage. I expect to learn more about the "abyss" between us and what we need to be doing about it.

[S2B]

So if she doesn’t see the past “friendships” as a problem... how do you expect her to see anything close to that in the future as an issue?

 

I mean - recognizing the problem is 90% of the problem.

 

She’s not going to do anything different if she can’t even recognize the way she’s participating as problematic (for you at the very least).

[warwick]

I agree with your perspective on this.

 

I sat down with my wife last evening in the backyard over a glass of wine and we went through this whole thing, starting with the comment by our MC that we "should be talking exhaustively about this". It was a difficult conversation to get going but once we did it we got to a good place.

 

She was pissed that I didn't just come to her in the first place with my issues instead of going behind her back and reading her emails. I explained that the prior argument that we had where she essentially put our marriage on notice had put me in a different place and made me question whether she was starting to venture outside the marriage. She understood this.

 

I then explained that relationships can start and turn into something well before they become sexual, ie., emotional relationships. And this is something that needs to be understood by both of us and we should agree to certain boundaries and behaviors. I also discussed the texting situation.

 

She admitted that she was sorry for arranging this meeting with her former coworker without informing me first. And that going forward, this rule should apply to both of us.

 

I won't walk you through all the boring details of our conversation, but it was exhaustive and we got a good a place. She understands why I did what I did and apologized for not being more understanding and considerate. I told her that I was sorry for reading her emails, but that under the circumstances, would do it again -- despite not wanting to.

 

My big lesson here is to get us to sit down and talk through this stuff and the guidelines / boundary issues that are in play, but hopefully this won't be an issue going forward --- time will tell.

 

Thanks for your help.

[usa1ah]

I really hope you are right about it not being a physical affair. So easy for it to have been on a business trip together.

 

One guy found out his wife was with her boss that was 30 years older then her. He found a box of condoms in her suitcase, opened.